In some of your posts, you indicate that he is doing everything in his power to show that he is a remorseful WS, someone who regrets his affair and who is committed to his marriage. What changed to make you worry again that your second best?
I'm sure the affair made her feel that way. With all due respect, he's not doing everything he can.
That's why I suggested he needed to take the lead in finding a new job and getting the OW out of their lives. By doing that he's putting her first and clearly showing that.
'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth
If your husband has actually shown deep regret and remorse before hand and you suspect it could be a matter of being shame bound, it could be worthwhile to get the book Healing the shame that bind you by John Bradshaw for your H.
I believe it is this one as opposed to him denying or hiding anymore. I have never seen him take the steps he is taking, so that is positive. I just see that he fights facing it and really feeling it all. He does get defensive(not angry defensive,but hurt in his voice defensive) when we talk about some of the really hurtful things he has done that affected me or the children and I think it is because it hurts so much to think that he did that, that he would rather erase it from his mind as his built in defense mechanism. But I need him to feel it.. Will it ever happen, who knows.. Yet to be determined but I am not willing to take a chance on a man that won't step up and be a man. Make sense?
He is doing everything- He needs to leave his job, but do I want to be with someone who had to work so hard to be with me?
That's a very valid question. Yes, he's forwarding the e-mails to you, but the fact the OW told your friend and you what was said would be very tough to get over. That, coupled with the fact he's still working with her and she's still actively contacting him, to me would be very very difficult.
That's why I strongly feel that at the very least he needs to be moving heaven and earth to find a new job and over time and consistant actions possibly you can re-build.
(((imagrownup))). I'm so sorry you're hurting and he isn't doing what he should be.
When a WS lies not only in words but actions (to cover up the lies) what path is there left to them to ever earn the trust of the BS back?
AS, I think there is another path. The one where the WS asks for help and does the work.
I've seen your posts regarding ID needing the in your face responses, not the nicer, kinder worded ones. Well, without being too flippant, How's that workin' for ya? If that is what he truly needs, and you would know better than any of us here, then great. We can keep that in mind when responding to ID. However, if he comes here and myself or other WS pick up on some earnest, honest introspection, maybe that is what is going on. You have been dealing with his shit for so long. We are seeing it with a fresh set of eyes. I feel like I am rambling.
If he is still lying in his words and in his actions, it will be revealed here eventually. Until then, and hopefully it never happens, keep on him, call him on his shit (the stuff we don't know), but also try to look at his efforts as being a new ID. This is new territory for him too. Maybe he is still unsure how to go forward. I know, I know, the answers are all over this forum, but look at the continued challenges so many new WS go through.
I feel like I just went in a huge circle without saying anything relevant...
In no order: The in your face has always worked. The asking, telling, even begging in sobbing tears has never worked. Get the truth from him by telling him I know he's hiding more then he's saying and he'd damn well better say it himself or I'm leaving then and there, make him read the WS Handbook thread out loud to me and ask him "So how many of these have you said and or thought? and how do they sound to you now?", walk out with son and suit case and say I'm leaving for a week.
I always follow through.
I gave him three years to own up. Three years of not getting in his face and trying to let him come to.
A sound logical debate/argument? He plays devils advocate.
I do reward him for good behavior. Like two days spent with midget and being honest about who he is/what he's done with his friend so the friend can choose if he is the kind of person he want's to associate with? He got a kiss. I'm used to the positive rewards system from having an autistic son.
Just so very tired of raising a special needs son solo, fighting off a stalker who's bent on breaking us up for three years (who should hopefully be gone now), and waiting for him to man the F up cuz I'm sick of raising him too. To add on being stuck in confused on how on this earth he's sposta prove himself when he's used his actions to lie, more then once, and that's the way to tell if they are really changing or not... I just don't know what to do and I'm tired.
ETA: As you've seen I posted in his WW post. I do read the Waywards section. I have since my lurking days to try to better understand. I'm one of those logical people that needs to have all the parts of the puzzle so it makes sense in my head. If parts are missing I WILL notice. Which is why I caught him in so many lies that ended in "I thought I'd told you that." -_-
[This message edited by AttemptStrength at 11:46 AM, December 4th (Saturday)]
I'd never have spent the money on a wedding dress if I knew I was just going to a costume party.
Imagrownup - Oh I wasn't asking once a cheater always a cheater ... I really do believe that people can change. My WH says he didn't love her never did. However as you can see below he kept on with everything no matter what the risks. So who does he really love? ME? Her?
I know this isnít the answer that you may have come here to read but there is a possibility that he actually felt that he loved both of you at the time he was in the affair. The 70ís song ďTorn between Two Lovers" by Mary MacGregor describes this situation quite succinctly.
The question remains that what we mean and how we define "love" can vary greatly at various times in our lives. I know that I used the word love in my affair but I have come to understand that it wasnít the same ďloveĒ that I felt for my wife and the love I have for my wife is not the same as what I felt or thought I felt for the OW.
There is a lot of discussion on limerence and lust and chemically fueled emotions running rampart during an affair. What makes it love and what makes it real love and what makes it false love is a very difficult thing to explain.
Since you stated that this was not an issue of ďonce a cheater, always a cheaterĒ, I wonder if you are captured in the same moment that my wife is? I think of it as a variation of the once a cheater idea. LF also thinks that since I was in love with her for all this time, that itís a certainty that I will always love the OW to a certain degree. That the feelings will never go away. LF thinks at a certain level that I am here only because 1) I was too chicken to chase the OW and 2) that LF was the safe bet.
