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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Long Term Affair Part 23
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 6:52 AM, March 4th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

tryn...or I am married to someone who displays some narcissistic tendencies. I think he knows this... of everything I've ever said to him, the one thing that really sticks in his craw is the word "selfish." (And I have thrown out some doozies.) Unfortunately, the symptom stops him from treating the disease.

It's frustrating, and what you can read from me is utter frustration.

Fortunately, WH made a snarky comment last night and then met my "can we have an adult discussion about this" with anger and defensiveness and blameshifting, to which I eventually resopnded with name-calling and a melt-down (histrionics). WH then jumped into his Rescuer role and we're back on track. ETA: or rather, HE's back on track. I'm looking for my track.

Do I like being on the edge? HELL no. I hate it. I'm a nice, logical, even-keel kind of person.

honest,
I'm sorry you're sad/hurt, but I hope that you feel some peace after your introspection.

ats,
Good for you for calling in reinforcements for your walls. I hope you and your DS have a good time (or at least an interesting time). I'm guessing he gets a lot of petting and compliments, which is good for anyone!

ETA: Wrote this before coffee. Fixed it after coffee.

[This message edited by ImNellNow at 10:22 AM, March 4th (Friday)]


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 7:20 AM, March 4th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

reading tryn's list of the traits of narcissm....well i saw lots of pfm in that list, at least the original pfm...

and i would think that all lta'ers would have that selfish tendancy....to carry on with a lta imo takes an immensely arrogant person....an attitude of entitlement as well....justifying their behavior every step of the way....

they believed that they earned the right to cheat, believed that what we didn't know did'nt hurt us, not to mention that they believed that they would never be caught....

with few exceptions most of our ws's seemed to follow a very selfish pattern...some more then others....they are in this self induced fog that reeks of who they believe they are...

and even when the ws "sees" the behavior....i think because the depth of the betrayal is so so deep...they refuse to "see" it all for what it really is, refusings believe in the people they were during the entire time of their betrayals......or if not refusing then not seeing all of who they were with clear glasses and a mircroscope...

for it the microscope is refused to see all of it, it means we cannot be safe, it means they are not ready to face who they themselves are, or even were....and you cannot fix or change what you do not acknowldege...

acknowledge that there is an issue, then work on changing the dynamics to eliminate the issue or at least heal what is broken within....otherwise it stays broken and will end up irreparable....

ok enough of the psychobabbble of my mind....it could all be just that...babble....

have good day all....i am doing some retail therapy today.....


(((tribe)))

and much much love to those of you having lots of dips in the rollercoaster...


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 7:42 AM, March 4th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

****double post****

[This message edited by honesttoafault at 8:00 AM, March 4th (Friday)]


Posts: 1903 | Registered: Jan 2010
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 7:57 AM, March 4th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nell, Narcissism is the hardest thing to deal with. There is a NPD thread on "I Can Relate" that has a lot of good info (you may need to go to some of the older threads too)

The main problem with NPD is that they believe there is no problem, so they feel they don't need help. They don't go to IC.

Everyone has some healthy narcisistic traits. It helps us survive. There are many people who have these traits to a large degree and may not have the whole list to be "labeled" a "true" personality disorder, but are truly impossible to deal with. Some of them are called "high functioning".

The lack of empathy is the big indicator. I see in WH trying sometimes to understand. Now that I think of it, he is very intelligent and probably sometimes "sees" the signs that a person is suffering and might try to "intellectually" acknowledge they are in pain, but true empathy? I don't really think so.

Years ago, I thought he did. He is a good actor.

Nell, my IC and I have discussed my WH having NPD, or at least a lot of the traits. Also he exhibits a lot of BPD traits too. My IC says that there are many people who don't fall neatly in a category and may not have the full PA, but we have to deal with the symptoms and traits that we see and forget about the label. So, in other words, my WH could be a NPD with BPD traits OR a BPD with NPD traits with a little of ADD added in. As one poster said a long time in general, "Whatever it is, they are messed up!"

It makes us feel like WE are the ones that are crazy.

