Laura, thank you so very much for your support. It really helps. I do feel like I'm going up a long, hard mountain of sorrows that never ends.
Ducklings!!!! It proves that they were "fucking" ducks that were really excited on that grass!!!
We're waiting for the pics!!
We're surviving a blizzard in NY. Thank God we just got some oil, as long as the electricity doesn't go out, we'll be ok. Imagine being snowbound with MY WH? <sigh>
Imagine being snowbound with MY WH?
Honest - that made me laugh!! I think I would have killed him by now!!! Hang in...you will be ok.
Allgood - I took up drinking and way too much of it. And I never drank before DDay. My New Year's resolution is....STOP THE DRINKING...and take care of me. I'm trying to talk myself into this!!!
Laura - the new baby ducks will end up to be fucking ducks also and then there will more ducks than your H will know what to do with. I bet they are cute though.
I just called him a dick and walked away...
Laura, No, you cannot control what others do. Maybe your H would have cheated, but then again, maybe not. If you have boundaries and your spouse has boundaries, you will not make choices that break a loving relationship. When I was 22, my W and I attended engagement encounters. We wrote in a notebook, a workbook and discussed boundaries. I dug that notebook out from that weekend encounter a while back. Back then, what I was doing just didn’t sink in. I could read it.. I didn’t have the serious needed to get married at that time. However, looking back, I had stronger boundaries verses my wife. As M move along in time, things just change too. The relationship becomes so different. Love means something different…
Laura, I made sure you saw my NUMBER ONE boundary… I will not being in a marriage that is not loving by both myself and my spouse. ( I love and follow the 5 languages of love..) See, when I was married, I never pursued to the bitter end why my wife stopped “wanting” me. She stopped initiating sex with me… Something just wasn’t right. I would wonder why she was angry with me for just living my life, we treated each other ok, but our love was not like it is today. My consequences were to spend more time on my job, my kids fun stuff… Over time, I grew to believe this is what marriage is supposed to be like… Marriage goes into phases…. I was in the disillusionment stage for most of my kids’ lives. The misery came once my W’s A was exposed. Today, like NJgal, FF, lostsoul, and many others, I can view the past of what it was… and today for what it is… I see ats moving toward the awaken part of his M just by that pic he posted.. That pic brought a smile to my face… I see ats as one great person and man… His W is lucky to have such a person… I can also realize that If my W does choose to be with another, I will move on this time. It’s important to be wise. If you are loving someone with all you heart and soul, forgive one.. and they repeat bad behavior, they are just not a good partner in life. It happens.
Honesttoafault.. There are things in your life you just cannot control. Your H is warped into believing that life is about having two wives. He hid his second wife because he knew you would disapprove. Your H has something seriously wrong with him. He is so F’d up, he somehow thinks you should accept him being superior and that for some reason you should be OK with him loving two people. You cannot control what others do. Today, he is controlling you with is money. You are the only one that has the power to end this control. Fear has overtaken you to believe he will harm you. I doubt that will happen and the statistics are in my favor. In your situation, you cannot fear words. He is not going to abandoned his children to the streets. I will say it again.. I think you need the courage and strength to find a job, work and accomplish something. You are so concerned with what he will do to you… because he controls you. You have two strong sons that will always support you in need. You somehow discount the values you can bring some employer. Companies want honest people, hardworking people… and with your college degree you are 1 of 7 in the US. That gives you a great advantage. You have the gift of time because you H is gifting you money. This gives you time to find the best possible job to fully support you. Don't accept any job not paying you what you need to fully support you should your H pick revenge. Put that resume together. Homemakers end up being the best employees when hired. The excitment of a new job, meeting new people, new things will make you happy and worthy.. You can end your H control over you.. It’s up to you!
[This message edited by trynhard at 8:51 AM, December 27th (Monday)]
About boundaries and would they have done it anyway?
well....if he had good boundaries in place Laura he would not have allowed himself to get that close to female co-workers...
that's what good boundaries mean...understanding the pitfalls and staying away from them.
and it is true that certain work environments are worse for infidelity than others-hospitals are notorious and so are airline employees...
