M - thank you for the Paddy update - your story is inspirational & keeps me grounded.
Fun: I cannot believe he wrote you a three page letter. That's pretty remarkable. HE must know you are serious and he seriously doesn't want to lose you. That his 3 pages of words don't affect you, well, that's not good. Maybe just too little, too late,or like you said, he needs meds. (Is this a depression like thing post DDay? or is this more of something he's always had?) So, how much time are you giving him to address the things in your letter? And, beware - this is what set me off in a big damn way - that I could basically write a check list for my H, listen to him tell me he loves me, yet he does almost nothing I ask. I really became very impatient with him very quickly, because if it was me (unfair comparison, I realize), I would finish the checklist asap. So, maybe give it some thought and let him know how much time he has. Some of these marshmallow lollipop baby-talkers need a firm deadline.
I just dont understand. I have met the most incredible group of beautiful, loving , caring & intelligent woman a man could ever meet here on LTA
Let me shed a little light on the situation (and I can only speak for myself), but (I can also be a pretty big bitch.) Shhhh..... (don't tell anyone.)
Also, I have very limited domestic skills.
Allgood, I'm so sorry that things coming to a head brought zero reaction on Mr. Nogood's part.
Laura, good news on the kidney transplant! Sorry to hear about your aunt... does Australia have a hospice program?
m3, I'll try to think of some more jokes.
dp, While I'm perfect, humans in general are not so much.
I started a post yesterday but then trashed it, as I was not sure the message. After nofun's post yesterday and today, I think I will try it again.
The WS's who do not leave us BS do want it to "work out". As nofun so elegantly put it :
He said he wants his family, he wants me, he loves me, blah blah
If the FWS did not want the relationship, they would have left. The problem is not what they want, but how hard they are willing to work at achieving what they want. Heck, I want to be rich, but the extent of my effort towards this is buying some Lottery tickets. The fact is I am comfortable with what I have, and the potential rewards (riches beyond dreams of Avarice) versus the effort and my perceived probability of pay-off do not balance out for me. Therefore, I stay in my comfy job earning a modest wage and keeping hoping that someday a machine will pick the right 7 numbers for me. In reality, losing my job would probably give me the opportunity to pursue riches because I would have nothing more to lose.
The FWS is similar in wanting an outcome of staying together in the M after their A, but being reluctant (or unable) to do the work and make the changes for that outcome to occur. Misters (really)nofun, nogood, dishonest, l223344, and pfm all claim to want the relationship with their BS, they want to move on, but their level of effort to that end is not much more than my purchasing Lottery tickets. It might be enough to have the WS apologize and refocus more on the family and then move on after a ONS, or maybe a brief 3 month “fling”, , but not after the LTA. For me, the ability to sustain and the need for the LTA documents a serious disconnect inside that the WS must address in order for him or her to actively participate in a healthy relationship with the BS. Mr. njgal, Ms Ats, and Mrs. Tryn have or are making that effort. Mr. njgal got sober, attended a whole bunch of IC, MC, and AA, and made an effort to make amends. Mrs. Tryn did Retroville, IC and MC, quit a good job, and changed for the better how she communicates and interacts with Tryn. Ms Ats is doing the IC and MC, her books on Toxic Shame and Sexual Abuse look like well-worn textbooks with all the highlighting and notes in the margins. She is rewiring how she perceives the world, and how she relates to me. These FWS are each doing (did) the work, and are taking (took) the risk that this effort might not save the M, but they at some point knew they needed to fix themselves regardless.
The poor bastard just doesn't know how to express himself. …<snip>… He has serious emotional issues and he needs meds.
How do I talk this man into seeing a doctor?
You don't. To do so would be to take on the role of his Mother. If he really wants to save his relationship with you, and has the strength of character to do so HE will seek out help. He will go to a MD, Pastor, or IC asking for help, or at the very least find some books to read and work at techniques. He must do this himself to be of value. If he asks you for advice, or what to do, you can tell him what you think would help, what you would do in his situation, but you cannot effectively make him do anything or tell him how to fix himself.
allgood, last night while FWW and I were talking she again mentioned how she had to take care of herself growing up because of her FOO issue, and how this resulted in her not trusting people. This is the root of her intimacy issues. I thought of Mr. nogood, and how you have said he was very independent as a child and wondered if there are some similar dynamics at work within him?