I think the attitude that the WS wants everything to go back to normal is going back to the way of life they ended up being comfortable with. They don't want to look inside themselves. It's scary in there. They don't want to admit there is something inherently wrong with them, it must be YOU!

My WH does superficial very well. Let's just get along fine, have a few laughs, good conversation, good sex, and not get too deep. He doesn't want to deal with feelings, or thoughts or true emotional intimacy and has made me feel all these years that I was "needy" or even depressed because I was sharing deep feelings with him. He just wanted me to act happy and chipper all the time. He would listen to me if I had a problem with someone else, but God forbid if the problem was something HE did!!!

Anyway, I realize I've been rambling......

Allgood, I hope you are doing ok today. Check in please.
Laura, I hope your aunt is doing better and your nephew is ok.
hugs to everyone

{{{{tribe}}}


Posts: 1903 | Registered: Jan 2010
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 8:23 AM, March 4th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Morning.
Checking in as instructed. Not that I've ever stayed away from this site for more than 24 hours over the past year or so anyway. Lol.

Spoke with H again about finances this morning. Left him a note detailing all of it, documenting everyone's expenses, etc so he can shake whatever delusion he might have as to me rolling around in money while he is homeless.

He seemed either ok or resigned this morning. I do not want him to hate me for all of this. Our youngest is 2. We will be in each other's lives for a very long time. I can't have ill will or hatred. It's not worth it.

So I'm willing to be flexible with him to an extent, but I will never put myself in a situation where I will be struggling so he can be more comfortable.

So, there, I've checked in.

[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 8:24 AM, March 4th (Friday)]


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 10:29 AM, March 4th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Allgood,
We will be in each other's lives for a very long time.

That's what is keeping me fishing when any normal person has long ago cut bait. If there's a chance that Mr. Nell can figure his shit out before he has worn me completely down, then my Boyos will have a better life. Fortunately, "HitGirl" packs Dramamine and has a stomach of steel and can handle the rollercoaster (sometimes better than other times...). She is, however, ready to jump off at a moment's notice.

Huh. Lapsed into third person there. Not sure how to fix it so am leaving it.

Hugs to the tribe.


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 11:02 AM, March 4th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

tryn,
Needs lists. (You asked for it!) I gave these one at a time during a two-month period. Latest list first.

I will feel SPECIAL/IMPORTANT/CHERISHED* when Mr. Nell:
- Backs up loving words with actions
- Protects me
- Is gentle with my feelings
- Shows me that he finds me attractive, desirable, etc.
- Respects me
- Confides in me, trusts me
- Shows that he wants to spend time with me

With time and consistency, I will feel SAFE* when Mr. Nell:
- Protects me/our relationship
- Accepts and supports me
- Understands himself intimately** (example: sees an IC to delve deeper into his issues)
- Proves that he will keep his word
- Proves that he is trustworthy
- Creates healthy, respectful relationships** (examples: makes new male friends in healthy, stable, monogamous, long-term relationships and spends time with those men; cuts out of his life those who supported or encouraged his A)
- Guards himself and our marriage against toxic/dangerous people

I will feel HEARD when Mr. Nell:
- Talks to me every day about my thoughts, feelings and activities/actions
- Does not turn his back to me or walk away when I am upset or say something negative
- When I am feeling strong enough: listens to my thoughts, feelings and opinions without asking me to defend them; without arguing that I am wrong; and asks me questions to dig deeper into what I have revealed about myself.
- Listens carefully to what I say, and asks questions to make sure he understands
- Focuses on me when I talk
- Asks me my opinion on things and listens to the complete answer
- Responds to my pain by showing empathy to my feeling of pain

