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User Topic: Long Term Affair Part 22
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 10:13 AM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Honest-
here's the link...
free nicotine patches, free online support, free telephone counseling support, even smoke ender support group meetings!

http://nysmokefree.com/PageView.aspx?P=10&P1=1120


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 10:19 AM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ahh, Allgood, I think I understand now your reluctance to go to Retro. Let me know if I'm wrong, but you seem to feel that all this time you have been making such a great effort and WH is not and going to Retro you feel you will be putting yourself out there completely AGAIN, to completely open up only to be rejected in WH's lack of effort. In a way, I think you will feel that this will be a deciding factor....if WH doesn't come up to bat, you will feel you have no choice but to S. And you do not want to be hurt again, or beating a dead horse to get some reaction.

Perhaps you should just give some more thought about Retro. Starting to research about it is good. I think a lot of us, including myself, are hoping that by attending Retro, your WH might finally wake up and realize that there are different ways to handle things than hoping it will all go away if he ignores it.

Nell, as with anything else, the person has to finally make the decision to quit (or stop drinking or whatever). And FINALLY I'm getting there. It's for ME. I think this is a huge thing that I feel I'm worth it. Before, I started smoking more and more, and it was like I was committing a slow suicide, and didn't care.

God, I thought of another analogy: (here I go again). But change is not easy. It's like my son and the orthodontist. The crooked teeth have roots. It takes a LONG time to little by little change that. And even when the teeth are corrected, one needs to wear a retainer to make sure they don't revert back to the old ways. And change can be uncomfortable and HURT. No wonder so many people (myself included) just want to stay in the old comfortable rut we were in.

Well, I'm off to the chiropractor. Hurt my back the other day, just slightly bending over!!! Had one adjustment and was able to move again, so hopefully this visit will help even more.

ETA: cross posting NJgal, thank you for the link. One day at a time!!

Have a great day everyone.

{{{tribe}}}

ETA to edit the cat walking across the keyboard!!

[This message edited by honesttoafault at 10:24 AM, January 17th (Monday)]


Posts: 1897 | Registered: Jan 2010
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 10:57 AM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Allgood...
Anyway, thanks for your input Tryn. How are you by the way?
Thank you for asking.

I am doing very good. I really have accepted what has happened. Let me give you an example of what happened yesterday that proves I am healing. It was full of happiness. But a key thing happened yesterday… This has slowly evolved to who I am today. We watched the movie called Every Day with Helen Hunt. It has a couple of infidelity scenes. I felt little or no hurt what so ever. Just a thought or two that this is part of life… A part of life I have experienced. Today, I can watch that movie with complete understanding of how someone can commit infidelity… it is just part of life.. looking at the title, I understand why it was called that. This stuff happens every day to people. I’ve change too ya know. I helped my W fix dinner. We had a great day.


I am not going to hide from anyone here. I know you can be happy in life after infidelity. My reason for posting here is because I made a promise to God. … so that I can encourage everyone facing infidelity somehow read my history. I want them to know how I solved my own happiness. It was with my own fortitude…. and 3rd party help from Retrouvaille. Retrouvaille is the reason my marriage was saved. I changed the way I communicate to people…. And my wife. I know you all can get what I have too.

how someone can go from my H's state of emotional constipation to an effective communicator or any semblance thereof over a weekend.
Oh don’t think it will happen over a weekend. But the seed will get a good growing start. But I am here to say, if YOU go Allgood…. and only YOU decide to change.. you will get what I am trying to say to you. You will figure out HOW, why, they teach what they do. If you both can somehow figure out that LOVE IS A DECISION , then in time, you will see slowing start to have feelings associated with happiness and they will again fill your soul… Why? Because you both are making the decision to love. Anyone can forgive and in time you will learn that too… You won’t ever forget, but you can be happy living with it. You learn how to speak up when you are not being loved in the most effective way, not controlling, but in a clear way that consequences of those actions affect a feeling. It then becomes your own choice to continue accepting those feelings.. or move to something different.


