Wish I could put his pic up but I'd probably get banned
What time is it there? Must be late. Only 4.20 pm here . H on way home. I started on the merlot early after my encounter with OW3 so may be a firy night here
Nell: You gave your WH the gift of letting him try to R with you. That is enough. You don't need to feel any guilt with your kids. Do not feel guilt that belongs to WH!!
Strong: You are being so very strong. I agree, you may want to wait a bit to tell your older DS. If things aren't getting better between you and WH, it may be for the best to tell the kids.
Allgood, I understand what you mean about it just being in black and white, but I'll bet your WH doesn't fully realize that. I would still put the proviso in there anyway, even if he decides not to follow it. He is such an ass, he needs things in black and white to remind him of what is right! Sorry, it's my turn to be mad at your WH!
You know, I looked at the picture of your absolutely gorgeous children and wonder how the hell your WH could walk away from them without much of a fight!!
Dip, I was thinking about you, although I didn't post it You are quiet and don't complain, but I hope all is going well with you and that business you were trying to do that was getting you knee deep in alligators!
Hugs to the tribe.
You tower over her in more than height! You have class!!
wanted to tell Lisbeth... I mean Laura... EXCELLENT WORK on putting frumpy OW in her place. Go, girl!
I actually fell to bits when I got home. Was more stressful than I realised.
H was furious when he got home. Realised that OW was trying to intimidate me and was disgusted that she would do this while my aunt was dying. She really is a POS. How dare she?????
Now that I have faced the demon I know I will be OK next time. If she is there tomorrow I think I will be OK.
Problems now with the transplant. Oh dear! Life is too bloody hard at times! Shit!
LOve to all.
Thinking of you & your family during this time.
Strong - forget the slap take my baseball bat.
(((nell))) - take care of yourself - its so tough when we have little ones. 2 of mine dont like change either; its always in the back of my mind - the repurcussions of my decisions.I'm am moving so slowly on this I'm being passed by a train wreck
Laura: OW's actions at the hospital were despicable. I'm glad your H saw that and understands it that way too. And, I cannot BELIEVE how you handled the situation. That's just great. And amazing- I don't think I would be so calm. Maybe time to talk to the admin without giving too many details?
Honest - ok - maybe I'll put it in there anyway. And - he plans on seeing the kids all the time and since he usually picks up the kids from the sitter since he gets home from work about 2 hours before me, he probably will keep his word on that. He doesn't see this as walking away from his kids, tho he does see how things will be different with them and I know that bothers him. Why that doesn't lead him to take different action is beyond me, guess he's just not happy enough here.
I've done a pretty good job for the last few days in not getting emotional in front of H and not engaging him in any conversation of significance other than as pertains to our agreement. I have plans to go out in few days, maybe twice in one week (Gasp!) so hopefully that will help me keep my resolve - not that I have any choice - it's not like he's asking me to change my mind.
Ok. Big busy day again today. I wish you all well.
Just a thought.
I kinda hope WH goes to hell for this. He and OW can burn together down there.
You are in full anger mode. I understand it. They only way out is forgiveness. Some have the ability, some will not. It depends on you and your H’s ability to change. Change behaviors.
Your wanting to communicate is a huge step toward your own healing and strengthening your marriage. This very important factor in the success of your R and will make for a better life. I personally think this is the major reasons all marriage fail.
This too. After infidelity, you can have a good marriage, but the hurt at some level of intensity will always be present. If you take the position you are not going to forgive, you are unable to forgive, and you are going to punish your partner with this sin over and over, then yes, you do need to Divorce. I know after D, the past is placed behind you . You face different hurts, but the hurt if cheating somehow becomes displaced with the thrills of a new partner. I have no idea why that happens, but I know it does.
From this day forward…. If you R, it needs to be all about…
Your needs list really is about learning to change behaviors.
