Never, ever marry
I fixed your post, mpbs....
Good luck on the fight, my man.
Reading through the posts of the last 2 years did finally help bring me some clarity AND, more importantly, direction.
Without knocking other forums or threads or genders, its hard to always keep listening to advice which is primarily driven by either women (cant relate too well to many things) or by men who are broken/sound emasculated (and SO WAS I TOO).
Sometimes, getting a little 'man sense' knocked into us is a good thing-no excuses, no tiptoeing, owning up, etc...
I haven't been able to talk to a single male friend of mine about the A's due to many reasons and its been a personal living hell. Just reading these posts and relating to the feelings and situations was enough of a sounding board for me. It helped me have so many internal conversations which I couldn't have had-either with WW/BW, or the MC or at other forums.
So, keep it up, thanks to the SI folk for this GIFT, I think EVERY infidelity board MUST have a 'men only' area.
Btw; Sort of shocked you havenít been pmíd by a admin since you are both a WH with an OC and a BH.
Welcome. Things are slow over here. I guess we are dealing with things elsewhere. As Mighty said, lots of talk of D, so those of us trying to R get sidetracked. Like Mighty, I too sometime fantasize about what if's, even thought my wife has been nothing short of impressive since seeking R with me.
I hope you can find what you are looking for. If you cannot in a thread, you can always PM some of the veterans on here. Wincing, Mighty, Bigger, JB3199, et al are all helpful guys.
The real reason I came over here today is to discuss paternity. I just had a patient (I had to discuss my findings with him and his oncologist) in here and he revealed (actaulyl just broke down) that his wife had been having affairs for more than six years. Well, they have a 5 year old and a 3 year old.
My mind went straight to you know where. He could tell. When we were alone, he told me he knew they were not his kids. I told him DNA tests are cheap and highly reliable. He knew. He didn't want to prove he wasn't the Dad because the kids are his life now. Mom is never around and he does not want to lose them.
All I could think about was "well, if I could take care of the situation, they would never find her body..."
Just another mark on my soul left over from the aftermath of fucking affair-a-palooza
Then the admins kept cracking down where we needed to be somewhat gender-neutral in discussions... sort of invalidated a Ďmen onlyí thread
That's a completely flase statement.
What we kept having to flag you for was the fact that you continued to generalize about women and picking numerous posts apart from various other forums that women had posted.
So for you to only come back here to post how unfairly you were treated tells us you don't need to be here.
We are very happy that you have another place that you feel more comfortable posting on.
"I'm happily indifferent to the ones who have consistently been wrong" ~kd lang~
Some of us are still around, but probably not as many of us as there were at the start.
Your observation here...
Without knocking other forums or threads or genders, its hard to always keep listening to advice which is primarily driven by either women...
is astute. It's the reason that SI has always been my primary support forum. It seemed like everywhere else I went, the majority of the advice men received wasn't even just from wives, but from wayward wives, and most of the advice ended up being of the "if u'd just luuuved her more and met more of her needs, she wouldn't have cheated on you. She wants to feel heard and understood. Learn how to give her that more than the OM did" variety.
Wayward wives predominantly telling betrayed men how to recover themselves *and* their marriage yielded some of the absolute worst and most horribly soul-draining and manipulative advice I've ever seen. (Betrayed women helping betrayed men, I'm cool with. I'm even cool with former WW's who have had a good 3-5 years of healing/progress insight, as long as that's not the primary voice a BH is hearing, but when most of the posts on how a man should handle things come from WW's, that quickly becomes a horrible dynamic for the man. It's like a 16 y.o. girl being educated about sex solely through bukkake porn.)
SI really is a treasure in the infidelity recovery online landscape.
Enough gushing. Honestly guys-I was stuck in a rut so deep and the last forum I visited about 6 months ago just ended up pushing me in further. "You have to make her feel safe, it all your fault she cant be honest", wtf? I am not DOING ANYTHING!! I used to be verbally abusive for years (used to blow up once in a while and some of them used to be huge slanging matches between the 2 of us). It was wrong, no wife, no partner no one deserves that sort of treatment. It didnt help the M AT ALL.
BUT THAT got killed on DDay one. So what was I doing to make her feel unsafe for 18 fucking months?
I didnt threaten, I didnt allow even my pain, anguish nor anger to go beyond being a broken down wimp-yet, after 18 months of TT, MC, books forums you name it... I had to 'make her feel safe'???