My relationship is as stong as ever. Why? Because we both made the decision to love and try hard to love each other everyday. You’ll hear some people give you some cockamamie story about how love is effortless.. Those people are living a life of innocents and I now believe that innocents can leads to misery time and time again.. EVERY relationship goes through.. Romance… then the hard part comes…. People get stuck in lust! Thinking that is love…. But to have good happy feelings all of the time takes effort… and work. I am sure there are couples that can do this naturally based on science, but very few can because I know it’s statically not possible.


True, a kiss every time we greet is part of it.. But that is just a mere fraction, a pittance. To want to always make your spouse “feel” good is hard. It takes more effort than that.

If your H has any intelligence at all, he too will see what he needs to do. The weekend will tell YOU a truth. Does he want the marriage or not. The reason you do this in a group is to be with others struggling, showing they want to make effort does place some peer pressure does come into play. He will witness real people overcoming situations you cannot believe. His effort will with prove without a doubt, if he truly wants the marriage. You will gain valuable knowledge about what he’s feeling. I bet you find out what we all suspect… he is afraid, lost hope, is giving up on your commitment to stay. Who really knows though until he unlocks what he feels.


I read about so many SI’er saying about D.. When you know, you know. You will know after this weekend… or you both will continue the next few weekends.

This won’t be some Holy roller weekend. Yes, prayers will be said.. maybe at the beginning and maybe each day when you leave. It is not about religion.

Just go sign up and asked him to go for you. See what he says. If he goes, you know he wants you, if not, then make your own judgment.

Once the weekend is over.. I think you both will find it VERY REWARDING! If he loves you.. You will get some beautiful letters... You can open up and let him know how you feel... I cannot tell you that you won't feel some hurt, nor him. The feelings you have today may hurt him.. they hurt you. But they will get known... if he tries the slightest.

If you don’t, then you will be certain of any decision to D this summer. You will be 100% sure.

I know you are afraid of knowing the end.. That is the real issue isn't it?

But with an end always comes a new beginning...

[This message edited by trynhard at 11:19 AM, January 17th (Monday)]


Posts: 2635 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 11:06 AM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Honest...
Yay, to me. I bought Nicotine gum and am planning on working toward quitting the cancer sticks!!
My W's best friend has now gone 2 weeks with no light! Heck, if she can do it, anyone can... Just start!

Posts: 2635 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 11:42 AM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Allgood
Oh don’t think it will happen over a weekend.
I will say this.. My wife looked me square in the face that weekend and told me in the most sincere voice... "I want to spend the rest of my life with only you."

Shall I elaborate how I feel today about those words?
A 10 of 10!.. Maybe kinda Like that time you got that bonus at your work… but double that amount.... or maybe like eating the finest a slab of bread pudding at the Per Se… can you feel me?

or do I get one of these...

[This message edited by trynhard at 11:43 AM, January 17th (Monday)]


Posts: 2635 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 12:15 PM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I know that my posts are usually optimistic and encouraging but I still have some very dark moments, days, weeks, etc.
For me... the LTA was extremely traumatic.I definitely suffered from PTSD, still do.
And, even after dealing with this for 4 yrs I still have my triggers.
December and January are especially triggering months for me.
I had first discovered some suspicious activity on the computer in Dec. 2006 and began tracking his activity. The entire month was extremely stressful as I watched things slowly unravel.
Finally on New Years day I found a very incriminating email and with the week I had the whole sordid story.
I still remember the exact moment when I realized that this was a full blown affair...not an 'inappropriate friendship' like he had been trying to tell me for the past few days...
That moment of clarity was so painful... it could not have hurt more if he had stabbed me in the heart with a knife.
I knew.
and then... it still took me a whole night of crying, screaming, pleading etc. to finally get him to admit that it had gone on for 5 yrs!
I was shattered....

there's a scene in the movie 'Amelie' when the lead actress feels like she just wants to die or disappear and in the film it shows her just dissolving into a puddle right there on the floor of the restaurant...
that was me...
except it would have looked more like a glass statue of a woman shattering into a million pieces right before your eyes......

well, anyway... that was my experience with d-day....

and.. to say that it has been a long, arduous journey to get to this point is putting it mildly.

well, I'm writing because I need some support and advice.

I got through the holidays very well...so well in fact, that I surprised myself.

