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User Topic: Long Term Affair Part 20
Laura28
♀ Member
Member # 28997
Default  Posted: 9:37 PM, September 14th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi miracle

You amaze me with your insight - your question is spot on and one I've asked myself many times. I love him. BUT Do I like him?

Sometimes I'm not sure. He is VERY charming (when he wants to be) and can be very nasty.

He can make me feel important, loved and he makes me laugh often. He is the father of my children who in spite of this still love him.

Prior to Dday I was really miserable because I didn't like who he was - he was distant and uncommunicative. Sometimes downright mean.

When faced with the prospect of losing everything he did a complete turn around.

Attentive, talkative (about everything but the affairs) buys me gifts, takes me out. Seems to really care.

I don't know!

I think deep down I'm just waiting. I think it will take me some months at least before I'm even 90% sure one way or another. Who is he really? This man who cheated on me for at least 16 yrs?? Who came home to me and the children (8 and 4 when he started I think)and conned us all.

No. I don't know if I like him. I love who I think he CAN be but it will be a long time before I can decide if he's worth staying with.

So at present I'm just along for the ride. As I think UKgirl said once I like him well enough and it suits me to stay.

My days are very up and down still but I think I'm getting a little better.

I think I'm better off with him than without him at present. I'll see what happens. I do know that if he steps out of line ONCE we're done. I've given him this chance but I won't be treated like garbage again!!!


Married 30yrs Me BW 57Yrs Him FWH 59yrs
OWzero 1988 EA?/PA? Gaslighted.
Dday May 28 2010.
OW1 1994(6mths PA, EA til dday).
OW2 2002(8yrs PA).
OW3 2009(1Yr PA).
Others???? Status: Not Divorcing..but.."You can't unfuck the goat"

Posts: 2729 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Australia
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 10:33 PM, September 14th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

m3: you are right about that blind determination....until recently anyways....i am learning to step back and let it be, i am learning to let the chips fall where they may concerning pfm and the kids...

and i have to tell you this is soooo hard....i will still offer my 2 cents, and then thats it, i am backing off and letting pfm dictate what he does...

i am also doing this with manchild for school...

sink or swim time for the miracle family...

i actually had this convo with my ic last week, and she actually took a step back that i am letting go....

its so hard, i won't lie, the only control i have ever maintained in this relationship is with my kids, did damage control up the wahzoo...no more...i cannot do it anymore and this i know, the hard part is of course the action, but i have been stepping back and i have to say i am proud of myself on this one...

my only problem now is that i don't know what to do with this tongue of mine....all i do it bite it.. ...and i hope eye-rolling doesn't do any permanent damage.. ...my eyes are bad enough with this age crap...


so m3: what about you....your ws is obviously not doing what he needs to do, how long will you hold out? or on??? or will you settle for the status quo, quietly lining up those ducks....??


laura: i hope you find that you end up liking him, and i understand so well about not liking before hand...pfm the last year prior to d-day became monstrous...he is still as my dd puts it...sucking up....although some of the stuff he was doing is getting slightly less...i am noticing some small changes, i wonder all the time how long he will keep this charade up....it feels like a charade...

it kind of feels like someone doing whatever it takes to get out of the doghouse, not necessarily in the home, but in the regular house so to speak....it that makes any sense.....

and as long as you know you can take all the time you need in making any permament decisions...weigh all your options and find the path of least regret in the end...it is not always a clear path, but there is always one...and like ats pointed out earlier sometimes the path of least regret is not necessarily one that would provide happiness, just the least of the evils....

but eventually we can as m3 says choose happiness and choose not to have any more evil within our lives....not easy when you will always be connected by kids, but its possible...at least to detach if and when that time comes about....or i should say if and when you choose to end the marriage...

and as both ukgirl and fnf have both pointed out, it is more then a marriage for most if not all of us, its an entire life"style" and all that goes with it...especially family functions with your kids...much easier when the parents are not divided for the kids to divide their time between them and the rest of their lives...kwim

o.k. i think i will shut up now....


