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User Topic: Long Term Affair Part 21
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 11:26 AM, December 2nd (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

you busy bunch!

I guess I'll start with what dip just said and then go back to my notes.

ATS/Tryn/Dip about sex, frequency, initiating, etc.

Here's the thing. We're all different. Some of it is biology. Some of it is mental. So, yeah, there are women who want sex more often, who initiate more often, etc. But, it's not always fair to compare. For example, I know I mentioned sex drive, initiating more, etc. BUT your wives are all late 50's/60, two of them are depressed (I firmly believe that all BPD's are depressed) and then there's menopause ... I'm 35 and apparently extremely fertile (LOL) and I have hypersexuality from being bipolar. So, I'm on the extreme end of the bell curve.

Anyway, ATS -- I think your WW's shutdown is completely due to dealing with the CSab. There is no way to talk about that/deal with it and then feel sexual. It's like she's got to re-program her whole sexuality in order for it to be healthy. So, first she's stuck in neutral, which is actually an improvement.

And as for O's from penetration. They exist. I suspect UKG is right in that probably much more likely with men who are on the extreme upper end of the size spectrum. I can't compare to smaller size because both of my H's were/are large. So, there is that physiologically, but the screaming O is also psychological and is probably from feeling used/humiliated/and also overpowered and somewhat helpless. See, a CSab will often only engage in sex that feels like a re-vicitmization. Especially if the abuse culminated in O's (which it can and often does)

OK -- to what Miracle said:

LIMBO sucks. But you can't be out of it until you're out of it.

As for UKG saying why do they expect you to "get over it" -- totally true. You learn to live with it, because that's the only choice. Whether you R or D you learn to live with it.

What *I* can't figure out is this insistence on learning to trust the WS again. That is just INSANE! I think I would have made progress so much faster if that stupid idea wasn't out there. You cannot ever trust your WS again -- because your WS is not trustworthy. Your WS has proven this in the most brutal and thoughtless way. So, believe them.
But, there will still be people in your life you can trust. Just trust the right people and set things up with your WS so that they can't really screw you over too much if they "fall off the wagon" so to speak.

About not knowing.
There are a lot of schools of thought on this. Here's mine. Assume the worst, and then assume it's worse than that. Ta da! Now you know. I came up with that idea based on this simple calculus: Naked picture of OW + sexy text to OW + OW ratting him out once + denials of everything plus lame excuses == 20 year LTA. I mean, jeesh. So, I assume, based on the snooping I did, that WH also had sex with at least 7 other specific women I found red flags for plus probably some random strangers since he had profiles on AFF, bangmatch, etc. Basically, I am reasonably sure he hasn't been with kids or men, but who knows.

So, ATS, to end my ramble -- there's sort of a point. If the thing with BIL being a PA is a dealbreaker for you, then the deal should be off. I'd probably just say "look -- it's farfetched to believe you didn't have a PA with BIL and that's just more than I can take buh-bye" Because she did, I'm sure.

Finally -- HONEST

Do not let this man have any idea of any of your plans. He will use this against you. It is counterproductive and self-destructive to be fair with a person like him. Don't make that mistake.

Oh, and tryn said:

I confirm that time does make things easier.

I just want to say I concur.


Love ya'll!


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 11:34 AM, December 2nd (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Allgood - do you think part of the reason you're having a tough time is a result of your last IC'ing session? There would be times when I would think, "Hey, I'm doing pretty good, maybe I should cancel my session." I would go anyway and then I'd come home feeling worse after talking things out. I would want to start yelling and crying and screaming at my H all over again. As crazy as it may seem, I now believe that was the best thing because it forced me to excise all of the negative emotions, hurt and pain and eventually I did come to some relative acceptance that my H's LTA will forever be a part of our marital history.
I have to say that I agree with your H that maybe just going out to dinner, seeing a movie or whatever activity you would most enjoy, might be a good thing tonight. Make a promise to yourself not to go down the "A path" and make this a night of relaxation to the best of your ability. Oh, and no wine . Sorry, just felt I should add that too.

