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User Topic: Betrayed Men-Part 6 (Men only)
StillGoing
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Default  Posted: 9:46 AM, December 12th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


jasper,

atsenoie summed up most of it. Her wanting to R but not being ready is not going to be R.

The little shit is just the nag-list. The nag-list goes away when she gets over her shit. It goes away because people trying to fix things try to fix them instead of play blame games, which is what the nag-list is about: blaming you for her shit.

Unless you are pulling some passive-aggressive stuff then there's not much to be done there. The way you cope with fuck ups is just try to not fuck up. Life is full of small fuck ups. If she doesn't believe that then she is just going to be miserable her entire life no matter where she goes. That isn't your responsibility.

How does she confront you? Obviously you are pissed about it so the way she is doing it is setting you off. If she is coming in antagonistic and hostile then you're gonna respond that way unless you have some serious self-control. If you can calmly and rationally explain how she is coming in hostile, body language, word usage, etc, then that can help.

Ofc, being calm and rational under the nastiness is easier said than done.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 9:46 AM, December 12th (Sunday)]


Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.

Posts: 7116 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
jjct
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Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 2:03 PM, December 12th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

jasper, your question about R made me go back to find some of the things wal has written about it. As usual-per-wal, things that were surprisingly insightful and unique (especially to me of course, since I'm not in R). I think it was on the previous thread (Part 5), since I couldn't find it on this one.

I remembered it had to do with how his & his wife's feelings have reversed, as it were, and she's the one who is dealing with the heavier emotional load...

Just a note too - this place really is like the *bible of how to heal*, and re-reading threads REALLY HELPS. I am so much stronger, wiser, and more sure of "the right things to do" especially after having reviewed...so if you have time on a lazy weekend, or that annoying time between commutes known as 'work' - check it out.

I even got me some *REALIZATION ALERTS!*
Re-reading (like the bible?-heh!) reminds me of the occasional worry you see expressed on SI @ 'SI keeping me down', or 'SI obsession- will I ever get over it?'
Right now I'm thinking the opposite - like, with the incredible amount of wisdom contained here, it's foolish not to read and be forewarned, educated.

- how many times have we said and read; "if only I'd had SI!" ?
- think of the jokes (I've missed). That one about M being like a deck of cards? I'm dyin here.

StillGoing's point about the nag list is something I would have acknowledged in a somewhat "yeah yeah" casual way, pre A. But now?
I find it quite profound in its simplicity.
When it comes right down to it, did they control themselves?
No. Obviously!
So what do people who can't control themselves do?

Get all caught up with their dumbass, trying to control others. You.

Like I said, I'm not R'ing, nor even go in those threads, because I'd be screaming doormat at everyone - projecting my stuff, getting into trouble (well, more trouble )...you know, trying to save the whatever-out-of-ten it is who suffer false R.
At the core though, I hold the founders of this site, mods, and anyone else who does R in a sort of, I don't know...wondering regard.

From such a far outside R perspective, this troubles me a bit (not at you, ats - just on general principle):

As we move forward the A's have to be put in the past at some point.

Hope it's not my trigger, or nit-picking, but this smacks of the 'get over it already' meme.
A-memories, it seems to me are not "put" anywhere. They "go". On their own accord. Process. Time.

Once she started owning her shit and doing the work on herself, it no longer does my relationship with FWW any good for her to feel guilty or shame.

I still feel guilt and shame for things I did (in 5th grade - the last time I ever ever ever did anything whatsoever "bad"), but I use those feelings to make me better. iow, they are useful to me. They help me grow.
I get it, if it's not in a constantly moping about -way, sure,
but we often deride cultural decay on here. As part of the do-your-own-thing generation, part of that is the abhorrence of guilt; "guilt and shame are bad, we should do everything in our power to not to feel those things."

So - the caution is to not give guilt short shrift. If I was the WS, true R'ing - I'm not sure I'd ever stop feeling shame. And I'd make that a good thing. Not toxic. Not mopey.
(Check out John Bradshaw's stuff on toxic shame sometime).

Please believe me ats, I'm not trying to pick on you! But this made my freak flag fly (it's red):

I try to not bring up the A's because I know it hurts her to talk about it.

