Apparently, I'm not ready to stop loving him. I love him, I've just come to the realization that isn't enough.
allgood, I want to offer you hope for your future. I think the key is having the time alone and away from your spouse. I think it is very hard to detach and become indifferent when the focus of your indifference is still in the house with you. Once you and Mr. noogood have physically separated I believe that your heart and mind will make the transition. You will not need to find a new man to affirm or care for you; you will blossom as your own person. I know that single parenthood is often difficult, I watched FWW do it, but people survive it and children do OK too.
You may recall that I moved out of the house last fall for a few weeks. The first week or two was very hard. Then, at about the end of the second week or beginning of the third it very suddenly became much easier. I had detached. I could go meet her at a football game to watch DS, be pleasant, and then leave for my apartment and feel fine. I was adapting to my new reality.
[This message edited by honesttoafault at 5:18 PM, March 1st (Tuesday)]
OMG Thank you!
Yes, that works for me!
I'm glad this made you smile!!!
Allgood - I have told FWH several times that I will probably always love him, but that doesn't mean I can stay married to him. He is the father of my children and we have had many, many good times together. I want to be able to stay friends with my FWH no matter what. We still have 3 really great kids and we will always be their parents. BUT...I deserve to be happy, as do you, and although I don't cry every day, I can feel myself pulling farther and farther away from FWH. It is probably easier for me as he is gone so much, but like ats said, once you are not seeing him everyday you will gain more self-confidence and peace. Hugs to you!
Ats- excellent post and advice.
Hugs to all.
Unfortunately, that is all too true. In a marriage and a family, it isn't enough.
Don't concern yourself if you love him or don't. You can't just turn off your feelings like a light switch. You have to do what you need to do for your own emotional health and sanity.
Strongish, you are sounding more and more strong every day. It is easier to detach when they aren't around.
Ats: great post.
Miracle, check in!!
About 1/2 hours ago, when the kids were out of range, I bring up the agreement. He tells me he didn't even look at it, which was no surprise to me because I don't believe he had even made it off the couch yet.
I told him some things about it, not dollars and sense, but general stuff, like if he wants to have a lawyer look at it, he should, I wouldn't be offended, etc.
No reaction at all.
Made me sad. I was disappointed he didn't seem sad or upset or anything. But, then again, he knew it was coming.
It's funny, but as I limit my interactions with him and try to distance myself from him, the more I notice the stuff I loved about him. Like, I saw him playing with our daughter and he was so affectionate and wonderful. It panged at my heart. But, when we were actively trying to R, all I seemed to notice were all the warning signs.
No feedback needed, just throwin it out there.
He is putting off looking at the reality. Almost like if he doesn't look at it, it isn't there.
Allgood, you need to do what you feel is best. But remember, you can always change your mind. Nothing is written in stone. If you need to take more time, you can. You are in charge now, not Mr. Allgood.
He says he's been thinking about this constantly and just because he doesn't walk around crying doesn't mean he's not upset.
I let it go at that.
I'm doing a pretty good job of reminding myself why it wouldn't work anyway and I will just have to keep reminding myself of that.
Fun: Please check in.
Last night H asked if I "liked" his letter. He is the one that started the conversation. He said he was not going to let me go without a fight. He said I was what makes him whole and if I left, a part of him would be missing. I was so shocked that he started this conversation, that I was ALMOST speachless!!
He told me that he is hurting because he feels like a terrible person. He doesn't feel good about himself. He's disgusted and ashamed at what he's done to me and his family.
I did bring up that maybe he should try meds. He's not an advocate of any kind of meds but I said if he felt they were not working, that he could just stop them but that he might be surprised at how good he would feel. He said he would consider talking to his doctor at his next appt in May.
Allgood - you asked about a time frame and all I can say is that I'm not going to stop preparing for my departure. I still have lots to do to get things in order, especially all the paperwork. I am also preparing a place to go. It will be 2 years this June from Dday. I'm just taking one day at a time for right now.
I am hopeful that my H will try the meds. My H has had issued his whole life, probably from FOO. I've had two doctors tell me and him that he needs meds. One doc was a friend of mine that knew H and the other was his former primary care physician which he never went back to see again. He was pissed off that the doc mentioned meds to him.
He was telling my office staff yesterday (another shocker)that he has a learning disability. He was tested about 10 years ago. He also has ADD. He said when he was a boy, he could not spell "THE". He said for the life of him, he just couldn't get it. His father would punish him, and hit him because he could not spell. That was the first time I heard that his father hit him. God knows what went on in that home. All I know is when his parents died (and they died 2 days apart). He never shed a tear and I was so happy I can't even tell you what a releif it was for me that I didn't have to deal with them anymore.
