FmrLIer - Any suggestions on how to lay out my boundaries to fWH? .... I want to make sure it's clear that if it happens, I want to know about it..... How do I remain "strict" and "understanding?
Indeed, a very tricky trick to accomplish.... setting out the boundaries is the easy part. A written document, I believe, works best. That way, there cannot be any future arguments about intent. No arguing that I thought you meant this or you didnít tell me that. It sets out the rules and it must also set out the consequences.
The reason it must clearly spell out the consequences is the simple fact that he may lapse. Itís not a certainty but itís quite the possibility and it would be best if that the consequences were laid out front and cente.
As to what they are, well, thatís up to you. If he is flipping through the newspaper and spots the ďsunshine girl posterĒ, well, I can imagine the consequence for that would not be the same as finding a new on-line identity for another OA.
As far as getting him to confess to violations, well, thatís were it becomes tricky again. IMHO, you need to create a safe place for him to confess to. If he was to confess to a counsellor, he would get more understanding and support than he would get shit for his lapse. The same must apply for you. If you get angry and hurtful, then he will simply stop confessing. He will go underground with his lapses and try to deal with them on his own. He will not be able to open up and confess if you berate him for simply trying and not doing or if you get angry or use this to rehash the entire A again.
I might be off base but I think that the only way he will be open to confessing lapses to you is if you can simply say, Oh honey, you know that was wrong, why did you have to lapse and what can we do to help you overcome this next timeĒ or something on this line. Blowing him out of the water will simply force him to hide his transgressions.
However, I donít have problems with the issue of ďconsequencesĒ being brought up if done after the fact. As you said, "strict and understanding' at the same time.
[This message edited by HUFI-PUFI at 10:50 AM, November 22nd (Monday)]
I need help from a wayward! I am wondering if a wayward out here who's affair was with a co-worker and still works with that person would be willing to pm me and answer a few questions roaming through my head. They are mostly general questions like how do you feel when you see that person, do you miss them when you see them, how did the attraction cease after being caught.....etc.
My husbands affair was with a co-worker who he still works with, not closely but still the same building. I'm trying very hard to understand and grasp that it is possible that he sees her and feels nothing. I am having a hard time understanding that he was so attracted to her then got caught and now she is unattractive, maybe you can make me understand since I am not angry with YOU and might actually listen. I know it's an odd request but it's worth a shot. Thanks!
I'm a FWW, so my answer might be a little different on a few levels. But I thought I'd take a stab.
First, I no longer work with the OM. Thank heavens. But I know how I feel about him. He's garbage. I took a little bit to get there. But I got there by seeing the truth. He is not a good man. He is not a kind man. Because the fanstasy (for me) has been destroyed. I see clearly.
As far as how I would feel if I had to see him everyday?? I couldn't deal with it. I would have to leave my job. That's tough in this economy, I know. As much as a BS thinks about the A every day, we WS spouses do to. Those that are remorseful think about the destruction it has caused. To have to face the reality of what I've done everyday at home and then to deal with t at work is just too much.
My OM is not at the compnay any longer, however co-workers know what happened. It's a walk of shame everyday.
I try to prove to me, to my BH, and to my co-workers that I"M NOT THE SAME WOMAN.
The OM is not attractive to me at all. I work hard to erase that memory. It's much the same as my BH saying I'm not attractive to him. Because he sees me for who I was. NOt the beautiful wife he married.
I don't know if your H really feels indifferent or not. But if he is remorseful and he is showing you this. Then maybe he really is indifferent.
It's tough and I'm sorry that this is an added hurdle for you. Still working with the AP has it's own challenges.
Good luck. I hope I helped in a small way.
I pray everyday for forgiveness.
We have frequent discussion about our rings. He took his off Dday and it's still off. I wear my grandmothers and not mine. He does not want his nor does he want me to even have mine. For me, if my H would want to wear a ring to symbolize that he's married and committed to me, I wouldn't care what it was new or old.
That's just me though.
I would love to one day be able to take my diamond and put it in a new set.
As far as how to help him. Talk to him honestly. Let him know that the old rings are painful memory of what was promised and what was broken. Be honest about your feelings. Explain that your old set triggers you or whatever you are feeling. Maybe even include (if this is how you feel) that are altered the rings just as the marriage is altered. The sentiment is still there is just looks a little different. You are both different people now and always will be.
There are a lot of discussions about rings all over these boards. Most get new ones completely. I would be honored. But that's just me.
Damaged2010 - Since the affair numerous times during sex he just loses his erection, I am trying not to make him feel bad about it but it's killing me. I am already dealing with feeling unattractive and not good enough and all of that which comes along with this and now this? Does this confirm that he is no longer attracted to me? Does it confirm that he preferred her? Or could there be another reason?