Now, about wanting to know everything. I have frequently posted that once I knew a fair amount of the details of my H's 8 year A, I just didn't want to hear anything more. I was wondering though if part of the reason was because I knew this person for over 20 years. There was no mystery for me in terms of what was she like, what she looked like, how she and my H related? I saw firsthand that she was an ugly, fat, and classless woman who was very much in love with my H. What I didn't know and will never understand, was why my H would ever be susceptible to having an A with her. Other than the fact that she worshipped him, what could have been the appeal for him?
So I guess my question for those of you struggling with needing more information is this, Do you think you would have less questions if you knew the AP personally??? Is it the not knowing but imagining and probably exaggerating the qualities you feel the AP possessed?
When our S's are in the throes of their A's, their heads were up their asses, this much I know to be true. Every quality they saw in their AP's was blown out of proportion just as every flaw they saw in us had to be in order for them to continue in the A.
ATS, I remember you talking about having to work with one of your W's AP's. What is your perception of him (other than the fact that he is a no-good bastard) and how does that differ from what your W said about him in her "fact" pages?
I am convinced none of us will ever fully know the details of those years. Some may have a more complete idea but to me the very most important thing to know is that the A is over, there is no contact whatsoever, and your S has changed dramatically in his/her commitment to the M and to you.
Hugs to the tribe.

[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 11:45 AM, December 2nd (Thursday)]


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 12:01 PM, December 2nd (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Do you think you would have less questions if you knew the AP personally??? Is it the not knowing but imagining and probably exaggerating the qualities you feel the AP possessed?

This is a really good question. I knew the AP, so that might make a difference.


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 12:42 PM, December 2nd (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jeez with the sex talk, you people. I will say that the one thing WH has going for him is that now that he's no longer getting some on the side, he doesn't turn me down. So when I feel like it, we do it. I do enjoy what I call porn-star sex (no feelings, lots of urm... lets call it poses) and when he tries to make it all emotional-connectedy I am able to retreat to my inner porno set.

As for the AP, I know enough about her. Probably more than WH knows, frankly, because he is blind to the ways that her behavior mimics his twin brother's behavior (they are both clinically depressed, entitled and emotional manipulators, and both use self-victimization). WH's blindness extends to his own co-dependent, unhealthy and inappropriate reaction to these two people. She's a needy, empty, lifeless user.
*Nell brushes her hands.*
Not to say I wouldn't like to step over her as she lay broken and weeping in the gutter, and maybe spit on her a little. But still. Meh to her. She's got nothing on me. (Not what WH used to say, but he's excessively wrong a lot.)

Now. As for me and my house...

I've got two days before my MC-imposed soft 180 ends. We have an MC appointment on that day. I'm going to hand over my loooooooooong list of needs (three pages, single-spaced, which don't talk about shared views on philanthropy or spirituality, which I am leaving for later).

I have been having trouble this week with anger (covering up other emotions... I can check off all the negative emotion boxes so I won't list them). A bunch of random stuff has been bothering me, brought on I'm sure by the stress of this season and the knowledge of what stupid stupid WH was doing this time last year. He's been asking what's wrong; I've been avoiding talking about it because I didn't have a handle on the anger. This morning, I simply sent him the database of all the texts and phone calls he made to OW in December 2009 and said, here's what I've been trying to deal with alone. Tip of the iceburg, of course... doesn't include the secret cell phone she gave him, the time they spent in person, the e-mails and instant messages, etc. But it's bad enough. So he sends me a brief "I'm sorry" message, then follows it up a few hours later with a longer "you must be so hurt by these texts and phone calls" message with a recommitment to our marriage. I agreed with everything he said, added the bit about the texts and phone calls being only the tip of the iceburg, thanked him for his restatement of love and commitment, and threw in a little nudge about "making this Christmas a good one for me."

We'll see what comes of all of this. Should be interesting.

