Rule #1 - Under NO circumstances am I to drink at any company function. It was a lot the swallow at first. But since I also wanted to improve my image at work it wasn't that bad. I'm lucky that we only have a Christmas party during the day and not at night. I would be on the street if I rolled in at 4:30am at this point.
Rule #2 Under no circumstances am I to hang out at bars with girlfriends. Married women do not belong in bars without their spouses. I know that sounds crazy and harss, but I do agree with it.
Rule #3 anyone who knew about the A is no longer a friend. These people whether they "sopported" the lie or not are no longer friends. There theory here is that if they didn't support it they should have told him and done something anything to stop me. There were only two friends that knew. One helped me hide it and is no longer part of our lives. The other never supported me, but we did go to bars together. Not a good friend to have.
Again to AllGoodnames...
Defogging. Very different for everyone. ListenClosley hit the nail for me. I even just wrote about it in the wayward forum.
I began to get out of the fog a tiny bit before the A even ended. That helped me a lot. During the A I thought for sure I cared about him. I knew then just as I know now I never loved him. I never said the words nor did he. But I was convinced I cared. I deceived myself into thinking I cared and he cared. Now that I see things for what they really were I know he didn't give a rats ass. I certianly don't give a rats ass about him now. But I sure did think I did at the time.
The obsession part I know all about. It's frightens me to know how obesses I got. I've never been that way in my life. My anaology is that of a drug addict. They know drugs kill you. But the need for the fix is so overpowering. They need more. I needed more. I wanted to feel desired. I wanted him to find me pretty, smart, skinny, etc...
It was all about external validation.
How did I defog? My BH did it for me. He pointed out every lie I told myself. It helped that the OM dropped me like a sack of potatoes as soon as my H called him.
Every lie I told myself druing that time was unraveled. I told my H everything. All conversations I could remember, all events, everything. He gave me the "male" perspective. That's when I realized how much of a losey person he was and how cheap I was.
Once you view yourself in that cheap filthy light it's hard to stay in the fog.
As I posted eariler, I'm angry with him. But I realize that I'm really angry with myself. It's easier for the human mind to deflect anger toweards someone else rather than on yourself. He took advantage of me and I allowed it. That really pisses me off!
As far as protecting the AP. If they are doing this they are still in the fog. I did it a little in the beginning.It was more about protecting my fantasy world that I had created for myself than really the AP.
I defended the AP very little even when we were at the beginning. I went along with anything my H suggested. I believed once that the AP was a good person (for example) and said so to my H (hurtful BTW). My H said what was good about him? He is a cheater. Couldn;t argue that point... It was conversations like this that helped.
As for cake-eating, it wasn't an option. I either got my shit together and fast or I was out. He pulled out all the stops even threathen to arrest me for breech of contract. Yes, in some states its a crime.
I was snapped out of fantasy and into reality very quick.
The other question was how do you go from loving to not loving the AP? Easy... As much as the WS demolized the BS the WS now has to demonlize the AP. But it's really not demolizing its truth seeking.
Was the AP a good person? NO, they had an A with a married person or they too were married. That does not make them good.
Was the AP an honest person? NO, they lied to the WS and they lied to their BS (assuming they were married too).
You have to pick it all apart. I was lucky and my H did that for me. Crawled up my rear end and stayed there until "I Got it". I got it all right. I saw the truth.
Dealing w triggers and your WS. I've been really supportive of my BH when he triggers. We are more than a year out and it's been a rollercoaster. I'm sorry that he didn't handle your trigger well. I know I hate to be reminded how much I hurt my BH. I know it everyday in my heart. I don't tell him as much as I should. I have days when I do say something and other days when I don;t. After so many LONG conversations and hurtful words I really never want to talk about it again. Is this healthy? NO, I know that. But I dread talking about it again. Every time we talk about it I have to relive those horrible memories. The memories of what I've done and what I did to him and my kids. It makes my sick (literally).
I will say I do NOT ever get defensive about checking up on me. I am always willing to hand over the phone. I provide him information. He has never searched or dug, but I give me copies of stuff. I take pictures. I send me my contacts. I remind him of my passwords.
I want to do whatever it takes to reesablish trust.