Changing behaviors is very, very hard and difficult. It happen slowly too. I know you ladies are afraid to ask you H to Retrouvaille. True, going takes time. You think your arrogant husband’s think they can fix their problems on their own. They think they can fix this but most cannot. They have issues and won’t change without help. Even I would not have changed without help. Retrouvaille is a very effective way to open the eyes, begin the new commitment, a new beginning to start the process of change.
I have been to IC. I have friends I vented. I tried on my own. IC is just ok. IC is so unstructured, not systematic. You go in and say, I need him to show me respect. I never left IC with a method that worked. EVER. I would be divorced right now if only IC.
With Retrouvaille Nell, you would get your answers, you could get your change and those feelings that come with change will help you feel all the needs you mention below. Retrouvaille is Therapy. Not only will your H change, you will change too. It will help you to also heal. It is about communications and the openness, the descriptions, the subjects lead to true intimacy. A question to be ask, a question to be answered.
Needs lists. (You asked for it!) I gave these one at a time during a two-month period. Latest list first.
This communication is so important so you can and your partner can change behaviors. Your H needs to know what to do in detail. What makes YOU feel special? How can he make YOU feel important and cherished? He knows what makes him feel all these things, but since his is not in your mind, how can he possible know what makes you feel?
I am going to start on this list with some new ideas. But it is up to you to expand. As you’ve given him these things over time, I really don’t know the details. But my suggestions are to re-evaluate and tell him specifics on what makes you “feel”… happy.
Ok, so you have a boundary. I am only going to be married to a man who makes me feel special, important and cherished. It is up to you Nell to make sure he understand ever bit of this boundary and behaves according. I never said it’s going to be easy. It is going to be ongoing the rest of your life. It will be up to you to control your communication. It will be up to Mr. Nell to give you what you need.
I will feel SPECIAL/IMPORTANT/CHERISHED* when Mr. Nell:
- Backs up loving words with actions
- Backs up…. With actions… I need non-verbal communications affirmations, service, and gifts. A simple rose, a letter or poem, surprise me with doing a task that is normally my responsibility. You just staring at me and grabbing my hand in a magical way. NELL GIVE HIM 10 examples! 20 examples
- Protects me
- Is gentle with my feelings
- Shows me that he finds me attractive, desirable, etc.
- Respects me
- Confides in me, trusts me
- Shows that he wants to spend time with me
Oh, Another boundary! I will only be with a partner who makes me feel safe.
With time and consistency, I will feel SAFE* when Mr. Nell:
- Protects me/our relationship
- Accepts and supports me
- Understands himself intimately** (example: sees an IC to delve deeper into his issues)
- Proves that he will keep his word
- Proves that he is trustworthy
- Creates healthy, respectful relationships** (examples: makes new male friends in healthy, stable, monogamous, long-term relationships and spends time with those men; cuts out of his life those who supported or encouraged his A)
- Guards himself and our marriage against toxic/dangerous people
Boundary I will only be with a partner who loves me with Quality time.
I will feel HEARD when Mr. Nell:
- Talks to me every day about my thoughts, feelings and activities/actions (I mentioned the solution above.. The love of Quality time! Spending everyday just talking.)
- Does not turn his back to me or walk away when I am upset or say something negative
- When I am feeling strong enough: listens to my thoughts, feelings and opinions without asking me to defend them; without arguing that I am wrong; and asks me questions to dig deeper into what I have revealed about myself. How is he supposed to know when you are strong? Yet you want him to not walk away when his not strong enough to discuss or face it?
- Listens carefully to what I say, and asks questions to make sure he understands
- Focuses on me when I talk. What? Just look at you?
- Asks me my opinion on things and listens to the complete answer. For me to feel like a true partner, I want to be included in decisions on major purchases, major choice in our children, and we both need the Love of Quality time to discuss all the events in our lives. When we do this, I feel good about myself. The combined choices and decisions is happiness the both agree.
- Responds to my pain by showing empathy to my feeling of pain
This following.. sounds like, I just want to be loved.
