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User Topic: Betrayed Men-Part 6 (Men only)
jasper
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Member # 28168
Default  Posted: 8:26 AM, November 22nd (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Our relationship's conflict resolution model has been reduced to...replaying her version of our unhappy marriage to validate her unhappiness, pointing whatever issue that we are discussing is emotional abusive, and then drumming up on the computer the latest article on my mental illness of the week.

My WW continues to goad me into these discussions as well, despite the fact that we've been separated for 6 months. Minus the mental illness diagnoses. In her mind, I'm just a selfish prick. Not mentally ill. Not sure one accusation is better or worse than the other.

She accosted me this weekend at a social event (that she was not supposed to be attending) and, after laying into me about a bunch of different things, suggested we reconcile and tried to make out with me. Then, when I responded with "No. And WTF is wrong with you?" She went back to berating me, our marriage, our sex life. Really all shit I shouldn't have to deal with anymore, and thought I was done with.

The message I took away from the ambush was "fuck you, you are a selfish prick, let's reconcile, are you seriously telling me you don't want me, why don't you ever want to talk, fuck you then, it's really over this time, please consider reconciliation, please talk to me, fuck you, sex was always about you, never about me, you never want to talk about anything, you are a terrible communicator."

She had been drinking, but wasn't drunk (I know what drunk WW looks like, and this wasn't it). The whole event really shook me up.

Yesterday she asked if she could come over and "talk." Which was frustrating because the very best thing about being separated is that I don't have to participate in these fucking "talks" anymore. But I was curious about her behavior Saturday night, so I agreed.

It was a civil conversation, where she admitted she was confused about what she wanted, and also admitted that she had suddenly tried to force reconciliation because she felt threatened by the fact that I've been quietly seeing another woman.

She kept saying she wanted to talk about unfinished business, which was really confusing. What unfinished business could we have after 6 months of separation? Also, by being cuckolded and left, I've kind of earned the right to not have to talk about unfinished business.

What I realized is that A) she wanted to do some kind of post-mortem on our relationship, and B) since she hasn't been able to stick to a therapist (she quits whenever challenged in any way), she doesn't have an outlet for talking through all of her crap.

So I told her that there was no fucking way I was going to be her therapist and that she needed to deal with her unfinished business on her own. And that she was essentially looking for MC after the fact. I mean, it's like she wanted me to participate in brutal MC when the M is over, and when she's never done the work to show me there is any remorse for what she did.

Un-fucking-believable.

Anyway. The whole discussion was more rational and civil than either of us expected.

We ended up realizing that we both need to retain legal council and get this divorce done with. Too much pussyfooting around.

Left me realizing I had once again become too lenient and had sent mixed messages. I had allowed her to have more access to me than I should have. This has been an ongoing theme for me since D-Day. I think we both realized how unhealthy it has been to try to be friends. We've done it for DD's sake, but I think we can be civil but separate and still keep DD feeling whole.

Every time I think I've reached a semi-normal place, there's some sort of new mindfuck to shake things up.

This latest episode has, once again, reinforced the fact that I am doing the best thing for myself by getting away from this nutcase. I just have to keep the barriers up.


Posts: 696 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: New York
Jimi40
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Member # 10909
Default  Posted: 9:48 AM, November 22nd (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jasper, my man, that's just the silly mind, of the silly woman, who just can't believe that you're not falling all over yourself, to get her back. For some reason, which completely eludes me, these women think every man on earth should be killing themselves to get with them. The funniest part is always the look on their faces, when realization sets in, usually in the form of new woman in your life, that they are completely replaceable, and they should have thought about that before they cheated.


You've got nowhere to fall, when your back's to the wall.

Posts: 5524 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: Niagara
jasper
♂ Member
Member # 28168
Default  Posted: 10:38 AM, November 22nd (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I really never thought my wife would be unfaithful. Her mother had gone through life with three husbands who cheated and abandoned her. She always threated to cut my dick off if I ever cheated. And here she is ... the cheater. We were unhappy, things were not working for us, blah blah but how suddenly your morality can change just like that.