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 10:35 PM, September 14th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Laura: Funny thing, WH was attentive, etc while in the A. After DDay, he seemed remorseful for a time, but now he's acting worse and worse.

WH can act all sweet and nice, except if backed to the wall about the A.

Trying to survive 2 more weeks, but have to do more for myself than just survive. I have to live.


Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jan 2010
alexa071
♂ Member
Member # 28881
Default  Posted: 1:03 AM, September 15th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

njgal,

it's the same story for everyone....

Wow, it really is the same story isn't it?

Something that I have been acutely aware of recently is WW's complete disregard for consequences. This seems to be across the board, not just A related.

During her A she didn't consider that she might get pregnant with OM's child. WW never considered divorce as a consequence... of course not... no one will ever know!

Anyways, even now there is a complete disregard of any consequences for action or inaction. WW knows what is expected of her and yet EVEN NOW, with everything out in the open and D being a HUGE possibility, she still chooses to do the absolute minimum to keep me in the M.

It is as if she actively chooses to ignore the looming consequences. She knows they are there and a reall possibility. Instead of acting she allows things to just happen. She seems rather accepting of just sitting and waiting to see if either:

A) Enough time will pass that I will get over what she did and everything will be like it was before

or,

B) I will divorce her

She has essentially decided that, even though she has the ability to ACT and influence the outcome, she will just sit on her hands and see how it turns out.

I'm just amazed at the laziness and selfishness this takes. The flip side is that maybe she doesn't really care how it turns out. Maybe deep down she wants the D.


Me: BH (32)
Her: XWW/SA/Borderline PD (Betrayer47) (32)
OC: (4)

Posts: 1042 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: MN
nofun
♀ Member
Member # 24546
Default  Posted: 7:26 AM, September 15th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I decided to take the day off from work yesterday to visit with classmates I hadn't seen in over 35 years. H gave me a hard time, was sarcastic, blah blah blah. He always does this to me when I want to venture out on my own. It tends to ruin my day. Why can't he say, "hope you have a nice time, see you when you get home." We had a few cutting words before I left. I then decided I would leave a note and instead of the usual nasty note, I left a loving note.

When I got home there were flowers on the table with a card and a hand written note telling me how appreciative he was of me and how he loved me. My mother was right...kill em with kindness!!

Today is a better day!


BS (me) 56
WH 61
M 36 yrs
OW - 55 - Howdy Doody Look Alike
3 Awesome Adult C
DD 6/7/09
LTA 12 years.
Confused: D or R???

Posts: 987 | Registered: Jun 2009
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 7:55 AM, September 15th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

fun: wow,i am so so impressed, tryn will be so proud of you ...and yes the kindness thing is awesome, so yay for you....and actually doubly yay for mr fun...


alex:

if she actively chooses to ignore the looming consequences.

i don't think the ws actively ignores as much as hides in fear....

fear guides the ws, fear of showing us who they really are....its like the kids who get caught doing wrong, none of them admit to wrong doing its always the "not me" or "i dont know who broke it" scenarios....and to top that off, many parents will never recognize and reward truth telling, when a child tells the truth about something they did wrong, they still get punished,...and sometimes that is the lesson learned and ingrained....lie and possibly get away with it or tell the truth and be punished.....

not to say that bad behavior should n't be punished, but for honesty maybe a reduced sentence is what needs to be taught....

anyways most of us were taught the way of tell the truth and be punished....no one wants to be punished...

and the other part is the truly ironic part....the ws does not trust us with their truth....if we see who they really are we will reject them and that is the ulitmate rejection....its one thing to reject someone based on lies, that person now has the ability to blame the lies as opposed to taking full responsiblity....it still hurts them and they still cry that "they" fucked up, but to open up all their worst truths and be rejected for who they really are hurts the soul...

when fear guides you it is never a good thing, when love guides you it is always good, even if you get rejected it means one is living their own truth....

and when we are hurt, scared and in pain we usually are guided by fear....me included....

the good news is that if you can recognize this, acknowlegdment is the first step to change....

and yes so much easier said then done, i struggle with this daily....i still want to lash out, scream, hit him and i still wish him dead....definitely not conducive thoughts to be guided by love.. .....