If you're past 'railing accusations', that's one thing. Different. Fine. I don't know...but in chez jj?
No. Way.
I'd need to feel free to say anything (just not hate-festing), any time. And I'd have her willingness to suffer the "hurt" - for my need for understanding and healing.
As long as it wasn't constant, degrading, or seemingly never-ending?
my needs to heal trump hers to not be hurt.

It's me time.
<burp> <scratch>


Posts: 6027 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
atsenaotie
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Default  Posted: 3:38 PM, December 12th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hey jjct, no problems, I do not feel picked on. I still sometimes wonder if I am making the right choice in choosing R, and trying to figure out pro-actively figure the path of least regret can sometimes be a tricky thing. What we are doing now seems to be working for both of us. I can spend a couple of hours thinking about her and the OM and get worked up over it, but I really rather spend the time thinking about other things. Maybe I can clarify some on a couple of quotes you pulled out.

As we move forward the A's have to be put in the past at some point.
and
Once she started owning her shit and doing the work on herself, it no longer does my relationship with FWW any good for her to feel guilty or shame.

I said put, an equally valid (perhaps better) word would have been left in the past. I know that it is my nature to continue to poke and examine things that don't make sense to me, or that I do not fully understand. With her A's, I understand the basics of how she got to where they seemed like a good idea, I know what she needs to correct within her to address her issues, and I know more than the basics of who, what, and when. Still, there are little inconsistencies, things I do not know, and 4 years of A's generates a huge number of details. I accept that I will never know them all, or even most of them. I do not think I need to, I know enough. For R to work for me, I need to focus on the present and look to the future. Going back 2 - 5 years to think about the As and ask her about details does not seem to help me towards healing or R anymore.

It is also in my interest for FWW to accept her past and forgive herself. Neither she nor I will ever forget her As nor the betrayal and lying involved, but I want her to feel good about herself going forward. I want her to be able to self-affirm. Continued guilt and toxic shame (she is actually re-reading Bradshaw these last couple of weeks) is not healthy for her moving forward and I believe puts her at greater risk of a repeat. A large part of her As was her seeking outside affirmation from the OM, because she felt worthless and inadequate.

I try to not bring up the A's because I know it hurts her to talk about it.

As I indicated above, I do not feel a need to bring up her affairs and ask questions or talk about them. I do not see this as rug sweeping, it is just that there is a greatly diminishing return in value of anything new I learn about her As versus the emotional toll on both of us re-visiting the details. I have learned enough to know the scope and depth of her involvement, and I can figure out most of the rest. For instance, she maintains they never came in her mouth or vaginally; that she always finished them by hand. I absolutely do not believe this. This may be what she wanted to do, or often did, but certainly not all the time. Do I need to keep asking her to know which was when, no. I know they had sex, I know they enjoyed it. Does it matter if it was 6 times or 10 times at this house? I think I know enough, and I will never know it all. I know she planned at different points to leave me and be with the OM. Do I need to know more details of plans they made and discussed?

Maybe this time next year I can let you all know if I took the right approach or not. We have had problems and struggles over the last 14 months, but for the last 6 months or so it has been more her issues of black and white thinking, projection, and insecurity causing the problems, not the As. She and the OM have all been NC since dday. At this point, I am watching to see if FWW can fix the personality traits that have been a problem for her all of her life. The As were really just a symptom of these difficult internal issues she is working on.

--Ats


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
longsadstory1952
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Default  Posted: 4:18 PM, December 12th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey Jasper. I saw your thread on the D/S board and my jaw hung open! Now she says she wants to "discuss" R? Maybe, sort of think about perhaps R, if the weather be good?

Shoot man. You have a right to be smug. We all have our failings, but she just spent 6 months tearing it up with OM and others. After an A of who knows how long full of lies. My take is that she sees you detaching and can't stand it so wants to keep you dangling.

My guess is that you could potentially see R. That is why you even bothered posting. Before you do that, go back and read your threads. Be very very careful here. You are getting it together and need her poison like you need rectal cancer.

[This message edited by longsadstory1952 at 4:20 PM, December 12th (Sunday)]


Posts: 357 | Registered: Jul 2010
jjct
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Default  Posted: 6:56 PM, December 12th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ats, got it. You're doing good work there. I'm hoping it works out and she can do the necessary lifting for you. Not discussing the A because you feel diminishing value in doing so, etc, is different from not doing it from hurt concerns. Thanks for clearing that up. Reading Bradshaw? Wow. A far FAR cry from the shiite titles discussed earlier.