I will feel RESPONDED TO when Mr. Nell:
- Accepts, supports me and helps me with those things I tell him are important to me (without me having to pitch a fit first)
- Verbally appreciates my vulnerability and my actions to get closer to him when I reach out physically to him or share something personal with him
- Asks me questions and listens to the complete answers, then asks more questions until he is sure he understands exactly what I think/am saying
- Sets aside time to talk with me every day about what's hapening in the world and with our acquaintances
- Sets aside time to talk to me about his day adn asks me about my day
- When I have said I would like to talk about a topic, he either talks about it right away or thinks about it and brings up the topic later
- Provides, immediately and without making me fight for them, those things that I have said are important to me (within healthy boundaries)** (example: if I were to ask for access to his work e-mail, he would give me that access)
- Considers my opinions as important, as evidenced by his not seeking other people's opinions on the same topic before acknowledging the validity of mine** (he had quite a bit of issue with this, using the phrase "don't want to be railroaded")

* Mr. Nell knows that I have a long list of examples if he doesn't know what these mean or how to achieve them. When I handed him the lists, I told him that I would be happy to answer any questions or clarify anything.
** Mr. Nell asked for clarification on these points.

I can give you the SAFE and SPECIAL, et al. examples, but there are many many many. (Ask Laura... she was gone for DAYS when I PMed them!) The HEARD and RESPONDED TO lists are complete.

Mr. Nell took the lists, put them in a folder, and put the folder somewhere. I have no reason to believe that he ever looked at them again. He has never referenced them.


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 11:35 AM, March 4th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nell, I just wanted to say that I thought your list shows how much thought and effort you put into it. I say thank you, because it pulls my thoughts from all over the place into an organized, concise form.
Even tho I have no use for it with my H, it helps reinforce that my needs were not unreasonable and were, to an extent, verbalized to him.
I think if I gave a list to him like that, he would've zoned out after the 1st paragraph. I also think he wouldve had a hard time understanding exactly what some of those things meant. It's just all too foreign to him and when combined with a certain amount of stubborness, is just something he cannot do.


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 11:45 AM, March 4th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks, Allgood.

The lists were supposed to clue him in to what I need (with the expected result that he would then, y'know, MEET SOME OF THEM). I did work on them... A LOT... and they are deeply meaningful to me. They would tell an interested person an awful lot about me.

Howevah.

You can lead an arsehole to knowledge but you can't make him think.


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
LookingforLove
♀ Member
Member # 12002
Default  Posted: 11:45 AM, March 4th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I cross-posted this in the D/S forum--I need major MOJO to get through today...

Today is our 22nd Wedding Anniv and I knew this day would be hard--the first year that we are not celebrating

It is also the 2nd anniversary of my FIL's death (he died on our 20th)--

I can see from checking the cell phone records that my WH and his 4 sisters have been texting back n forth...but I know it is about their father's death. They all know that it is our anniversary as one of the sisters sent flowers last year as she wanted to make sure that we concentrated on our anniversary and not her dad...

But that was last year..

I haven't talked with his sisters since September--since we decided to D. Since I told WH that all the bad things that were happening in his life was due to his A (God doesn't like UGLY)..
They know what's going on, his LTA but have not reached out to me as I know they didn't like what I said to him.
I guess Blood is thicker than water...

I also have an appt with an attorney today--wasn't planned, it had gotten re-scheduled for today...

I am meeting my BFF for drinks and dinner afterwards as I know that he will be with OW today and I don't want to go home anytime soon...

Today just sucks....

[This message edited by LookingforLove at 12:29 PM, March 4th (Friday)]


Me: BS
Him: WS LTA 6+ yrs
OW: Skank Company HO
Status:
Divorce filed 4-5-11
WH served on 4-6-11 with D papers and NC order.
Divorced: 4/20/12

Posts: 1114 | Registered: Sep 2006 | From: Washington State
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 11:48 AM, March 4th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

L4L,
Whatever decent mojo I gots, you can borrow.

Here's hoping that today turns into a celebration of your new and improved life! Begone, horrible foggy WH behavior! Time for L4L to roar!


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 12:13 PM, March 4th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(Looking for Love)
What doesnt kill us makes us stronger. And, you are still here.
Be well. You are in my thoughts.


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 1:54 PM, March 4th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I second what Allgood said.

Hugs to everyone.

Today I am trying to finish turning the (former) toyroom into a nicely staged and freshly painted bedroom.

