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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Long Term Affair Part 23
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 11:12 AM, March 3rd (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Well,
I attempted to have subsequent conversations with him and tried to be accommodating of his point of view, but his lack of respect or appreciation for what I was doing for him really just pushed me over the edge.

I spoke with his partner at length today because I really felt my H was not hearing what I was saying and to let him know that he might want to talk to my H that his attitude is only going to serve to make this worse. He actually has calmed me down quite a bit and I have decided, at his suggestion, to leave the agreement to the side for the next few days while I calm down. And, by this I mean that I will not talk to my H about the agreement, but I will be working on it nonetheless.

In a nutshell, partner says my H does want to work out the marriage but gets frustated when things seem good then go bad for a few days.
Boo hoo. Walk a mile in my shoes.


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 12:12 PM, March 3rd (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tryn

Thank you for the post.
Allgood -- kick him out. You know the law is on your side. Time for him to realize that OW was one expensive piece of ass. Too bad for him.


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 12:21 PM, March 3rd (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

m3...you know allgood is not ready to that just yet...just like you weren't...

allgood is exhausting every possible option to save her family....and i cant say i blame her...when it is all said and done in her time frame she will be able to say and feel that she did everything humanly possible and left not a single stone unturned and utilized every possible minute in trying to do just that...

but she is holding to her time frame....which she needs to do for her kids....her time frame is built to make this easier for her kids....


i had written this other post to you allgoodbut opted to delete.....i feel like you are beating a dead horse at this point in time, he has shut himself down and the more you push the more he seems to shut down and retreat into himself....so he fights with all he feels he can...so he picked on something easy...the pension...its not personal, its not him digging and seeing what he is really losing....and i find it all so so sad

i find him just as sad as pfm....and way too stupid to get out of his own way....

im sorry allgood,...i think for your own peace of mind i think stepping back a bit would be a good idea.....

it doesn't mean you stop persuing your course of action, just step back from him....180 his ass for your own....

[This message edited by iwantamiracle at 12:22 PM, March 3rd (Thursday)]


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 12:52 PM, March 3rd (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Fair enough, miracle, you're right. I just got really MAD about him bitching about his pension. he thinks it's HIS but it's the FAMILY's. Guess my pissed off for my friend + lawyer dander got up. Sigh.

NJgal -- yes. without a post-nup it is all marital. I did see a lawyer about this a few weeks ago.


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 1:06 PM, March 3rd (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I *heart* the 180. It's like aspirin for me... it's my go-to solution for everything WH-related.

That said, Allgood, I think you need to listen to Miracle and really practice it. (You're not... you're taking little Allgood timeouts and then giving the anti-180 -- would that be The Zero? -- another go.)

Meanwhile, I need to do the opposite, I guess... give The Zero another go. I've been 180-ing too long and it feels soooooo goooooooooood to just sink into Nell's world where WH's lies and defensiveness and minimizing and ignoring don't affect me much. I've given WH the chance to do something to fix his shit of his own volition and on his own timeline. He hasn't stepped up. Instead, he wants to play funtime happycouple.

< begin rant >
So now what? I'm tired. I'm tired and angry and frustrated and disppointed and broken down and hurt. Hurt hurt hurt hurt hurt. So I fucking suck it up and give him ANOTHER CHANCE to twist that fuck-you-and-your-needs knife in me just a little bit more. I fucking love this life. It's awesome. I'd like to thank the academy of fucktards and my husband, the fucktard class of 2009-2010 valedictorian who has never been there for me... thank you, honey. I would never have needed to become this strong without you!
< end rant >

tryn,
I'm not quite sure what else to do about the needs. I've given him my list. I've offered to talk about my list. I have lots of specific ways that he COULD meet my needs if he is unsure. He knows that I have a list of specific ways that he could meet my needs. I've given him SO MUCH and he's just taken it all and thanked me and acted on it for a few weeks if he feels like it and then... crickets.

I liked ats's advice the other day. And I'll talk to my IC tomorrow.

And then, assuming IC doesn't smack me upside the head and tell me to "snap out of it," I'll give it one more try. And if that doesn't work, frankly, I don't know if I have it in me to try any longer. If he fails, it may be his final fail. I cannot keep this up. I cannot live this life for 13 more years. It's just really way too much to ask of me. It's inhuman.