If you think itís embarrassing to ask, then imagine how embarrassing it is to answer. LOL
Well, I canít deny that you may have some grounds for your suspicions but I do think there can be other reasons and thatís based on my own experience. Post A, the ability to sustain an erection has been an infrequent but ongoing issue. While some might worry that it indicates an issue with being attracted to my spouse, I donít agree. The reason that I donít think it has anything to do with my feelings to my wife is that we did enjoy some weeks of HB with absolutely no issue.
In my case, the ED issues arose afterwards. I think they have to do with lingering guilt issues that arise as we make love. I canít help but be triggered by the remembrance that I had told the OW that she was attractive and that I loved her. Those of course, are the very words that I am saying to my wife as we make love. There is a conflict there and its taking its toll on the physiological action needed to sustain an erection. Another trigger is the fact that my wife has lost a lot of weight in the past year as a result of my affair and therefore her very appearance triggers my emotions of guilt and shame. Itís hard to feel guilt and shame and still feel sexually excited.
The good news is that some modern chemistry (viagra) is helpful as is trying to relax and ensure that my mood is focused on my wife and not being allowed to drift into memory land. And of course, this is even weirder because I never did have any physical relationship with the AP anyhow, since it was an EA.
Could it be that heís not attracted or he prefers her? The sad answer is that everything is possible but it also could be very true that he is simply having physiological issues based on the guilt and shame that he struggling with.
(still slightly embarrassed!)
H is embarrassed obviously and he professes that he is still attracted to me, maybe even more since the weight loss that apparently is normal. But since losing the weight in such an unhealthy fashion I have started working out to tone up and keep it off the healthy way. He said he didn't/doesn't know why it happened but once it happens it messes with a man, they get nervous and it affects performance. He says now he feels worried that it's going to happen which can just make it happen.
Anyway, thanks again HUFI, it was really starting to tweak me out but to hear this happened to you after a no sex A helps because my crazy mind was taking it that he must have lied and had sex with her and now sex with me is no good. I do feel a bit better!
My H is remorseful and is doing what I ask, but since were still kind of fresh here when he says these things someone in my head just says "YEA RIGHT....YOU'RE A LIAR" so it's very hard to even communicate about these issues. I am asking questions knowing that I won't believe any answer he gives...sigh..I am working on it! Thanks again!
My question now is what does the WS need? What can I do to help our R. I now recognize that I have been quite hard on him, expectedly I suppose but now I want to change also. I have rejected his efforts and said it's not good enough, nothing he has said or done is good enough because I WAS needing him to take away my pain which although he would love to, he can not. It's just not possible! He can help me through my pain but to think there is something he can do or say that will simply erase my pain and resenting him for not figuring it out is wrong. I love him madly, yes just the same as pre A and I just want our life back. Sometimes I feel it's hard to show him how much I love him without feeling vulnerable.
Soooo what do WS's need? What can I do to reassure HIM that I still love him and we WILL get through this? I want a genuine healthy R and for that I think we both need to be there for each other and I am finally seeing that I am not the only one here who is f***ed up and needs support. And if his marriage is now a life sentence to be persecuted over and over and over for the same crime, I wouldn't expect him to be happy with that and an unhappy/unhealthy marriage is what landed most of us here in the first place.
I want honest answers please, no need to be gentle with me....I am asking for raw reality. I know most here say its healthy to talk about the A and all but if from the WW's point of view you'd like us to just shut up already, please by all means say that. Take off the gloves and let me have it....I need this!
Once again, you have provided me with wonderful advice. Thank you
As crazy as it sounds, I asked him to write a note to me that he would not have another OA and he did. He added in a bunch of other things on his own to and made if "official" looking.
I let him know that if he has a lapse, that he can come to me and we can try to figure out why. The important thing is to communicate. Our 2nd MC appt is next week and we'll begin a roadmap from there.
I'm going to work on a written set of boundries this weekend.
Again, Hufi, thank you!
Ignorance was bliss but it wasn't the reality of my marriage...
Damaged2010 - My question is what does the WS need? What can I do to help our R?
Well if you want honesty and reality ... LOL ..
First of all, I think that asking this question already shows that your journey is well on its way. In one of the books that I am reading it talks about integrating your loss in your life by coming to terms with your loss and letting there be an cceptance of the new reality. I think that if you can ask how to help heal my WS after having your heart broken, then you are being a very amazing wife and person.
Damaged2010 - I know most here say itís healthy to talk about the A and all but if from the WW's point of view you'd like us to just shut up already, please by all means say that.
Seriously, perhaps many of us ĎwishĒ there was a magic want for healing but we know differently. If I thought that I could just stop talking and then the hurt and pain would disappear, I would gladly sign up for a vow of silence. Not because I donít want to talk about the affair but rather because I really truly wish you didnít have to live with pain and anger and worry and suspicions and angst and sadness forever and again.