Guys,
Keep kicking ass!


Posts: 6027 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
jasper
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Default  Posted: 8:07 PM, December 12th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

jjct, Ats, SG, Ozzy and others, thanks for the points and reminders. It all really reinforces what I think I've known since d-day. I don't have it in me. I love my WW in many ways, but I can't visualize, or project or dream any future with her where we have R'd and I'm happy.

Also, the fact that I even doubt her motives for wanting to R should indicate that it isn't going to happen. Deep down, I don't think she wants it, or is willing to do the work. I think she is unhappy and desperate and remorseful that she got caught, threw me away, and didn't have a back-up plan. And I even think she feels bad that she hurt me. But I don't think she's truly remorseful for what she did, and I don't think she'll ever be fully accountable.

On top of that, I'm just not that unhappy being single. Do I like having a broken family? No.

But I like the time I have alone. I like being a fuck-up and not having to apologize for it. I like leaving my sweats on the floor, and leaving my shoes wherever I take them off, and not getting nagged for it.

I really love the time I spend alone with my DD, without WW around being an energy-suck and wet blanket.

Being single feels good. Sex with women who aren't my WW feels really good. And going back to the life I had with her before, just isn't all that attractive.

So, I'm glad I've thought it through, and I'm glad you guys weighed in with your own thoughts. I needed to consider the possibility of R without sugar coating it. I think the D path is still the right path. Gotta stop dragging my feet now, and do it.


Posts: 696 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: New York
SourCherryDrops
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Default  Posted: 4:00 AM, December 13th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

7) we should meet for coffee some time
8) bumping uglies

unfortuantly thats pretty damn accurate, there often isnt much more between the first cup of coffee and 'bumping ugglies' as Razor puts it.


I made much, much more traction in my healing by simply assuming the worst about everything I did not know. If I could process the worst and still stay in the marriage, then the truth didn't matter. Saved me the trouble of processing something lesser, busting her with the truth and then having to get pissed off all over again about the new truth as well as the lies told to me

WAL, that is exactly the same approach that i used during my R, It held me in good stead, I was able to accept a reasoned assumption of the worst, and then when my wife finally gave an explanation that fit the facts and fell somewhere between the original line and my assumption it was allways accompanied with a sense of relief that i finally now had a story that made sense rather than being consumed with despair at the facts of the latest revelation. So my assumed worst slowly approached what was more likely the reality, just as her narative did.

@ Geeman, I had some pretty horrific, extremly vivid, fantasies, aimed both at the OM and at my WW, that had i enacted i would be having an indefinate stay at the taxpayers expense. I actually think these fantasies helped in relieving some of the anger some of the hate that i was feeling at the time. I coupled them with some vigourous violence against inanimate objects in the backyard to actually satisfy the physical need to 'bust something up'.

As for Kharam, IMHO thats just our own desire to feel like things might actually end up working out in somee way 'fair' but its just mind games, life aint fair, good guys get fucked over, and assholes get away with it all the time....

@ Jasper, during my attempt at R i made my own fair share of mistakes, in the begining my attitude was very similar to what you describe, that my mistake is nothing compared to screwing around... However after reading a post about how to appologise... i realised that actually how could i expect my WW to learn to appologise in a way i needed her to if i couldnt even learn to appologise for the 'little mistakes' i was making.... So, I decided, to put into practice what i read here. Ofcourse ultimately it didnt help my M... but ill take it with into the next Relationship. The formula went something like this.... say what your sorry for, acknowledge their feelings and thats it.... no explanation... leave the explanation for if they ask. the appology should not contain the word but... any explanation that does is immediately invalidated by what follows the but.


Me BS 37, Her STBX 34, 1*ONS, 1*EA 1*PA/EA, 2*PA
Heading for D after 9 mths of R

Posts: 1468 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: Europe
3yrwait
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Member # 29907
Default  Posted: 10:50 AM, December 13th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jasper,
IMHO if WW wants to R, it is up to her to make the effort the effort to R...which includes WW accepting your screw-ups, rather than reminding you of them.
In my recent experience, ever since my W showed remorse, she has also been more complimentary, less of a nag, and more accepting of my criticism than ever before. Hopefully this is not a short honeymoon phase.