This room was WH and I's bedroom the first 5 years we lived here. I'm taking it apart and making it generic for some other family all alone. It's harder emotionally than I expected to get ready to sell this house. I had such dreams for us when we moved in here and it's very hard to look around these walls and know that the life I lived in them was an evil lie. I will be so thankful to leave this place behind. And, frankly I feel like a petulant child for crying over having not gotten what i wanted. I worked hard for my little family. I poured my whole heart and soul into it. And it was all just a big fat joke to my "husband". In reality I'm undoing something that never existed anyway.

Last night, the ghost slammed the refridgerator door at me a couple of times while I was making the baby a bottle. I have no idea what's got his goat.

Yes, there is a ghost here. No, I'm not nuts. Ok, I'm certifiably nuts, but there really is a ghost here. Anyway, he's all pissed off about something. I just looked over and said "What's your problem, ghostie?" and he wandered off. No, you can't see him. Yes, he moves stuff etc. And I think babies and see him. And the dogs can DEFINITELY see him. And yes, he's a him. It took me about 3 years to figure that out. Don't ask how I know, I just do.


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 2:29 PM, March 4th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

m3,
Maybe ghostie is pissed off that you're leaving. It's hard to say "good-bye," even if followed by a heart-felt "good riddance."

XO - Nell


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 3:04 PM, March 4th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nell... Us guys, as you know think so different. Thank you for sharing your list again. I cannot tonight, but I want to help you make you needs so even an idiot can understand. See, For years and years, I was one of those idiots.

My wife would say some of the exact same things you wrote. I would think, wtf? I am doing those things. I hated to get the, "we need to talk speech".

Then we would talk and she would say things like... You need to "Respects me".. me, HUH? I do respect you.

You are not gentle with my feelings. And Me, "I am gentle with feelings." I'm thinking what does she want?

Anyway.. gonna go have some fun tonight... then wake up fresh with some new thoughts... new ideas... (if I don't have too much Vino.. then you get the stale stuff with cob webs)

This is why Retrou works. You can asked a Q. You get it answered with feelings described! Think about if you ask 50 Q's. You get 50 answers. It teaches you how to be intimate. The letters are designed for 15 minutes. But my W and I have had some of the most loving conversations resulting. That is why I say, I have a good M right now.

[This message edited by trynhard at 3:12 PM, March 4th (Friday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 3:09 PM, March 4th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi tryn. I was thinking of you when I was in Home Depot today. I know, weird. I was stomping in there to get stuff to fix the house up and going through the parking lot I was thinking "maybe I should just do it tryn's way. Do all those desireables and whatever ..." Then, I developed this weird stranger-bond with the worker there who was helping me find all the odds and ends I needed (female, never fear) and as I was talking about selling the house and where we are thinking about moving she did this double take and looked at me and said "you look SO happy! This is going to be a wonderful thing for you!" etc.

Ok, maybe I'm a weirdo, but somehow whenever a total stranger reaches out to me and manages to draw me out about stuff my overactive imagination keeps thinking it's God talking to me.

ETA -- you know, like Morgan Freeman serving fries in Evan Almighty?

Is that weird?

[This message edited by m334455 at 3:11 PM, March 4th (Friday)]


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 3:20 PM, March 4th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

m334455
Is that weird?

No, Maybe you were happy? Me, I think selling your house is a great idea. That can be such a boost in life. Yes stress.. but boost yes. An take your time buying a new one after you sell the old one.I rememeber wanting to sell my house. I told my W let's do it. Then I was going to fake her out and D her. Didn't happen.. lol.


Back to being desirable...

We get caught up in our everyday lives and we just get rude, mean and ugly.

Same with every M as time passes... We don't treat each other so well.