I think that was something made clear to me here that dishonesty and self esteem issues, blameshifting and minimising - all that was ALL her shit-not mine to own or try to fix. Which also explained how I let it fester and took my eyes off the ball from dealing with my OWN shit (and I have a lot to fix). I also learned that I HAD TO LET GO and stop trying to "change her" or protect her from herself and the outcomes she chose deliberately. Or trying to be her counselor because of her FOO issues or whatever other baggage she had been carrying for years, even years before we met; not mine to fix.
It was also critical reenforcing that "infidelity is *always* about the broken WS. It doesn't matter "how" you are, you're going to pay for it eventually with the appropriate justifications to match", it seems like a lot of people pay lip service to that idea and you can almost hear them in their PC sense and "just for the record" statements that they probably havent bought into that idea-but they cant go around blaming the 'rape victim for the rape' ... so as to speak.
It was also VERY sobering for me that I knew I had to START repairing (those I hurt, myself, the things I had done in the past), mending, undoing.... rather than keep on this "recovering the M" bandwagon and repeating that mantra of 'steps 1, 2, 3' etc.. and viola! someday its magically recovered. Never that easy, is it? Its not a 6 month process or a 2 year process... I could tell - specially with us both being WS/BS-its a long haul flight IF theres to be some semblance of R; we're talking 10-15 years (oh shit).
Which also told me I can still decide-maybe I dont want to 'work it' and maybe I want to heal myself and maybe remove myself from this toxic situation so I can serve my children better and be a better father,and be better for myself... maybe me and WW can even end up being cordial if we're not in each others faces all the time triggering each other.... maybe, sometime in the future. I always wanted to avoid that thought because of my own crippling fear of losing my kids and the comfort of being 'here'.
I heard something very liberating and powerful here; for 2 years (and maybe much more than that), I've felt WW was "mandating the outcome" by controlling the information and using her feelings to manipulate a certain response or feeling from me (maybe not even doing it deliberately). And her biggest fear was one of abandonment-so she had me on that bandwagon and I was just entirely concerned about her and the kids and their future and etc ...etc.. all this while my emotional well being, my mental health and entire feeling of self kept crumbling around me (crazymaking does that to you). Then I saw the simple statement (cant remember who it was); "I dont care if they end up calling someone else dad". Its not a 'good' statement, but it encapsulates the feeling of how desperate the crazymaking and endless games can get you to arrive at. Its also very liberating in that it says 'i've come to the point where "duty to god, country and the greater good" is no longer worth it.
I wonder where you all are at this point in your M's? I am not 'resolved' to leave WW, I am now saying to myself; I'll decide eventually when I clear myself out of my own shit pile and I'll also decide what to do right now. Its not for me to threaten nor is it for me to give her comfort that it wont happen, THAT decision was made when the A's happened. There are no guarantees since then that it can never happen....
I have a ton of things I still question and need some sensible answers to. But more on that later.
P.S. for whoever speculated-no its not OC who is on the way. This one is mine... pretty certain about it... the others, I'm about 97% sure, but I'll get those tests done to confirm one way or the other eventually. I dont know why the mods would want to PM me for being both WH and BH? Have I broken some rule here?
[This message edited by noescape at 3:07 PM, February 29th (Wednesday)]
I dont know why the mods would want to PM me for being both WH and BH? Have I broken some rule here?
No rules broken yet. Because you've identified yourself as both a BS and a WS you're not able to post in Just Found Out, and you're not able to start a thread under a stop sign in Wayward. Other than that, post away
One of the important things to learn is "Take what you need and leave the rest". Not everything you hear will resonate with you. The vast majority of posters have good intentions, and give advice based on what they know. Sometimes they are right on target and sometimes they miss by a mile. It's all worth listening to to get the overall picture. It might not all apply though.
Never be afraid of the truth
It sounds like you're getting the right mindset after initially being bombarded with tons of bad advice. Which is not to say that it's *completely* horrible advice, because giving your WS space to feel safe enough to share the truth (as they see it, not to be confused with objective truth) is a valuable tool in, you know, getting information you can work with and base practical decisions on. It's akin, in my mind, to telling an average looking girl how gorgeous she is so she'll take off her pants. She gets a little of what she wants so you ultimately get what you want. If you keep telling her, "Eh, you're sort of average and I've had better, but it's not like my weiner will rot off from touching you."...that's probably going to end in a romantic fail. Same way if you blow up at your WW every time she says something stupid, insensitive, self-serving or Lake District caliber foggy. You can take all of those gems, put them in your journal and use them as excuses to forget your anniversary or her birthday next year. It all comes out square in the end.