I will feel RESPONDED TO when Mr. Nell:
- Accepts, supports me and helps me with those things I tell him are important to me (without me having to pitch a fit first)
- Verbally appreciates my vulnerability and my actions to get closer to him when I reach out physically to him or share something personal with him
- Asks me questions and listens to the complete answers, then asks more questions until he is sure he understands exactly what I think/am saying
- Sets aside time to talk with me every day about what's happening in the world and with our acquaintances
- Sets aside time to talk to me about his day and asks me about my day
- When I have said I would like to talk about a topic, he either talks about it right away or thinks about it and brings up the topic later
- Provides, immediately and without making me fight for them, those things that I have said are important to me (within healthy boundaries)** (example: if I were to ask for access to his work e-mail, he would give me that access)
- Considers my opinions as important, as evidenced by his not seeking other people's opinions on the same topic before acknowledging the validity of mine** (he had quite a bit of issue with this, using the phrase "don't want to be railroaded")
Nell, Do you see what I am trying to do? Get more detailed about what it is you need and be specific. Maybe you do? maybe the list is general but to expect us guys to know exact is impossible. But it comes with discussion on the exact words, the exact actions, services, time, gifts, etc.
My W always thought I was suppose to know what to do... what kind of person doesn't know what to do, what to say, how to say it? I did.. but I didn't.
I realize you are in full anger mode. The explosion is about to happen. POP. FYI…This is when I physically hurt my wife.
Honestly, if you learned to dialogue like Retro teaches, it solves every one of your “needs” Above. All you do is ask a Q, then discuss. You both have to think before you answer, you both have to set a time aside, you both say it in a clear way in a way it is expressed in feelings. It always starts with something positive or prayer…
After reading this, I'm not sure if I made it more confusing?
[This message edited by trynhard at 9:11 AM, March 6th (Sunday)]
Laura - Feel like I kinda left you hangin' last night. DS17 came home early and I don't like to keep this page open when he's around. YOU are an incredibly strong woman and I can't tell you how good it made me feel to hear that your H was furious with OW!! I love this!! He's taking up for you!!Wow!! What a warm and loving feeling!
FWH does not feel anger towards OW in our sich. He just doesn't think about her. Compartmentalize much?? I have told him that it hurts me that he's not angry with this person that has done so much damage to our M and to me personally. But he is so shut down emotionally he can't bring himself to FEEL anger. I guess if he starts to FEEL anger at her he will have to FEEL anger towards himself. And he won't go there....even for me. That hurts. And that's what I'm walking away from....the continued hurt. It's not just the original betrayal (although that in itself is bad enough) but the continued minimizing, compartmentalization and his absence of emotion.
Forgiveness - This is an interesting thing for me. Maybe I just haven't gone through all the stages yet, but I can see how forgiveness will feel. I am starting to look at FWH with sadness instead of anger. He is so broken, but I don't feel any responsibility to fix him anymore. My IC tells me that because I have let myself feel the pain of what has happened, that I am better able to move forward. I feel sorry for FWH that he is still "stuck" in his compartmented, emotionless world. He sincerely feels like he is doing all he can to R, but he can't see that it has to come from within first. In his mind, it's still Strongish's problem. If she would only get over this we could be happy! So....I will be able to forgive him. I know I will when the time is right. I don't hate him and I pray that I can use the right words if/when the time comes to talk to our kids.
Allgood - Going out twice in one week!! You wild thing!
Nell - Hang in there honey. Even my years and years of Catholic upbringing allows me to tell you that you can let go of the guilt. YOU didn't cause the massive open wound in your M, but it will be up to you to do the surgery to repair it. That means that you have to really get to the bottom of the wound, clean it out before you can start to close it. (Can you tell I'm a nurse? ) You can't close a wound if you have left in all the broken, infected, loose pieces of yourself in it. Take a step back, take yourself OUT of the wound, and then it can begin to heal. That doesn't mean you won't hurt or feel anger, but it means that you are starting to heal yourself. Your kids will be looking to you for strength. You need to start to heal yourself so that you can be strong for them.