Me: BH (early 40s)
Her: WW (early 40s)
Married 15 years
1 daughter, under 10
DDay July 2007

Posts: 450 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: 3yrwait
Mr. Kite
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Default  Posted: 12:11 PM, December 13th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Eye for an eye: Iranian man sentenced to have drops of acid poured onto his face for blinding his lover's husband

An Iranian man who blinded his lover's husband is to suffer a similar fate in a tit-for-tat sentencing - by having acid poured into his eye.

Irans Islamic code allows for an eye-for-an-eye, a tooth-for-a-tooth retribution - known as 'qisas' - in cases of violent crime.

The convict, named only as Mojtaba, threw acid in the face of his rival Alireza, a taxi driver, after an illicit affair with the victims wife, Mojdeh.

All three are 25 and live in Qom, Irans clerical nerve centre 60 miles south of the capital, Tehran.

The grotesque penalty was passed by a lower court and upheld by Irans supreme court, a government daily, Iran, reported this weekend.

The Qom prosecutor, Mostafa Barzegar Ganji, said the victim had used his right to qisas.

'We have asked for forensic specialists to oversee the blinding of the convict,' he added.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1337957/Eye-eye-Iranian-man-sentenced-drops-acid-poured-face-blinding-lovers-husband.html



Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
wincing_at_light
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Default  Posted: 12:19 PM, December 13th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I would have used the term "appropriate" rather than "grotesque" to describe the penalty (and wouldn't have been editorializing any more than the actual journalist).

I wonder what the journalist would have considered to be an appropriate penalty for fucking a guy's wife and then blinding him with acid? Fine him a few bucks and tell him he has to go NC?


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
Razor
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Default  Posted: 12:19 PM, December 13th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wife probably stoned to death. Both men blinded. I guess no one wins.

I wonder what the penalty is for the MAN who cheats with another mans wife?

Personally. And I will get flak for this. But I believe the penalties in our western countries are not severe enuf.

First. There should be some penalty for those who cheat. I know what I would like to see happen to OM. Dont know what to say about penalty for WW - may be should ask a BW for that.

Second. For violent crime. Attacks with out justification (ah there lies the rub.. what exactly is considered justified?) - yeh. Eye for Eye sounds about right to me.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
wincing_at_light
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Default  Posted: 12:24 PM, December 13th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I've come to believe that if a man fucks your wife, he should be treated as part of the marriage financially (since he's made himself part of it sexually).

In other words, when he's "divorced" by the couple, the BH is entitled to 25+% of his gross salary for a period of whatever-alimony-formula to life.

Pay to play and all that. Then, if the BH ends up divorcing his WW, he can also use the other guy's income to pay his WW's alimony.

Note: In my ideal world, the alimony from OM would not be considered "marital income", and wouldn't count for things like taxes, child support, alimony formulas, etc.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
Razor
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Default  Posted: 12:30 PM, December 13th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In financial terms.

I believe that if a D happens the BS should get 95% of every thing. WS can keep they clothes and may be they car. (thats the 5%) A BS should be able to SUE the OP for damages - physical and mental and also the financial losses.

kids should also go 100% to the BS

And there should be no *statute of limitations* on this. Just like on murder.

No matter how many years down the line. these same rules of property division apply.

In physical terms.

I would like to have OM nuts to keep in a jar on me desk.

Dont know what a BW would want in this arena from a WW.

[This message edited by Razor at 12:32 PM, December 13th (Monday)]


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
jasper
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Default  Posted: 12:37 PM, December 13th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow, I'm slow on the uptake. At first, I mistook the article as saying the BH was being was being sentenced for throwing acid in the OM's face, and I thought to myself "No fucking way that would fly in Iran."

Then I reread.

WAL and Razor, interesting points about the OM accepting some kind of financial accountability for his actions.

I think of this frequently when I consider how the OM and his BW are now whole again (financially, at least -- not emotionally), and then consider the financial shitshow I'm now dealing with.

I'd gladly have OM take on some of my financial burden, even though he is no longer in the picture.

And Razor, OM's nuts in a jar would be a happy keepsake as well.


Posts: 696 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: New York
wincing_at_light
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Default  Posted: 12:40 PM, December 13th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't think I'd want 95%, oddly enough. Sell it all off and use it to pay off existing debt, then just let me start from scratch without alimony or a huge debt overhead to weigh me down.