Laura and M334455, Thank you for the good news from your fronts, best wishes.
Last night was a special night with FWW reaching out to connect with me and us talking. She is struggling, and midway between who she was and figuring out who she is/wants to be. She started crying when she told me how she feels when she thinks of being with the OM. We talked about the different dynamics and feelings in her relationships with the different OM. She explained to me when she cuts and why it helps to soothe her. We talked about our mutual fears for our relationship, and the joys we have had. She also shared some new insights into her relationships with other family members.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 8:05 AM, March 1st (Tuesday)]
deeppurple... The abortion. Your w must be in some deep deep pain. Her shame might be beyond what she hides. These are likely her feelings.
Discomfort with children, feelings of low self-worth, guilt, feelings of anger, depression, grief, increased alcohol use, crying, inability to communicate and feeling suicidal.
You need keep forging ahead to make that choice for yourself. Your wife is not going to be healthy for a long time. Your misery will continue for just as long. Do you really want that?
ats... It is amazing what your wife is doing. My wife does not have near the courage yours does. Good luck.
Nofun and allgood... Keep moving forward!
Iwant.. you are a rock. I hope you feel better today.
[This message edited by trynhard at 9:09 AM, March 1st (Tuesday)]
I think MrAllgood and MrM3 just want to take a time-out rather than fundamentally change. Ha.
I have to go get the Pasha in a second from preschool, but I did want to weigh in and say "hi". And also respond to DP --
6 YEARS of therapy, a bipolar diagnosis and 100% unwavering compliance with my medication.
Yeah, I came out of the box not too different from MrM3...but someone had to parent these little monkeys.
Deep: Your WW is a very troubled person. It must be very hard knowing that she had the abortion, and she might be pregnant again?? This is ridiculous. Is she a teenage girl who doesn't understand a thing about birth control?
You, like me, are killing ourselves by staying in a toxic relationship. My IC just told me that I have 2 choices a) to accept things as they are and not expect anything in terms of a true relationship from WH b) to start living for myself because I deserve so much better. To get rid of him.
I'm like a crazy person who keeps doing the same thing expecting different results. Deep, I've stayed hoping for change. I get drawn in, and then get hurt all over again. The cycle keeps repeating. WH is not going to change. I have to.
Tryn, it's good to see you. I liked your post about gratitude and how things are going well for you.
Ats: I really liked your post and the comparison to the Lottery tickets. I can see from what you are saying that you have really worked on co-dependency issues. I am working on that also. I find it's pervasive in my life also. You put it well about Mrs. Ats having to "rewire" her thinking. That is so true. We are so used to doing things a certain way, it's hard to do things differently. It's almost like the middle part in my hair that insists on staying that way, although I've been trying to part it on the side. It's ingrained.
Nell, stay just the way you are. You don't have to say jokes, you are very witty and smart and have a wonderful way with words.
Allgood, you are NOT a bitch!! You are assertive and not letting anyone walk all over you!!
M3: I picked up the "Boundaries" book. Thank you for the recommendation. I will get to it after I reread "Codependent No More". Talk about rewiring one's brain and ways of acting.
Miracle: I hope you are feeling better today. We are here for you.
For me, I have to make the changes within myself. I've been focusing on a little ember of hope for so very long. WH gives more fuel to it and it starts to grow and I keep focusin on that and "feel" happier. But then he comes along and pisses on it to make it go out and blames me for it. I am about to go away, but still see the ember glowing and focus again on it instead of the whole wide world around me.
But as Ats said, the wiring is there and I have to reroute it. I wish I could purge it completely.
In Co-dependent No More, Beattie discusses: "Love thy neighbor as thyself". God does expect us to love ourselves. That is not being selfish. So often we are NOT loving ourselves at all or enough. We have to take care of ouselves and not do for others. We can guide them and aide them, but we cannot change them or "make" them do anything. We cannot do for them.
Ok, ramble over. Just trying to focus myself on what I need to do, not what I want to do. <sigh>
I like that my H is now being referred to as "nogood".
That cracks me up.
Ats: loved the analogy and I am soooo glad your wife is "getting it". I'm so happy for you.
