I am thinking about asking my wife to marry me
Wow! It really is something to be proud of - that you have been able to really move on and forgive your wife. I am very pleased that you have been able to achieve this.
Good for you.
That is nice. Very cool. You both have worked very hard for this. So, are you gonna invite all of us to the wedding?
Hugs to the tribe.
Just wanted to say that both of my kids know about the LTA.They were 21 and 23 when I found out.I was such an emotional wreck-I had to explain why. And, then of course he moved out for 6 months.
My kids have been incredibly supportive throughout.
Of course they took my side at once.
My husband did speak to both of them after d-day and apologized to both of them.
And then...my kids saw our slow reconciliation process.
They have worried about me and have been angry and disppointed with their dad.
They have seen me melt down in tears and they have seen us reconcile.
When I asked them at one point would they have preferred not to knoww any of the details, they both emphatically said:"No!". That they were glad that they knew what was going on and would not have wanted to remain in the dark.
I was particularly surprised that my son said that because he is that typical 20 something that does not open up about private matters to his mom and I thought would not want to know all the yucky details of his parents sordid love life!
But, he said he was glad that I opened up to them.
It changed my relationship with my children.
They grew up and started taking on a much more adult role. It wasn't about being babied by their over protective mom anymore.
They started talking to me more....really opening up.
And, they have accepted their father back into the family with open arms.They see the changes that he has made in himself. They see that his behavior toward them, me , the world has changed. My husband used to be a lot more cynical, grouchy, angry etc. Not anymore...his wife and his children come first-not his own selfish needs....and the kids notice it both in big and little things that he does.
They also see that he has been working his tail off trying to make me happy and to make amends.
That is what our children want for us...the same thing that we want for them... to see us happy and for us to be loved and valued by our spouse.
So, that's my story about how my kids dealt with the news of the LTA.
My husband and I had a recommitment ceremony in a minister's office...just the two of us... to mark the day he moved back home after our 6 month separation.
I needed something to make that day special...I didn't want to just let it go by with a whimper..as if it were just another day.
It was a milestone in our reconciliation process.
And, to top it off it was our 30th wedding anniversary.
I wanted to reclaim that date.
So we had the ceremony, exchanged new rings (to signify our new beginning), and we stayed at a lovely B&B overnight.
It did help me alot.
After that I did not have any triggers when my wedding anniversary date came around because the date had taken on a new meaning for me.
And the new rings were also very helpful for me.
I had taken mine off immediately after d-day...and I noticed a few days later when he came back to get more things...that my husband had taken his wedding band off also.
I commented on it..and he said that he realized that he had disgraced everything that the ring had stood for.
This was just a few days post d-day but it was the beginning of R.
I saw an inkling of hope...as I realized that he 'got' how serious the LTA was.
So, many times after that..when I was ready to throw in the towel.. the new ring on my finger would catch my eye and remind of the new commitment that he had made to me on that day.
I am very happy for you and your wife, Tryin.
[This message edited by njgal480 at 6:49 PM, December 29th (Wednesday)]
njgal - thanks for your perspective on telling your kids. Since DDay I have held fast to the idea of not telling them about their father's LTA but lately I get more and more the feeling that we are going to have to S in order for him to really "get" the gravity of the situation. I really do understand why a WS would not want to bring up talk of the A every day, but I have told my FWH over and over that I want, no NEED, for him to acknowledge that he is being allowed a 2nd chance with me, that he is totally and completely at fault for the A and to show me in deed that I am the most important thing in his life. I would say that he does these things about 50% of the time and he never brings up the A or the OW unless I do. He even admitted that when certain commercials come on TV he does see how that could remind me of the A, but he simply does not say or do anything to give me reassurance that he acknowledges what he has done and that he is sorry. Maybe I'm looking for too much but I've been very clear about how important it is to me. I'm in a kind of Catch-22....if I don't bring up my fears or negative feelings then he thinks that everything is "normal" again, but if I do then he says that I'm wallowing in my feelings of anger. So it usually works out that I hold everything inside until I have a meltdown and then he gets all apologetic and will finally say how sorry he is. This is something that we have to talk to the new MC about and frankly I'm afraid to even get my hopes up. He talks like he wants to make changes in himself, but I don't see that he's doing or acting any differently.
If we S, and if our kids ask, I will tell them about the LTA. I hate lying to them and have only told them that we are having problems and are seeing a MC. For now they are satisfied with that amount of information.