I've heard on lots of other forums that you can't punish and reconcile at the same time. It's a popular theme, especially from WW's on those sorts of forums who want to blame their husbands' failures or the state of the marriage for their out-of-character behavior. I happen to disagree. You just make sure you don't call it punishment. Call it "acting from hurt" or "triggering about x", where x just happens to occur at convenient times for you. There's a driving need in a great many BH's to obtain some sort of equity out of this process, to level the playing field. This is usually dismissed with a trite "nothing is ever going to make you even, so get over it" sort of expression.
I disagree. Even is whatever you say it is. Some guys pursue that sense of justice with RA's. The outcome is rarely what they expect it to be in terms of satisfaction, so it is considered a fail. I think RA's are more a failure of imagination on the justice/vengeance scale, and that's why people tend to be disappointed by them. They don't truly address the need for equity. A big part of what galls BH's over time is the sense that their wife got one over on them, that she has access to all of this secret information, and he can never have it. He's supposed to become Mr. Emotional Transparency and a surrogate female BFF so she never feels unfulfilled again and gets the Best. Marriage. Evar., and thus be content because she's not going to cheat on *that*. LOOK AT HOW MUCH HAPPIER WE R NOW THAT YOU DO EVERYTHING I WANT AND R SO AFRAID OF MY WILD SNOG-SEEKING VAGINA THAT YOU WILL NEVER DARE FAIL!!!!
Which, of course, ignores the fact that most of us were pretty decent husbands in the first place. This is one of the major issues I have with most infidelity recovery philosophies. They imply that the BH must clean up all of his shit, every mean thing he ever said, every insensitive thing he ever did and convert himself into the emotional version of Fabio in a way that precisely fits his wife's taste...and her job is to stop fucking other people. As if her fucking other people was the only thing she ever did wrong in the marriage, while *everything* he did was wrong. People conveniently forget that for every WS out there with a list of grievances for their spouse's failures, there is a BS who has been married to that WS who has a list of grievances JUST AS LONG that we accepted, tolerated and loved them through in exactly the way they did not accept, tolerate and love us. Instead, our shit became the legitimate fuel to justify their behavior.
Hello goose, meet gander. If you make me pay (which you have, by fucking other people as a way of dealing with it) for everything I've done wrong, then you've stated definitively that the way relationships should work is that people make others pay for their failures. No double standards. Either that, or we have to agree that I have now paid in full for everything I've ever done wrong, and for the rest of our married life, you have to shut the fuck up about it, because I've paid. It's not my fault if your method of exacting payment didn't work for you. You can't expect me to pay twice.
Which is a really long way around of saying by focusing on you, on what makes you happy and what gives your life meaning outside of the marriage, is a really good start. I was so sick of reading about relationships, about marriage repair, about understanding love-fucking languages, knowing your wife's menstrual cycle, understanding her FOO, blah, blah, blah, by about a year out, I was ready to join a monastery. Or get an 18 y.o. girlfriend who wasn't old enough yet to realize how fucked up she was by being human. Toss up, there.
Instead, I went back to grad school for fun. Wrote a couple of novels. Decided I could play video games if I wanted. Finally bought MLB Extra Innings so I could watch all the baseball I wanted. In other words, I invested my energy in finding out what brought me happiness instead of burning myself out trying to figure what would make her happy, and thus make my marriage a safe place.
Because one thing I learned: when you like yourself and you like your life, one part of it (like your marriage) going into the shitter doesn't take away your joy from the rest of it. It gives you the objectivity to decide what you want to keep in your life and what you can excise because it's become more trouble than it's worth.
It is infinitely better to be married because you want to be there but don't have to be than to feel like you can't imagine a future where you're not married to this person. Working on you is a way of preventing those sorts of failures of imagination.
And working on you is not fixing those things your wife has identified as problems with you. What the fuck does she know? This is a woman who handles life's curveballs by doing impersonations of the Holland Tunnel with her vagina. She is not qualified to diagnose other people's dysfunctions, let alone yours, whom she has identified as someone who is worth, or deserves, to be traumatized and punished for all the things she doesn't like about you.
