Just want y'all to know I'm here and listening.
NJgal -- I especially want to give you a hug. I'll quote a T-shirt I saw the other day:
"When Life Gives You Lemons -- Keep Them! Because, hey, you know, free lemons!"
There is a good question ATS puts forth there about when you're just so codependent that it's unhealthy for your kids...
You know, as some of the folks here know, I considered OW to be one of my very best friends. Yep. My WH introduced me to his AP, had us befriend each other, we took our families on vacation together, etc. To the two of them, we were all one happy family. Unbeknownst to her BH (well, he might have known) but at least unbekwnownst to me.
So... I watched my WH walk out of the house to have a DATE on many occasions, not knowing that's what was going on. To me, having drinks with a friend a few times a year was no biggie. Especially since WH didn't make it to many of the dinner/playdates we had. (Duh.)
What really saddens me is that my oldest child figured out at some point what was really going on. They would take the kids out together. She'd plan an activity -- and she honestly didn't care whether WH or I was the parent who brought the kids.
But it was my then 7 year old son who gave me the first real solid clue I genuinely noticed that OW and my WH weren't "just friends". He asked me if I'd be angry if his dad had a girlfriend.
Ok -- and this is where ATS is so right about enabling. This behavior is BEYOND sick. As hurt and angry as I was/am, my very first thought on the final *real* Dday was that my WH had truly let his FOO ruin his entire life.
DP -- you have a responsibility to raise your children as moral people. Moral people do not marry and cheat. Ask any FWS on SI -- they will tell you their moral compass was broken during their A.
I know you love your wife -- and it's because of this you need to do something. She is not living an authentic life. I know you want her version of an authentic life to me a monogamous relationship with you -- but if it isn't, it's still very important for her to live the best life possible for her.
And WS's are people who have become very, very confused about what that is.
My WH would like to move into a less expensive house. I am pleased by this, as I suggested it and I'm amazed he's actually listening to me.
But, yes, and LTA calls a person's character into question in a particularly sharp light. I've been thinking for a few weeks now that I don't know that I'm comfortable moving forward with WH in this way.
So, tryn will be happy to hear that I've decided to tell WH that I will make these changes with him if he will go to Retrouvaille with me.
DP -- why not have some papers to separate drawn up where your WW must leave the house? Tell her it's either Retrouvaille or the papers. Don't ask her to end the A -- but ask for the Retrouvaille.
What I won't do is have any type relationship with a person as such... Does that make sense?
I still want the grill marks. Like the ones on a nice steak.
So you put the pancakes onto the grill AFTER they are fried in the deep fat.
DP, FWIW, I did not really get my W back until I demonstrated to her and myself that I could and was ready to move on with my life. She did not really know what she wanted until a year after dday. As others and I have indicated, your WS does not really understand what she is doing. She is ignorant because of the miss-perceptions and rationalizations necessary to conduct the A. Shortly after dday my FWW saw her OM as a friend she was fond of, who was nice to her. She told me she had fond memories that she wanted to hold on to. I have never been told what those fond memories are, but I know that now a picture of the two of them together sends her into a tearful shame. It took me months to break down the fantasies she had constructed around their A, and some of what I did was intentionally hurtful and demeaning. Like a medical treatment, I hurt her in the short term to heal her (I hoped) in the long term. I did not focus on how I was good to her and she was bad. I focused on how the OM was using her. I repeated back what she told me and made her try to defend it as healthy or normal.
I am not saying you need to R with your wife, or that she will R with you, but I do believe that you have a responsibility to intervene in whatever ways you can to tear down her fantasy and drag her back into reality. For her own good. Out the A to her parents, family, and your friends. Keep up your efforts to identify the OM. 180 your WW and force her to turn to the OM for all of her emotional needs, not just the gumdrops and cotton candy of a fantasy date. Focus 100% of your mental efforts on you and your children. Keep a journal of what you do caring for the children and what she does or does not. Keep the dates she goes out. Make use of the investigative techniques. Best Wishes to you deeppurple, and to yours.
FGNF, I liked your points on forgiveness. You are correct that for me, understanding why FWW was wired emotionally the way she was, gave me some empathy for how she ended up doing what she did. Not just in the A’s, but in life in general.
m334455, I understand what you are saying. If FWW was changing into a different person emotionally and personality form her IC and own work, then I would be hesitant to be all in for R.