DFW, I was blown away by this myself. But I think this has to do with extreme insecurity on the part of the WW. My WW was always jealous, and occasionally suspicious of the most innocent things. She would have dreams that I cheated on her and wake up angry with me. I never dreamed of cheating on her, though.

And I never dreamed she'd cheat on me. She never articulated this, but I definitely got a vibe, after D-day of "well, it was inevitable that you'd do it to me, I just beat you to it."

It's all insecurity, and we have to pay for it. And continue to get blamed for it. From my standpoint, the issue is so much larger than just the affair, that there's no getting over it.


Posts: 696 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: New York
Mr. Kite
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Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 10:54 AM, November 22nd (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It's all insecurity, and we have to pay for it. And continue to get blamed for it. From my standpoint, the issue is so much larger than just the affair, that there's no getting over it.

Good point. I recently asked my pastor, who has counseled WW in the past, just what in the hell is wrong with her. He replied, "Incredibly low self-esteem." Out of that comes insecurity which leads to her jumping at the first idiot who pays attention to her or gives her a compliment.

The thing is that she was a knockout when she was younger and still is good looking at an older age--something I've told her bazillions of times. Whenever she lamented on how stupid she is, I would tell her "no way." So she cannot receive affirmation from me but must hear it from someone else. This means I can't help her get over her insecurity and low self-esteem. Check-mate!


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
Jimi40
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Member # 10909
Default  Posted: 11:03 AM, November 22nd (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So she cannot receive affirmation from me but must hear it from someone else. This means I can't help her get over her insecurity and low self-esteem. Check-mate!

I hear that! My wife has a killer ass, and I always told her how hot she was. Apparently I get pffffft, and some other guy gets laid.


You've got nowhere to fall, when your back's to the wall.

Posts: 5524 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: Niagara
HurtingandLost
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Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 11:17 AM, November 22nd (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm with you fellas -

My WW has extremely low self esteem; but the mind fucking part of all of it is that I'm somehow to blame for it all.

I've always complemented her, I tell her how beautiful she is, how smart , etc....I made a point to do this everyday pre-A.

But if you ask her I've NEVER said any of these things, and I'm the anti-christ.

Ties into bigger issues, and the A is merely a symtom of the bigger problems. There is a five year difference between my wife and I; and whereas I was exposed to life very early on and have been on my own since I was 17, she was rather sheltered from the world until she turned 19, and even then her parents continued to shelter her.

So, on various daily issues that are called life, she will begin to make a dumb decision. I will talk to her and explain why its a dumb decision, based on my EXPERIENCE OF MAKING SIMILAR STUPID CHOICES EARLY ON, and she will ignore me, tell me I'm wrong, and go ahead and make the stupid choice. Then, after the fact, she will lament how dumb it was, AND WHY DIDNT I SAY ANYTHING? If anyone else intervenes though, whether its her father or a co-worker, or even a fucking hobo on the street, then WOW, they're so smart! They gave her the best advice ever!

This woman has SERIOUS FUCKING ISSUES.


holding out hope
UPDATE: Hope's Dead

Posts: 430 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: CO
jasper
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Member # 28168
Default  Posted: 11:27 AM, November 22nd (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think this is fairly common, and I don't really understand it. Similar to what you guys are saying, my WW is hot. Too hot for me. I always felt fortunate to have such a beautiful wife. And, while I did take her more for granted later in our relationship, I'm pretty sure I always let her know, in every way, how amazed and lucky I was to have her.

She just never saw it. And I don't know what I could have done differently.

One thing she said yesterday was that she had noticed me checking her out more in recent months, since we split. And she admitted she wasn't sure whether I had started doing it more after the split, or whether she just didn't pick up on it prior to the split. Had gotten used to it or something.