I did have triggers...lots of them..but,I somehow managed to push them out of my mind and focus on the present.
I stayed focused on how wonderful everything was in my marriage now...
I focused on how nice it was to have the whole family together.
I focused on how good it was that our long term marriage had been saved and that it was better in so many ways..etc. etc.

so, what's the problem you ask?

well... I guess that maybe I'm like that little kid..that tries so hard to sit still in church or at school etc. and then lets it all out as soon as he runs out the door?

Maybe that's what it is...
that I struggled so hard to stay focused on not allowing the triggers to get to me that now... after the holidays..after my d-day antiversary... I couldn't maintain that stoic attitude...

I was hit with a bunch of new triggers last week.. and managed to fight them off.

(I just had a flash of Wonder Woman. remember her? she would deflect bullets by crossing her arms and using these bullet proof wrist bands! well that was me... trigger hits... I manage to fight it off... another trigger..boom! I push it away)
Until...I couldn't take it anymore...

it was Friday night..

after a long hard week at work and I just melted..

I wanted ..no, I needed my husband to comfort me..

I wanted to share with him that I had been fighting off all of these triggers...

I wanted him to comfort me.
and...

I had figured out before what I needed from him.
I had told him.

That the way he responds when I trigger is not working.

What he does now is jump up and run away from me saying that he can't take this anymore!

He usually gets in a car and drives away... goes out to a bookstore, has some coffee, he has even gone to a movie etc.

I know he has to fight off his urge to drink and so these methods of dealing with stress may have been suggested by AA members etc.

But...it is the worst thing for me.

A lot of my PTSD has to do with feelings of abandonment...
so his running away from me does not help me in any way.

I have told him this... that what I need when I trigger is for him to come closer, to hold me, to comfort me...and... that he needs to say something positive about me and negative about the OW....

I know..I know...childish maybe... but, that's what I figured out in my little brain... that's what would make me feel better....

but..you know what?
he can't do it...not ever...

on Friday...when I talked about how triggery it was for me to drive by his old place of work and where the OW still works....and how I also had to drive by the restaurant parking lot where the BJ parking lot is....

he just jumped up...

as far away from me as possible and demanded that I had to stop this!

I had to stop bringing this up!

That I always want to do this.
All I want to do is talk about the LTA and the OW.

All I want is for him to say a thousand times that the OW was an evil person...

well, he was not going to put up with this anymore...and he was leaving...

so, he left..and drove somewhere for a 1/2 hr or so...

then he came home... and we did not discuss anything.

I slept in the spare bedroom.
I have stayed there on Fri,Sat, and Sun night....

we have had minimum discussions during the day...just business... this was in the mail etc.

he seems to kind of like this I think...

it feels a bit like the pre d-day days...

him watching endless hours of sports on TV...us ..minimally interracting...the only thing that would make it perfect for him would be occasional sex...

but, if we never had another 'heavy' intimate discussion for as long as we lived...he would be happy about that.

so, funny, huh?

here I am encouraging everyone to go to Retrouvaille to help with communication and here I am...
the one difference is that both my husband and I have done a ton of therapy...

really a lot more than the average couple.

6 months of MC (2 different counselors), he did 1 and 1/2 yrs of IC, I have been in IC since d-day....he did sessions with a minister....he did 90 AA meetings in 90 days...then 5 days per week of AA for 3 yrs... now he goes to AA 1-2 x per week...

and still I need more....

I especially wanted the men to respond because I do think that women are different...

we are talkers, we often need to talk it all out...

men..not so much...

so eventhough you are BS...

I wonder what the men think?
how much 'talking' is too much?

right now.. I feel like he is emotionally abusing me...
and guess what?
that's what he feels I am doing to him......

[This message edited by njgal480 at 1:45 PM, January 17th (Monday)]


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 12:42 PM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((njgal)))
I'm so sorry that you are having to handle your stress alone when what you've said you need is for him to follow steps A, B, C and D. No, you know what? I'm not sorry. I'm pissed off. You communicated what you need, and he was unwilling or unable to give those things to you. So now what? I have no advice, because in the past what I've done in the same situation is to leave my H to himself and get my needs met by friends or family. And that seemed to work, except it didn't. You did your part. You communicated your needs and, if your story is true and unbiased, you did it calmly and clearly. He failed. He gets an F. He needs to repeat a grade, I think.