[This message edited by ImNellNow at 12:43 PM, December 2nd (Thursday)]


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 12:55 PM, December 2nd (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What *I* can't figure out is this insistence on learning to trust the WS again. That is just INSANE

Count me in that camp too. The way I feel about it is this, S's who engage in LTA's didn't just have a lapse in judgment, such as a one-night stand or STA. IMHO, it reveals a true character flaw and some very deep-seated FOO issues that developed over their lifetimes.
Trusting our S's with their history doesn't make sense to me. It's not that I believe that he definitely will cheat on me again but I also don't believe there's an absolute guarantee that he won't, if you KWIM.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
ImNellNow
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Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 1:01 PM, December 2nd (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

fnf:
It's not that I believe that he definitely will cheat on me again but I also don't believe there's an absolute guarantee that he won't, if you KWIM.

Agree wholeheartedly. And going one step further. Take out "cheat on me again" and insert any noun in the English language and I continue to agree. I don't believe anything about WH, but I don't believe the opposite, either. I just realize there's a 50/50 chance that WH is doing or not doing... anything, really.


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 1:38 PM, December 2nd (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WH's list is mostly "I need to be forgiven. I need to do whatever I want without any input from you. I need unconditional love. I need you to be happy with whatever I'm willing to give you."

Nell - I read this the other day and quite frankly I was furious for you. I hope it's ok to ask but "is your H's head still up his ass???"
Seriously, he wants to do what he wants with no input from you. Isn't that what got him into trouble in the first place. Be happy with whatever I'm willing to give you??? Please tell me he has since taken all of these statements back. I would love to hear what your MC has to say about his list of needs. No wonder you're having trouble with anger this week.
Having said this, he does seem to have given you the appropriate response today though.
What our FWS's don't seem to understand is that they must work very, very hard to win back "unconditional love" and they may never again win back our total and complete trust. This is true in my case anyway.
It's still early in the R process for both of you and hopefully you have a good MC who will help your H see the error of his recent expectations.
I'll be very anxious to hear what your MC has to say. Good luck and please keep us posted.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
Laura28
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Member # 28997
Default  Posted: 2:08 PM, December 2nd (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi all

Just peeking in before I go to work

Dip


My W will initate. In fact she did last Saturday, Sun, Tues and Wed.

Happy for you

I think she may be trying to kill me. It would be a perfect crime. "Well officer, the old fart kept after me for sex, I gave it to him and his heart could not take it. Now he is dead." Boo-Hoo.

Some really interesting discussion about trust and needing to know the facts. Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

Me, I'll never trust again. "Trust but verify" will always be my motto.

Unfortunately if we D and I found another this would always be the case. I've lost my innocence. I also find myself having very negative feelings about people in general. Silly I know, but I now often look at both men and women my age and watch their body language with me and others and try to decide if they are cheaters. I even sometimes fantasise about flirting with men. In the back of my mind I think I'm hoping they will come onto me just so I can (a) get a buzz from it (cause my self esteem is injured and I want then to find me attractive) and (b) slap them down and tell them what a POS they are for coming onto a married woman and/or cheating on their Ws. That's a little screwed up isn't it?

Have a nice day/evening/night all

Laura

[This message edited by Laura28 at 2:11 PM, December 2nd (Thursday)]


Married 30yrs Me BW 57Yrs Him FWH 59yrs
OWzero 1988 EA?/PA? Gaslighted.
Dday May 28 2010.
OW1 1994(6mths PA, EA til dday).
OW2 2002(8yrs PA).
OW3 2009(1Yr PA).
Others???? Status: Not Divorcing..but.."You can't unfuck the goat"

Posts: 2726 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Australia
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 2:13 PM, December 2nd (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm hoping they will come onto me just so I can (a) get a buzz from it (cause my self esteem is injured and I want then to find me attractive) and (b) slap them down and tell them what a POS they are for coming onto a married woman and/or cheating on their Ws. That's a little screwed up isn't it?

Not to me. Honestly, I thought this was hysterical.
I'll be chuckling for the rest of the day over this.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 2:20 PM, December 2nd (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

fnf,
Well, that's not exactly how he put those things. And we haven't talked our needs through the MC yet. We've just talked to each other, and I let him just talk. (Then I restated his thoughts here in their most basic forms.)