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 8:40 AM, September 15th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Alex,

It's sad isn't it to see how similar it all is.
It's good to know you're not all alone though. We're hard to find -- but we're out there. It's extremely unusual for an A to last more than 2 years. Most are over within 6 months, but 2 years is 2 standard deviations out from the bell curve. . . so beyond that is just crazy.

And I think that is a very important thing to remember. Our WS's are unwell in a way. And their personal battles don't have a lot to do with us. In fact, we are their safety nets -- their safe harbors. It's a little parental and not terribly sexy.

Ok. I really, really need everyone's help here. Especially the men. I need to explore all the reasons I don't want to give WH this list. I need to pick them apart and get 2X4's, etc. I hope many of you will take the time to help me. I'm going to ramble on here. So sorry -- but I'd rather just get it out and forget about organizing it.

so m3: what about you....your ws is obviously not doing what he needs to do, how long will you hold out? or on??? or will you settle for the status quo, quietly lining up those ducks....??

Let's start here. My WS is obviously not doing what he needs to do. EVERYONE agrees on this. It's not my imagination. My parents, my IC, you guys, etc. The observation is unilateral and it's not my imagination.

So, the corollary -- my WS honestly thinks he's busting his ass to save this marriage.

That is quite a chasm to bridge.

I certainly don't want to discount his efforts. They are much appreciated. They have had some positive effect. Unfortunately, they only build the "he can take care of the kids when it's his turn and he'll pay the child support without me garnishing his wages" kind of trust.

And, yes, I've ID'ed and written here about trust and what it will take to regain my trust. it's concrete. I've refined that list endlessly making it as concise as possible. So, I know how he can do it if he's willing to execute the list.

I need a kind and gentle way to convey that to him. I love him very much. I do appreciate the efforts he has made. It hurts me to tell him they are not enough. I am afraid that he will find my list to daunting and give up. I am afraid my list will anger him and that anger will be the final straw that pushes me to D.

ATS -- I want to address to you in particular, though please, anyone and everyone weigh in, the question of friendship. I'm asking you because you've written a lot about friendship and about how your WW does not consider the two of you to be friends.

I also do not consider my WH to be a friend. He tells me over and over that I'm his best friend. I've told him I'm not -- his BFF from college (guy) is his best friend. I'm his wife.

You see, WH and I were casually acquainted through work before we dated. He would come into my office at the end of the day a few days a week to chat with my office mate. Sometimes I would chat too. We never had lunch, talked about anything too personal, etc. There was no EA during my 1stM. After XH and I separated, there was only a three month break between then and when WH and I became an item. I dated other people as well -- to me that doesn't form a friendship. Essentially, our entire close personal relationship has been romantic. So, therefore, he's not my friend.

See, XH and I really were "just friends" for a few years before we started dating -- so to me we were friends as well when M.

Anyway, there is a part of me that feels like WH thinks that if the M doesn't work out we'll be friends still. That is just not true. We're either all or nothing. Thanks to the magic of e-mail, texts and nannies -- I may be able to go months at a time without seeing or speaking with WH if we D -- and that is EXACTLY what I would endeavor to do.

Any thoughts on that?

As for how long will I hold out or on? I don't know. For me, when I D'ed, it was like a bell ringing. The realization that the relationship wasn't working well was there for some time -- but the decision was just some turn of phrase that changed everything in an instant and there was no going back.

And I'm just not ready to D yet. And I wonder, would I be if that bell rings again? Or would I be subjecting myself to months of misery?

Then again, if I don't give him the list, I'm subjecting myself to months of misery anyway.

There is certainly fear. Not doing something out of mere fear is lame.

There is a sense of futility. How can he even still have this woman on his FB? That's just insane.

