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User Topic: Betrayed Men-Part 7
Ethelred
♂ Member
Member # 23332
Default  Posted: 10:06 PM, February 2nd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@sourcherrydrops - re my daughter, a significant portion of her friends parents are getting divorced but I don't know those people or what the causes are.

My short term goals are very small. First, I want to pay off all of my credit card debt. Our accounts are separate now. Then, I wanted to move things that I consider to be just "mine" to a storage unit by April - mostly personal momentos.

Later on I want to begin a password-protected diary to imagine the rest of my life without my WW - it's a big mental barrier for me, I always imagined being together

@Merlin - I am also in NJ and one reason I have been moving slow is what little I have learned is that NJ seems to be especially hostile to men. Please take care of your health, don't let the stress from this give you a heart attack. The idea of selling it all and living in a trailer would be preferable.

[This message edited by Ethelred at 10:09 PM, February 2nd (Wednesday)]


Me: BH
Her: WW
Married: almost 20 years
D-Day: 2009 (cybersex for over 5 years, associated EAs); in the dark about PAs, no full disclosure.

Posts: 271 | Registered: Mar 2009
Ethelred
♂ Member
Member # 23332
Default  Posted: 10:22 PM, February 2nd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

[This message edited by Ethelred at 3:29 AM, February 3rd (Thursday)]


Me: BH
Her: WW
Married: almost 20 years
D-Day: 2009 (cybersex for over 5 years, associated EAs); in the dark about PAs, no full disclosure.

Posts: 271 | Registered: Mar 2009
hurts
♂ Member
Member # 9444
Default  Posted: 11:47 PM, February 2nd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

.

[This message edited by hurts at 11:53 PM, February 2nd (Wednesday)]


Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?"
Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
--- Charles M. Schulz
SO if I check my pulse, and it is not there, do I get the day off?

Posts: 8381 | Registered: Jan 2006 | From: At Home
SourCherryDrops
♂ Member
Member # 25883
Default  Posted: 4:04 AM, February 3rd (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Merlin,

Its beyond baffling a court order like that. Ive heard the outcome from several NJ residents here on SI and maybe its selective hearing but each time i just shake my head in amazement.

I dont advocate screwing a XS out of what is fair, what the higher earner is easily capable of paying, but neither should they be forced into poverty whilst the other spouse lives a life of luxury far beyond what they had during the M.

Actually when a M disolves both parties should expect to live at a level below what was sustainable as a couple, The idea that the kids deserve to continue in the same level is nice in priciple but in practice if enforced it ensures that the partner that doesnt have custody is subjected to a significantly lower standard of living than during the M.


Me BS 37, Her STBX 34, 1*ONS, 1*EA 1*PA/EA, 2*PA
Heading for D after 9 mths of R

Posts: 1468 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: Europe
Merlin
♂ Member
Member # 30221
Default  Posted: 6:06 AM, February 3rd (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

SourCherryDrops,

The fairness you advocate is what I think is meant by the phrase 'equitable distribution' which is what NJ says it does. But somewhere along the way that turned into Orwell's 'newspeak'.

Divorcing parties should expect to live a little less well by virtue of having two households instead of one. That would be nice. Instead, in my case at least, one party becomes a parasite, the other a host. But parasites rarely kill the host during initial 'attachment'.


"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." D. H. Lawrence

Her: WW/56 Me: BS/62, 24yrs M
3 great kids, now 22, 20, 17 b,b,g
D-Day 8/14/08, D 1/13/11


Posts: 1088 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: East Coast
OnceInALifetime
♂ Member
Member # 26023
Default  Posted: 8:13 AM, February 3rd (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And, the burden of proof should be put on the recipient of support that they are doing everything humanly possible to earn as much money as they can.

I don't believe in the "moral imperative" that the recipient of support must have the same standard of living as the payor, in normal circumstances. There needs to be more motivation for the recipient to make their own way, and not be their XS's dependent.

I can never resist spewing out my strong feelings on this whenever it comes up.

ETA: And this is really important: the burden of proof should be on the recipient that they truly sacrificed earnings potential during the marriage. I don't get why a working spouse who's had a regular full time job should ever get alimony, period. Maybe some rare exceptions, where they gave up an opportunity to get a degree or something.

But to just blindly assume that post divorce standards of living between the X's should be the same is random, and often ridiculously unjust.

[This message edited by OnceInALifetime at 8:17 AM, February 3rd (Thursday)]


BH, now divorced

Posts: 3012 | Registered: Oct 2009
Merlin
♂ Member
Member # 30221
Default  Posted: 10:33 AM, February 3rd (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And, the burden of proof should be put on the recipient of support that they are doing everything humanly possible to earn as much money as they can.
I don't believe in the "moral imperative" that the recipient of support must have the same standard of living as the payor, in normal circumstances. There needs to be more motivation for the recipient to make their own way, and not be their XS's dependent.