WH's position is that he needs
1. unconditional love. (He had my unconditional love, he threw it away for manipulative limerance, he has not earned any kind of love back, but okay... people need unconditional love. That's a valid need. Just not possible right now.)
2. he needs to be allowed to do things the way he wants. He makes big noise about being "self-directed." He has FOO issues of being told that if he didn't agree with his parents (father) then he was flat-out wrong. He doesn't see that he is in fact the very personification of reactive (especially to emotional manipulation and self-victimization). And so he does nothing if no one forces his hand. And he does not do what is calmly requested of him. He does do what is screamed at him in a fit of temper/anxiety/Big Drama. He's stuck in a very unhealthy cycle. And I am watching from the outside, and occasionally falling into using this unhealthy coping mechanism of his to get what I need from him by resorting to Big Drama when I have calmly asked for and not gotten it. The "be happy with whatever I give you" is just... he has expectations and I rarely meet them, because I am not using my emotions to manipulate him; they are actual emotions and cannot be turned off if WH says pretty words or shows me a bit of attention.
3. he needs to be forgiven... first of all, we all know that's a fallacy. It doesn't matter if someone else says "I forgive you" if you have not forgiven yourself AND not made the changes necessary to avoid doing in the future exactly what you are asking to be forgiven for right now. Second, I am nowhere near forgiveness. I am giving him a chance to show me I SHOULD forgive him. And that's a huge gift, isn't it.

His head is so far up his ass that the hole is all you can see. (Hence the name a$$hole.) I'm hoping that in time, he'll only be an a$$face, where his entire head is lodged in there but the body is not, and the head can with a great deal of pain be extracted. And then maybe, someday, he'll just wear his a$$ for a hat from time to time.

I have this twisted, detatched interest in what WH is going to do next.

I had a good cry at my desk and am feeling better (except for the humiliation of someone walking in on me while I was crying at my desk).

Edited because "either" does not go with "and." How embarrassing.

[This message edited by ImNellNow at 2:46 PM, December 2nd (Thursday)]


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 2:34 PM, December 2nd (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nell - I'm glad you explained that a little because in its most "basic form" his words sounded awful. I do hope I didn't offend you but I really wanted to question this.
Hopefully your MC can get your H to explain more clearly what it is he needs but, more importantly, help your H understand what it is you need and why your needs must take priority during this stage of R.
I hope your cry did help you to feel better. Actually I think it must have because your paragraph about your H's head up his A$$ was too funny.
Again, good luck and let us know how the MC'ing goes.

[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 2:38 PM, December 2nd (Thursday)]


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 3:37 PM, December 2nd (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

if we D and I found another this would always be the case.

I used to feel like this, but now I totally disagree. What I've learned, both IRL and on SI in this past year is that there really, truly are trustworthy people. My WH just isn't one of them.

Yesterday was my anti-versary of when i confronted WH/OW and I can say with great confidence that, yes, I could still trust another spouse. Because I trust myself. I'm smarter now. I would pick a different kind of partner, have a more intimate relationship, I have "radar" now... and I know that I could get burned if I trust again, but it would be like getting burned on a scar. Damaging, but most of the pain nerves are dead there...


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 4:31 PM, December 2nd (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So, I assume, based on the snooping I did, that WH also had sex with at least 7 other specific women I found red flags for plus probably some random strangers since he had profiles on AFF, bangmatch, etc.
I have to agree with this. I know about MOW. I have very strong suspicions about another ex-gf and a fling with a colleague (herpes). So, I conclude he has had at least two other indiscretions. Why Two? I dunno. It seems a reasonable assumption. I have rewritten our marriage and come up with about 6yrs when I reckon he was faithful. When he was in the marriage. But, heck. Who knows other than him? But this goes with a WS who TTíd for two years and has remained a half open book. Heís drawn a line under the affair and moved on to the next chapter in his life. He doesnít seem to fully understand that we are the sum of our past. Yes, the past is done and dusted, but it is part of who we are. It has made us who we are today. You can never get away from who you have been. Not really.