He has shown some changes since his last IC apt. He's kind. No more temper tantrums. He's telling me he loves me more, is more affectionate, tells me I'm sexy all the time, he said he would die for me, he want's to make more plans for the future... but there she is on the FB page. So I know these are just words. Probably a script. It's still nice though. Finally, a respite.

I don't want to rock the life raft if he's really climbing on...but then again he's not rowing...and he's heavy...and there are sharks...

So sorry about the rambling. I'm sort of stream of consciousness making this up as I go along.

I really think one more fight about XHSGF might ring that bell.

I also have a deep need to be gentle here. He withdraws in the face of female anger. If I'm not gentle, he won't hear me. How do you attack someone without them feeling attacked?

As for telling OW's BH, I have come to the conclusion it must be done. The bottom line two reasons are (1) It obviously will continue to haunt me until it's done, and anything that haunts me about this prevents me from fully healing and (2) it is the only real action I can take to make sure the A is over -- and especially since he said sometimes he didn't see her for 2 or 3 years at a time, I need to do everything I could have -- I need to look my kids in the eye and say I did everything I could have.

I'm afraid he'll leave over this too.

I'm not ready to D. I still want my marriage. It's barely limping along, but I fear completely destroying it by asking for what I need to save it. Ugh.

I remember WAL made a post recently saying that for a long time, he wanted out, but also eagerly waited to come home to his wife every night.

I am always eager and excited to see him. I actually don't want out. But then again, I know it will be psychological suicide to stay if he won't complete this list.

I guess I'm answering some of my own questions here, but I'd still love input.

Also, please define cheating and NC. I think he should have a list of these in writing.

Thanks everyone. I'm pretty shook up this morning. I only managed to sleep about 3 hours last night.


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 9:07 AM, September 15th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What do you think of this? Tell him, you asked, so this is what you need to do. Give him the list, in writing as well as the definitions of NC and cheating in writing as well.

That's pretty neutral. If he asks for an explanation, I'll offer the following explanations:

(1) NC with any former romantic interest or sexual partner.
Explanation: you've been inappropriately involved in some capacity with at least 2 people from your past during our M. Therefore, I cannot be comfortable in our relationship if you have any women from your past other than those who have truly, 100%, only been "just friends" in your life in any way because you have proven that your boundaries with women you've had romantic and sexual relationships with are very fuzzy.
(2) You must see your IC biweekly for 6 months, followed by us attending MC biweekly for 6 months.
Explanation: I see you getting real benefit from IC. I want to go to MC after you've had some intensive time with IC because I want the M to be good for both of us, the best possible.
(3) You must answer a few specific questions I want to ask you honestly and as completely as possible.
Explanation: These are things I need to know about you in order to feel comfortable in our relationship.
(4) You must make steady progress towards getting yourself into absolutely fantastic physical shape. I would expect you could be in great shape within 3 years.
Explanation: I have multiple reasons for this, but the bottom line reason is by having an A you took some portion of your available energy to plan romantic liasons and to sustain and nurture a close personal relationship from me and converted it to another. I need you to show me that I am also worth that kind of effort to you. As a practical matter, it's pretty much impossible to have an A with your spouse, so mimicing the kind of behavior that sustains an A won't be that exciting. However, getting into great shape shows some amount of self control, shows consistent effort to do something merely to please me, and I would also find it to be very sexually exciting.
(5) Transparency. I no longer want access to all your stuff - but I do expect to be told immediately of any NC violations by another party. This would include some old girlfriend I've never even heard of contacting you in any way.

I'm thinking give the list and definitions without the explanations but offer the explanations if asked. That's pretty darn neutral.

I'm also going to tell him, with the Transparency, that he's never going to ruin my day if he needs to do something to keep that -- I think about the A 20-40 times a day. It's always pretty much the only thing on my mind so mentioning something isn't going to bug me.

I also think I should tell him that I don't think he's sorry. I see regret for getting caught, not remorse.