Not for nuthin', but the "picking a friend" part was me.
But this I do remember (wrote down who it belonged to!!)
I had hurt his feelings after he revealed his A by saying things like he was selfish. uh... WOW. Wow. Woooooooowwwwww. Giant wow sandwich with a side of wow on a bed of wow with extra wow sauce and a big glass of wow to wash it all down.
how much of her life and our time she had wasted being mad at people for not making her happy when she needed to be happy from within.
WW went out on NYE with MOM
My FWH isn’t a runner in a stressful situation. Unless you call legging it to MOW being a runner. And we were about to have the MOST stressful time with his ex-employers knowing that when he handed his notice in, they would be after his blood. But he is a coward in his personal life. With me. Death and funerals seem to be a trigger for him to grab life and have an affair. It brings home the fragility of life. I’m watching him carefully at the moment. A guy he worked for and with in his last company died last October from hepatitis contracted out in China. He was 46. Another guy (Italian) connected with work had a brain tumour diagnosed on 19th Dec and was dead on 22nd. He had been working up to the day before and complained of a runny nose. He was late 40’s. A neighbour around our age is dying. Bloke at the golf club is dying. Life is short. A reason for him to grasp it greedily and live it so intensely that he can block out his own sense of mortality. I do think his experiences in the previous year or so were fuel for the LTA and led him to actively look for his ex-gf.
I’ll come back on the forgiveness debate later – dinner calls. And the immediate debate is – red or white?
eta - H is grillin' lamb steaks...... but indoor!
[This message edited by UKgirl at 1:40 PM, January 18th (Tuesday)]
Laura & Lostsuol: a question - why are you ok with your Hs still working with OWs? (which is asked n a non-judgmental, just inquisitive kind of way.)
Have to go... more later.
And the immediate debate is – red or white?
Can you tell I forgot to eat lunch again? Off to snack my way to happiness.
UK.. you are funny...
M3... I hope you do go to Retrou... The stories by the presenters are very good, interesting, warming... some hit you right in the heart. Every presenter has a happy ending. Not one guy I meet at Retrou said a negative word. The couples were young, old, every race.. Some of the subjects are tough emotionally... but the majority were loving things you do for each other. This too.. 3 couples did run in that first hour... those were da runners... Our group had about 30 couples. I honestly believe about everyone got something positive out of it... I will say I looked around the room wondering which one was the cheater... W said the same thing..lol
Dp... I give you strength... I say use your wife's partnership until you get a job.. focus on achieving a financial independence as soon as possible... I think you need to some how start dreaming a good, fun, life, with you and your kids... Just try imagining.. what it would be like. Take some scenes from when you and the kids are alone together.... But stay away from Nell's wine...
[This message edited by trynhard at 8:01 PM, January 18th (Tuesday)]
What is the trigger?
A funeral....yep, a funeral.
Just found out that my SIL's father passes away and the funeral will be this weekend.
Why is this a trigger?
Well, during the LTA my father passed away and... the OW showed up at my father's funeral!
I did not know her at all.
She was a co-worker of my husband.
I did know the 2 other co-workers she convinced to go with her!
I know...that move was totally wrong, immoral, sick even....
for her to be sitting in the back pew of a church during the BS father's funeral mass.
Who was she sitting next to?
and.... the worst part is that my husband did not say a word to her afterward.
He did not go ballistic and tell her that she crossed the line.
All he managed was to say that it was strange to see her there.
He did not stand up for me.
he was so disloyal.
This crazy witch just wanted to come to check me and our family out!
My husband was so mesmerized by her that he was afraid of getting her mad I guess.
I found this out later from another co-worker.
so, that's why this upcoming funeral is a trigger for me.
Fnf, that was a good post about forgiveness. I printed it out to reread.
Forgiveness is a process. The trauma has to be over. The person who did the wrong thing needs to have stopped doing it.
It's hard to forgive when the other person isn't remorseful or even sorry.
It took me years to forgive xWH, but he didn't keep up the painful behavior. I had to take a long and objective look at our whole marriage and everything involved and realized that he and I did the best we could at the time and he made a bad mistake with his A. It was only a few months long.
Maybe someday I will be able to forgive current WH. He is NOT remorseful, still blames me for his actions and continues his hurtful behavior.