The post-nup - I have put that on hold for now. FWH and I are to start seeing a new MC next week, if he can once again reschedule the appt. plus I'm going for a second interview tomorrow for a full-time job. I didn't plan on looking for a full-time job but this one just kind of fell into my lap. I don't want to go back to work full-time but at this point I will take the job if it's offered to me in order to feel less trapped. If I stay in this M it will be because I choose to stay, not because I feel like I don't have any other options. Although I have a huge fear that if we D, I will never find anyone else and will be lonely for the rest of my life. I sound so pathetic! I know, I know, everyone feels that way, but as most of you here know, for us that fear is very real and is now a part of my life. I will get over it, right?
Honest, how's it going? Are you hanging in there? Let us know how you're doing.
For those of you who are reconciled or on their way, how did your spouse explain how his/her feelings for the AP changed post DDay. For a lot of you, I believe it was that your spouse came to the realization that it really wasn't love, it was something else they were seeking from the AP (Tryn, Ats) and NJGal, I know it's a larger picture associated with your H's sobriety, but I wonder if this is a topic worthy of exploration in mc.
My H will to this day deny he loved OW, despite having said it to her (repeatedly) and having shown it through his actions. He has never looked back on the A and said - I was in some kind of fog, etc. that made me engage in this kind of obsessive relationship with OW, he's never looked back at OW and said she wasn't what I thought she was at the time. In fact, a month after DDay, when I found the secret phone and I thought we were going to break it off, it was pretty clear to me that he was going to go back to her.
So, this isn't something that is plaguing me, I guess I read something in another thread with a link about lost loves and nc not working or something and it just got me thinking about how does the WS go from loving the AP to having no feelings for AP (which would be ideal)?
I always have been aware my W love us both. Of course it is love. Your H just doesn't understand what love is. I don't think he lying to you, he is just ignorant. People can love two people at once. Loving someone in a phycial way is love. Touching, holding, having sex is all part of love.
You do know I can give you love right now. Let me do it. I think you are attractive. I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I admire your courage and strenght to fight for marriage. I think of you are one wonderful person for so many reason I could list... and take pride I have had the chance to chat with you. You allgood are a good woman. I mean every bit of that from the bottom of my soul.
Allgood, after dday, my wife share so many feeling with me in so many different ways. Both words and actions. Retro was the most meaningful way.
Remember, my wife talked with OM for a month afterwards too... Everything changes... You can stop loving too. Love is a choice.
I could choose not to ever love you again by never posting to you again... with affirmation like I did above. Do you follow what I mean? Love is complicated, isn't it? lol
[This message edited by trynhard at 10:37 AM, December 30th (Thursday)]
I guess I can accept that someone can love 2 people at once even though I've never experienced it. I don't think my H loved me and OW. I know I didn't feel like he loved me during his A. He was a raging A-hole to me, to be honest.
I guess I'm just trying to understand how those feelings just stop when it's not caused by a natural death - like the love doesn't die because of something missing or unsatisfactory in the relationship,but because it has to stop. A choice is just made to stop having feelings for someone? Is that it? If so, that is a completley foreign concept to me.
Anyway - I think I will raise the issue in MC anyway. My H will be thrilled.
Tryn, I am so very happy for you. A recommittment ceremony would be a wonderful thing for you and FWW. A new anniversary to celebrate.
My own 180 is working for me. It's an internal thing. Before when I tried 180, it was really me just acting cold and distant from WH. That just made me feel uncomfortable and him just mad. I also tried 180 in that I was trying to focus on myself, but that turned out to be a "f**k you" type of attitude that started to permeate my relationship with everyone else too.
This time, I really believe it's different. This time, I think it's in a healing way.
This time, I am NOT putting all my focus and thoughts on WH. "What is he feeling? What is he doing? What is he going to do/what DID he do? etc etc" I think it's switching from a codependent thinking.
Now, I am trying to focus on me in a way that if I get upset, SI advice starts to come it, like "Breathe", kind words and advice from YOU , my fellow LTA's come in my heart. I tell myself it's ok to be upset and I am going to self soothe, not to look at WH to do it. That was my major abandonment issue I think.
Right now, I'm acting kindly to myself, the kids, and to WH. Why to WH? Because it makes me uncomfortable and upset to do otherwise. I put up a few boundaries that I'm going to stick to and although I may get upset if they are broken I will not let it devastate it me.
I had complained over the years that all the money was being spent overseas and not enough here. Our living room furniture that was bought at a cheap place is falling apart. WH says we need new furniture. So we went out and picked out a new couch and loveseat.
I guess this can be very confusing. It could also start "reeling" me in. I started to understand the "compartmentalization" that some of the WS's do. It was easy to forget for a while when we went shopping and DS12 came with us that all was ok. Then when we are paying for it, WH's phone rings and it's OW. He walks away and turns it off.
Reality hits again.