I know about toxic work places because that did play a part in my husband's infidelity.
Even adults are susceptible to negative peer pressure....the idea that anything goes... and heck...everyone's doing it...so why not me?
But, I remember reading (maybe in Shirley Glass's book?) about a situation where a doctor saw all of his mentors having affairs with their nurses and these were men he admired so... he fell into that lifestyle as well.
But, after d-day when he finally 'awoke' and saw things more clearly he realized that there were many men (and women) that were conducting their lives with honesty and integrity.
Its just that in the past he focused on the party crowd and didn't notice the others.
And now, he even notices how others frown upon the 'party' crowd....they were not as cool and popular as he had imagined them to be when he was in the thick of things......
[This message edited by njgal480 at 9:29 AM, December 27th (Monday)]
In my defense, I did actually host a party in this damn blizzard last night, so I was "social drinking".
It was kinda fun this am when I checked "my" facebook account and saw what I had posted last night while I was under the influence.
Anyway, I realize creating an addiction problem is probably not the way to go. Lol.
Thank you. I don't know what you meant about your "horrible posts". I understand your motivation.
As for MC, he came highly recommended and we will just have to see where this goes (this was only our 2nd joint session with this MC.)
As for Retro, I seriously think my H is so far off the mark that he would begrudingly do whatever they ask in a very superficial way, rolling his eyes the whole time and mocking it later.
As far as our relationship goes, yes, we greet each other with a kiss and the same when we part. He has been sending me a very loving like text in the am, almost every morning that he is working. We talk throughout the day. The problem seems to stem from extreme differences in the way we both grew up (he had basically no supervision or attention growing up, Dad died while my H was in his teens.) We have very different expectations for the way a household should operate and the way a family should spend time together and how that is to be balanced with our outside interests. This difference results in me feeling either uncomfortable/anxious (if I yield to his level of expectations) or stressed if I am trying to get things the way I think it should be without any help from him.
By the way, whichever emotion it is, it still comes out really, really bitchy.
Anyway, this is what is the source of most of our conflict, but there is basically no way to convince him that his "opinion" is just that, nor can I get him to respect my opinions.
As far as what he has seen at work, yes, he sees horrible things on a regular basis. He has been in incredibly scary and dangerous circumstances, but he has never had to shoot anyone. He usually doesn't tell me what happens at work other than his complaints about the bosses, coworkers, etc. which is really stressing him out more than the actual criminals.
I could go on and on, but there is a damn blizzard here that needs to be dealt with...
Stay safe all my Northern pals...
What do I like the best about you?
What I like the best about you is your kind and gentle nature. You are always the first to offer help where and when needed. I feel proud, happy, safe, levoed, cared for and grateful because of this quality in you.
You know how good all these letter made me feel? GOOD. My W may have said these things to me, but when I really needed them, I got them in writing... with discussion behind each one of them... This would have never happened without attending Retro. This helped me.
Today, I'm pretty happy. Nothing is ever perfect in life, but I'm doing well. It feels good to be out of depression... anger..
You can do it too with some sort of change. By you, by our spouse.
UK.. loved the poem....
[This message edited by trynhard at 9:08 AM, December 27th (Monday)]
Yes, my W grew up the youngest girl in home with 3 older brothers... she always was given everything.. told she was so grand.. Yep, spoiled. Not unlike someone with no supervision growing up...they do what they want and get what they want.... humm.. FOO of a cheater...
Ole well off to enjoy the day.. Have a good one all...
[This message edited by trynhard at 9:19 AM, December 27th (Monday)]
The big difference is what I call 'the epiphany'.
The moment when the WS has as 'AHA' moment. When he or she realizes that they did not make one little mistake.... instead they realize that they screwed up big time.