Not unlike how you wonder if your H is only there for the kids etc, LF also feels that I am here because of the practical side of life and worse yet, that my sense of duty simply over ruled my heart. A polygraph in my case wouldnít prove anything to LF as she honestly feels that I am being honest with myself that I love her and that I would also read honest in the lie detector test if asked whether I still had feelings. She fears that at one point of time or other, the feelings that existed before regarding the OW will come to the surface again and that I will never be rid of those feelings.
If this scenario fits your thoughts then in this case, I donít have any answers. I have never been able to figure out how to prove a negative. How do I prove that my love doesnít exist anymore? Remorse and consistent actions expressing love wonít prove that I donít care for the OW; they merely prove that I also love my wife. Catch 22.
Imagrownup - He kept it up kept it up - why is this called FOG?
Because he was pulled in two different directions and that his heart and mind were in conflict, he was stumbling around like a drunk in the fog. He wasnít sure which direction to follow and he would keep going around in circles. Now if that continues for too long, itís not a matter of being in the fog as perhaps simply being a cake eater.
Imagrownup - What looks like a duck acts like one is one- I feel he loved her no matter what he says now. Since he couldn't stop seeing her - I made no difference for so long- who do you think he really cares for- Is he here for the kids?
You know what, perhaps he did love her. Thatís bad but the real question right now should be is he still in love with her? What does your gut really say? Do you think his actions are deceitful? Do you think that his transparency is a sham? DO you think that he has moved his affair underground?
I canít answer that question. The truth is that WSís who seemed to the paradigm of WS behaviour with remorse and regret oozing out of their body have eventually been proved to be in false R. And other WSís who struggle with the fog turn out to be the most remorseful in the long run.
Imagrownup - He is doing everything. He needs to leave his job, but do I want to be with someone who had to work so hard to be with me?
I agree that you should make the job a boundary issue. If he really is committed to R and you draw the line, then he will quit. He may be angry and hurt but he will support you. IF he refuses to leave and is willing to sacrifice the marriage over this issue, well I think you have your proof there.
With reference to being with a husband who had to do so much work to be with you, well again, thatís your decision. The truth is that R is not for sissies and the journey of a WS from the dark side to the light can be a very difficult journey. If you give up when the going gets rough, you may be giving up too early and thatís why itís often said that no one should make the major decision in the first year. On the other hand, only you can protect your heart and only you can tell what price you are willing to put forward. You know that you can never rebuild trust without becoming vulnerable again, donít you? Sooner or later a certain amount of trust has to be granted to the WS.
Bunnyhop - Within my boundaries are green pastures, beyond an abyss.
4 kiddos in lower 20's
ďCourage is the price that life exacts for granting peace."
I know I am probably the last person you want to hear from but I wanted to tell you how sorry I am for causing you sorrow. I should have known better and I should have acted like an adult. I realize I put your family in jeopardy and I am so sorry about this. I know he loves his kids more than anything and I didnít step back in time to protect that. Every adult needs to protect all children, even if they donít know them and in this respect, I failed miserably. Iím so sorry for this. Even though my children are nearly grown, I can tell you that while my husband and I were dealing with the fallout of this, we dropped the ball on our parenting. Because your children are young, I imagine you had to go through the day trying your hardest to parent yet your mind was probably elsewhere. Iím so sorry I was part of the cause of this. It is not fair to you or your children.
Iím sorry I did not respect the vows you made with your husband. Iím sorry I put your marriage in jeopardy. I had no right to engage in intimacy with anyone other than my own husband. I caused him so much pain and I was a part in causing your pain. I should have put a stop to any communication between your husband and I and I didnít. Iím so sorry.
Please know I will never communicate with your husband again. I will go out of my way to avoid contact with all of you. And, Iím so sorry my selfishness caused you pain.
[This message edited by so-crushed at 5:48 PM, December 9th (Thursday)]
"You're gonna catch a cold
From the ice inside your soul"
I bought it and read it right away, but he has only made it about half way through (in seven months!) I do not want to nag him about it and I know how hard it is for him to read it, but I really think it would be helpful to both of us. I asked him about it a few days ago and he told me he just could not face it--it was too hard. So now what? I feel like I have asked so little of him, in the big scheme of things. Why can't he do it? And if it hurts so much, it makes me think that he is suppressing things that really need to be aired out and examined. Any advice?
And if it hurts so much, it makes me think that he is suppressing things that really need to be aired out and examined. Any advice?
"After the Affair" was the first book recommended to Wells and I after D-Day. At Wells suggestion, we bought two copies so we each had our own. We then agreed that as we both completed a chapter, we would discuss that chapter together and our reflections on it.
I think taking it chapter by chapter helped a lot. Trying to plow through the book cover to cover is pretty daunting in the face of having had an A. But as we discussed just the content of one chapter, and I came to find that Wells was listening to me without immediately dismissing what I had to say it got more and more comfortable to work through the book.
Perhaps that may be a good approach for you as well. Suggest that you start by discussing just what's in Chapter 1 instead of taking the whole thing head on. Allow for the thoughts and feelings to evolve over time.
I was wondering if as a WS you use or allow images of your AP into your mind when you either masturbate or have sex with your spouse (if you sometimes need a little help)
Not in my case. First of all, xMOW was an equal partner in the damaging of our M. I'll own my piece, but her role in it all leaves me with a far less attractive picture of her in my mind.
In addition, I refuse to let anyone else into moments that belong solely to my BW and I. The more I focus on what I can give to her, the more intense the feeling is for me as well.