I can never resist spewing out my strong feelings on this whenever it comes up.

ETA: And this is really important: the burden of proof should be on the recipient that they truly sacrificed earnings potential during the marriage. I don't get why a working spouse who's had a regular full time job should ever get alimony, period. Maybe some rare exceptions, where they gave up an opportunity to get a degree or something.

But to just blindly assume that post divorce standards of living between the X's should be the same is random, and often ridiculously unjust.


OAIL,

You and I agree on every point here. The courts are off in another direction and still heading away from sense, justice and decency. And everyone on board for the paychecks just lets it keep going.


"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." D. H. Lawrence

Her: WW/56 Me: BS/62, 24yrs M
3 great kids, now 22, 20, 17 b,b,g
D-Day 8/14/08, D 1/13/11


Posts: 1088 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: East Coast
Jimi40
♂ Member
Member # 10909
Default  Posted: 7:22 AM, February 4th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Equal Rights, my ass!!

It's a tough pill to swallow boys, but, from what I have read, it is changing. Albeit slowly.


You've got nowhere to fall, when your back's to the wall.

Posts: 5524 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: Niagara
Merlin
♂ Member
Member # 30221
Default  Posted: 12:22 PM, February 4th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Equal Rights, my ass!!

Jimi40,

Yeah. Her equal rights turn me into an indentured servant and poverty case for life (my attorney's words).


"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." D. H. Lawrence

Her: WW/56 Me: BS/62, 24yrs M
3 great kids, now 22, 20, 17 b,b,g
D-Day 8/14/08, D 1/13/11


Posts: 1088 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: East Coast
SourCherryDrops
♂ Member
Member # 25883
Default  Posted: 5:44 AM, February 7th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just seen my new mothly after tax paycheck...(here there is a different tax rate for single adults as ther is for married couples) dang!

Sure my CS payments got recalculated, but the reduction is nothing like the increase in taxes, so Im even worse off now. and i was pretty borderline before. Now ill have no discretionary spending money at all, and ill have to cut back on my food budget as well.

Looks like i can forget all about going anywhere for a holiday this year.

Infact im going to have to change the agreement with my STBXW about use of the marital home. Initially it was to be sold ASAP but now WW wants to stay in it. Up till now she has essentially been living rent free. That will no longer be possible for me. I cannot continue to pay a full half of the mortgage.

So tonight ill have to sit down and work out a proposal for her to start paying a larger portion of the mortgage.

What really irks me is that when im there shes telling me how she has no money, but shes still smokin, and theres currently a dozen beers in the fridge, 3 bottles of wine, and two bottles of ready mixed cocktails.... (hmm whose that beer for... MEH never mind) It gets on my nerves, Sometime's i feel like shouting at her to just shut the fuck up already, but im trying not to engage, and really it wouldnt do any good.

Im pissed off right now! Sure Ill get over it and go on with things eventually but right now im pissed off!

How the hell im going to clear my overdraft i have no idea, shit!

I fell like smashing up some old furniture, but...if i had some old furniture id use it in my half empty apartment...

Ok deep breath...mini vent over....

So should i talk with her about changing my contribution to the mortgage on the house or should i just have the letter sent via my lawyer. I think if we talked i could get her to agree to my proposal bfore sending it to her lawyer, whereas if it goes through her lawyer first, he is likely to encourage her to fight against it. I know that he might do that anyway... so what do you guys suggest?


Me BS 37, Her STBX 34, 1*ONS, 1*EA 1*PA/EA, 2*PA
Heading for D after 9 mths of R

Posts: 1468 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: Europe
survivorman
♂ Member
Member # 29515
Default  Posted: 4:36 PM, February 7th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

SCD: I guess it mostly depends on your relationship with your WW. If it's amicable enough, I'd go ahead and address it directly with her first. As long as you think you can keep it businesslike, it can't do much harm, and could do a lot of good by sidestepping lawyerly crap and associated expenses.

On the other hand, if either of you are inclined to start spinning your heads around, vomiting pea soup or clinging to the ceiling, you might as well go through the lawyers. Your call .

At least you presumably have some leverage here, though. As in, you could go ahead and push to have the house sold, right?

Anyway, sorry to hear things have taken a bad turn. It's temporary, I'm sure, but that doesn't make it any easier in the short run.