That they may lose their spouse, their children, their family, their way of life due to their very selfish ,narcissistic and often immature behavior.
Another part of the epiphany has to be the realization that their life has not been working. That their way of thinking as well as their behavior has to change.
Just stopping the cheating is NOT enough.
Instead, what needs to happen is a complete life altering change.
and... Allgood...I still have doubts about your MC- good recommendations or not.
Not every therapist is a good MC. And not every MC knows about the latest research on infidelity.
They are still working on the quickly forgive and forget and move forward model.
IMHO...that attitude reminds me of the medical doctors that treat a very obese , very out of shape patient for diabetes. And, because the doctor does not want to be insensitive he does not emphasize the need for the patient to have a complete change of diet, exercise, life etc. Instead, the doctor prescribes insulin, blood pressure meds, etc. etc.
And the patient has a very mediocre quality of life and may even have complications due to the meds.
Meanwhile, if the patient could have made a real life altering change psychologically and then in terms of behavior... think of the differenc in his quality of life!
Thats the difference.... going to a MC and just making small outward changes is not going to create a better quality of life.
Until your husband has a true epiphany he will continue to be the less than accomodating husband.
He still doesn't get it if he bristled at helping you with some Xmas related chores.
He should have been thrilled at the opportunity to spend a Xmas with his loving and faithful wife and wonderful children. He should have been grateful that he could spend time helping you with the kids as opposed to spending Xmas alone somewhere in a hole in the wall apartment.....
and Laura- something that jumped out at me was the comment that your husband will not paint the rooms and yet will not allow you to hire someone to do it!
again..it sounds to me like not too many internal changes have taken place.
he has not shifted his focus to be more selfless and compassionate,instead it appears to be all about him.
And... he's not even being very practical when he says this.
Does he realize how expensive divorce is? how rxpensive it is to maintain two separate households on the same amount of income?
the cost of painting a few rooms and making his betrayed wife happy should definitely be worth it!
My husband knows how expensive it was when we were separated for 6 months...money just flew out the window!
so..now.. I get no comments from my formerly penny pinching husband about anything that I spend money on!
He has a completely new perspective on everything post d-day!
I credit a lot of his changes to IC and AA.
In my opinion, MC is good as a referee.. to help mediate arguments, to help couples figure out how to communicate better and to interract.
We did go to MC for 6 months. One was awful. Theother MC was better but....
I do think that intensive IC was needed for my husband. He needed to figure out how he had become such a jaded, selfish, cynical,immoral person....
someone like your husband... ALlgood...that would have been snarky and superior acting about going to Retrouvaille....
stopping the cheating is not enough.
That's why the spouses are often still feeling very unsettled even years after d-day.
I think what they are feeling is an uneasiness due to the fact that there has not been substantial internal change in the WS.
In AA they call it a dry drunk. You can stop drinking but you are still exhibiting those very negative and very destructive personality traits that made you an alcoholic to begin with.
You may not be drinking but you are still selfish, still putting your own needs above others. You are still impatient and angry with the world. Still not humbled ,still arrogant.
Same with infidelity....
the actual act of infidelity is not the main problem... its the toxic thinking of the WS.
Its the way they view themselves, their spouses, their families etc.
If your husband had a true epiphany about the LTA he would have never considered going to the office party.
he would not have valued spending time with his drinking buddies over spending time with you. He would not have wanted to hurt you in any way.
he would not have put his needs above yours.
Thats the difference.
IMHO...until he 'gets' that... you will not be able to get to that next level in your marriage.
its like the obese diabetic... he has the meds and he's not dead...but is he really living?
Another thing that I think we as BS forget- we have the power now!
After d-day there is a power shift.
You should be able to demand that your WS goes to IC, AA, Retro. whatever it is that you need to reconcile.
You are giving your WS a second chance... a gift... of forgiveness.
You are giving them a chance to have a new and improved marriage.....
that means that a lot more has to change than just stopping the affair.