By the way, just realized that today is the six-month antiversary of DDay#2. Coincidence?


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 1:43 PM, March 3rd (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

nell:

take some deep deep breaths honey...

loved the rant btw and love the crickets thing...actually heard them inside my head..


so what is funtime happy couple look like?

what has been going on with you and mr nell?

and what on your list is he not exactly doing and not doing?

and has he done the basics, like nc, complete honesty now, answers your questions....

the biggest thing aside from being completely truthful with us about everything that a ws can do, is to get help for the issues that drove them away from the marriage to begin with....so with that being said is he in ic are you both in mc....

and if not, that would be the way to go, and if it isn't working with all that, and he is still not stepping up to where you need him to be...then it would be time to re-evaluate what you need, want and would be willing to live with or without as the case may be....


the 180 is not designed to give the ws a free pass, its designed to get your "you" back and do what YOU need to do for YOU....we should never conform to someone elses ideal unless it is our own ideal.....

the 180 helps you detach to be able to make decisions based on your needs, wants and desires....

its meant to put you in a place where you are no longer dealing with strife all the time or even a lot of the time....it is meant to give you a much needed time out...but i don't have to tell you all of this and then some...after all aren't you the 180 conductor...


(((nell)))


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 2:25 PM, March 3rd (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

No, he is not being completely honest. He is still hiding things that he would rather I not know. Specifically online porn use. Why? I don't know. Probably so he can avoid any possible conflict/having to compromise or change.

No, he is not in IC. Yes, we are in MC. He has announced that we no longer need MC because "it makes us focus on the negatives and we need to focus on the positives." Because he is such an expert of what "we" need. He needs IC. I cannot make him go or tell the truth once he's there or dig at his shit. I am in IC. Which is utterly ridiculous given our dynamic. But necessary for me.

NOTHING has been going on with me and Mr. Nell. He plays at being Mr. Good Husband and avoids anything that smells like he might be imperfect-ish-y.

Superfun happycouple is the only thing Mr. Nell is willing to do. We go out to lunch or dinner or whatever and chitchat. We do family activities and put on the smiley-face show. We go to movies, we go dancing, etc.

I have no reason to believe that he is still in contact with his AP. Though he maintains that NC is a gift for me and if he had his choice, he would and could "handle it" (when she tries to contact him) by having a conversation with her.

Needs he has met:
-Shows that he wants to spend time with me.
-Talks to me about my day and about his day.
-Asks questions about what I say until he thinks he understands (occasionally).
-Gives me an occasional compliment.
-Does not turn his back to me or walk away when I am upset and say something negative (occasionally, most often if I am in my own personal "pit of despair" when I say something and I don't say anything negative about him).

There are 27 pretty damn basic needs that he has in hand that remain unmet. They include confiding in me, protecting me/our relationship, proving that he is trustworthy, going to IC, creating healthy and respectful relationships with male friends in healthy and long-term monogamous relationships, showing empathy for my pain, talking about difficult topics either when I bring them up (he never brings them up) or by him bringing them up later if he wants some time to think about them...

He just wants to live in his marshmallow lollipop babytalk world where everyone loves him and we're one big happy family and lah-dee-dah-dee-doo.

I think I am at the end of my rope. Maybe not. There may be more rope there. I may just need to take a break. I am going to visit my family and friends at the end of this month, and that will be a welcome break for me.

I'm tired. I'm tired of hoping, I'm tired of thinking, I'm tired of doing, I'm tired of dealing with his shit because he won't.

It's been kind of a sucky... uh... year. And just... it gets to you, you know?


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 2:28 PM, March 3rd (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Where to start...

His partner actually asked me, several times in our conversation, what he could pass on to my H, was there anything he could do at thing point to save the marriage? I really couldn't think of anything that hadn't already been said.

The last straw for me really (although there wasn't much left after the Xmas party)was him leaving that damn note saying he knows it's over and just walking out the door. That was just cruel. I could have chalked it up to frustration/emotions, etc. but he was still waffling 2 days later as to whether he wanted to still work on the M or not.
Seriously, where am I supposed to go from there?