Then again, I think that even in cases not related to infidelity that alimony is stupid. Not worth going into all the arguments for why it's just and/or necessary here. It's stupid, and if you want to argue otherwise, you're welcome, but I won't participate in it. I don't argue about things I consider to be self-evidently stupid.

Of course, I also don't have to worry about it since my state is not an alimony state. If it ever becomes one, I'll divorce the night before the law goes into effect and co-habitate with my lovely bride thereafter. To me, divorce means you're agreeing that we should go our complete separate ways, and that includes financially. If you can't swing it on your own, find a way to make me rethink divorce.

(I realize that probably sounds really callous to BW's whose xH's are absolute dickholes. I'm not a BW, so it's not on my radar, and since I don't plan on being a divorcing-WH, it's moot. As this is the guy's thread, I don't have to apologize for it or pretend to include the fem perspective out of fairness. )

[This message edited by wincing_at_light at 12:45 PM, December 13th (Monday)]


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
Razor
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Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 12:57 PM, December 13th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WAL. at the getting away with remarks women wont like remark. May be they will stop speaking to us eh?

After Dday#1 WW told me directly that if I choose to D. She would do all she were able to come at me and bankrupt me. Even to a scorched earth campaign.

Alimony? eh. she spent all that running out to see her OM for all those years.

I hate it when I see a WS get away in good financial shape after a D. Some friends of friends had this happen. The WH D his BW. Took up with a girl that looks to be fresh out of secondary school (he is in his early 60s). They live in a nice house in a nice neighborhood. And are definitely not hurting financially. The BW? Last I hear she has struggled to buy a condo. Its in a reasonable part of town at least. But she isnt doing as well as her WH.

So I think the FAULT D should be the rule. Fuck this *no fault* shit. And the one at fault (WS) should give up pretty much every thing to the BS. But in the case of a family with out much assets. THEN I can see alimony being paid.

Friend of mine was a BH. He WW took up with a kid who live down the block - kid was still living with his parents. They D. 50/50 custody of kids. AND my friend (BH) has to pay $2500 / month in CS and alimony.

How the fuck is that fair?


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
OnceInALifetime
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Default  Posted: 1:33 PM, December 13th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In other words, when he's "divorced" by the couple, the BH is entitled to 25+% of his gross salary for a period of whatever-alimony-formula to life.

That's it!!! Sweet justice! I'd be fucking RICH, considering XW cheated with well over a dozen men. And to think of them all having to fork over 25% of their income to me, forever being penalized for the cruelty of their actions; that's just priceless.

As it stands, I'm the one being sentenced. I'm paying the whore so much that she's better off than me. And I'll be doing this for 15 years. And I ain't exactly young.

Thanks, WAL, for giving me something to daydream about. I never could quite grasp what would be justice for all the OM. You nailed it, perfectly.

[This message edited by OnceInALifetime at 3:33 PM, December 13th (Monday)]


BH, now divorced

Posts: 3012 | Registered: Oct 2009
wincing_at_light
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Default  Posted: 1:59 PM, December 13th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Consider it mutual, Once. I was actually pondering your situation when I came to the conclusion about how cool it would be to make the OM pay alimony.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
Razor
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Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 2:35 PM, December 13th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The problem is (of course) that under this same consideration. Would not you WW have to pay 25% to each of the BW of her OM? Unless me admittedly poor figuring skills have gone awry. That would be 300%.

So. If you stayed M to you WW. You would have to get a few extra jobs just to make ends meet.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
HurtingandLost
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Default  Posted: 2:58 PM, December 13th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I agree with you WAL - Alimony is another crutch for the "entitled" WW.

Depending on the state, Child Support Calculations automatically favor the Women too. Its assumed that the W is a better parent (Strike 1). Becuase of this the non custodial parent isnt allowed to spend equal amounts of time, especially if there is any geographic difference in location (new job, etc)(Strike 2). Then the court comes up with some formula that provides for more income than the BH was providing for during the time of marriage which in essence simply pays for the WW and OM's vacations three times a year to Vegas, Hawaii, and Mexico, while it is assumed that since you're still the father you can still buy all the clothes, pay for all the sports / dance, and school stuff ON TOP of the Child Support.....

Sorry for the rant, thats how my first divorce began. I fixed it but it took two and a half years.....

I'll go away now.


holding out hope
UPDATE: Hope's Dead

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