I made up my mind a while ago that I wanted my H and I was going to do everything in my power to win him back. BUT I was going to do it honestly and openingly. I put it in my head that I would NOT fail. Having that mentality has really helped in tough times.
I'm sorry to all BS for their pain. It is unbearable. God Speed.
I pray everyday for forgiveness.
Did you ever think about your spouse while you were having sex with the AP? Not the 'I shouldn't be doing this' buzz in the back ground, but wishing it was your BS you were with?
I'd never have spent the money on a wedding dress if I knew I was just going to a costume party.
Did you ever think about your spouse while you were having sex with the AP?
The compartmentalisation made the sex very conscious, when you'd normally think that sex and thought would be antithetical. Thinking about my wife--that buzz in the background--ran rudely with the concept of how Hollywood portrays a lot of affair sex (e.g., as fun, an escape, or what have you). The mental shame and the physical pleasure were like oil and water. Together, they ushered in an extremely unpleasant degree of objectivity to what I was doing.
Since that was my mindset, I never consciously wished that it was my wife there instead. If she would have seen what I was doing at the time, I would have withered and died. And if it was her there from the get-go, I never would have been in the overconscious mindset of trying to shove her from my head.
I am wondering how many of you ws started out being addicted to porn? [N]ow I am wondering if this may be part of the reason [my WS] had the A.
I wouldn't say that I had an A directly because of the porn. I never looked at porn and thought, "I'm going to find an AP who'll do _that_ with me." It was much more subtle than that.
Overexposure to porn nuanced my views about normalcy with regards to sex. So for example, although not everyone goes around having romps in their workplace, I'm certain that porn had a role to play in me allowing myself to say that having sex at work wasn't all that un-normal. Maybe a good way of putting it is that my addiction to porn made me somewhat susceptible to believing in ways of relating that simply aren't true. While porn didn't cause me to have an A, it sure as hell helped create wacked ideas about the nature and role of sex in (and ultimately outside of) love relationships.
Thanks for responding to my question which was
My question is besides d-Day what other events typically snaps WS to come out of the fog regardless of whether the state of the M is in R,S,or D?
Can remorse/fog lifting come much later down the road or never at all?
As a BH I have been frustrated with my WW's deep fog, her inability to NC, and total lack of remorse. I don't know my current WW, the one I loved is gone. The A and this Fog really took shape in May 2010; that is when I noticed my WW lies, detachment to me, and the need for constant contact with mOM ) My WW finally admitted to PA in Oct 2010.
We are going through D proceedings because I want to move on. Last night for the 1st time my WW calls me sobbing and crying and tells me how very sorry she is for everything she did to me.
I guess I got my answer to my remorse/fog lifting question I posted here. Not sure when/if I can ever forgive her, probably with time I will someday.
I wished she would have expressed remorse months earlier, maybe we might of had a chance to R. But after 6 months of only myself wanting to R and 8 months of no remorse from my WW; it was enough. Unfortunately the A had pretty much destroyed our M
Also, WBF refers to our Q&A sessions as "interrogations." I've told him that I am not asking these questions to crucify him or make him feel bad, I just need to know what happened so that I can deal with it. I am completely unemotional during these sessions and always thank him for answering my questions. Yet he still sees the Q&A as a sort of punishment. How do I convince him the Q&A sessions aren't meant to be hurtful to him?
Finally, I've uncovered some evidence (texts, voicemails, e-mails and stuff from both OWs' blogs and dating site profiles) that indicated the relationships, particularly the relationship with OW #2, were far more serious and emotionally involved than he says. Really, it's the continued lies and cover-up that are pissing me off; whatever happened with those women happened, and nothing can change it. The only thing that can change is his willingness to tell the damn truth. Is there anything I can say or do to stop the TT? Or do I just call him on it?
I went back and read a few of your posts. You are letting him set the tone for R at a time when you should be the primary focus. At the front end of R (which I don't think you are in entirely because you still don't have all of the truth), the WS should be giving and offering things to the BS in order to help them. Sure, the WS needs to feel safe, but there is feeling safe, then there is avoidance. If he was actively scheduling MC as often as feasible and not telling you that he feels it is more interrogation, then I would say things were okay as long as you agreed to it. The current situation though is a cover for him to hold back on telling you the truth. It is likely that he won't tell you anything that you don't specifically ask about.