That's a given....
no reconciliation can happen without NC....
but, that's not the end of the story...
that's the beginning of a long road to rediscovery and change for both of you.
After a few moments of panic and guilt, I decided that if WH can't handle the difficult consequences of his really sh!tty actions, then he'll jump ship and that will be all on him. I can't pretend everything is okay when it's not. I mean, I CAN do that, but I won't. I mean, okay, many times I actually DO do that, but not right now. Feeling quite calm today, though the coffee hasn't kicked in to its fullest extent.
Honest, maybe you could send WH out for bread? I understand it's pretty dicey out there...
I'm on board with the stop the drinking resolution. I used to have one or two drinks on weekends and be perfectly happy with that. Now I find myself thinking with longing about the bottle of 12-year-old Glenlivit in my cupboard, but I am much happier when I leave it alone. I'm going back to the one-to-two drinks max on the weeknds again and I will feel much better about myself.
You seem to be spinning faster and faster lately. I hope you find your center now that the stress of the holidays are coming to an end.
You are a great mentor!
Those damn boundaries... I think Mr. Nell is starting to get the idea of what they are, but they look more like voting boundaries than state boundaries... all over the place and changing all the time to accommodate fluctuating political parties rather than hard, fixed and dependable.
I think I'm out of words. Can ya believe it?!
ETA: A couple additional words.
Fucking ducks and now itty-bitty baby ducks. Soon you'll be shoulder-deep in ducks!
[This message edited by ImNellNow at 10:32 AM, December 27th (Monday)]
he may not know how to go about being an honest human being period.....this is something that is usually there, instilled from childhood...did his parents teach him that lying is the "safe" way to be....
allgood: as for the mc...bare with me as i try to give my thoughts...
i watch dr phil everyday...he supposed to be the guy who gives it to you straight...the guy he calls you on everything....well there are times when i am watching him with a guy who is so clearly doing wrong, and he doesn't call them on it in the way you want to see...he doesnt put them down, call them names, does not "judge" them...what he does is he listens and tells them that they seem like an intelligent articulate human being, and he proceeds to go gently on telling them what they NEED to hear.....at first i would get angry with dr phil...he is supposed to "give" it to them, put them in their place....then after a few times of watching him do this, i realized what he was doing...the man is brilliant...because the person who was supposed to "get" it from him always ended up agreeing to get help, or do what he suggested...why, because they didn't feel attacked....they didn't feel judged and hung....the person didn't feel threatened....they felt like they were heard, and they were open to what he suggested....
now i hope this is what the mc is doing with mr allgood....especially if just meeting him, if he attacks him, he will end up with nothing accomplished...if me allgood feels judged i think he will shut down...
i think mr allgood is a breed of man that is defeatist, chauvinistic (slightly), he is a cop which makes him have his own set of life rules especially from the city....and i think because he was so young when he married he never really grew up.....he "wants" to be one of the "boys", he wants to let it go and just move on, and i think he really believes he is doing all he could and is currently shutting down from doing more because he feels like what is the point, she will end up leaving me or he feels like he is doing what he can, but why should he lose everything else in his life (the partying)....i still feel hope for this man, i think he does stupid well sometimes...and hopefully the mc will get through to him in a non judgemental way....
if though after a couple of months of sessions with this mc and there is no change, then the fit is not right....i do think you need to give it a bit of time, and i also think that retro too would be good, maybe in the spring...after a couple of months of mc....because then he might actually be "open" to it...i think he is so closed to so much...which leads me to the last trait i think he possesses....cynic....
of course i could be off base, wouldn't be the first time, and i am sure it won't be the last..
honest: i am with you...stuck with my wh in this blizzard.....would rather be stuck with just my kids...
laura: baby ducks...they must be so cute...but like the others....i guess they really did have fun fucking....the fucking ducks were fucking....
omg...my ws is so damned stupid....gotta go..
But the real reason I wanted to respond was to ask if I could use
omg...my ws is so damned stupid....gotta go..