When our S's are in the throes of their A's, their heads were up their asses, this much I know to be true. Every quality they saw in their AP's was blown out of proportion just as every flaw they saw in us had to be in order for them to continue in the A.
And the AP reflected back that image they wanted to see of themselves. They could be that person Ė for a while. Someone said it was chasing the chimera. This confirmation of this person as this identity they wanted to have instead of the person they really were Ė that person with responsibility, children, bills, the mundane that make up life and they could be this other person for a while. If only for the moment of a sordid tryst in a hotel room. But it was shallow. Fiction. They can only maintain this persona for awhile and therefore it cannot be deeply satisfying. Real life is waiting around the corner, comforting and warm. And yet they were risking all on a cheap thrill and temporary adulation/escape.

Do you think you would have less questions if you knew the AP personally???
I think it makes for more of an insult.

I asked H if he felt we didnít have enough sex. Of course, he avoided the question and then made a joke of it. He said he hoped I wasnít asking about the last 10yrs, cos he couldnít remember (yeh, right) but he never felt sexually frustrated by not having enough with me. (not sure what that means about MOW, but never mind). And then he went on about how I hadnít let myself go, about how great I was and always had been, that I had always been desirable in his eyes, blah-di-blah crap. I came away from the attempt at finding out whatever it was she had or that was missing in me or him with a feeling of WTF. I guess MOW just offered the illicit thrill, the reignited lust and the thrall of an affair.

It's not that I believe that he definitely will cheat on me again but I also don't believe there's an absolute guarantee that he won't, if you KWIM.
Or that he hasnít all through our marriage. The belief in our whole marriage has gone. We started at ground level,I dunno, sometime after meeting BH and about 6mths ago.

That's a little screwed up isn't it?
Nope. I get a thrill from it too! I never saw it before.

Nell Ė unconditional love is gone. Thatís it really. Unconditional means he can go and fuck whoever he wants and you will still love him. Uh, no. Not gonna happen. He stepped over the line Ė waaay over the line, beyond the pale and out of sight. From now on, you will love him as long as he doesnít do x-y-z. I loved my children unconditionally. I still do. Him, I did. Now I donít. It was a foolish notion. The same with trust. There are those I would trust with my life Ė literally. But I would trust them only when I have given up being able to deal with [whatever] myself. I take control now. Period. Me first. Then, having beaten myself up so many times over the LTA, I know that if I have failed, it was because of something I did or didnít do. I have turned into a complete control freak. Once bitten and all that.

Okay. Snowed in again. H made it home. Have two extra bodies bedding down for the night so Iím off for a glass of Merlot (or whatever). Love Ďní hugs to everyone. LTA forum Ė sanity in a box! (((((tribe)))))


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3327 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
lostsuol
♀ Member
Member # 13706
Default  Posted: 4:35 PM, December 2nd (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow! so much happening here that I can't keep up with all the info much less post on the subject.

Since being home I've been so tired and I have so many things to do I don't know where to start... so I either start one thing and get distracted by another task (ADD tendencies) or I do nothing but procrastinate until it's too late to accomplish much! I didn't even get dressed today (it's 4p) and I planned to get some shopping done while FWH is out of town. I'm kind of wandering around the house aimlessly doing a lot about nothing. I did talk to my sister for an hour (she's feeling a bit better) so this is good news but I can't seem to get myself in gear. Depressed? Fibro fog? Great candidate for Cymbalta commercial? Whining... needing a kick in the butt... feeling overwhelmed & sorry for myself. Tired of being the BW who still wants answers... Triggering with more seasonal memories... All of the above and then some.

OK, another half hour has passed and I'm angry at myself for wasting my day and your precious time if you've read this far. Need to eat something so better end this.

I know - 1st rule: Take care of yourself! I don't seem able to do a thing... Sorry tribe. {{{LTA}}}


Posts: 808 | Registered: Feb 2007 | From: Canada
want-it-2-b-ok
♀ Member
Member # 23323
Default  Posted: 5:07 PM, December 2nd (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I tried before to post on here but got lost...
but I need help as I am struggling with R....
WS's... WHY did FWH wantOW after DDAy and sent her poems etc ... then after I initiated Divorce and he got the reasons (OW dumped him when she found out SHE wasn't his one and only!!)did he then dedcide I am his one and only??
Why after getting out of his fog has he written a timeline that is full of his distain at OW and how she repulsed him??
Is this true??