I'm trying to distract myself from my troubles with the marital problems of others here at work. (Sigh). I really just cannot wrap my head around my H's thinking. It is just so illogical. He wants the end goal without any of the work. That he claims to love his children more than life itself, yet is unwilling to do the simple shit I asked him to do to keep the family intact, is remarkable, especially as I know he is dreading telling the kids as much as I am.
O well. Like M3 said, I can only control myself.
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 11:01 AM, March 1st (Tuesday)]
At the same time, I had posted my "how do I go about setting a deadline for WH to finish his MC homework, read the infidelity books and do IC to figure out his bent pieces" and got a very well-thought out response from floridaredman, who I must say I respect.
It ain't lookin' good, people. I fear I'm on the heels of Allgood and nofun. Mr. Nell is going to have to experience a serious come-to-Jesus moment, smack rock-bottom fast and hard and then bounce back up like a rubber band. I doubt very much whether that will happen. My consequence to him not doing the hard stuff (at least the consequence right now) is "fuck you, then; I'm done."
Meanwhile, I am no longer jealous of those whose WSs are stepping up/have stepped up and have done the hard work. I am truly happy for you.
That wasn't a good-bye rant, I've just turned a corner without noticing it and am writing about it here.
Oh, and I have IC on Friday. We're supposed to be deciding whether I want to be a participant in this marriage or not. May be a short conversation. Or not. I'm not forgetting about the rollercoaster. I just seem not very rollercoastery. I'm feeling a sense of acceptance, I think.
Other than my FMIL has stopped doing his laundry. She said it was a revelation to him that clean clothes just don't end up on the hangers in the closet. Apparently he ran out of clean shirts, and asked her where his clothes were.
I think my FMIL is really enjoying the little parts of the 180 that she's doing.
I hope you & your H find your way out of this. I like the idea of being a trendsetter, but not like this.
I'm giving my H the agreement tonight, but really there should be no surprises in there as I had already told him the terms. Maybe he will be a bit taken aback by the size of it. (I am now chuckling because I'm wondering if he is going to read this at the same pace as Not Just Friends or something slower - I mean the agreement, while thrilling in some places, is otherwise pretty dry reading.)
At the same time I'm going to ask him to spend every day of the next 2 weeks thinking about how that day will be different once he moves out.
I've been fighting the urge to call him, but I'm resolved not to do it, as I know it will only aggravate me further. I was feeling frustrated that someone who claims to love me blah, blah blah either doesn't miss talking to me or seems to have the self-control to not contact me. I kinda take offense that this is the case because it makes me feel so disposable.
But I did see this one...
Topic: sex question for men ~ women if you feel you know about this...
[This message edited by trynhard at 2:03 PM, March 1st (Tuesday)]
No more quality time with him. (This is where the children might be hurt so try your best to learn about what to do and not to do while with the kids)
No more physical touch.
No more affirmation. Just say nothing.
No more services for him unless children related.
No more gifts.
I always knew if that time came for me, no contact is the best for moving on.
I wish you well. Never blame yourself for this marriage failure. Infidelity is the doom. It says your H never had the respect to do enough to work out any mrriage issues. PERIOD. I think he's a drunk myself like njgal called it.
[This message edited by trynhard at 2:14 PM, March 1st (Tuesday)]
Laua - Good news about your nephew but I'm sorry about your aunt. I hope that her final days are peaceful.
ats - Your analogy with the lottery ticket is spot on! You perfectly described my FWH. The crazy thing is that I can see that he really thinks he's pulling out all the stops, but in reality very little has changed in our day to day life. My thinking is that if my devastation could not signficantly change him or how he behaves then what hope do I have that in the long run he will really be a partner to me in our M. I especially love how you described that your WW has worked over the books she has been reading. I can't get mine to finish "Not Just Friends" although seems to find time to complete his reading assignments for his master's program.
Allgood - I'll be thinking of you tonight as you give the agreement to Mr. Nogood for his review.
(((deeppurple))) I simply don't know how you keep your sanity.
You have strength and power the bold steps you take.
It really is in Gods hands. For some reason he has you on this path.
ETA: Thought that might have been a little too flippant a response. Thank you Tryn - I really do take your words to heart.
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 3:15 PM, March 1st (Tuesday)]