Hugs to the Tribe.
For example. This would be my list.
I need to feel safe.
- I fear you wanting a new partner when things are not total openness
- I fear you have another partner when you get defensive from you my seeing text, email. Open is safe.
- Telling me frequently that you are committed eliminate my fear.
- Affirmations each day with greeting kisses and hugs makes me feel safe, you are connected to me.
- Never lying no matter how big or small. Truth gives me safe feelings. Open may bring anger, but I will feel safe.
- A little lie makes me feel insecure.
- You hanging out with people that don’t value marriage makes me feel unsafe. This makes me feel you have the same values. I get fearful that you need seek another partner
- Your making decision on money without my input scares me. I want the security of money in my pockets.
- I fear and feel unsafe when I see Facebook women making forward comments.
- If you can text me with where you are at, going, that give me comfort.
- If you can call just to check on me, the kids, that makes me feel safe.
I need to be loved with service
- Taking care of the kids makes me feel less stress, uneasiness
- you cooking dinner a few times a week relieves my stress of work, relaxes me
- your doing laundry gives me relieves my need to spend time home working and gives me peace to think about happy things like my soap opera tv.
- Services and jobs that eliminate my working around the house shows me you care. Those feelings I have are so good, happiness, relief, relaxation.
I need to be touched
- Your wanting to see my body makes me feel attractive, desired.
- When you just hold my hand in the mall, I feel that touch as telling everyone that you are mine, and knowbody else.
- When you hug me, and hold me, that makes me feel like you truely care about me.
I need my self esteem boosted.
- If you can tell me how you feel about my body, my face, my smells
- If you can compliment me on things you think I do well
- I need my self esteem boosted everyday in some way.
- If you can do this without my asking for it, everyday.
I do agree with Iwant.. you cannot give him all at once. This is too much.
My W and I talk everyday after work over a glass of wine. We are over all the hard things. I admit we don't have the same issues today.
I might say, "why is Kenny asking a question about some sexual content on your Facebook, I felt a little uneasy about it." She tells me something that makes me feel safe.
Years ago, I wouldn't have said a word. Today, I think my telling her sends a message. I care about my relationship. I care other men may be after her. I care I don't want to lose it.
[This message edited by trynhard at 10:03 AM, March 6th (Sunday)]
laura: love love love so much about what happened, love that you held your head high, stared the bitch down and came out with your integrity intact
love that she showed she is a coward, a bitch and an idiot all at the same time
and super duper love that your fws (i thinks he has earned the "f") looked at her behavior for what it was and was disgusted by it and by her....he is growing up, at least when he is not playing with his fucking ducks..
still praying for your aunt, that her journey home is a peaceful one....for her as well as all of you..
strong: what can i say, you rock woman...everytime i read your posts i am in awe of your strength as well....considering the amount of time compared to amount of information,not to mention life circumstance (because life does not stop for us to get a time out) i am in awe of your strength...
us lta women are the bomb....everyone of you are the strongest women i have ever seen, compassionate, giving, loving and beautiful inside and out.....and you all rock in the mom dept too!!!
lta men...not forgetting you men either...thank you for showing us women what a real man looks like....and your compassion, well its huge and ever present and very much appreciated by us....
allgood: i too don't think he looks at it as walking away from his kids, i think he looks at it as inevitable because i don't think he could ever fathom you truly forgiving him for what he's done, mostly because if the sich was reversed he would not be able too....and thats even if he is really thinking about it which i think he isn't....i don't think he is actually facing whats coming from any perspective except what he has to do, the rest of the time i think he fills his head with busy work...like teachers do with the kids when they have nothing to give them....
uh, could i nominate pfm to be slapped too!!!
not sure what to do:
none of us really do...secret: we fake it for awhile..
seriously though, take your time, take in all the changes or non changes....make a list for yourself of what kind of a man you would like to be married to?..does he fill the bill?..i am thinkin probably not...but why?...what is he lacking in that you need?...require?..desire?....