Me: BH; Her: Slime Mold; DS7
D-day #1 6/09; D-day #2 8/10; divorced 3/12

After what you did I can't stay on
And I'll probably feel a whole lot better
When you're gone


Posts: 489 | Registered: Sep 2010 | From: survivorman
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 8:00 PM, February 7th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

There a reason you're paying mortgage on a house you aren't living in? I don't understand that situation. There a court order or are you just being nice and bleeding out while she takes advantage?


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7102 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
OnceInALifetime
♂ Member
Member # 26023
Default  Posted: 9:01 PM, February 7th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey guys,

Curious, I keep hearing about the problems with "nice guys." You know, weak insecure types who try to make up for their lack of confidence by being super "nice."

A complete, total turn off for women, it seems, who, from what I've read here on SI, all find the man-who-knows-what-he-wants-and-goes-for-it to be a very attractive characteristic.

Thing is, I almost never hear about men bemoaning the "nice girls." Is it generally the men who have this issue of bad "niceness?" Have any of you experienced the female version of this? I have never heard a guy say "well, she's nice, but..."


BH, now divorced

Posts: 3012 | Registered: Oct 2009
wincing_at_light
♂ Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 9:47 PM, February 7th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Has it occurred to you that you maybe ought to broaden your circle of advice?

I think you're getting a site-centric skew, honestly. Too many people confusing "nice" with domesticated or assuming (due to betrayal) that "nice" is just a cover for a beating heart of deceit. In the real world, "nice" != weak or devoid of confidence. In fact, I'd argue that nice/meek is actually a position of enormous strength and confidence.

You know as well as I do that the world is full of nice people you wouldn't date. Nice is just one of many characteristics people weigh as part of attraction.

Just be you, man. You as you will attract the sorts of women you want to spend your time with. Don't worry about all the fairy tales people tell themselves to find their Prince/Princess Charming.

I mean, unless *you're* confusing "nice" with pandering, and that's just not attractive on anybody.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
wincing_at_light
♂ Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 9:52 PM, February 7th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

For the record, I don't consider myself a particularly nice guy, but my wife would probably tell you differently.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
SourCherryDrops
♂ Member
Member # 25883
Default  Posted: 3:15 AM, February 8th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OIAL,

I sort of agree with WAL, but id like to point out that nice is not synonomous with meek, or insecure. Actually some guys who are insucure can be real assholes, and some guys who are meek can be just plane weird.

Its also not written in stone that nice guys are not also a man-who-knows-what-he-wants-and-goes-for-it.

However, I also know what your getting at, and from my personal experience can ratify it. I never had so much success with the ladies as when i was working as a bartender and had gained a reputation as a bit of a bad boy / ladies man. I can tell you annecdotes about friends of women that id bedded who'd been specifically warned that i was 'bad news' being willing to do whatever less than an hour after meeting me.

I dont know what it was, wether they wanted to see what all the fuss was about, or wether they wanted to be the one that set me on the straight and narrow again, but the reputation (and the swagger that went with it) seemed to exert a specail attraction.

Ofcourse these days Im not really interested in that anymore, and certainly wouldnt look for a SO from those ranks.

But it has taught me one thing, It doesnt pay to be shy in courtship. and i think that is the idea expressed in the phase a man-who-knows-what-he-wants-and-goes-for-it
you need to have the self confidence to go for it. To brush off the inevitable rejections and not withdraw into yourself.


Me BS 37, Her STBX 34, 1*ONS, 1*EA 1*PA/EA, 2*PA
Heading for D after 9 mths of R

Posts: 1468 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: Europe
OnceInALifetime
♂ Member
Member # 26023
Default  Posted: 8:15 AM, February 8th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But why is it that you hear women rant against Nice Guys, but never hear men rant against Nice Girls?

Just to reiterate, the Nice Guy is seen as someone who covers up his insecurities by being "nice," when in fact he's really dishonest and manipulative in a passive aggressive sort of way.

Why is it that I never hear about a similar Nice Girl syndrome? Is it a primarily male problem? Or does it have more to do with the whole dynamics of the sexes, and the roles men and women are expected to fit into? Or is there in fact a Nice Girl syndrome that I just haven't heard about?

[This message edited by OnceInALifetime at 8:15 AM, February 8th (Tuesday)]


BH, now divorced

Posts: 3012 | Registered: Oct 2009
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 8:48 AM, February 8th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Curious, I keep hearing about the problems with "nice guys." You know, weak insecure types who try to make up for their lack of confidence by being super "nice."

A complete, total turn off for women, it seems, who, from what I've read here on SI, all find the man-who-knows-what-he-wants-and-goes-for-it to be a very attractive characteristic.

IMO, rants against nice guys are like rants against the religious right or liberal democrats. You only hear it from a specific demographic.

Most of the rants against nice guys are, in my opinion, dressed up justifications for being attracted to a kind of guy that is considered shallow or obnoxious when that isn't necessarily the case.