And, I'll call OW's BH with WH in the room. I'm going to keep what I'll tell him simple. When I discovered the A, when it was confirmed, the essential timeline, and give him the address of the picture and her confession.

At least, that's what I could do.

ETA -- I guess I shouldn't tell him I don't think he's sorry. That's incendiary. Perhaps it would be better to say, if there are times you feel sorry, please say so. It would be helpful. I can put that with transparency so it's by the statement of how much time I spend thinking about this.

[This message edited by m334455 at 9:14 AM, September 15th (Wednesday)]


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 9:09 AM, September 15th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((((m3)))))

the list need not be something that atonates anger, it could just simply be a list like a grocery list which is what i would recommend...no wishy washy stuff, no anger, no love...a simple to do list....

however m3, once you give him this list you need to make clear what the consequences will be, and if you are not ready to d, then do not make that the consequence, you could merely state that not fulfilling the list will hinder "r" and might lead to "d"...so you do not have to "d" if you are not ready....

telling the the ow bh, do it asap....

as for the friendship thing...i think this answer needs to be twofold:

first: he already considers you a friend, and what constitutes freindship to one may not to another....but it is clear that he wants this, whether or not he is a "good" friend to you to another matter, we have all had friends i am sure that we wondered what were we thinking maintaining those friendships....


and on the basis of being friend while in the marriage...it is something to work on for both of you...eventually if you "r" you can give him a new list of what it means to you to be a friend...

second: if you "d"...as much as you could go for a really long time not speaking to him and with him...i would implore you at some point in time to change that, not for you, not for him but for your kids....co-parenting takes communication and hopefully you chould show your children that you can both do what you have to do because you love them...simply put...


m3 i keep sensing that you are taking on this matter of fact attitude yet are filled with so much turmoil...you sound strong and yet so damned vulnerable...kind of like you are teetering between strength of purpose and strength of surviving...but you are amazingly strong and i get the feeling that if one were to have a convo with you irl without knowing your circumstance, one would never know the turmoil in your soul....unless one knows you well, and then its written all over you....

you will find your way, i have faith in you, and i know you will find the way that works for you and for your kids...and i think it may take you a bit, but i think once you find your road, you will reach your destination...a little worse for wear, but reach it you shall...

(((((m3)))))


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 9:20 AM, September 15th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

m3: i think your idea of giving the list without the explanations is right on...

the list:

answering questions and transparency....

you need for him to maintain transparency, do not give that up at all, whether or not you check will be your business...he needs that as well as you do....

he needs it to help keep him in check, he is still a work in progress and needs to know that someone will hold him accountable

you need it to know whether or not he is fulfilling his end...before you ever commit your heart and soul to this man you need to know....

on getting in shape, i would word it as getting healthy and in shape....

when you specify healthy first it sets in a better light for his understanding as to why its necessary

ic and mc: remove the time limit, make it til further notice....you need to see progress to amend this...not all progress at the same rate, and you do not want to give him an out, think of him as having a child mentality on this one, you dont want to hear him ever tell you that you said it need only be for 6 months so therefore it could end after that ..

i would also add a few things to the list....right now for some reason i am drawing a complete blank

at the end of this list you need to add that you reserve the right to add anything along the way that you see fit...after all life throws curveballs all the time and needs sometimes change....and the list is non-negoatiable....


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 9:32 AM, September 15th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Miracle -- thanks.

Yep. Grocery list. Good idea.

As for the friend thing -- that is something we could explore in MC if we go. What is "friendship" in marriage. If we D then you are right, I should be as much of a friend as I can be to him without harming myself for the sake of my kids.

Turmoil. Yep. I've got some.