So, I ask again, now what?


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 12:54 PM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

so, I have told him this... that what I need when I trigger is for him to come closer, to hold me, to comfort me...and... that he needs to say something positive about me and negative about the OW....
I know..I know...childish maybe... but, that's what i figured out in my little brain... that's what would make me feel better....

First, NJGal, there is nothing childish at all in what you ask for - it is what you need, you have made it very clear, it is not an unreasonable request.
One of the things that is hardest for the FWS to accept is the time it takes for us to recover. Our mantra here is - LTA = LTRecovery. Until a FWS gets this, they are part of the problem in prolonging our recovery.
Let me just add (other than lots and lots of hugs ) is that unfortunately no matter how well we are doing in our R and healing we still have not fully escaped the rollercoaster ride. The only difference is that the ups and downs and those extreme lows that we experience are (at least one should hope) fewer and farther between and the intensity is much less than in those first one to two years post d-day.
You have come so far and yes, you have been amazingly supportive and encouraging, but don't be so hard on yourself. It is not unusual nor unexpected to have an occasional setback, especially when you have worked so hard to confront multiple triggers. Maybe, instead of trying to "fight off" all those triggers, try to deal with each of them as they come along, even if just to let us know about them and have us help you through them.
I often don't share my triggers with my H anymore unless it's a biggie, but I do talk them through with a friend if I need to.
Talk to us, lean on us. If you're like me, you worry that it will discourage the newbies, or those in the early stages of R. But I don't think they will mind (will you???) if we share our weak moments too because when they see us regain our strength and determination it shows them that these times can be overcome.
I do wish your H would see how beneficial it would be to just wrap his arms around you and hold you while you cried. No words are necessary sometimes, just knowing that they acknowledge our pain and are there to see us through it, is more healing than anything they could possibly say, IMHO.
((((((((((NJGal)))))))))


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 12:59 PM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

NJGal - I'm so sorry! Why don't you post here more when you are feeling triggery? Maybe that would help manage it a bit. That your H won't do what you ask is just stupid. My H does the same thing. Just told him last week about even acknowledging that I'm sad would go a long way - and a hug if you don't know what to say. Don't ask me - I have no idea why they can't do what seem so natural to us. Although, I will say, my H had said to me during that conversation that when I "always" look sad, then it's just my personality at that point - there's nothing to comfort.
I totally understand why his response in leaving you (even temporarily) is disconcerting for the reasons you stated. I would react the same way and want the same things you stated under the circumstances. I don't think it's childish, it's just maybe a feeling of vulnerabilty that as an adult you don't necessarily face.

((NJGal))

Tryn:

I know you are afraid of knowing the end.. That is the real issue isn't it?

No, that's not it. It's mostly that I think it would be a waste of time for us. In second place, even I think it sounds like Hell on Earth. Now, if I thought this was going to be a collaborative process, with my H and I both giving it 200% rather than just going through the motions, I would give it the effort.

Again, I am aware that this has meant a lot to your marriage, and I have certainly seen many other people on this site rave about it as well, so I would be really naive to think I, who knows very little about Retro, can accurately gauge its effectiveness more than those that have attended. SO, that's not what I'm saying. It must be a very good program, I just don't know that it suits my needs. My H should be damn crystal clear as to whether he wants this marriage or not. I shouldn't have to go to Retro to determine that. If he comes to me this week and tells me he will do anything, than Retro will be on the table after I see some sincerity and effort from him.

And, yes, I can be very stubborn/pig-headed.


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
old dipstick
♂ Member
Member # 25598
Default  Posted: 1:14 PM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

njgal.

I am sorry to hear that you are having this hard time. I think that you are right when you say that you think that some of this has been brought on by holding back and fighting off the triggers.

You H is running away. He does not want to talk about all this. I agree that you women do want to talk about things more than we do. However, when it comes to talking about something that someone has done wrong, the bad person does not want to discuss this. My W is a good example. She is all for talking about many subjects. Her A is not one of those subjects. So not wanting to talk is based partly on the subject matter. When he says he can not take this anymore he probably really does feel that way. (not that i think he is right about how he handles this) My W has said the same thing to me.