"I'm darned if FWH messed up that bad- worked so hard to fix himself-becomes such a good person and I then cut him loose so the next woman enjoys what my heartbreak created out of him" NewAttitude. BS: me FWH: him.Dday 02/10.In R

Posts: 676 | Registered: Mar 2009 | From: Cloud cuckoo land???
strongish
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Member # 29259
Default  Posted: 5:59 PM, December 2nd (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Phew...just caught up with the postings from today. I feel like I just had a conversation with some old friends. You all make me feel so much better, if only because you completely understand and validate what I'm feeling. Thank God for the Tribe.

Want-it....welcome to our little corner of SI. This is truly a place of comfort and understanding. The people here have become a part of my life now and I frankly don't know what I'd do if I didn't have them in my corner. I get strength from the stories and postings of the others and often get a good laugh as well! Considering how pitiful I feel most of the time, that is HUGE!!

1. Unconditional love...some can give it no matter what (Mother Theresa) but most of us are human and while not necessarily is our love "conditional" we do respond when our love is shoved back in our face! That's not to say that we don't love our S, just that we now love them differently. Kind of like sleeping with one eye open. I still love my FWH but I don't have the blind trust that I had in him 6 months ago. That is gone and will never return.

2. Details of the A....I go back and forth with this one. Some days I want details and some days I'm too exhausted to care. I've given up trying to check up on FWH...again, too exhausting and really it would be soooo easy for him to get around any checking up that I could do. Maybe that is holding back our R as I can't/don't verify his movements and communicattions but it truly would be impossible to be completely sure of what he's doing or who he's talking to all the time. And I do not want to be in a relationship, let alone M, where I have to keep checking up on the other person! That's a craziness I won't live with.

S's who engage in LTA's didn't just have a lapse in judgment, such as a one-night stand or STA.
I saw a new IC today and this is exactly what she told me. I feel so relieved!! FWH, and to some degree the previous IC, kept minimizing the A and so I've been doubting whether I'm just the unforgiving type? Do I not have any empathy? What about for better or worse?? So, today she says that a LTA is a different kind of infidelity that is much harder to overcome. In some ways this is depressing but in other ways it validates why I still feel like crap! I am allowed to feel like crap because a crappy thing happened to me!

So, FWH had an IC appt. this morning with the C that we had both been seeing (the one that I'm now not seeing). He calls me as I'm getting ready to go into the building for my appt. He said that he asked the "old" IC what he could do to make me feel better...she said that she just didn't know (part of why I needed to find someone new). So FWH tells me that he doesn't know either and asks me again...what does he need to do to make me feel less broken. This is a HUGE issue for me! I hate the FWH wants me to come up with the answers to how to manage this mess! I made the calls to a MC, I bought books on how to heal from infidelity, I'm on SI reading post after post after post....and when I thought we weren't making any progress I made the call to find another C! He does what I ask/browbeat him into doing, but nothing without my coming up with the idea. The new IC helped me see that FWH is reacting to the situation but is not taking action on his own to clean up the mess that he caused. I resent this...just in case you couldn't figure that out! She gave me the words to say to FWH next time he asks what he can do to help me get over this. He can let me be in the "I don't know place." I don't know how to fix this...I don't know if I'll ever be able to trust him again...I don't know when I will know.... I told her that I think FWH wants me to make the decisions so that if he does what I "tell" him to do and I still want to S or D, he can say that it wasn't his fault. Sadly, she looked at me and just nodded her head. At least I don't feel like I'm going crazy. It sounded like that to her too, so I must be on the right track.

Needless to say there was another mountain of tears and I have a killer headache tonight. DS17 and I are having leftovers for dinner and an early bedtime for me. As always, thanks for listening Tribe.