OK, I'll shut up now.
little too flippant a response
Your H is not crying because he is not hurt enough. Seeing so much hurt in a job might help him place evil things away in his brain. He can't have compassion in his job.
Can you imagine him seeing blood and guts of another human, then start crying because those people are in pain all the while the killer is running free. It takes training so you don't have compassion in those times.
There was a time I could not cry. I could not feel others pain. I was trained by my parents not to cry.
funny you mention crying...
I just wrote.. Popped right into my head.
I could not stop my secret cry.
Those thoughts of you, and another guy.
The broken promise, I asked God why.
An answer given, so I just believe it.
Forgiveness is what I do.
Forgotten, I cannot do.
I want that peace, inside I died.
It makes me want to cry
I do despise, that need to spy.
That caustic cure, I now lie.
I want to fly, just say goodbye.
With doubt I think, that dries my eyes.
[This message edited by trynhard at 7:34 AM, March 2nd (Wednesday)]
Tryn: I just want to make sure that you didn't misunderstand my earlier post - I thought MY response to you (about God being made at me - which was a joke) was too flippant. I didn't think YOUR response was flippant AT ALL.
Just wanted to make sure you knew that.
And, I loved the poem.
Got to go explain to a judge why my client can't seem to remember to pay child support now.
Fun, fun, fun & some more fun.
What you are doing now is about as hard as it gets in life. Not many people are strong like you.
I just think God has taken control of you and what you do is his fate. What happens, happens.
i am feeling somewhat better today at last....
i had a long ramblin post containing all of my mixed emotions and opted to delete it all....journalling without a record...
fun: why does your ws need meds?..issues i know he has, but meds will not do anything for that....
i love that he finally opening up to you, even if it ends up being too little too late....he is still the father of your kids, granted they are grown, but even then its a good thing if he really gets in touch with what he feels, as a parent its never really too late to mend fences...and if he makes the efforts with them it will be better for them...and i can speak of this because of my own relationship that i had with my dad....he died without ever giving me what i needed from him...i have made peace with it, but it took so much out of me to get there...and even now i still feel it, those pangs of regret for him....not for me, because there really wasn't anything for me to do, it was up to him...so hopefully this will be a start for your ws with your kids...
you are an amazing human being...you are so rational and i love that you are sorting it all out for yourself....and hate that you have to....you are finding a way to put your kids first, and you right up there as a priority as well...so keep it up
and yes when your ws is gone alot it is much much easier to detach, i find when pfm is out for the day i am happier, lighter...when he gets home its literally like someone just put weights on shoulders....and always on the ready for him to take being an asshole to another level....
ats: i am so proud of you, you have managed to keep your head about you amist so much turmoil and an ongoing sich with your wife, who i am quite proud of too btw....and your advice lately has been A+...
tryn: i liked your poem and considering that i do not like poetry that is saying something....
and i am far far from a rock, would like to have crawled under one in the last few days or at the very least hurled a few..
allgood: mr nogood (i like his newname too) is textbook teenager.....why cant these idiots grow up out of there teens before marriage and most certainly before kids...
mr nogoood is reminding me so much of manchild and pfm combined...not a good combo...and like them way way too stupid to see what is right in front of him...
i am sorry honey, i know it hurts and i know it makes you so mad because its so hard to understand why he doesn't fucking see what is right there....in his face complete with instructions...
ahhh, i got it, he doesn't do instructions either...i once got an ornament a few years ago back when i thought i was happily married for pfm and it said "real men don't use instructions"...because the man never did....instruction and directions....interchangeable actions...
honest: i caught that firefighter picture...that was your son wasn't it???
he was too hot, friends should not have children who are hot, its just wrong!!!
nell: i havenot checked out that post yet, i am familiar with floridaman, and i like him, he has worked hard and had developed some really cool insights....
as for mr nell....how long do you give him?..as long as you need to be able to say your done.....for each of us its different...for me i gave pfm 6 months....at the same token he still could have worked his ass off after that and actually stepped up seeing that we still live in the same house, but never did...he could never comply with my new boundaries...and i think that is what it comes down too, you need to set out your boundaries and your dealbreakers....and then you need to honor them way before he does....and unfortunately with dealbreakers it means calling it over....but look at njgal...she did just that and mr njgal came through and did everything and then some....
if the ws wants it, and they have to really want it, then they have to work their asses off to achieve it.....and learning to honor you the bs is at the top of that list...
i am sorry to hear about your aunt...its so weird, my great aunt has been in and out of the hospital, she is 96, and from one day to the next we are not sure if she will get better and go home or get worse and go home to god.....my mom has been visiting her everyday and has not been here...
i am glad to hear about the kidney transplant going well...
m3: i am glad that you are thinking and (pro)acting, and are mom and lawyer too....yup you sound like a superhero to me....
my pc is starting to act up, not sure if i will lose this post so i will go ahead and hit submit, not sure if i was done, thought i wanted to add more thoughts....so in the meantime
Allgood, I just want to say that lately you have been a great inspiration to me.