It is sad that his reaction is to run away while yours is to want him to comfort you. I imagine he feels guilty and does not want to see you suffer. He may also think that if he is out of sight you will not be as mad because your object of anger is not right in front of you.

I do know that if someone else had posted what you just wrote, njgal would be posting a very helpful and informative reply, full of much needed support. I hope that what I said helps in some way. I know that others will be here with much better advice and comments than what I have said. This is a roller coaster with so many ups and downs. I hope you get started on the up sometime soon. Hugs njgal.

Hugs to the tribe.
Dip.


Her WW 60
Me BH 60
M 36 yr
D-day#1 fall of 76 OM#1 2NS
D-day#2 summer of 89 OM#2 LTA 8 yrs OM#3 Short Term A


Posts: 751 | Registered: Sep 2009
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 1:17 PM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I posted the link to this song the other day but I'm not sure if anyone checked it out so I thought I'd post the lyrics as well as the link.

This song to me is what every FWS needs to say to their BS.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BdPflCzqYM
The Reason by Hoobastank

I'm not a perfect person
There's many things I wish I didn't do
But I continue learning
I never meant to do those things to you
And so I have to say before I go
That I just want you to know

I've found a reason for me
To change who I used to be
A reason to start over new
And the reason is you

I'm sorry that I hurt you
It's something I must live with every day
And all the pain I put you through
I wish that I could take it all away
And be the one who catches all your tears
That's why I need you to hear

{ From: http://www.elyrics.net/read/h/hoobastank-lyrics/the-reason-lyrics.html }
I've found a reason for me
To change who I used to be
A reason to start over new
And the reason is you

And the reason is you
And the reason is you
And the reason is you

I'm not a perfect person
I never meant to do those things to you
And so I have to say before I go
That I just want you to know

I've found a reason for me
To change who I used to be
A reason to start over new
And the reason is you

I've found a reason to show
A side of me you didn't know
A reason for all that I do
And the reason is you

ETA - this link for the lyrics lets you download it to a cell phone's ringtone. Anyone just a little bit tempted?

[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 1:29 PM, January 17th (Monday)]


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 1:45 PM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow. That was some catching up. It’s taken me so long that I don’t have time to post!!! But, quickly here……

njgal
You said this:

Now, as far as hanging out goes, he is fun. If I were picking out a friend to do something with, he would be in the top 10.
and then this
What he does now is jump up and run away from me saying that he can't take this anymore!
He wants the good stuff, but not the bad. He wants you to be happy and fun, but not triggering and down. I don’t really understand about wanting him to say bad things about OW – as you know, it was not about her anyway, so what’s the point? You need positives, not negatives. FWH has never said a bad thing about MOW. I have never asked him to either. The worst thing he said was that she was jealous of me and it wasn’t an attractive trait. If I’m down or triggering, I don’t expect FWH to lay anything out re the affair. Just hug me, hold me and make me feel safe. And I totally understand why he doesn’t want to talk about the affair anymore. It’s done. Finished. In his history box. He doesn’t want to revisit the guilt. It’s a sort of meeting half way. You told him what you needed, but I think it sounds a step too far. But. Having said that, running off only exacerbates the problem, sets you spinning down and creates a chasm between you. Can I suggest you reach out?

I don’t try to be Wonder Woman and deflect the triggers. I have them wash over me, like a fast incoming tide. I journal, vent, read/write here, call a friend or go to the gym.

Hugs honey. It’s a horrible, horrible thing to go through.

BBL if I have time.


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3327 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 2:07 PM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

njgal480

I am so sorry to read that you are having a bad patch just now. As old_dipstick said, I can imagine all of the understanding and supportive advice you would have for me when I would post about a bad time. ((njgal480)) There was a line in your post that jumped out at me,

I was hit with a bunch of new triggers last week.. and managed to fight them off.