But just knowing that her mind works that way, and what it led her to do, I know I can never trust her. Insecure people do stupid, irrational, cowardly, selfish shit. It was my problem for 11+ years. No longer.


Posts: 696 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: New York
Razor
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Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 11:31 AM, November 22nd (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The whole *self esteem* thing seems a croc to me. Just another in the long line of pig shit excuses.

WW was allways catching the eye of men every where she went. Allways successful in her chosen career path. Not overly intellectual beyond what was needed for her career. More of a *cartoon network* person than some one interested in the science or history channel. But competent in her field and often complemented and rewarded.

Yet she claim she had self esteem issues.

The thing is. WE can complement them until the end of the earth. But because we are their HUSBANDS our complements count LESS. WW say many times when I say *she look good* that I had to say that because I was M to her. So. If complements from us count LESS then complements from OM count MORE.

I think the more interesting question is WHY they needed these complements in the first place? I dont think this was due to any lack of esteem with them self. But instead they would get these complements and they felt good. And in time they became addicted to these complements.

Like smoking a cigarette. There is nothing in you that needs to smoke one UNTIL you start smoking them and get addicted to them.

IMO cheating happens more because of poor impulse control than any thing else. More than any FOO or esteem issues. WW was simple tempted by attention from a stranger - attention that counted MORE than attention from me. And she laced impulse control. So she acted on that impulse and cheated. Then became addicted to the cheating and it turn into a LTA.

Razor


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3088 | Registered: Sep 2007
Mighty
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Member # 26909
Default  Posted: 11:58 AM, November 22nd (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

A trick I’ve learned HurtingandLost.... Women don’t value the common. So if you often remind her that she’s smart, witty, beautiful, that you love them, and say those things when they want to hear them... it is white noise in their head. I found I would say those things when it was expected. Think about it... If you are like me, I used to say compliments or say words under two scenarios: The parrot, or as a reaction trying to elicit something from her. Example; She says “I love you.” and you will most likely parrot it back whether you strongly feel that or not at the moment. Or she makes a mistake and berates herself for being so stupid... and you probably re-assure her she’s not stupid regardless of how dumb she acted or whether you warned her or not just to comfort her. In both scenarios, you are only following instead of leading.

Break that habit of putting her needs in front of your own feelings and thoughts. So don’t deny them those compliments or how you feel, but instead only use them when you strongly feel that way... Don’t use them expecting to get anything out of them or to comfort them. The new rule for me is saying what I feel when I feel it; it is not to say things to comfort her and make her feel better or because the response is expected and it’s what you know they want to hear.. The words still come out, just not when she expects them, therefore they are now valued and reinforce when her actions do something to make me feel... Because I’m being true, she can start mapping and understanding you. Think of it this way; How many of us had our wives tell us over and over again while they were in an affair that they love us or heard compliment after compliment only to find out later she thought the opposite? Wouldn’t you have been able to understand your situation if she had just said what she felt? So learn from it... Say what you feel when you feel it and maybe she’ll start getting the real picture.


BS (me) 44 WS (her)43
Married 17yrs, Together 20 yrs
Three children (9-13)
D-Day #1 - 4/11/09 (me).. DD's stopped, she quit talking. Body count: 6 OM, 1 OW. (2 EA's, 1 LTPA, 1 PA, 3 "kisses").

Posts: 629 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Denver
Mr. Kite
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Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 12:21 PM, November 22nd (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If anyone else intervenes though, whether its her father or a co-worker, or even a fucking hobo on the street, then WOW, they're so smart! They gave her the best advice ever!

Someone on one of these BM threads once posted that he can tell his WW something and she ignores him. But her counselor can say the exact same thing to her and suddenly it's the wisdom of Solomon.

There's a scripture in the Bible that says a prophet is not respected in his own home. Why? Over-familiarity. They see us sitting around the house scratching, burping, and farting so we become disgusting to them. Never mind that the above mentioned counselor is probably doing the same thing in his/her house. It's called being human. We must be super-human or else.