Anyway, I'm glad his partner got me all calmed down since we had the refi this afternoon. So, no blood was shed.

Miracle - you made some good points and M3- I love the anger- but where I am now is done and beyond done.
Nell - good point about me not really doing 180. I think his attitude this morning may have done the trick tho.

The issues regarding the agreement seem to be settled - but we will see. I felt like kicking him out so bad today, but there are the kids,who incidentally heard too much this morning before school, and if that doesn't subside, him staying til school lets out will not be an option.

And - in that regard - to be clear - I'm done. That he's still here is because of my kids and no other reason.
I'm basically on a need to know basis with him from here on out.

Gotta go to BJs now.

(O yea and M3- in my rage I did express the same sort of sentiment you expressed about the cost of his infidelity. It was a pretty low blow, but I got a chuckle out of it.)


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 2:41 PM, March 3rd (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((Allgood))),
Congratulations on your refi! Congratulations on your separation agreement. Congratulations on making decision and sticking to it.
I don't actually know if you need the 180... you may just start living it.


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 2:47 PM, March 3rd (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yep, that anger phase is not pretty at all. Getting back to “just” living life is not so easy.

Nell, Will you post your list again. People learn through repetition. You might need to send the list to him again.

Let us look at it again. We might be able to help you with round 2.

When we first meet someone we always do all those desirables I listed. Then, as we get to know each other, the un- desirables start to be exposed. With strong boundaries, then the struggle for power begins. Someone always compromises for the relationship to continue.

Nell, You’ve said he could be narcissistic. You’ve lived a life with this man, a Narcissistic. Was it the affair you now discover he is this? Was his mask that opaque?
- React to criticism with rage, shame, or humiliation
- Take advantage of other people to achieve his or her own goals
- Have excessive feelings of self-importance
- Exaggerate achievements and talents
- Be preoccupied with fantasies of success, power, beauty, intelligence, or ideal love
- Have unreasonable expectations of favorable treatment
- Need constant attention and admiration
- Disregard the feelings of others, and have little ability to feel empathy
- Have obsessive self-interest
- Pursue mainly selfish goals

I think before you go full into R, is your H narcissistic or not? Narcissistic people are near impossible to be with. You have to constantly give them the power to make them feel good. It’s like you need to be on the edge all the time with these people. I know some people need to be on the edge all the time. Is that you? That’s not me. To invest more time with someone like this may be futile unless you can give up power and take the, what I call, abuse.

[This message edited by trynhard at 2:50 PM, March 3rd (Thursday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 3:05 PM, March 3rd (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Allgood, I admire your strenght.

I once read where sometimes people won't change until the know the feelings of "END". Sure the cheater gave up a fantasy, but it is nothing compared to a betrayed spouse discovering. The shock, the pain, the hurt... our lived are turned upside down.

The cheater has not experienced the feelings of "END". Only after the end they know pain and begin a grief.

But by then, it is usually too late.


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 3:55 PM, March 3rd (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you for the support and encouragement all.

I appreciate it.

Nell, you are right. I'm not really "doing" the 180 now, I am living it.

It's just frustrating that I have to still do stuff with his extended family (there are a lot of these events - 2 this month that I can think of, plus Easter, May and June is probably going to be every other weekend) or risk being marked as the one who checked out of the marriage first - and since I have no plans on telling anyone else about my H's A, this would be the only facts they have to go on.

O - and Miracle - his rant about the pension - well, it was exactly as it appeared. He has no problem sharing his pension with me, it's the idea that 1) He can't retire in 2 years and afford to pay child support; and 2) He thinks I will have a windfall by collecting both 1/2 his monthly pension check and getting full child support, meaning I will have more than enough to live comfortably and he will not be able to make ends meed. (I understand the latter point and I would be willing to leave that door open if and when he does retire to restructure the support package, but I'm not giving it away now, that's for damn sure.)Anyway, I will run it past another attorney in my office to make sure I'm not doing something unbelievably stupid. If I can make things work financially, I don't need to complete F him, as it's more important to me that he and I have a good relationship given the ages of our kids.


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 3:57 PM, March 3rd (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Took a break to regain my composure. I really don't want to go over my needs lists AGAIN. It's just so damn depressing and I don't need any more depressing right now. Thanks tho.