that would be a start....
i don't remember who is reading the book too bad to stay too good to leave or something like that...i read it, and was amazed at almost every chapter the old pfm was too bad to stay, and new pfm got a few less chapters saying too bad to stay...but still way way enough to say too bad to stay.....
so for me it was a confirmation of what i had already decided!! but a great resourse, loved the way she broke it down...good reading...promise you might try it...
nell: i personally think that if you give him this huge list he will not "see" ...peeps when are on the chopping block, don't want to hear all they have to do...it makes it feel insurmountable....i also think your ws is more child-like in his approach to life.....and definitely in his approach to making it better.....add his own npd tendancy to it, and its a recipe for failure....i hate that your kids are little, but love it for you....much easier for little kids to adapt to change..i get the sense that mr nell has not clue about any of it, i dont think his ego will allow it to be.....he figures that if everything seems fine, in his marchmallow existance it will be...the ultimate fake it til you make it guy....and he cannot fathom why you would stand in the way of being happy....kind of taking the "do you want to be happy, or do you want to be right" to a different place...not realizing that the happy cannot come without the work he needs to do....he didn't just forget to call to say he was going to be late for dinner kind of offense....he needs to make amends by fixing what is broken within him towards you as well.....
i could be wrong....it would nt be the first time, and it wont be the last... and i really hope i am....because if i am not it does not bode well for reconillation unless of course you are willing to shut your eyes to all that happened and take everything NOW at face value and to stop digging for the treasure that may not be there....
purple: i can feel your anger....i hope you had a good run
ukgirl: check in hon....
sending out hugs to our members who lurk...thats right lurkers, i know you are there....and keep coming back, even if you don't have it in you to post...keep reading...its scary how many of us have so many damned similarities...so you are NOT ALONE...not one of us is alone, whatever one of us is feeling, another has walked those shoes....
I'm the one reading "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay." I have found it very, very helpful. I'm one of those people that needs a lot of reassurance and this book has been good for reassuring me that I'm not crazy and that the things that are bugging me about FWH are in fact, very, very real. What a revelation to see that when FWH poo-poos my feelings about something that that doesn't mean that I'm stupid, but rather that he is trying to maintain his power. (Can you tell that's what I read about last night?) If you're on the fence, it does help.
Back to the reassurance thing....the "stroking" I get from the Tribe has been like a lifeline at times. I get affirmation from you that it is okay for me to ask for more than FWH is giving. I NEED to hear those words, and I'm certainly not getting them from FWH. This "surviving infidelity" is an ugly business, isn't it?
Strongish- My young adult kids know all about the LTA and they have handled it well also.
Your kids may surprise you.
Allgood- Sending you hugs and support!
HUgs to all the LTAers.
For the rest of the tribe, I apologise... if tryn actually reads the thing he will be gone for days. Right, Laura?
I really appreciate all y'all for your support. I'm having a rather rough time of it at the moment.
"Yes I compare myself with them. I am honest, trustworthy, faithful and generous.
They are dishonest, not to be trusted, unfaithful (they all had Hs) and selfish."
I love this passage so and went to sleep with it. I thank you so much for it. I will go back to it again and again. Yeah, I compared them to the dog@#$%^ outside our window of our urban park.
"...who will one day wake up and realise they gave away their integrity."
Without hope I have nothing. I do have hope and fear that this will be true for them too. I really do. One of the OW cannot afford the therapy my WH went for. That does bother me. I also think she can't afford not to. She is separated and still under her BS's insurance. I would think she could find someone in a huge metro area with a sliding scale. It is weird how I even have empathy for the OW. Sickness all around us...
My diet has always been excellent. I know that I have to move more. The Y is a block and a half from us. I downloaded the pool schedule a month ago, got a terrible cold and then another one back to back, then my period and now this. I told him in the heat of the beginning that I was joining the Y and it was not because of this #$%^& but because it was for me. Me. Me. Me.