I would suggest that at your next MC, you confront him with the new info and then lay down YOUR requirements of him. You can do this by requesting a timeline from him. You can give him a list of questions. You can tell him to write everything out and to include EVERYTHING.
Where is your line in the sand? What do you think his reaction will be if you put your foot down and change the Q&A sessions only happening in front of MC? His reaction will either show you that he is serious or that he is still protecting himself.
Do you expect your WS to keep you informed about their progress in IC?
There has been many topics/questions that I've told my WH he needs to discuss in IC. He has seen his IC at least 5 times since Dday, yet I've heard nothing that indicates he is making any progress towards feeling remorse. Do I have to dig and pry to get him to talk about this? Am I expecting too much? I know I am very impatient with this, but d*mn it, I'm in pain!!! Maybe I just have to expect no end to it.
You'd think WH would want me to know how hard he's working (if he is). But then, maybe he's just not getting anywhere in IC?
So, do I have to just wait for his to share his IC epiphanies? Do I have to ask?
So very frustrated. So very discouraged.
I personally believe that IC is a private matter, sort of like journals. That being said, if the WS is using IC and journals to wallow in memories of the A, then that is not a good thing and you have a right to know if that is going on.
You should let him know what you expect.
Now, 2 years out, I will occasionally go to IC, but I don't share anymore. It's maintenance stuff for SA and I want to keep it private. (Kind of like I wouldn't share beyond logistics of 12-step.)
I do understand that IC is a private thing and I don't really care to hear any details of WH's IC sessions. But I would really like to hear updates of some kind that ensures me that he's not wallowing in self-pity and blaming me for his choice to step outside of the marriage, which was his initial explanation for the A.
He continues to make comments that allude to this same mind-set, but when I ask if he is blaming me for his bad choices he says no and tries to back-peddle to make his comment appear less blaming.
Also, he has said he has yet to feel guilt and remorse, which I feel to be crucial to R. I'm feeling rather impatient and anxious to hear and see this. w/o remorse, I see no future for our M.
Yeah, I did what your WH is doing. I was having a very hard time moving past those feelings and IC didn't help me along the path that I should have been travelling but rather helped me experience those feelings from the A longer because that is what she thought I wanted to do. So I should have dumped my IC a lot sooner.
Maybe you could set up a joint session with his IC to show a united front of what you and your WH expect out of IC. That might shed some light on things with his IC and force some movement/stop the potential lying or wallowing that is going on in his IC. Actually, maybe having a monthly check-in would help. Not going over the history of his IC, but just checking in, sort of like a mini-MC effort.
For example, I through WH a surprise b-day party. Two weeks later he began his relationship with OW. I confronted him that I was worried he was being unfaithful, and hours later he had sex with her the first time.
I don't understand how he could betray me like he did right after I had been thoughtful and right after I told him my concerns. Can anyone explain to me how he may have compartmentalized? I feel like if a b-day party can't keep him happy and faithful, then what can?
WH says he was an ass and only cared about himself. Is that really it? My thoughtful gestures had no impact on him? How can some lead seemingly double lives and tell themselves they aren't doing anything wrong?
Married 8 years.
Hubs is firm in recovery from SA and is like a new man and husband. We are happily reconciling and making great progress...nope, ass is back
WBF did not confess about how OW#1 was also a PA, he only admitted after much TTing that she was an EA. I get why he was scared to tell me- fear of me leaving, fear of hurting me... He seems to be coming out of the fog and I feel his attemtps at working on us are sincere this time. My question is aside from my intuition, how can I tell if he's really sincere on working towards R? How do I know he has given me the full truth? How do I know I can believe him when he says he wants me and nobody else?
forgiven and in R :)
"To err is human.
He will probably screw up somewhere in this process. When he does, or if he has, what is his reaction? Does he realize it? does he blameshift? Do you feel safe?
Is he present?
Is he remorseful yet? or is he just feeling guilty?
All of those things help your intuition to know if you have the whole truth and whether or not he really wants you and nobody else. The answers are different for everyone.
Do you feel that this made a difference in WHEN you choose to cheat in your marriage?
Or was it simply meeting someone who you had a strong attraction to and wanting to take the opportunity?