BTW.. Heck, I think of you guys all the time too. I'm glad we shared those pic's too. Your faces all come to my mind when I do think of you. I have deepP, M3, Nell, Allgood, nofun, ats, laura... I remember thinking DeepP was shock all ya'll women were such hotties.. lol

[This message edited by trynhard at 3:30 PM, March 4th (Friday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 3:32 PM, March 4th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

allgood: as for settling for less so that he can still retire early...i hope you reconsider this...first off, he is young...when he retires from being a cop he will i am sure get another job and if he gets another job that is not on the books...he will be making lots more money...or even if he does get a job on the books...he is young enough to accumulate another pension that you would not be able to touch....worry about you and your kids....you will need his support for 16 years minimum which trust a fellow mom...goes so damned fast....and then he will more then likely be off the hook for lots of child support....and your kids still have yet to pay for college...so if you must or feel bad put in their name for college but don't tell him....do not put his needs, desires or wants above those of you and your kids....his needs, wants and desires is what got you in this mess to begin with....

you play, you pay....and you are fortunate enough to be in a position to make this possible...so do it for those of us who will be screwed...

nell: i love the list, and even when tryn recomposes it to make it idiot proof....it won't matter if he is not ready or willing to be open to it.....and if he's passive aggressive, he will take it, say yes and then let it go like he did before....

yes he did a few items on the list....but he needs to them most if not all...and heres the important part...ALL THE TIME....not just when he wants to shut you up to move on....so he could be happy again....

i would come up with the ones that are necessary leave it at those first...asking for all of it at once may just be too overwhelming too....he is not used to do making it about anyone else other then himself...


ok i am feeling a little i don't know....bit of anger towards the idiots today...so sorry...


m3: i do believe in spirits, very much so....and if this spirit is pissed i agree with nell......

and i am sure your emotions regarding your home are mixed as they should be....because as much bad is as much good....you had your kids in that house, and brought them home there....


looking for love...i am sending you love, mojo and some karma mojo too....and remember to breathe, and always keep in mind that this too shall pass.....

all endings are beginnings in disguise.....try to look forward, reflect backward with reverence for a past that has brought so much and a future that is bright with promise if only you can be open and ready for it....

so take today for what it is, honor it and in the words of every ws there is...move on

((((looking))))


honest:

i think we need to play on mr dishonest's npd traits to your benefit...doesn't he want to be better then everyone else....what else do you need done in that house....a kitchen, a bathroom....new furniture in your bedroom....a new car that is great on gas....npd don't those peeps want to be better then others, have more, have better....to make them feel good....ooohhh...don't you want some jewelry....gold always goes up....

time to use the sucker for everything you can while you can....you run the show whilst he thinks he does....

it reminds me of a great line from my big fat greek wedding....something like the man is the head, and the woman is the neck and she could move the head any way she wants....

bbl

(((tribe)))


scrawny boy is in dc....i miss him...


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 4:36 PM, March 4th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If scrawny boy gets in trouble while he's here I'll go rescue him

Everyone have a good weekend!


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
Henny
♀ Member
Member # 31345
Default  Posted: 4:51 PM, March 4th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So I am a new BS - geez this is all awful.

I want to know how anyone has handled the "love" part. He told me that he loved both women. He tells me that he still loves them. He tells me he want me to grow old with and had made the decision to come clean by telling me and NC.
What has everyone done with the elephant in the room? The love part if it. Honestly, I know it would be easier if it was "just sex." He has WNS too and somehow that doesn't bother me as much. It is the sharing of the heart. He has my wedding ring. I gave it to him and said when you tell me that these women are out of your heart you can ask me to marry you again. That is how I feel. I can't live in a house, with a man, when other women are metaphorically following him around every day. They are with us when we are along together and it pains me deeply.
He thought in his delusions and theirs that we could some polyamouros $%^&*O.

My next dilemna. How do you not compare yourself with them even though I take no ownership of being a bad wife, too fat, etc. How can I get away from wondering if they were better sexually than me? How did any of you do it?


DDay Feb 26 2011
26 yrs M
11+ yrs of cheating
Two solid attachments
Working on R or so I thought.
False R 05.20.2011 and again in August. He moved out Mid Nov.
Have despair.
Don't want to be here.
Second separation and this may be it.

Posts: 104 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago
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