Similar to what you guys are saying, my WW is hot. Too hot for me. I always felt fortunate to have such a beautiful wife.

Which reminds me of that old song, "If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life, get yourself married to an ugly wife." Perhaps there's some truth to that.

I've had a lady friend for thirty years, before I met WW, that always wanted to hook up with me. Her attentiveness and affection for me did wonders for my ego. Unfortunately she's unattractive and overweight. Always was and still is. Along came WW and I was gone. I still wonder if my inability to see past the outside of a woman came back to bite me in the butt. Damn superficiality!


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
HurtingandLost
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Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 12:21 PM, November 22nd (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I hear you MIGHTY. The funny thing is though, that Pre-A, I felt like a lucky guy for the most part, despite her crap, and went out of my way to tell her I loved her becuase thats how I felt. I would wrap her up in a hug as she walked by, because thats how I felt.

Fast forward, and now, instead of me initiating any compliments ( I still do from time to time, just not nearly as often as before), SHE initiates it. I dont "jump" out of my way anymore to play to her needs.

But, unlike before, I also have cut out obligatory "husbandly compliments". If she asks me how she looks, I give her an honest opinion. If she doesnt look right in an outfit, I tell her!

Example: about three weeks ago she came out of the bathroom with too much makeup in a short dress with nylons and knee high stiletto heeled boots. She NEVER dresses like that. She asked me how she looked. I told her she looked like she was trolling for dick.

Now she gets the whole, unvarnished truth. Probably isnt helping the sitch any but I feel better being me! No more holding back for her sake.


holding out hope
UPDATE: Hope's Dead

Posts: 430 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: CO
HurtingandLost
♂ Member
Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 12:26 PM, November 22nd (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@ Kite
Similar to what you guys are saying, my WW is hot. Too hot for me. I always felt fortunate to have such a beautiful wife.
Which reminds me of that old song, "If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life, get yourself married to an ugly wife." Perhaps there's some truth to that.

NOT TRUE. My ex-wife is a fat butt ugly troll. That M was miserable too! I used to drink back then and I remember sobering up one morning, looked over at her laying next to me in bed, and I got up and started drinking again in hopes she's start looking better! I could almost tolerate her attitude when I was drunk too.

I drank when I was overseas and we were dating. Then didnt drink for a couple of years after I came back stateside. Then I realized what a lying, cheating manipulator she was and began "medicating"...to include drinking, rock climbing (without ropes / harnesses), and racing motorcycles at 160+ mph. Looking for any way out of that M.

[This message edited by HurtingandLost at 12:42 PM, November 22nd (Monday)]


holding out hope
UPDATE: Hope's Dead

Posts: 430 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: CO
DFWMovieGeek
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Member # 28854
Default  Posted: 3:52 PM, November 22nd (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Agree with Mighty and Razor,
always felt like any actions or compliments from me were ignored or devalued even thought they were genuine.

I think my wife is just right for me, not super hot, and ugly either. Her new pack of friends built up her self esteem/attractiveness. Nothing I could say or do would have done anything, she just was looking for validation from others. And, it seems if you are woman, you decently attractive you will draw attention. Most guys will do anything for pussy. This guy knew my wife was married, and she had a car seat in her car. What the hell are you, homewrecker? Know what I mean.