It may be semantics, but I do not believe that it is good to fight triggers off. We need to experience them, identify why the occur, and acknowledge them. Eventually the smaller issues pushed away without dealing with them builds up pressure until there is an emotional explosion we cannot suppress. I do not always bring them up with FWW, but I do bring them to SI or one of the few friends I can discuss them with. If nothing else I take some time to work through what I am feeling and why. I try to not fight them off, but to experience and understand them

As for Mr. njgal480 running away, I can empathize with him. I am not saying this is good behavior on his part, but understandable. I have struggled to be in the moment and respond rationally when FWW would be upset with me and venting. Part of this is that the emotional feelings were just coming too quickly for me to process in "real time". I would just shut down and my "deer in the headlights" face would appear. I have read about this in many books, it is not unusual for men to struggle with intensely emotional conversations (or fights). Our brains are not wired for rapidly processing emotions. In fact, for our ancestors it would be counter-productive to focus on the emotions and feelings when threatened. Rather than focus on why we are scared, our body’s are designed to focus thought and energy on physical action. Narrowing perceptions to the immediate issue, increase blood flow to major muscle groups to fight and defend, shut down processing of "extraneous" information. We have evolved enough to know we cannot kill or beat physically beat off people (our wives) when we feel attacked. There have been times it has been a struggle not to hit FWW and make her stop when she would really come after me. This leaves the option Mr. njgal480 is employing, to run away to somewhere safe.

Another aspect of this is that as men we want to fix the problem, that is what most of us do. It took a lot of time for me to learn to listen to FWW and let her vent. I still fail at this and try to problem-solve when she just needs to vent. For Mr. njgal480, the problem you are bringing to him is not one that he can solve or make better, so it is painful and we feel like a failure as a man or husband because our W is hurting and we cannot fix it. So much more if the hurt is something we inflicted on her.

There are two books especially that have helped me with this, both of you may find profit in reading these books. You Just Don't Understand by Tannen and Crucial Conversations by Patterson, Grenny, etAl. The first is a complete review of the differences between men and women in communication. The latter provides examples and techniques in having emotionally difficult conversations in the family or in the workplace.

honest, good luck on kicking the smoking. I am still struggling with this after starting back up about 8 months ago.

iwam, I read you posts, and I feel for you too. Your self-sacrifice in trying to have a better outcome for your DS must extract a huge emotional toll. ((iwam))

allgood, as someone else posted, there are many not too expensive options for living. They are not great, but I lived in one for awhile. I think that there is something to be said for the "clean break". Look at the struggles iwam has in trying to co-habitate. He and his behaviors will always be right in your face until there is separation. I also agree that he may not see living in the basement as the beginning of the end, but as just another phase.

It has been a somber day for me today. Part is the rain all day, but most is FWW triggering hard last night. We got back from a day on the boat, and she uploaded pictures to the computer. I had planned to do this for her, so I had my "account" opened. When she started working to save and file the pictures she was in my picture files. She came across pictures I have of two of her OM, photos he took of her, photos of her w BIL at events I was not at, and many old pictures I had scanned in to convert from photographs to digital. What I did not know is that these photos included pictures of her at events with OM from her first M, and many, many old photos that triggered painful memories for her from our life together and before.

When I came in from grilling chicken, she was very quiet. When I asked she said nothing was wrong, but then told me and asked me to just ignore her for awhile. A few minutes later I found her sobbing in the living room. I asked if I could sit with her, and I held her hand. She told me about what she was feeling. We went on to have an OK evening, and she was heading to bed as she had to get up early. She came out a few minutes later and asked if I would lay with her. She sobbed and cried for quite a while before calming down. She was depressed by "how stupid" she had been allowing people to take advantage of her, how much of her life and our time she had wasted being mad at people for not making her happy when she needed to be happy from within. She thought the therapy after her first M had "fixed" her, and that she was a strong and successful person, but now feels she was not. She told me about stopping to see the OM from her first M sometime when we were M. The date is not clear. I asked her why she stopped and if they had lunch. She panicked remembering the questions (interrogations) from me after dday. She thought I was going to go back to that time and we would lose all of our progress. She was afraid I would leave her.

I can tell she is still affected by those feelings today. When I think about how it felt holding her last night as she hated herself, I can only imagine what Mr. njgal480, Mr. allgoodnamesgone, and other WS's must feel. They already had weak self-confidence, and now (if they are truly remorseful), they must face the very painful and selfish things they did. I can see where it would be easier for a WS to D and leave just so they did not have to face the triggers that we BS's must represent to them.