But it didn't devastate me like usual. I actually smiled to myself and was glad for the reminder. This is all superficial stuff. It doesn't carry emotional weight or being close. It stopped me from being reeled in. I just told myself, we need this furniture and not to be sitting on a couch that is literally falling apart. This is a practical thing, not a sign of love. I will not be reeled in.
I will work on making myself strong internally, but not neglect others, especially my kids. I don't have to change my nature of being a kind person, even to WH.
Like when I am a parent or a teacher. You can be friendly, but NOT a friend??KWIM?
I'm finally getting that the 180 is NOT a selfish thing, but in the long run will be a gift to myself and my children.
Thank you all for listening to this long post.
God bless you all.
And, M3 - where are you.....?...
And, in your case.. I have always said that because of your husband's tangled and secretive financial situation...that your best bet for your security and your children's security is to get as much up front from him as possible. Because he is in a foreign country he could very easily renege on any kind of child support, etc.
So...why don't you take him up on his offer now...and get more new furniture for the house? something for your son's room? or get the repairs done that you have been postponing- new roof? or new appliances?
If you do stay in the house it will make life easier for you and if you end up selling it will help that go faster...
just some thoughts....
Your question bothered me for years after d-day.
I am a very logical person...and so much about the LTA did not make sense to me....
But, the thing that nagged at me the most was how could my husband and the MOW go NC so totally and so completely right after d-day and never look back?
How could this LTA that was like an addiction for my husband....( because he would say that he wanted to stop it for many years, but couldn't...etc.) How could he be so into this LTA that he could not stop for 5 yrs and then.... when I found out...poof! just like magic it was over?
Same for the MOW...even more so for her... because my husband stated that she was definitely the pursuer...that he would try many times to 'end' the LTA by distancing himself from her and avoiding her calls, emails, etc. but that she was relentless....
I have emails from her to back this up where she writes that she is sick and tired of begging him to let her give him a BJ...etc. etc.
so, she did pursue him even when he was brushing her off in the past....
why did she back off this time?
By the time d-day came around her husband had moved out of her house... so she was alone...
and after d-day my husband had moved out....
she knew that fact as I had emailed her that they were both now free to pursue whatever.........
why didn't she pursue him anymore?
Now, that they were both separated?
Yes,my husband had told her over the phone (in my presence ) that it was over.. but it was a very convoluted night... he was TTing me at this point...and she could tell that I had just found out and he wasn't telling me all of the details etc.
And then, he left her a voicemail the next morning...which he says to this day he cannot remember what he said-my guess it was never contact me again.my wife knows, etc.
but... that's not that much of a "NO"...considering she wouldn't take No for an answer before...
He was on his own for 6 months and I know for a fact (due to various sneaky investigative methods on my part) that they never called each other or emailed each other again...not once...
How does that happen?
Well, its taken me years to get to this point...and in my husband's case I have to say that it is different from Tryin's scenario.
My husband insists that he never loved the OW ( and now, I do believe that).
I think it is true in this case because of the way the affair started.
The MOW was a serial cheater. She was a veteran. She knew her way around affairs...especially how to keep a LTA going.
I suspect that she is a SA.
Now, female SAs are different from male SA.
Female SAs are not into the affairs for sex per se... they are into the power that they feel from seducing men...
especially seducing a happily married man ...because that makes them feel like they are so....sexy...and so special...
that this man...who had never cheated before and who is reluctant to cheat now...will finally cross the line with her because of her magical, seductive powers.
She started in on my husband 1 year before the LTA began... it was one year of seduction...and it was very overt.
She never said it was about love of any kind.
She said that she was very sexually attracted to him and wanted to give him a BJ (although she used much more graphic language).
Seriously, this was his first inkling that she was 'into' him.
Pretty heady stuff for a middleage nerdy account type mid life crisis married guy, huh?
So... the LTA started out as a no strings attached...just for fun... sex and alcohol affair....
I think when an affair begins like that-has these unspoken guidelines then it is posssible for the affair partners not to fall in love.
They know the rules of what the affair is about.
No one will find out.
No one will get hurt.
No one will get divorced over this.
It will be our fun secret.
And since they were co-workers...my husband had even more 'rules' for himself- no money would be spent on this, and no family time would be spent on it either....all of the hook ups would be work related or just after work....
it was a real compartmentalized thing....and booze was definitely a big part of the attraction.
here he has a wife that has been begging him for years to stop drinking and always telling him how much she hates him drinking....
and here he has this female drinking buddy that is encouraging him to have another drink! and have some wild sex antics on the side to boot!
so, in this case I think that when reality set in....
he wanted no part of her anymore....
and she realized that he would not be such a fun partner anymore.