Me BH-42
Her WS-38
Married for 7 years
Together for 11 years
1 daughter, 4 yrs old
D-Day #1 06/19/10 (Guy 1)
D-Day #2 01/24/11 (Guy 2)

Posts: 55 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: TX
zombieman
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Member # 28996
Default  Posted: 4:56 PM, November 22nd (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My wife has got hotter over the last couple of years, after she had a kid, she started wearing nicer clothes and so on. Interesting comment from her last night about woman post childbirth and the first year. They lose their identity. and I think this is the case with my W, she lost her old identity, she was now a mother not an independent unit. I think this has something to do with her A. She would never admit it as she loves the kid to death and Im not taking at as blame shifting. But there is something in it, some part of her potentially didn't want to be a mother with a mortgage and the same old day to day grind. POS came along and stroked her ego and the rest is history. I sat there putting our son to bed every night hoping she would come home soon in a happy mood (but im the neglectful one). I just don't know if I will ever see her again in the same light, particularly as a woman who will put her child in front of anything eg her own selfish needs. The A was at a point where she was farming the kid of to my parents (while I was at work) so she could run home and talk to OM on instant messaging, this was her slip up, she brought it into our home and computer when I work with computers all day, not a smart move. It all really makes me want to puke some days.

I'm early days into my attempt at the 180 again and I can already see the cogs turning in her head, She asked me if I am angry with her and what is wrong this morning…. um well can you take a guess? You don't want to talk about our marriage? yeah well never do I. See ya when your ready to take some responsibility and win my heart back. It's in your court now. I've tried everything else, lets see if this works. If it doesn't I'll be hitting the road within the next 6 months.


Posts: 88 | Registered: Jul 2010
Mighty
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Member # 26909
Default  Posted: 6:04 PM, November 22nd (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm early days into my attempt at the 180 again and I can already see the cogs turning in her head, She asked me if I am angry with her and what is wrong this morning…. um well can you take a guess? You don't want to talk about our marriage? yeah well never do I. See ya when your ready to take some responsibility and win my heart back. It's in your court now. I've tried everything else, lets see if this works. If it doesn't I'll be hitting the road within the next 6 months

I could have written that zombieman... It’s a regular show at my house. “You seem upset, what’s wrong?”.. “um... the normal”... followed by sounds of her quickly leaving the room and finding somewhere or something else to do and avoiding me.

The new trick: She whores (doubt she’d use those words though) to change my mood when time fails. I hate that I fall for the sex card each and every time. But, it works. It’s just so hard to stay mad at a attractive naked woman trying to seduce you.... It’s a manipulation though; What I’m trying to fathom is whether it might be her way of saying “I’m sorry I screwed you up” on some level. Sex went from <10 per year for a decade to almost daily now. So something is going on there at a deeper level.... I’m embracing that change, but questioning the motives...


BS (me) 44 WS (her)43
Married 17yrs, Together 20 yrs
Three children (9-13)
D-Day #1 - 4/11/09 (me).. DD's stopped, she quit talking. Body count: 6 OM, 1 OW. (2 EA's, 1 LTPA, 1 PA, 3 "kisses").

Posts: 629 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Denver
zombieman
♂ Member
Member # 28996
Default  Posted: 7:24 PM, November 22nd (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think the problem I have with the 180 is she interprets it as me not giving a shit about her. She told me today, your not that into me are you? Well im still here 6 months after your A. Your just here for the kid... Commence banging head at wall.

She cant own up to the damage she has done - the comments on the A being a revenge thing and that enables the post A justification is so accurate. As I mentioned in the previous betrayed men thread, I really think she cant compute in her own mind that she is the one that has destroyed the marriage, I didnt paint that wall, i didnt go to the dinner with friends because I was tired and so on... I destroyed it. She is either internalising all the guilt and remorse she feels (possible, it is a family trait) or it simply isnt there because to her I drove her to it. She asks me 'what about my feelings' 'What about me' Such a fucked up situation. I just want honesty from her.

She has openly said to me, I want to forget this ever happened and we just get back to having a normal life. How would she feel if I cheated on her tomorrow and I said the same thing. I will give you a hint, she wouldn't be happy. So where does that leave me? I accept this is her, she has done this, take the small offerings of remorse I see and accept this is my marriage or give her more time and if it doesn't happen walk. I know the day will come where I wake up and know that answer definitively. It's not today, its probably not tomorrow but it will come.