Consequences. How to word it? Maybe "If you are unwilling to do these things, I do not know if there is another way for you to regain enough of my trust for me to feel safe remaining married to you. That's not a threat, it's just my reality. I know that these specific things combined will absolutely 100% work and will create enough of the kind of trust I need to be confident about and happy in our marriage. I do not want a divorce and I am nowhere near asking for one - I know that healing a damaged marriage requires patience - but if you choose not to do some or all of these things, even perhaps substituting one or more with some different effort, there is a real risk that I will not develop a sufficient level of trust in you to feel safe in our marriage and that I will eventually conclude that you are not going to be able to regain enough of my trust for me to feel comfortable staying married to you.

Edited a bit. I changed the "consequences" statement slightly. I also want to add the following.

List should have no cheating or even close. Duh, but let's put it on. And that should include no more surprises ever.

[This message edited by m334455 at 9:42 AM, September 15th (Wednesday)]


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 9:39 AM, September 15th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

m3 keep it really short and simple



merely state that not fulfilling the list will hinder "r" and might lead to "d"..


the ways it will hinder "r" is simple really, i will not trust you without these things, i will not feel safe without these things...i cannot move forward in our marriage which means i cannot move on from this place.....


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 9:41 AM, September 15th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ok. Keep it simple, stupid. I'll wait for more of you to weigh in. Meanwhile, I'm drafting the list.

[This message edited by m334455 at 9:42 AM, September 15th (Wednesday)]


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 9:44 AM, September 15th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am afraid that he will find my list to daunting and give up. I am afraid my list will anger him and that anger will be the final straw that pushes me to D.

m334455, first ((m34455)) while you are struggling with all of this. If your WS, or anyone, is upset and angry with you for expressing your boundaries and expectations, then you need to decide if the benefit they bring to your life warrants compromising on your needs? You shared your boundary list with us, and I do not recall anyone suggesting that any item is in the least bit unreasonable. We BS and WS sucked at telling our each other what our needs were, and/or in drawing and enforcing boundaries. That did not work so well for most of us. Now you are intending in a very well thought out way to share your needs. If this drives your H off, what alternative is there other than to accept the status quo, make him the driver, and compromise your values and needs?

Friendship...
I am struggling with this response, because it gets to the very core of my issue. I have written and deleted 3 responses at this point.

FWW does not consider me a friend because she does not feel that she can be completely open and honest with me. She fears that if she tells me an intimate thing, I will use it to hurt her. My friendship with her is damaged by the lack of trust as fallout of her A and TT. She apparently is not (never has been) capable of forming an emotionally intimate relationship with another adult due defense precautions arising out of her FOO issues, SAB, and other internal struggles.

So I am left with wondering what our relationship is or may be. She is the mother of my children. I lived 40% of my life married to her. We are not friends nor in love. Similar to you, our relationship was dating for 9 months, engagement, and then married after knowing each other for about 15 months. We met on a blind date after mutual friends introduced us. Unlike the other long-term relationships I had, there was no knowing each other as friends prior to dating.

If we were to D, I believe that we would have a superficial, polite relationship. I think that she would actually be more comfortable with that than I would be, because it would be what she has now. I would have to do some 180-like work initially to detach and heal my loss. She would apparently have no friendship or intimate relationship to grieve.

So I suspect that you are right m334455. You would move on into your life, and while there would always be connections through the children, you and your H's paths would diverge. Frankly, if people can be friends after a D, I have never understood why they needed to D in the first place. If FWW and I D I do not see us being close friends, and I would have to intentionally distance myself emotionally to prevent being wrapped back up into her life trying to help or rescue her.

So I am left with the question of why I would stay in a M with someone I would not likely be friends or have a relationship with if it were not for the M?

-- but the decision was just some turn of phrase that changed everything in an instant and there was no going back.

I understand this feeling. A few weeks ago when it seemed clear FWW was done and wanted to D, I was done; and I revisited with the attorney, set up my separate account, notified friends and family that we were finished it is though my perceptions changed. I see things differently now. I was OK with the idea of D, and I could see myself being OK. Once this perception changed, it has been harder to slip back into the M. We are being cordial and polite, having some fun, but it is different for me. I think FWW believes that we are doing better. I am worried my emotional connection to her and the M is going to dissolve before her's is able to coalesce (if it ever does).