ETA: Darn, we cross-posted and you explained your statement of fact!
[This message edited by ImNellNow at 11:10 AM, December 27th (Monday)]
you have every right to step in between PFM and your kids...especially if you think he is doing or saying something that can hurt them! You are a mama bear...like me..very protective of those kids.
Honest... you are an extremely kind, sensitive, and PATIENT person....
being stuck in a snowstorm with your WH and not resorting to violence is amazing....
Tryin gave you a lot of good advice. Take advantage of the financial help that your WH is giving you now and begin to act as if you are already divorced. Start looking for a job...any job for now...so that you can support yourself when the inevitable happens...
You could do well in any line of work. Especially if it is a people oriented job. Your kindness and caring shines through.
So, even if you start out in sales at a retail store I could see you very quickly moving up the ladder because your boss would see what a gem of an employee he has in you!
For your husband's information.... complete and total transparency is the MINIMUM requirement for reconciliation after a LTA.
That and NC are the first steps.
We as BS may trust but we need to verify. And that feeling persists for years afte d-day.
He better get used to it.
Like I always say.... after d-day...all bets are off!
all the rules change!
The cheater loses privacy, loses priviledges like chatting up old 'friends' Facebook, and maintaining friendships with co-workers that are toxic to their marriage.
and like Tryin points out.. many WS have left their jobs in order to reconcile, turned down promotions, sold their homes, moved hundreds of miles away from the affair partner, anything to prove their love and devotion to their spouse.
allowing access to their computer seems like a trivial thing to get aggravated about.......
As with everything having to do with WH, I am reserving judgement until everything shakes out. I'll react to his actions and words with as much grace and compassion as possible and add his actions/words to my info bank. Eventually when I have enough info, I'll cash out and make a decision to go all in or cut my losses. Right now I'm mostly in. He may have a come-to-Jesus moment one of these days. He may not. It may happen in time to save our relationship. It may not. I'm watching carefully and will act accordingly.
[edited because the phrase is "preaching to the choir," not "singing to the choir." wow... not enough coffee in the world, apparently.]
[This message edited by ImNellNow at 1:53 PM, December 27th (Monday)]
njgal: no, my kids were not in danger of being hurt physically or emotionally...it was heading towards a shouting match between pfm and manchild..mostly because pfm just does not know how to communicate....he is incapable of communicating in a productive way on pretty much most topics, from the mundane to the serious....oh well, that is the way that cookie crumbles, not much i can do about it cept sweep away the crumbs from time to time...
nell: when he went to whisk the computer away you should have stopped him....and asked right then and there as is your right to see them....if he refused then you would have more of a compass on his thinking.....
ok...i have a creepy sich with pfm that is beginning to get on my last nerve..i have been quite hesitant to post about it because he reads here and is a member....but my last nerve wants to strike....so here goes...
a while back i noticed that pfm started adopting some of my habits that he never had...such as weighing myself daily, eating super healthy (those are the easy ones) then i noticed that he started boppin to the music, whenever their was music playing i usually dance or bop to it...then in bed, when i finally lay down i always let out a huge sigh, a quiet sigh, but a sigh..now he does it...to the extreme....what i eat, he eats, phrases i use, he uses..its like little by little he is doing the things i do, eating the things i eat, speaking the things i say....its really creepy to me....its getting to the point that i can predict the next thing he will do that emulates me in some way shape or form....creepy creepy creepy....
i have for the most part kept my cool and not said much, here and there though i have opened my mouth only to hear him say "i have changed, why are you so against it. didn't you want me to change"...these were not the changes he needed to make....
i also joined a gym not to long ago...and i knew just knew i needed to nip that one too, so i told him that if he had any ideas about it, he better forget it, the gym thing is mine and i do not want him in the same place...that if he did i would join another gym to cost us double the money...his repsonse:
"i don't understand, if we were happily married wouldn't you want me to join the gym with you"
needless to say i screamed at him at that comment..."but we are not happily married, and apparantly we never were...stay away from the gym"....
well he is at it, little stupid things and i just want to scream....stop...i have tried to tell him to be his own person find his own things...but so far 'not'.....
any suggestions anybody....these are the little things that making living with him even harder...as stupid as they are, its creepy to me and i find all i want to do is shake it off me.....