As for your other point... narcissism...

Was it the affair you now discover he is this? Was his mask that opaque?

I knew he was selfish. I decided that I could take care of myself, and did. I made it work, sorta. I would explain it like this: He seems to have no awareness that there is anything beyond his external dermal layer. If it not happening to/about/within him, it does not exist or does not matter. If he is in some way involved, even distantly, then it is happening to him.
- React to criticism with rage, shame, or humiliation

defensiveness
- Take advantage of other people to achieve his or her own goals

Yes, but not necessarily purposefully.
- Have excessive feelings of self-importance

Hells to the yeah.
- Exaggerate achievements and talents

Hm. Exaggerate, no. Think that no one is as ______ as he is, yes.
- Be preoccupied with fantasies of success, power, beauty, intelligence, or ideal love

Ooooooooooh yeah.
- Have unreasonable expectations of favorable treatment

Yes.
- Need constant attention and admiration

As my 8-year-old would say, "Duh." I don't know if he needs it. He definitely likes it and it was one of his excuses for the A. But don't all of us like it? I don't know.
- Disregard the feelings of others, and have little ability to feel empathy

He doesn't seem to react to the words, "I am sad" accompanied by a few tears or a trembling lip. He does react to threats to commit suicide and/or temper tantrums. (Histrionics or Victim play.) For him, empathy = remembering how he has felt in a similar circumstance and reacting to that.
- Have obsessive self-interest

Obsessive? I don't know. He's very very very very self-focused.
- Pursue mainly selfish goals

Yep.

(Hey, look: Nell's back!)


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
strongish
♀ Member
Member # 29259
Default  Posted: 4:23 PM, March 3rd (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't have much time but this jumped out at me....

No, he is not being completely honest. He is still hiding things that he would rather I not know.
IMHO this is a HUGE red flag!! At this point Mr. Nell should be pathologically truthful!! Seriously. No waffling here. No secrets...ever!! By keeping things from you, even little things, he is making the decision for you about what you want/need/should hear about the man you are married to. He doesn't get to make that decision.

(((Allgood))) You are doing a magnificent job taking charge of your life and setting a great example for your kids of how important it is to work at a M, but also when it's time to end it.

(((Tribe)))


Posts: 490 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Texas
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 5:07 PM, March 3rd (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

...he is not being completely honest. He is still hiding things that he would rather I not know.

I think this is typical for most WSs. At best we learn enough details to understand the scope and depth of the affair, how the deceptions were arranged, but that is it. I think with the LTA especially there is a lot of information that seems important to us, but is just lost. With the LTA, meetings and sex were a part of their routine, nothing special, and some of the details are years old by the time the WS is willing to share.

--Ats


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 5:10 PM, March 3rd (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

allgood, I am just plain cynical, but is there any chance or value in Mr. nogood's partner becoming a witness against you as a part of the D process? I would hate for your discussions with him tryiing to smooth the process to be turned against you somehow.

but again, I am very cynical

--Ats


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 6:48 PM, March 3rd (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ats: Thanks for your concern. But while Mr. Nogood's partner did a good job of telling me things to make me feel better and calm down, I do not trust him to tell him anything of importance.

There's nothing to testify about in this case. It's very simple. The only thing I have to be careful about is putting too much pressure on my H to sign the agreement asap. I have to give him enough time to review it, get a lawyer, etc.


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 6:52 PM, March 3rd (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ats:

I am bringing ds15 to help ensure I do not take advantage of loose boundaries with her at this party. I find myself fantasizing about her, and I know that is not good

Totally missed this in my self-absorption today.
What is going on?


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 7:36 PM, March 3rd (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nell, sound like you have a narc as a H. I don't know how you do it.

I understand not needing to showing him the list because he already knows what he needs to do... in his own mind. See, he knows it all!

I can't even give you any advice on that.


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 11:03 PM, March 3rd (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm kinda lurking a bit today. Sad and hurt and trying to do some introspection.

Just wanted to let you know Nell, that you are in my thoughts.

Allgood, hugs to you and prayers for you. Keep venting here!! We love you!

Love to all of you

{{{{tribe}}}}


Posts: 1903 | Registered: Jan 2010
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