Damaged2010 - I now recognize that I have been quite hard on him, expectedly I suppose but now I want to change also. I have rejected his efforts and said it's not good enough, nothing he has said or done is good enough because I WAS needing him to take away my pain which although he would love to, he cannot. It's just not possible! He can help me through my pain but to think there is something he can do or say that will simply erase my pain and resenting him for not figuring it out is wrong.
So tell him that. Write him a letter, sing him a song. Tell him that you have reached a level of acceptance and understanding. Let him know that his efforts at taking away your pain has worked and while itís not all gone, most of it is. As a WS, we have grown accustomed to having our weakness thrown at us. Weíre used to being vilified and demonized for good reason. And so, a compliment and recognition of our efforts goes a very very very long way. Day in and day out as we see the impact of our affairs on the emotions of our spouse, it becomes hard to accept that you can love us enough to give us forgiveness and mercy. Perhaps itís because so many of us fear that if the tables were reversed, that we would not be capable of such mercy and grace. Giving us a pat on the pat and some kind words means that we gain faith and strength and hope in ourselves and in our futures.
Damaged2010 - I love him madly, yes just the same as pre A and I just want our life back. Sometimes I feel it's hard to show him how much I love him without feeling vulnerable.
While this might be the hardest thing for you to do, it also will be the greatest gift that you can give to a FWS. Just allowing yourself to be vulnerable again means that we have somehow earned a measure of trust once more. More precious than gold.
Damaged2010 - What can I do to reassure HIM that I still love him and we WILL get through this?
Jus speak those words to him. Somehow perhaps let him know that you would look favourably if he raised the issue of new rings and some ceremony of affirmation and recommitment. I donít know about your H but inside of me is the heart of a poet and a great big mush ball of emotions that I struggle to raise. But I think that if you express the sentiment the right way, any FWS with a head on his shoulders and a thimbleful of remorse will want this.
Damaged2010 - I want a genuine healthy R and for that I think we both need to be there for each other and I am finally seeing that I am not the only one here who is f***ed up and needs support.
Today my IC told me to stop using the word ďbutĒ in my conversations with regard to my own healing process and I think it would be helpful if you paraphrase your own sentences. Change the "I want" to "I am working on" and then get your H to do the same. Stop trying and simply do.
Damaged2010 - And if his marriage is now a life sentence to be persecuted over and over and over for the same crime, I wouldn't expect him to be happy with that and an unhappy/unhealthy marriage is what landed most of us here in the first place.
I think if the hard work has been started to find the reasons why and youíve established boundaries that support that and that remorse and reassurance are part of your everyday life now, you are well on your way to reconciliation. Stopping the cycle of recrimination and guilt definitely is needed for successful R.
So, what do we have? Words of trust, of acceptance, of love, of a future together. I donít know about your H but its sounding good to me right here! As a FWS who is still struggling with the issue of self-worth post A, I think that affirmation is what I want and need the most. Something to say that it will be okay, Iím here for you, I love you still.
BetrayedSAHM - Fight for your marriage. Always fight for it harder than she is.
[This message edited by HUFI-PUFI at 5:24 PM, November 25th (Thursday)]
FmrLIer - As crazy as it sounds, I asked him to write a note to me that he would not have another OA and he did. He added in a bunch of other things on his own to and made it "official" looking.
And he did!
See what positive thinking can do?
[This message edited by HUFI-PUFI at 5:28 PM, November 25th (Thursday)]
He seems to be transparent and remorseful for the most part, but I cannot believe this no sex after 5 years thing...
My WH had a LTA of 5 years and insists that although they kissed, no sex happened.. Can this possibly be true?
If he seems transparent, but his words don't jive with you, then it seems you're at an impasse. This ordeal is very fresh for you, so my advice is that you find a marital counsellor, if that's an option. Is your WS a member of SI?
My question now is what does the WS need? What can I do to help our R.
I now recognize that I have been quite hard on him, expectedly I suppose but now I want to change also.
I have rejected his efforts and said it's not good enough, nothing he has said or done is good enough because I WAS needing him to take away my pain which although he would love to, he can not. It's just not possible!
He can help me through my pain but to think there is something he can do or say that will simply erase my pain and resenting him for not figuring it out is wrong. I love him madly, yes just the same as pre A and I just want our life back. Sometimes I feel it's hard to show him how much I love him without feeling vulnerable.
Is your WS a member of SI?
Manascend-thank you so much for your reply. My WH did recently join and has posted a few times on wayward side. (hurtful)
I am not sure if he joined just for me, or is truly interested in self-help...
ShockedandNumb - Question for WS's... My WH had a LTA of 5 years and insists that although they kissed, no sex happened.. Can this possibly be true? I am not buying it.