Confidence is not synonymous with belligerence, but belligerence is a lot more notable than quiet self assurance. Nobody will notice me in a room until I choose to be noticed, but when I decide I want attention, I have it immediately and unswervingly.

Again, belligerence isn't always a bad thing, either. It isn't usually associated with being a nice person, since it is about getting into other peoples space and fucking up comfort zones.

I think there are plenty of women out there who are into nice guys, as defined by nice guys. Where we are, though, is a place where a lot of women have been hurt by men who aren't really going to be considered nice guys, and they like that kind of guy, and there's nothing wrong with that but they're gonna feel defensive about it. Whereas, on the flipside, we have guys who generally do fall into that category, who have been hurt, and come out with their pain and confusion wondering what the fuck they did wrong, but essentially asking the wrong audience about their attractive qualities.

That's not to say every woman here is going to roll with that; absolutely not. I'm sure if you said "What is wrong with me that I am quiet, gentle, patient, thoughtful, considerate and loving that I can't get a date?" there'd be a round of gals that'd jump up and down wishing they could get on that. Most of them without saying anything, since they also are the kind of people to sit in the back of the room content to not be the center of attention.

It's a byzantine mess and trying to make sense of it is like trying to figure out why the cosmological constant supports an expanding universe even though it was abandoned in favor of special relativity for just that purpose.

TL:DR - labels mean different things to different people.

eta:

I really should read other posts following the one I was responding to so I don't just parrot the same stuff.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 8:50 AM, February 8th (Tuesday)]


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7102 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
lostcause111
♂ Member
Member # 19109
Default  Posted: 9:37 AM, February 8th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Here is my take.

Their is nothing wrong with being nice .... with the right person.

Unfortunately being nice has a tendency to attract borderline and selfish people ... see my wife.

With somebody who is nice little shit should not be a big deal. You should be able to take it easy.

In my wifes warped view being nice=weak. She took this to max advantage for her affair and her pport treatment of me. Actually at some levels and is not discussed enough anywhere is was emmotional abuse.

When d-day came and as I really looked at who my wife was I finally saw the selfish 10 yo she really is.

With a 10 year old you cannot let shit slide. An inch = a mile. You cannot have adult level conversation without it becoming a bitchy match.

So how does that apply to my stitch?

I have had to accept no matter how far I improve myself I am marriage to damaged good and their is not one single thing i can do about it.

The only thing I can do is accept these facts if I want to stay with my children.

And for thsi stuff never to happen again i have stopped taking absolutely any BS from wife. I will throttle her hard and am more than happy to escalate BS way beyond whre she wanted to go. This has stopped many arguments and is not nice but needs to be done because without this bull stance on certain things my wife would walk all over me again.

So I am a good guy now. Not nice. I am pleasant and kind and act as a husband should but with my wife my mantra of peace and win win does not apply. She does not think like me.

So do I say I love you. yes. Do I do nice things yes. Do I hammer her when needed? Yes.

Their is nothing wrong with being nice but keep in mind your audience.


Posts: 934 | Registered: Apr 2008
SourCherryDrops
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Member # 25883
Default  Posted: 2:25 AM, February 9th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Why is it that I never hear about a similar Nice Girl syndrome? Is it a primarily male problem? Or does it have more to do with the whole dynamics of the sexes, and the roles men and women are expected to fit into? Or is there in fact a Nice Girl syndrome that I just haven't heard about?

I dont think there really is a 'Nice Girl' Sterotype, especially not one that has any bad connotations. But there are definately sterotypes that apply to women and not to men.

Just think of their 'Clingy, Obsessive Sterotype' reading in NB you certainly get the impression that plenty of women worry about coming across as this sterotype, probably to the same extent as guys do about being considered a 'nice guy'

Just to reiterate, the Nice Guy is seen as someone who covers up his insecurities by being "nice," when in fact he's really dishonest and manipulative in a passive aggressive sort of way.

I actually disagree with your definition of a 'nice guy' too. These days i would consider myself a nice guy, im certainly not dishonest, nor manipulative, while i may occasionally exhibit passive aggressive behaviours its not my normal mode. and although i do have some insecurities remaining after this trip thorough infidelity, on the whole im a pretty self assured person, if perhapes still naturally shy, and somewhat introverted. But i am honest, straight up, hard working, polite, considerate, inteligent, compasionate, and true.

If we do take your definition of nice then id say there are just as many women that fit the bill as men, but they would only be a very small subset of the people that most would class as nice.


Me BS 37, Her STBX 34, 1*ONS, 1*EA 1*PA/EA, 2*PA
Heading for D after 9 mths of R

Posts: 1468 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: Europe
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