He's kind. No more temper tantrums. He's telling me he loves me more, is more affectionate, tells me I'm sexy all the time, he said he would die for me, he want's to make more plans for the future...

Really m334455, this is kind of a low bar that he is meeting. He is kind and does not throw temper tantrums? He would die for you, but not meet your reasonable boundaries for R?

How do you attack someone without them feeling attacked?

It is not an attack. It is communicating. It is what adults do. You are not telling him he is wrong or bad, you are telling him what you need to be in a relationship with you. If he is unable or unwilling to step up, then you have options. You are not attacking, you are throwing him a lifeline before you both drift so far apart you cannot find each other again.

As for telling OW's BH, I have come to the conclusion it must be done.

Agreed.

I'm afraid he'll leave over this too.

He loves you and will die for you, but would be angry and leave if you told his AP's BS? FWW has committed to telling her sister about involvement with bil after the party in two weeks. If she does not, I will tell my sil. This will either resolve that issue or FWW will leave me, and still the issue will be resolved. Sunshine must be allowed in. I regret not doing it earlier; I thought I had sound reasons. It will be done by my dday anniversary.

...but I fear completely destroying it by asking for what I need to save it.

If you cannot ask for what you need, let alone have those needs met, then the M is already destroyed and gone.

I am always eager and excited to see him.

You are doing better than I am at this point. I find myself looking forward to the times alone with FWW busy or otherwise occupied. I hope this feeling goes away after we get through the events during the next couple of weeks.

Also, please define cheating and NC. I think he should have a list of these in writing.

Cheating: any behavior that is hidden from the other spouse due to its existing or potential sexual aspects and/or emotional connection. Any relationship that acts as a surrogate for an aspect of the M.

NC: just that. Not communicating in any way. No voluntary thoughts about the OP. Not holding on to contact information, not looking up the person on the web, not being FB friends, or friends of FB friends to follow reports on the wall. Treating the NC person just like any other person you neither know nor care to know.

--Ats


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3964 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 9:50 AM, September 15th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ETA -- I guess I shouldn't tell him I don't think he's sorry.

Agreed, you are allowed to tell him how you feel. How is actions or inactiojns impact you. You are not allowed to tell him how or what he feels.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3964 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 10:16 AM, September 15th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks ATS. It's so helpful to see my nonsense picked apart. I went over my list with my IC multiple times. He thought it was going easy on him.

The bar is pretty low right now -- that's the thing, he thinks he's busting his ass, but really he's just behaving how husband's are supposed to behave, and lazy ones at that. He doesn't clean, do laundry, shop, etc. But these things can be fixed in MC if we get that far.

I would be friends with my WH if we were not M -- as in if there had been no romance. After a D, it would be hard. I don't know that I would ever completely fall out of love with him, and that would make a true friendship very painful.

The list
(1) You must not have any contact with any former romantic interest or sexual partner.

"Contact" means ANYTHING. No in person communication. No e-mails. No texts. No IM's. No posting on Facebook, or Classmates. No friending them on Facebook. No looking them up on the web. No asking about them to mutual friends, or talking about them. No contact of the same kind with their spouse, if applicable. No keeping their contact information. Treating them like any other person you neither know nor care to know.

(2) You must not cheat.

"Cheating" is any behavior that is hidden from the other spouse due to its existing or potential sexual aspects and/or emotional connection.
It is not merely physical but also includes any relationship that acts as a surrogate for any aspect of the marriage such as: confiding more to a friend than to your spouse about how your day went;
discussing negative feelings or intimate details about your marriage with a friend but not with your spouse;
Being involved with a friend to an extent that you would not feel comfortable revealing to your spouse the full extent of your involvement with that person;
Having conversations with a friend that you would not feel comfortable with your spouse overhearing;
Physically touching a friend in a flirtatious manner;
Maintaining or developing a friendship with a woman when you feel sexual tension in the friendship.