Otherwise, my sense is that for whatever reason, after all this time, he still thinks that he's got a shot with you if he makes enough or the right changes. So, I guess you need to make it clear that is not the case. This may be an actions speak louder than words kind of a thing.
I guess it's just hard to do that AND keep up the appearance that you are a happily married couple for the kids' sake.
So, short of revisiting that decision, maybe you should keep your Ipod in at all times so as not to hear him. Or, try to find his decision to copy you amusing in some demented way.
Sorry, all I got.
(And - I do want to thank EVERYONE for their wise words as to my sitch. I've taken it all in, I just have nothing really to say about it. At the moment, I'm not making my marriage my #1 priority. I'm making me my #1 priority.)
I'm making me my #1 priority.
Good for you. You, your kids, and ultimately you rerlationship with Mr. Allgood (D or R) will be the better for this.
As for Mr. Allgood growing up without a father, so did my Dad. His father died before he was in his teens and he had to be the "man of the family". My grandmother never remarried. My father is both as responsible and fun-loving as you could want in a man. A good balance. Growing up without a father figure may have taken a role-model from Mr. Allgood, but it did not take away his ability to do what is right and fullfill his responsibilities.
To me it sounds like pfm does not know what to do to be good in your eyes, so he is doing what he can to be like you, the one he sees as good. Now I know this should be silly, because you, SI'ers,, and IC/MC types have told him what he needs to do, but I think it just does not register for him. This is the first thought that I had as I read your post. My second, more cynical thought, was that he wants you to pull the trigger on a D, so that he does not have to be the bad guy. Mocking you is just a calculated way to drive you up the fricken wall (which it is) without overtly negative or "bad" behavior. If you have been successfull lately at employing the 180 on pfm (?), his actions seem to have gotten him your attention again.
Hi honest, I have been thinking a lot about you stuck with Mr. D-honest in the snow. You are really showing progress in your posts. It occurred to me that you may need a car or walk shoveled out of the snow. Can you get Mr. D-honest to do this for you? I am sure with all his stints he will know to be careful and not over-exert himself to a heart attack or anything.
Will whoever up north has left the door open close it? All this cold weather is ruining our sunny paradise down here.
Trust me... eventhough I sound so positive etc. I still have my moments.
Some of the stunts that my husband pulled during the LTA..the level of disrespect etc. can still, at times , makes me shiver ...and I question my decision... but,
apparently my husband is now madly in love with me.
Almost losing me made him realize how much I meant to him and he has been working his tail off since d-day to make it up to me.
He's a guy that used to like to go out with his drinking buddies etc. and now... he is my shadow.
He only wants to be with me...all day, every day....
Things he never wanted to do with me before are at the top of his list now- going to plays, movies, concerts, etc.
Could that be what's going on with PFM? or do you think there is something else?
being completely honest and transparent was a dealbreaker for me...he broke it many times over...
as far as telling him, i do, over and over and over...as well as he reads it here, over and over and over...
as for being like me to be good...who knows..maybe...i do not think he is doing it to make me crazy....but crazy it does make me....its one thing when your little ones do it, quite another when its a grown man....
and no he did not join the gym!!!
allgood: making yourself your #1 priority is great thing to do, so often when we marry and then become mothers we come in on the totem pole way down....the bestest thing you could do for you and your kids though is make yourself the priority as long as its not the kids expense....your husband...well he needs to earn his spot now....and even then, you need to be #1...!!!
njgal: it sounds like your husband just took his head out of his ass and is breathing in the fresh air and being who he was supposed to be all along....breathing up an ass can be toxic you know...