Mathematically speaking, itís as manAscending said, there is always the possibility but you have to really calculate the probabilities. No one really knows except your H and the OW.
Here is the kicker. Your husband can not prove a negative. There is simply no way that he can prove that he did not have sex but you can!
You have the ability to prove this one way or the other. By reaching out to the OW, you might be able to get her side of the story and the details just may collaborate your husbandís story.
Yes, itís risky. It wonít be easy to open up and ask the OW but from reading posts here on SI, it has been done and done successfully. IMHO, itís the only way that you can ever prove to yourself what happened.
From your husbandís post, itís apparent that you are in the questioning stage right now and as you know firsthand, without answers, the questions will never go away. The continued questioning can become an impediment to recovery so itís in your best interest to prove this one way or the other. I donít think that you would have the trust in your husband to let him contact the OW for her witness statement and so, that leaves you to reach out to the OW.
And now that I think about it, you do have one other option. The polygraph test. You can ask him to take a lie detector test and ask him that specific question or questions to narrow down the truth. Perhaps it would be better if he proactively suggested the lie detector test but if he doesnít ask, you can always demand as part of your new boundaries.
With regards to the confusion as to why your husband joined, have you asked him this? I think that you have to ask him this. Your very question suggests that you do not trust his motives and his actions. You can't work on rebuilding trust and open communications if you don't ask questions to get his answers.
LoveFantasy - When you love someone you don't give up on them so easily... especially when you're angry.
With regards to the confusion as to why your husband joined, have you asked him this? I think that you have to ask him this. Your very question suggests that you do not trust his motives and his actions.
You are right Huff--I do not trust very much of anything my WH says or even does for that matter. A whole marriage of a deceitful person. I thought he was getting better with age and maturity, but to be honest, he just got better at lying and manipulating me. I used to be a very intuitive person, and would catch him every time. Either I slacked on my instincts or he is a Master now.
So, yes, I doubt him, he could be telling the 100% truth, I wouldn't know, because he sounds and acts NO different than when he was lying.
My advice is to leave the job as soon as possible. I realize that this may not be an option for most people, but NC is very important when trying to R with your BS for a wayward.
I agree with authenticnow that your wife is not being fair to be angry with you if you bring up the affair.
It is not you who she is angry with..it is herself. She is ashamed and feels guilty and dirty for what she did and she wants it to go away.
She lives it everyday at work, working with her AP and she is ashamed there. Then she hears it from you when she gets home and that amplifies her guilt, repulsion and self-loathing and she wants it all to go away.
Problem is..you don't get over this..you go through this.
She has to conquer her own demons and be open to your feelings about the affair. If she does not..you will never completely heal and neither will she.
She needs to leave that job ASAP or the co-worker needs to leave.
A consequence of having an affair to the WS is that they lose things that they may have enjoyed that was an avenue for the affair.
Unfortunately your wife is not being fair to you.
You do not need to "Get over it". You need to heal from it and since she was the culprit in causing you this pain, she needs to become the balm to help you heal.
This requires answering your questions..this requires removing everything that HER affair used to damage the marriage.
Your DDAy was in March of this year..it takes far longer to get over it than just 8 months.
What she is doing is called rug sweeping..that doesn't help at all.
I often call an affair a monster.
It's a monster created by the WS. In order to heal the marriage the WS must face the monster they created and kill it. They must kill everything used to create the monster as well as the monster itself.
This include lots of introspection and maybe professional help.
This requires being patient and really looking at yourself.
Your wife appears to not want to look at herself..she hates what she sees.
But she can't make this all about her..this is about what she did to the marriage and she alone is responsible for holding up her part in helping you heal.
You did not bring this sickness on yourself.
There may have been things you could have improved on..but those things did not warrant your wife cheating on you.
Also working with the co worker can rekindle things between the two.
Has she exposed at work?
Has she made it to where there is extremely limited contact until one of them can be moved or leaves the job.
We must all suffer the consequences of infidelity..those of us who chose to stray.
Losing a job could be a consequence if it is going to be the catalyst in losing a marriage.
A true remoseful WS gets that and works toward that.
[This message edited by floridaredman at 8:14 AM, November 30th (Tuesday)]
My fWH is very remorseful for his OA. For the most part, he's been open to discussions and I've stopped bombarding him with questions. We now have a talk once or twice I week if I need it.
Through these talks I'm finding that he's suffered a major hit to his self-worth. My first gut reaction was good, you deserve it, but not anymore. He's having a hard time getting past it. I've explained to him that I'm suffering too, my self-esteem is shot and now I'm full of hurt and anger. He recognizes this but then says that's why his self worth is shot.
How do I help him start to regain his self worth? I make sure I tell him how much I love him, just not what he did, and that he's a good husband/father otherwise I wouldn't be fighting for our marriage.