Been shopping and fussed over and that was really good.
I have a girl party tonite. Trading books and clothing. Laughing. I am so looking forward to it. Strong amazing women. One good friend I am going with knows and that will help. I haven't talked about it widespread and I am at peace with that. I don't want the Hillary Clinton this on me. I could not bear it.
He left today for business in SanDiego until Wednesday. Honestly, it feels kinda good to be here, quiet and along with the sun coming in and melting some snow outside. Being here, writing and reading all of you helps me. I look at the Sunday NYTimes and I know I will not wade through much of it. I have work this week, several projects, family, and so much else to fill my world while he is gone and while he is home. The opening for my work on Friday filled my cup and overwhelmed me with mindful, beautiful human beings. So utterly inspiring and humbling to be in their presence.
It is interesting. I don't feel like he did this because of me or us. I haven't taken ownership at all. I think I am pretty @#$%^& amazing! Honestly, I have always felt that from him too. We have always been president of each other's fan club. He has been there by my side so much over the years and that is what has been pulled from below me. The Truth is gone.
@Laura28 thanks for the 24/7 reach out.
@trynhard so good to read of you here! You have been amazing for me and I so appreciate you. The fear thing is definitely there that is for certain. I love the chart you sent and will print it out. I appreciate your visuals so much! Your metaphor of the tree I will take with me too. I have never been attracted to new and unblemished anything. I have always loved things and people with history. Elders. Old things. Ideas. History. That is where the truth is for me and I will seek that out and be mindful of it. I too have thought of A. I like sex. I like men. Both, quite a bit really. It can get boring with the same person. Nothing new there. But, I do know right and wrong and that is what has held me back. I appreciate your words and encouragement so much. I want R to work for you both. Your love for her sounds beautiful to me.
"After infidelity, you can have a good marriage, but the hurt at some level of intensity will always be present. If you take the position you are not going to forgive, you are unable to forgive, and you are going to punish your partner with this sin over and over, then yes, you do need to Divorce." So very true!!!!!!! Your messages to others are amazing too. So thankful that you are here.
Thanks so much for the welcome. I have done some journaling... maybe more. Not sure yet.
@strongish Good for you following the 180. Keep strong!!!
Whew! Now that I have written a book I am going to get up and get something healthy to eat. I will have two lovely overhard eggs. Toast with Maine blueberry jam and a grapefruit.
I will not forsake my spirit during this recovery and reconciliation.
Peace to all who enter this site.
You mean so much to me.
[This message edited by Henny at 2:00 PM, March 6th (Sunday)]
validation for us folk, especially those of us were sort of beaten down emotionally from our ws's it so so important at this time....its huge for me, gives me hope that i am not out of my mind, it gives me the stamina to continue with my thought processes, it gives me new food for thought, it opens me up for healing....
nell: that must be some list...
on the other side of that list nell, its wonderful that you know who you are, know what you need and know how you need to have your needs met...as for your ws...well, he is either going to take that bull by the horns or he will continue to do what he seems to do best....try to wash it over...do the minimum it seems that does not require much thought process...and that may be all he is capable of ....that may be the extent of the tools in that toolbox.....he either wants to fight for the marriage or he does not....you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink is what comes to mind....
and i know how fustrating it is when you know its all possible, every bit of it, if he would just open his damned eyes and "see"....but sometimes there is no fixing for blindness.....and i am so so sorry he continues to live in his marshmallow world....
i forget, he is in ic....cause he really needs a good one...and even that may not help as it is with pfm...he goes religiously to ic, and he seems to be stuck where he is....i see traces here and there of the old pfm, but for the most part the new one, who is also quite difficient seems to stay...and i guess that is something...cause the old one would be out like yesterday....there is not a chance in hell i would ever put up with any of the old pfm ever again...traces here and there is one thing...outright being him is quite another...
(((honest)))....honest is having a rough day (time) at the moment....sending you hugs today hon....lots of hugs...