You work on the shit *you* want to make better about yourself. Maybe you want to learn how to shoot automatic weapons. Maybe you want to study knife fighting or get some cool ninja-hacking skills. Maybe you realize that you're not assertive enough in the workplace and need to work on speaking up for yourself. We've all got a list of things we'd like to try out, to see if the destinies fit, but we put them on the back burner once we got married, because we didn't think our spouse could handle something so radically different. Guess what? Now is your time to explore those things. What's she going to say? "Who you're becoming makes me feel scared and helpless, like I don't know (how to control) you anymore?"
Guess what, I had all of those feelings from you fucking other men, and I had to grow up and deal. Welcome to the adulthood club. You should be getting a beanie and vest in the mail shortly.
So that's what part of my process looked like. We're six years out. Happily married. My wife has done a ton of work on herself. I might get into that later.
You heal. Life goes on.
[This message edited by wincing_at_light at 5:02 PM, February 29th (Wednesday)]
but when most of the posts on how a man should handle things come from WW's, that quickly becomes a horrible dynamic for the man. It's like a 16 y.o. girl being educated about sex solely through bukkake porn.)
LOL! That's fucking priceless.
The emotional entitlement aspect of WW's, excuse me (don't want to generalize) my WW's A is/was maddening. Basically it's "I'm not happy with the way you treat me, I found someone who 'makes me happy', so rather than voice my concern with our relationship and try to work on our problems, I'm going to start fucking someone else because he 'fills up my soulbank'. Additionally, I wish I could come to you and tell you things about myself, but the environment you've created makes me feel very unsafe and I can't share with you."
This kind of thinking and (il)logic is born out of the Cosmopolitan magazine survey school of marriage counseling. The "how to tell if your husband really loves you" set.
It would be funny if it wasn't so fucking unfunny and destructive.
[This message edited by dday3302011 at 7:46 PM, February 29th (Wednesday)]
On DDay when I discovered WW's A and confronted her, one of my first questions was "what are your plans?", assuming that WW and OM were planning a life together. Mind you at this point I had recovered a bunch of deleted text messages such as, "so good hearing your voice, I love you", and "you are my soulmate, I long to see you again". Anyway, WW tells me there are no plans and there never have been. The OM was married, and separated from his BW during the year long A.
Of course my first instinct was the same as any other guy here: "You're fucking kidding me? This guy doesn't give a shit about you, all he wants is a piece of ass.". WW said, "he's very special to me" and wouldn't/couldn't understand why I was saying what I was saying. She had it parsed in her own head that OM truly cared for her but our M was what she really wanted (as long as it was the kind of M that wouldn't cause her to have an A) so she would drop him and try to R if I could change.
Needless to say I wasn't having any of that and told her to get the fuck out and I'd be seeking full custody of the kids. She crumbled and admitted she didn't know what she was doing, but she still loved me and would do anything to stay. For several weeks though she remained unable to see OM for what he really was. He wrote her a lot of gushy love letters during the A that she took to heart and apparently truly believed.
A month or so later when I discovered SI, I started a thread asking people's opinion on telling the BW. I got a lot of "she deserves to know, you have to tell her" comments. Completely reasonable, but BW could have gone ballistic and destroyed WW's career, so I was torn. Anyway I decided to contact her because I couldn't stand the thought of OM getting off the hook for this whole ordeal. Basically, "I don't care what the consequences are, fuck him". She never got back to me. Until 5 days ago.
BW called my cell phone out of the blue and said she felt compelled because it was the 1 year anniversary of WW and OM's last physical encounter.
Come to find out, BW found OM"s love letters to my WW. Funny that she had read them all before because the were carbon copies of letters she got from OM years earlier when they stared their relationship. By the way both were married to other people at the time. OM didn't tell WW he was on his second marriage.
Additionally, OM didn't return to his BW because he "couldn't face what he'd done", and thought that the only time he's ever excited by a relationship is when it's secretive.
Quite a "soulmate" huh?
[This message edited by dday3302011 at 8:12 PM, February 29th (Wednesday)]
Finally, FINALLY I feel truly understood! Why should I have to hear that her IC said "I was verbally abusive" because I call her names? Why should I hear I'm being "controlling" when she misued the control of her life that she had...much more control than a previously BH should give.
wincing- I specifically copied some of your post & sent it to her via FB...not like she cares since now, instead of letting OM lead her around by the nose, her IC is doing it.
"You could stand me up at the gates of Hell but I won't back down"
instead of letting OM lead her around by the nose, her IC is doing it
Except it's not IC, it's anyone and everyone who can validate her extremely bad choices