That he was angry with her because the secret had been found out!and now he had to deal with the fallout!
So, she did not even try to contact him...not wanting to hear his wrath at her for getting him into this mess to begin with!
Now...thats what I figured out in the case of this LTA... it was a very sexual affair with no talk or discussion of 'luv'. And never any discussions about the spouses...it was a fantasy compartment for both.
By the way... the MOW's husband finally divorced her, her kids found out about the LTA, thanks to me all of her co-workers know about it and she still does not express any regret or remorse about it at all.
[This message edited by njgal480 at 1:00 PM, December 30th (Thursday)]
Let me make some assumptions.. and Some Q's
Of course he love you... Did you make love to him during that time? You gave him love. Believe me when I say, a man making love to you is giving you love. This is the love of physical touch. This is very meaningful to a man. The emotions we have over this is something I will share if you need to know.
Did he ever try and tell you are pretty? Hot body? Smell good? Great with the kids? Think about it? That is love of affirmation.
Did he ever take you out to eat and paid for it? a birthday present? Stuff like that? This is the love of a gift
Did he ever say, I will pick up the kids? Did you ever ask him to do something that would help you out and he did it? This is the love of service.
Did he ever want to go on a vacation with you? Spend time just with the family and you? That is the love of quality time.
Feeling are different. I will say this, when I saw the picture of you H’s OW, she is nice looking, hot body and I can honestly say it would be fun to have sex with her. That is a feeling I have inside me. It is the feeling of lust, attraction… Do I call that love? No. Love is when you decide to pursue, affirm how hot she is, love her with physical touch.
You can choose to love or not. You cannot choose feelings. Feeling can come and go.
NJgal.. That song you gave me was so right for me. I listened to it several times and going to put it on my mp3… It really did choke me up. I hope you don’t mind my sharing… Andrew Peterson - Dancing In The Mine Fields..
Iwant.. My W wears a Lexus.. LOL.. I’m not sure she wants a chevy.. we have 2 in college ya know! I’m going to place some real thought in this… I plan on a token, but I’m not sure what it will be… It’s going to be something not so materialistic… something for her hippocampus..lol
[This message edited by trynhard at 12:05 PM, December 30th (Thursday)]
I do feel that in my marriage I have walked through minefields and have survived.
power that they feel from seducing men
I'm on vacation this week while W works. I met my friend at the casino for a fun day. Anyway, Young lady sits next to me and starts to flirt with me. I admit it made me "feel" good. She's asking me about my personal life.. married.. tells me I'm nice looking all that affirmation. After she had a few long Island Ice tea's, she gets more aggressive saying she needed a sugar daddy. Once she ran out of money, she's laughing and tells me she will show me her boobs if I give her a few dollars. I told her, Honey, you need to find a man that thinks with his dick. She got up and left.. lol
[This message edited by trynhard at 12:18 PM, December 30th (Thursday)]
Tryn: I don't consider some of the things you listed love. Yes, my H had sex with me while he also had sex with someone else. I do not consider that an act of love. I really don't. In fact, he stopped pursuing me for sex for lengthy periods of time. (Yes - he had to pursue it or it wasn't going to happen at this point in our marriage.) I think it was a physical release.
Did he say nice things to me: No. We functioned as roomates and co-parents. There was nothing loving about it. Yes, basic courtesies were exchanged, but to me, that's not love.
Man, I'm really starting to get riled up now...
My husband did eventually give me a very detailed timeline of the 5yr LTA...when, where, what happened (in terms of sexual contact etc.).
I wish the WS would understand that trickle truth and holding back just delays the recovery process or kills it altogether depending on what information is being withheld and for how long....
its like ripping off a bandaid....you can do it very slowly...and agonizingly...or..you can just rip it off, in one fell swoop and get it over with! and let the healing begin....
dragging it out can cause a wound to fester underneath.
After d-day I spoke with an old friend and lo and behold she opened up about the infidelity in her marriage!
(unbelievable, how common it is...but, that's a whole other topic).
Well, seems that her husband (her childhood sweetheart and lifelong best friend and soulmate) had had an affair 10 yrs previous and got the OW pregnant! The OW decided to have the baby and he (the husband decided to keep it all a secret from his wife for 10 yrs!
When she found out- that was the end of their long term marriage.
Ironically, if this man had fessed up right away, had included her in the decision making process, made it us against the OW and this awful situation.. I think she loved him enough that maybe the marriage could have survived.
It was the years of lies and deceit that did the marriage in....
so, coming clean about all the dirty secrets of the LTA as soon as possible is the only way to stand a chance for R....
in my opinion, at least.......
[This message edited by njgal480 at 1:06 PM, December 30th (Thursday)]