ATS -- you as well.
You two represent opposite ends of the spectrum of where we should be now, since our Ddays are so close and I'm ver impressed.
I do not feel worthy of being lauded by y'all as you've done lately. But thank you so much. I'm terribly behind at work, which has been a chronic problem for me for years now. I'm deeply ashamed of it but this book I'm reading about Boundaries is showing me why I do this and how to fix it.
Truthfully, I have a huge time management problem. I've never been good at it anyway -- but now my life is just too full.
But I am fixing it!
I really, genuinely analyzed my time -- I started with needs: work -- for food, shelter, clothing, transportation. Food -- cooking and buying food. Housework -- to keep clean clothes on us and keep this place reasonably clean. Exercise -- to keep my body healthy. Bathing -- yes, with 3 of my 4 children unable to bathe themselves yet, a full 2 HOURS of every or every other day is taken up by bathing!!! Caring for the kids, making sure Paddy's therapy gets done, and sleep.
I figured out that I really, truly do not have time for ANYTHING other than the very basic essentials -- other than a few hours on weekend afternoons. That's OK. The kids are a blessing and I enjoy them -- but it was very difficult for me to admit to myself that "just the basics" claim all my time for now.
I am looking into some solutions. I am hoping WH will bathe the kids and help with bedtime sometimes if I ask. I have hired a laundry service to keep me caught up (in our household we need to do a minimum of 21 loads of laundry a week. It sounds like too much, but it's only 3 loads per person!
Also, we are selling this house, which is time consuming to ready for. WH expects me to do everything to get that ready by yesterday. So, I get to practice my new boundary setting on that.
I actually do 95% of everything around here. If one person refuses to do, than either the other must do or it doesn't get done. Well, many things must get done despite his refusal because of the children. So I do them. I resent it but he doesn't care. I think the entire fundamental theme of my marriage is he doesn't care.
I've been doing some other proactive things as well. But mostly, I've learned that if it isn't an essential task to care for myself or the children or my job -- there is no time to get it done. So be it. Anyone who expects more from me under the circumstances is just bossy or unrealistic.
Also, J came to help me pack on Monday afternoon and she really taught me something about follow-through, which I've always been terrible at. After we packed each and every box she insisted one of us take it to the storage POD. She said the job is not finished just because it's packed and we'd feel better the more things that were out of each room. She was very right. I have a terrible habit of starting cases and not finishing the write up on them until the last minute (which is why I'm chronically behind) and now I have this HUGE visual and memory of taking the box out of the room. I'm using this to visualize completing tasks in everything I do.
I hired a divorce attorney to tell me the difference between a post-nup and a divorce in my state. I'm very fortunate; I can accomplish a dissolution of most marital rights by contract in my state and it's completely enforceable. That is excellent. I have also decided to see a family therapist. I will see her weekly and use her as a sounding board/advice source for dealing with my children and running the household. The Pasha, in particular, is very difficult to discipline. He's been tough stuff since day one. When he was born, he started crying as soon as his head emerged, with the rest of his body still in the birth canal for two more contractions. I've never heard of that anywhere.
Anyway, I hope these things will help me, but any and all advice is much appreciated. I think working backwards with my time management is going to provide me with an excellent solution. It was very eye-opening to put my "essentials" into a schedule and discover that there aren't ANY other hours in the day left unless I sleep too little. Wow.
And follow through. A huge one for me. I think I need to devise a reward system for myself for follow through. Something above and beyond the inherent reward of getting rid of the constant stress being behind causes.
And the move -- we will be about 35 or 40 miles away. I have arranged my job so I only have to come into the office 1 or 2 days a month. WH will commute more. We will be closer to both of our extended families, in an area where the cost of living is 1/2 of what it is here. We will be buying a house that costs about 1/3 of what our current house costs. Hopefully, we will eliminate our debt and pay that house off in 3 to 5 years, at which point WH is going to quit his job and find something less stressful close to where we will be living.
I see this as huge. What do you see? WH doesn't care about debt but I want to be debt free. I want more family support. I will be able to work only part time within a short while. I still think more hard things need to be addressed, but to agree to a lifestyle reduction, an increased commute, financial discipline, to make a workable plan to leave the job he started a few months before he resumed this A -- I think it is a very tangible demonstration that he's willing to and working at leaving that old life behind.
I don't know, am I romanticizing it?
Whatever is going on with you, I hope you are able to find some time for peace.