The rollercoaster has taken another dip. Oh well.
so how are you handling this trigger?
yes she was so out of line...yes your husband was stupid...(i don't believe for what its worth that his intention or unintention had anything to do with sticking up for you btw...i dont think he gave it a second thought of who she actually was...nor do i think he was so taken with her....she just "was" for him...he never professed love for her if i remember correctly...she was more habit then anything,...habit and a huge part of his addiction to alcohol)....
m3: maybe going to retro....yay....i hope that at the very least you can learn how to communicate for your kids about your kids....
(((lostsoul)))...i have no words, lots of hugs...its a really tough rock and equally tough hard place...
It's hard to forgive when the other person isn't remorseful or even sorry
or even if they are remorseful (mostly regretful) and sorry but not sorry enough, not remorseful enough....still lies....and then lies about the lies.....
but still honest, we will eventually find a way to forgive our idiots....maybe not anytime soon though...but eventually...because i think we deserve to let them go.....for US...
forgiveness for me is letting it go...not allowing it to have anymore power over me....does not mean that it was or ever was or could be ok....it will just "be" and i want to let it "GO"......because then i can truly move on....
it is what it is, it will become what i make it...living for today, preparing for tomorrow, remembering that i cannot control it all, so i will do what i can and let go of the rest....
M3, I'm glad you are going to Retro....it can only help and can't hurt.
It is easy to believe in R when the stress level is low, but add in some DS18 stress with college and the triangulation is back and I have drunk $25 worth of scotch; it is single malt, so not as much as you are thinking. I made the right call, and checked in with a friend to concur, but I set myself up as the bad guy while FWW plays caring and concerned Mom and find comfort with her kids. FUCK this.
I am beginning to realize that no matter the issue, the A is sitting in the corner waiting to come on to the stage. When I am drunk, I wish I had someone to desire me and say nice things to me just to have sex.
Yes, I should tell FWW I am hurting, but right now, I think she should have a clue rather than being thankful I said I am fine.
I made this mess with my tolerance; I am not sure the path out. DS and other may suffer for my lack of balls.
DP, Tryn had good advice to take full advantage of the resources your WS provides while you get your ducks in a row. When your ducks are lined up, take a picture for us like Laura does.
I hate this shit!
ETA. wow, that reads negative. I am going to pop some corn and watch Family Guy and try not to be so pathetic.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 11:24 PM, January 18th (Tuesday)]
eta: i saw your eta...i hope you decompress watching some comedy....get a good nite sleep too, kkkk
[This message edited by iwantamiracle at 11:32 PM, January 18th (Tuesday)]
YOu and FWW need to discuss with MC how you guys will handle the parenting issues in the future. Kids will try to divide and conquer if they can...
Try to stay calm and just look at this issue only. I know it's hard because all the other crap is there wanting attention too.
I have my Parliament 100's. Cutting down though!!
I am here. It's only 5.30pm here so I will be around all night if you need me.
sent a text telling me what an awful Father I am.
Of course. That's what kids do to get their way. But we all know that in the long term they will thank you for caring enough not to take the easy course and give in. He's just flexing his muscles.
DS and other may suffer for my lack of balls.
No No No No No No No No No No !!!!!!!!
It takes far more "balls" to stay and R than to run away!!! You know that. It took ENORMOUS balls to help your W with her issues as you did. Please stop beating yourself up.
BTW My H told me he was upset that OW3 told him several times that he didn't have the balls to leave me.
He didn't like that!!
I'm here ats
This crazy witch just wanted to come to check me and our family out!
The only thing I could suggest is that you tell DS18 that you will discuss it with Mrs Ats and then get back to him.
You have not made a mess – you are trying (and succeeding) to turn things around. Sometimes things get broken in the process, but you clear up and carry on that path that is the right one. It takes balls to stay on the path and lack of balls to give up. You can’t be strong all the time – cut yourself some slack.
FWH’s SIL has been to the hospice. I think it was just a visit so she knows what she will be going to when she needs it. FWH is pretty much estranged from his brother and I have gone NC since dday (long story), but he did try to patch things for the sake of their parents up when SIL got the terminal diagnosis. I wonder what is going through FWH’s heart and mind with all this going on. Is he going to be looking for another escape from reality and another affair? I have said before that I think MOW would try to contact him if she had a bereavement and that he would be unable to resist offering her something in the way of comfort.
Now I feel bad. FWH has just made me an espresso (I'm trying coffee for the first time......) and brought some chocolate biscuits.