((Tribe))

--Ats

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 2:13 PM, January 17th (Monday)]


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3961 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 2:16 PM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

UKgirl,
Not for nuthin', but the "picking a friend" part was me.

But your post was helpful to me because it actually reflects Mr. Nell's mindset.

I think NJgal's situation is generally a little different (maybe?) in that her WH/FWH is generally doing everything well except helping her through triggers. What you suggest is what I do... find that support elsewhere. But is that really healthy? I don't know, I'm just posing the question.

Now, if he couldn't handle the immediate trigger thing, but came back later and dealt with it then, that would be one thing. To come home after 1/2 hour and say, "darling, I'm so sorry that you were having a hard time and that I panicked and ran. I needed time to calm myself down so that I could help you" and then do what NJgal has already explained she needs... but that's not what happened. He just ignored her triggers completely. I'm sure it's tough on him but too frickin' bad. He can borrow her big-girl panties and deal. Is it really too much to ask for some empathy? A little, "I'm so sorry that you have bad thoughts because of what I did?" A little holding and using words of affirmation? Even if it's "you're the best woman I have ever met," I'm guessing NJgal could do without the "...and OW was a complete mess." But to run and hide? No. Wildly not okay.

On the other hand, if this is the only thing he has problems with, and if NJgal is okay with avoiding him when her triggers hit, and then coming back and sharing everything ELSE with him, then maybe it's a minor glitch. A small hurdle. Nothing that coffee with an understanding friend won't cure.

I hope that's all it is.

[This message edited by ImNellNow at 2:24 PM, January 17th (Monday)]


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 2:18 PM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

NJGal, I hope you are feeling better with all of the support you are getting here from everyone.

And, the lyrics to "The Reason" - very fitting. However, I must add, for any that did not view it, that the video, if I recall correctly, was a bunch of guys robbing a bank and then accidentally running a girl over in the get away car. Just sayin'.
Lol


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 2:22 PM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ats,
I am constantly impressed by you.


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 2:25 PM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

njgal:

first off, some major hugs...

(((((njgal))))))

now, i think you need to have a conversation with your husband that is non threatening to him and his inability to hear about his past affair......i really believe if he feel NON threatened that he will be able to do what you need him to do....he really has stepped up and got straight and did listen....i think though he has reached a pinnacle moment in time where he cannot deal with it, so he runs...

njgal to mr njgal: hon, i do not want to bring up the past anymore then you do....what i would like is for me to just tell you that i am hurting, i will not tell you what the caused the hurt unless you ask, the hurt could be somethine mundane that has nothing to do with our past or it could be something related our past....when i tell you that i am hurting i will tell you what i need....for instance, hon i am hurting and would like for you to hold me and tell me that we are ok.....or hon i am hurting and i would like to have some space to work out my shit in my own head...or hon i am hurting can you tell me that you love me....or even hon i am hurting, i need to forget, help me forget and lets go out to dinner tonite........

it is direct and hopefully non threatening to him...and njgal you need to hold up your end and choose not to tell him what the triggers are, and don't even use the word trigger....sometimes just words can cause someone to shut down...and that is what he is doing, he is shutting down....

if it works its a win win for both of you....once he complies with whatever you ask of him...hopefully you will feel better..if not, tell him what you need next...

like in: i am glad you held me, still feeling a bit down, hon can you please make me a cup of hot chocolate, and maybe some more hugging.....or hon, dinner was great, still need a bit more loving....hold me for a while....

if he asks what is making you hurt....i am going to ask you for the first few times not to tell him....even though you said you would...tell him maybe next time, because you don't want him to feel hurt and bad too....if he isists which i doubt, then tell him in a factual way, short and succinct.....

i truly believe that we do not have to hide our hurts...that is not what any of needs or wants in a partnership....but i also believe that a truly remorseful ws does not have to have their past thrown in their face over and over again....it really serves no purpose...as much as we may trigger and live with it day in and day out, the time comes on the journey to let it go, make the choice to let it go...deal with the pain without putting the ws on the defense for it...if the ws is truly remorseful they will feel the pain with you.....

njgal....i hope this works...because i think what you could both gain would be so key to you moving on which is ulitmately what he not only wants but needs...he needs to know that he is not serving a life sentence as do you.....