"Cheating" is also online activity such as dating sites, hookup sites, webcam sex and other interactive porn, porn sites where you chat with others -- anything that has the potential to involve another live person.

(3) You must start seeing IC biweekly until further notice.

(4) You must agree to start seeing a MC with me biweekly 6 months from now.

(5) You must make a consistent effort to get healthy and in shape.

(6) You must be transparent in your communications with others. This not only includes continuing to give me access to all of your forms of communication until further notice, but more importantly you need to inform me immediately if you are contacted by any former romantic/sexual interest in any way (including things such as"one of my exes I've never even mentioned to you tried to friend me on Facebook.")

(7) You must answer the attached list of questions I have for/about you as completely and honestly as possible.

Not fulfilling this list will hinder our progress towards repairing our marriage and might lead to me to conclude the marriage cannot be saved.

-- I'll get the list of specific questions and post it soon.


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 10:26 AM, September 15th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

There are two other issues here. (I still haven't gone downstairs to get the questions.)

First, I'm also going to offer WH transparency and access to all of my stuff, and essentially implement the entire list for myself as well.

Second, I had an EA with a friend of my WH's back in 2004. I'm going to confess it and tell him exactly what happened. This guy is just going to deny it and say I took everything out of context, etc. if my WH even bothered to confront him, but my WH has a right to know that this guy isn't so much of a friend -- and he also has a right to know that he's not the only person in this M who is capable of getting inappropriately involved with someone else, or that has done so.

I don't think I really saw it as an EA at the time -- and once I did realize it was, I shut it down. I was just sliding down that slope . . .


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 10:52 AM, September 15th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

He doesn't clean, do laundry, shop, etc.

Can I get his position if you D? I do >50% of the laundry, nearly all the shopping (despite bicycle commuting to work),nearly all the dishes, and much of the vacuuming, wiping down bathrooms, etc. If the kids help, it is because of me. I think I can manage to be kind and not throw temper tantrums.

You did not have nonsense. You shared a draft of what you are working on, and we are all happy to offer suggestions based on our interpretations.

I would think about confessing what you now see as an EA. Your H may use this to provide smoke and cover for himself. I was (nearly?) involved in a ONS early in the M with a co-worker’s wife. We flirted at a bar many of us (including her H) frequented after work on Fridays. When the time came to “make it official”, I backed out. I told FWW about this soon after dday. Recently, she has been bringing it up more often in a “none of us is perfect” sort of sense. For you to tell him this now, in the midst of the list and questions I worry that he and you will lose focus.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3964 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 12:00 PM, September 15th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ATS - I know what you mean. I don't even know that it would count as anything to him. Probably would just be a red herring. I guess I'm just oversensitive to married people flirting now in retrospect. Ugh.

ETA -- the list of questions isn't important -- well, maybe to me, but we all know I can ask whatever I want so no point sharing those.

[This message edited by m334455 at 12:01 PM, September 15th (Wednesday)]


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 12:59 PM, September 15th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

m3:

Keep it simple, stupid

see my nonsense picked apart

you need to stop talking like this.....you need to realize your worth....you need to realize just how smart you are....and like ats said this is not nonsense....

ok now that we got that straight...


i love all the stuff ats added....


do not, i repeat do not tell him anything about that supposed ea or anything else for that matter....you do not only not have to be transparent but i recommend against it.....later on down the road if you are in full "R" but not until then....he should not know the extent of what you need to do to protect yourself, line up your ducks and gather all info necessary.....there actually is a thread in wayward on this, it might do you good to read it...


m3 your ws is a long way off from being where he needs to be for himself let alone you.....so you give him nothing but time and being in mc with him....and mc only if he agrees to NC....if nc is not respected then mc is a waste of time and money...


and m3 for your list i would add spending....he needs to partner up with you on becomming debt free....


eta: a question for you m3: what does your signature line mean, everytime i read it i sit here baffled..

[This message edited by iwantamiracle at 12:59 PM, September 15th (Wednesday)]


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

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