Posts: 490 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Texas
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 6:09 PM, December 2nd (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

want-it-2-b-ok...WS's...
WHY did FWH wantOW after DDAy and sent her poems etc ... then after I initiated Divorce and he got the reasons (OW dumped him when she found out SHE wasn't his one and only!!)did he then dedcide I am his one and only??
Why after getting out of his fog has he written a timeline that is full of his distain at OW and how she repulsed him??
Is this true??
Yes, I think it it true... WHY??? because dday cause the beginning of grief and the loss of you! See.. the secret is a way of keeping it all... Affairs are greed and selfishness..

Dip.. You crack me up..

[This message edited by trynhard at 6:10 PM, December 2nd (Thursday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
deeppurple
♂ Member
Member # 28757
Default  Posted: 6:38 PM, December 2nd (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


today she says that a LTA is a different kind of infidelity that is much harder to overcome.

Strong - why the distinction?

Dip - dont change your will just yet.


Me - BS 49
Her - WS 43
Married 16 yrs (together 17 yrs)
DD13 DS10 DS8 DS6
DDay 1 6.4.2010 dday 2 7.25.2010
Heading for divorce.
"Never look down on someone unless you are helping them up"

Posts: 522 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Where the sun is shining & the surf is pumping
strongish
♀ Member
Member # 29259
Default  Posted: 7:13 PM, December 2nd (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The distinction is that in a LTA there WS actually lives a duplicitous life for an extended period of time. It's not the "I got drunk, blah, blah, blah...." Her point is just that when someone lies to you, or lives a dual life for YEARS it can't be denied or pawned off as a "phase" or mistake. It's a day-in/day-out conscious effort to deceive. That's a really L-O-N-G fog to be in and at some point you just have to accept that this is part of the WS's personality.

Posts: 490 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Texas
ShockedandNumb
♀ Member
Member # 30151
Default  Posted: 7:26 PM, December 2nd (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Basically, I am reasonably sure he hasn't been with kids or men, but who knows.

Can we eliminate Goats, Ducks and horses also?

M3-

I could still trust another spouse. Because I trust myself. I'm smarter now. I would pick a different kind of partner, have a more intimate relationship, I have "radar" now


What I've learned, both IRL and on SI in this past year is that there really, truly are trustworthy people. My WH just isn't one of them.

Hadn't thought of it this way. I guess I have to beware of getting bitter and thinking all men cannot be trusted because I cannot possibly know that. Thanks for the reminder.

Forgive

Other than the fact that she worshipped him, what could have been the appeal for him?

A man friend of mine once told me this:

If we (men) knew that No one would ever know what we were doing, we would screw all kinds of woman.. Fat, ugly, old, doesn't matter. It can be just because we are curious, wondering what it would be like,no pressure because we don't care if we please them, or all about a sick fantasy, etc.. Something disgusting and dirty can be made into something erotic too. I mean, I can look at a hole in a tree and get my mind rolling if I am in a certain mood.

I know he can't possibly speak for all men, but....he actually said it.

I agreed with everything he said, added the bit about the texts and phone calls being only the tip of the iceburg, thanked him for his restatement of love and commitment, and threw in a little nudge about "making this Christmas a good one for me."

ImNell--hehehe-Go for the Big stuff!!


I've lost my innocence. I also find myself having very negative feelings about people in general. Silly I know,

Sigh Laura--singing my song here.. Not silly at all. Just a war wound.


And then he went on about how I hadnít let myself go, about how great I was and always had been, that I had always been desirable in his eyes, blah-di-blah crap. I came away from the attempt at finding out whatever it was she had or that was missing in me or him with a feeling of WTF. I guess MOW just offered the illicit thrill, the reignited lust and the thrall of an affair.

Uk? Did you want something to be wrong with you to be the reason? Or were you looking to fix whatever it was? I do the same thing, but I don't really want to hear that I was less attractive or not as good in any other way.


D-Day#1-11/2005--me-8 weeks pregnant
D-Day#2 11/17/2010 same OW-LTA
BS(me)44
WS(him)42 yrs old.
4 daughters/19+ yr marriage
Nothing hurts more than realizing he meant everything to you, but you meant nothing to him....

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