[This message edited by zombieman at 7:41 PM, November 22nd (Monday)]


Posts: 88 | Registered: Jul 2010
Mr. Kite
♂ Member
Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 8:36 PM, November 22nd (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This guy really got screwed...

£56m lottery winner ordered to pay £2m to ex-wife even though she left him for another man TEN YEARS ago

A lottery winner has been left appalled after the wife who left him for another man ten years ago was able to grab £2million of his winnings.

Nigel Page, who won the £56million Euromillions jackpot earlier this year, is said to have been planning a generous gift to his former wife.

But this wasn’t enough for Wendy Page, 43, who decided to take legal action against him for more.

Sources close to the winner’s family say she had wanted £8million, but settled for a quarter of that in an out-of-court deal. She was due to receive the money into her bank account yesterday.

Mr Page – said to have been shocked by the legal threat – offered to put the £2million in a trust fund for their 13-year-old daughter. This was vetoed.

He and his partner Justine Laycock, 42, celebrated by getting married shortly after the win.

But Mrs Page, a human resources director at an investment firm, went to see lawyers after it emerged her ex-husband planned to give money to other relatives.

Their 11-year marriage collapsed in 2000 and she now lives in a waterside home in the Cotswolds. She is also believed to have secured a large increase in maintenance payments for their daughter – from £150 a month to £2,000 – and was seen just before her monster pay day with another man and a bottle of champagne.

Mr Page is thought to be the first lottery-winning husband in the UK to be successfully sued for a slice of his winnings.

Yesterday a source close to him said: ‘Nigel feels very hurt. The last seven months have been horrendous for him.

‘Up to this point everyone got on pretty well. But what Wendy has done has ruined everything.

‘Nigel has always provided for their daughter. Even when he was out of work he made sure she was all right. And right from the start Wendy was going to get a big gift.’

Mr Page is thought to have agreed to the settlement rather than face the prospect of a larger payout to his ex-wife in court.

A relative yesterday confirmed that the couple failed to include a legally-binding ‘clean break’ clause at the time of their divorce.

The out-of-court settlement is understood to include a gagging order preventing either party from talking about it. Nigel Page and his wife are said to have split after Mr Page found a text message on his wife’s phone from one of her colleagues.

Mrs Page left the family home, taking the couple’s then three-year-old child with her. The friend said: ‘They have tried to keep things amicable over the years for the sake of the child. But this legal battle has taken its toll.

‘Wendy’s relationship with the man she left Nigel for lasted two years.’

Another friend added of Mr Page’s first marriage: ‘Nigel didn’t want it to end. He was heartbroken for years until he met Justine. But he still provided for his daughter, taking her on holidays and being as good a dad as possible.

‘Nigel was prepared to give Wendy £1million. She didn’t think it was enough. It’s put a real dampener on everything at a time when he and Justine should be enjoying life.’

Last night, Nigel Page’s father, who lives in Cirencester, described his son’s reaction to handing over the large sum of money to his former wife.

Brian Page said: ‘He’s unhappy about what has happened. Our priority at the moment is our granddaughter.’

Wendy Page, who works for St James’s Place Wealth Management in Cirencester, refused to discuss the settlement.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1331925/Lottery-winner-Nigel-Page-pay-ex-wife-2m-left-10-years-ago.html


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
jasper
♂ Member
Member # 28168
Default  Posted: 8:40 PM, November 22nd (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just reading that article is giving me hives.

Posts: 696 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: New York
HurtingandLost
♂ Member
Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 11:14 PM, November 22nd (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

reading that article makes me glad I'm broke! Can't sqeeze blood from a rock...


holding out hope
UPDATE: Hope's Dead

Posts: 430 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: CO
palerider
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Member # 22496
Default  Posted: 12:51 AM, November 23rd (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What a classic, entitled, hypergamous bitch. I hope this guy got a prenup with the new wife, but I bet he didn't.

Posts: 579 | Registered: Jan 2009 | From: Texas
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