and yes it sucks that yo uneed to be the one to take this high road...he should be willing to do what it takes wheneva until....but the sad truth is he cannot...most people cannot live with their past thrown in their face everytime they begin to relax....it puts them back on the defensive and to that ugly place that is anything but peaceful...and at this point you both deserve peace...


honest: quitting smoking...YAY....i know how hard it is...replace the habit with another...like knitting....it will keep your hands busy...and get lots and lots of sucking candies...lollipops are really good...they help with the oral fixation...and they don't pack on the pounds like so many other things that i did when i quit....i was also preggo at the time,...so that oral fixation for food was so natural...the extra weight was anything but natural...


lostsoul: what does your husband say about working with this ow....and how can contact be extremely limited to null....null being the prefferred choice....


allgood: if you do not do retrovaille and you end up parting with your husband will you have a "what if", will you wonder if that would have actually helped...

i also believe that when its an intensive weekend, emotions run deep, strong and hard.....does not mean that he will come out of it being the new mr allgood, able to communicate his emotions in a single sitting...nope...more like you might just find a way towards each other, a way to find out what each needs from the other....and yes it will be a pain in the ass to schedule it, to have someone stay and care for your 4 kids.....and yes he will feel some major ambivalence about it, he may very well hate it, you both may end up hating it...but aside from asking for ahuge favor from someone to watch your kids you really have nothing to lose and everything to gain bu trying...exhausting all possible options so that YOU will have peace of mind going separate ways if thats what it comes down too...

look at it as the final last ditch effort...and let him know that is exactly what it is...you could put the ball in his court and book it...let him know that if after this weekend at retro. if you both feel the same way, you will need to make plans to separate in july.....and if he says no, its off your shoulders...if he says yes...well then there may actually be some hope for him acquiring some brains....even if he retains his defeatest attitude of which i am sure he will...i really believe he will act like the martyr if he agrees....let him....you will know if he is really putting all he needs into it....if not, again you have your answer as does he.....

when you have such a sich where the emotions are completely charged, anything is possible....i went on a workshop weekend....i came home from the experience feeling whole again...it didn't help my marriage, but it did help me.....


fnf: when i first heard that song i was driving in my car and wishing that all the things that this man were singing pfm would be saying...and more then that i wished that he said them because he meant them....and i believe he has done some changing...he didn't though changed the most important part....he is still a liar....and thats the biggie i cannot and will not live with!!!


((((tribe)))))

[This message edited by iwantamiracle at 2:36 PM, January 17th (Monday)]


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 2:28 PM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

fnf,
Those lyrics are great. I did go to the website and view them. But I'm in more of a "Cry Me a River" place at the moment. In fact, that's what I was singing this morning in my car all the way to work (a half-hour commute). Yes, I am That Woman: the one who sings and car-dances. And I don't care, either.


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 2:41 PM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

because i take so damned long to post, there were several more posts after mine...


ats: i loved your post, more then that i love that both you and your wife are communicating.....you are working your way towards each other more and more.....so yay....i know it sucks that these bumps come along...but in a way the bumps, when worked through together help solidify your relationship because you are doing it TOGETHER!!!


nell: i sing, car dance too...

and btw i feel your anger these days ms nell.....lots of it...i hope you are finding a healthy release....like dancing, kickboxing...etc...

[This message edited by iwantamiracle at 2:42 PM, January 17th (Monday)]


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
old dipstick
♂ Member
Member # 25598
Default  Posted: 3:10 PM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

miracle.

Thr brass monkeys said no to the borrowing of their nuts. I may make them stay outside the next time we get a cold blast. I was pissed about all that anyway. It was colder than a well digger's ass and there I was, brass monkeys inside, me outside grilling, about to freeze mine off. What a dip I am.

ats.

Good job helping your W. I was pleased to see that she let you know just what she needed.

I grilled a nice, big, smooth turkey breast yesterday. It was not bad. BTW. You still have not given me any advice about grilling the pancakes!

Hugs to the tribe.


Her WW 60
Me BH 60
M 36 yr
D-day#1 fall of 76 OM#1 2NS
D-day#2 summer of 89 OM#2 LTA 8 yrs OM#3 Short Term A


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