I haven't been able to write poetry since high school, and that was horrible horrible stuff... I believe at one point I rhymed "things you do" with "rendezvous." (The whole thing was my own personal bottom-of-the-barrel, truly the worst kind of tripe, but I'm glad I saved it because it's hilarious!) I am so envious of those of you who can put pen to paper in verse. I just can't... don't have it in me. Love reading it, though.
I can't wait for the day when you are able to see Mr. Nogood's actions and have them not affect you emotionally. I think it will happen quickly once you've made your break, and I think it will be such a relief for you. (Or, if I were to be less wordy: Ditto what ats said.)
hubba hubba to the pic!
nofun and strongish,
You both sound like you're in good, strong places right now. Kudos to you!
back to Miracle,
i think that is what it comes down to, you need to set out your boundaries and your dealbreakers....and then you need to honor them way before he does....and unfortunately with dealbreakers it means calling it over...
You said something to me a while ago but I'm too lazy to go back and look at it, so I'm just giving you a shout-out.
Laura, hello! Hope everyone is doing well today.
Hugs all around.
m3: i do not see romantics in your post, i see a woman who has a multitude of life, mixed in with some issues and a raw deal with some of those issues....
i see you looking at all your options, i see you trying to make them all better....
i see you making plans for either way it goes, which is smart
keep looking for everything you need for you and your kids....especially without mrm3....i fear that the man will not step up the way you would hope, so better to be prepared for it....and set yourself up so that if he still chooses a self destructive path you are no longer being mowed over by it
do not give an ulitmatum unless you are ready for the follow through....its up to you on what you feel you can and will do....and you have children to consider, so making sure about what youwant before you do it i would say needs to be....
and only you can decide with what you are willing to live with, and if you choose to settle....i personally don't think anyone should ever settle, i know i did and its cost me what i thought was a happy marriage, i married him knowing i was settling for not being his #1 priority....i never in my wildest dreams thought that there would ow that would be there and preceed me nevertheless, but i settled for man who did not love me the way i so deserved....i loved him with everything i had so i don't regret it, but yet if i could do it over, i now know better and i would not settle...
ok gots to run now....
Do I say, "do it or I'm leaving" or do I say, "I really need you to do this to strengthen our M," and leave off the D talk?
I would not say "do this or I am leaving", or "I am leaving if you do this". I came to the realization that I would not recognize a deal-breaker until after it happened. Before dday an A would have been a deal-breaker. After dday the omissions and lying of TT would have been a deal-breaker. Failing to follow mutually agreed to boundaries when she was out of town last September was a deal-breaker, and she was a bit shocked when I picked her up at the airport, dropped her off at the house, and left.
We have always worn the separation and divorce ruby slippers; we just did not realize it. At anytime we are free, without explanation, to say it is not working for me. Our FWS has the same right and ability. I do not believe it is helpful, or possible to predict at what point this threshold will be breached. I do know that I will never again be in the M regardless, no matter what. She redeemed that card on dday, and it is no longer valid. Since dday, my M requires an ongoing renewal of commitment. I will not leave in a knee-jerk reaction to any event, but I retain the right to leave whenever I decide it is no longer meeting MY needs.
Besides, saying do this or I leave sets the bar for the FWS at the minimum level. Saying I will not stay if my needs are not met may result in a truly repentant spouse exceeding expectations.
Besides, saying do this or I leave sets the bar for the FWS at the minimum level.
The second point is that I'm pretty certain that FWH wants a "checklist" of what he needs to do to R so that he can check off the to-do list and then if I'm still not happy he can wash his hands of any responsibility of the break-up of our M. He wants me to be the bad guy. He wants me to TELL him not to go on out-of-town trips, then he asks me how WE are going to make up that loss of income.
I could go on, but basically I agree with ats. I do have my minimums, and I have told FWH that because he ended the LTA before I ever found out anything, I have been "gracious" enough to give him a chance to R. He doesn't see it that way though. He says that he made a "mistake" (just one mind you) and he hopes that I will forgive him. He is NC, at my request he has stopped flying to the city where OW lives and where the LTA took place, he has bought me flowers several times, brought chocolates home from trips, attends MC and has restarted IC...but I have told him that at the end of the day it still is not working for me. Just as ats said. I don't need any other reason.
I am working to be brutally honest with myself about what I want from the rest of my life. While I really, really hope that I will find a man that is crazy about me, to share my life with, I think that I need to be prepared to be alone if that's the way things work out. I may or may not find someone else, but I know that I don't want to stay with FWH. It's amazing how much calmer I have been in the past week since I have admitted that to myself. There will be many sad times to come, and again, I'm not ruling anything out, but for right now this is how I feel.