your stomach is in knots, you are anxious for responses because you know what you want to hear and you also know that it is highly unlikely...and it hurts....
You hit the nail on the head and exactly described what I'm feeling. As I look forward, no matter the path ahead there is more pain ahead of me. I am trying to take care of myself. I have been a runner for 6 years and I'm continuing to do that every other day. I have some very supportive friends and I have been leaning on them heavily. They have been a godsend.
But no one knows what this is like except those of you who have gone through this, like the ones on this forum.
Miracle, your words and advice are very powerful and I will need them as I face off with my WH.
We have never been much for fighting. In the past we have usually agreed on most of the important issues. So, this is uncharted territory for me. My WH is very smart and can usually twist concepts/ideas and my words around. I need to keep my focus and stay strong. Thanks for letting me lean on all of you.
Strongish - your H sounds a little like mine and how I wish I had found SI when I first found out! However, my H was very remorseful (at least on the surface) and he was scared shitless that his life was going to fall apart. But, as njgal says, my fear was him going to MOW if I threw him out, my fear of being unable to cope, my fear of people knowing , humiliation, gossip, the boys, the finances (I'm a SAHW&M), the whole thing. I had seen this crap scenario at close hand and I did NOT want it to happen to me! Keep to your demands and make him face up to and own his shit. (((((strongish)))))
Ok, I'm off for the weekend. Have a good one.
I share your fears. Was talking to my sister this evening, who has always thought I should leave him since Dday and told her that even if things fall apart at least I'll have satisfaction of knowing I stuffed things up for him and OW3. I don;t think she'd take him back after him giving her an STD AND sleeping with OW2 at same time as her!!!!
Had a truly bad afternoon. Its Father's Day here on Sunday and I bought a few gifts today. That was fine.
BUT when I went to buy card I had to leave the shop. It broke my heart reading the verses.
Ended up buying something really boring. Simply says Hope you have a great day.
Went home. Drank too much. Then h rang from work. Couldn't hide my feelings. Ended up sobbing on phone and told him why.
He was very sympathetic and apologetic.
Edited to fix all the Merlot typos!!!
[This message edited by Laura28 at 5:57 AM, September 3rd (Friday)]
You have always been the only one for me...
Our life together just gets better and better each year...
I have yet to find the card that reads: Despite your intimate relationships with 4 OM, I still feel that special something in my heart for you" It is good you were able to share your pain, and that he was able to acknowledge and apologize for it.
strong: i agree with njgal...there is no need to face off, you merely state your needs, your boundaries, your dealbreakers..you state them as they come...no discussion needed..not a word needs to be said..you just lay it all out, he either complies or he doesn't..there is no negotiation...nada, zilch, nothing, a big fat zero....you need to do it calmly, rationally and when he talks back tell him that at this time you do not want any responses from him, just to listen, and if he starts spinning and spitting words out that are unacceptable, walk away..so have an exit plan, a place to go to regroup in private...he will not be used to this if you have never done it before..its like the tactic we use as mommies when our kids are having temper tantrums..let them temper alone and when they can be rational then a conversation could be had, HOWEVER and this is a BIG HOWEVER strong and anyone else who needs to do this...when you lay out your boundaries, your requirements as youwill for reconcilliation...THERE IS NO NEGOTIATION AT ALL...you make your list of rules and thats it....
so when making this list be sure of what you want.... and i highly recommend that IC be at the top of the list with NC...
laura: we have all been there with cards, i do it the easy way, i dont buy any anymore...but then again i am not in reconcilliation...although even when i though reconcilliation might be possible i stopped with the cards...it wasn't worth making myself crazy...i was always the type that couldn't buy a card if i didn't mean what it said....made getting cards for my in laws the most impossible task... ...i love that i dont have to do that anymore...
anyways...we all have bad days....and nights...and i am glad that he handled it the way he did....and it really is ok that you broke down with him...after all he is the cause...and it afforded him an opportunity to see and feel your pain from his perspective of being the catalyst....
we all feel your pain, and it really does suck....and as someone has on their tagline here the only way is through it....we need to feel it to heal it...
I do not know, nor really care, if she is diagnosable. She exhibits behaviors consistent with histrionic or borderline personality disorders. I think these are what they refer to as “tendencies” rather than actual disorders. Still, it makes life much more complicated. Just last night she talked about an especially disturbing behavior, and admitted she had hoped I would notice, feel sorry for her, the fighting would end and everything would be OK. She admits that is “magical” thinking, but there you are.
So what are my boundaries? NC, transparency, accountability, good personal boundaries (i.e.: no more private lunches, drinks, travel with other men). These are all very easy, I can even add weekly counseling until our IC/MC indicates he things we are done. Beyond those, how do I tell her when we fight it has to be with me, not all the issues with her Mother or X? Am I really going to leave if she injures herself again? How do I keep the necessary perspective when there is a disagreement or fight to know if it is a figment of her past, a misperceived concern, or an actual f’ck-up on my part? How do I make her think of me as a friend, tell her that she has to feel love for me?
I still do not fully understand how I fit into her life. She met and married her 1st H in college with the idea she could “fix” him. After him, her OM and the people she dated all were older men. The only younger man she “dated” was an engaged co-worker, more like booty calls than dating. I am 7 years younger than she is. The men she dated tended (all were?) politically conservative, I am a liberal democrat. The OM and the men she dated after her divorce all were or had been married previously and had children, I had not.
Finally, when I do think about the A behavior, and knowing what I know about her now, I cannot believe that they were only recent events.
There are also online support groups for those that are living with a BPD relative. Maybe if you check those out it can help you get an idea as to whether or not this is what you are dealing with..
I think there's a niche business out there for us.... infideity cards...
Yes!!!! Count me in! Count me in for creating the passages & of course Tryn will have to do the graphics... (tho he's going to have to tone it down a bit if we are going to be able to sell these things in Target - no more naked booty in syringes. Lol.)
We can have them for every infidelity occasion! D-day! D-day #2! D-day #__ (fill in the blank)! The antiversary! Regular and special occasions marred by infidelity!
Congratulations on the Birth of Your Daughter!
(version for WW's)
Here's hoping the paternity test shows she's your husbands!
(version for WH's)
Try not to screw her over the way you've screwed over every other important woman in your life!
(For the newbies -- WH and OW always spent St. Patrick's Day together "getting lucky", oh, I mean "having a drink after work" but THIS year, I had our only daughter on St. Patricks Day instead. Induction. Strangely enough, I did not get to choose the date -- and even though she was early and none of the others were, I was already in labor and 4cm dilated when I got here. Nice to meet you, Karma. )
Allgood: This is just an impression. Sometimes we cannot see the forest for the trees. I know I tend to focus on the details sometimes and not see the reality.
I really believe that your WH really loves you and does not know how to "fix it" and is actually afraid. Of what? What he'll find inside himself, of losing you and the kids.
I get the feeling that he might be so afraid of trying his best and searching inside himself AND he might still lose you.
Ats: If your WW is displaying traits of BPD (borderline) or any other personality disorder, she doesn't have to be "full blown" diagnosed. My IC and I feel my mother is BPD or displays many of the traits. MY IC also feels WH is NPD ( I do agree he has MANY traits)
Even if not fully diagnosed, you still have to deal with the behaviors. NJgal gave you some very good advice. You do need to get the book "Walking on Eggshells" by Melodie Beadle (Sp???) It is very very helpful.
Ats, no matter what happens now, I think you are really on the road to healing. I think it's good for you to really KNOW that WW's affairs had to do with HER and her issues, and not YOU.
As you said, you now have to decide how much more of WW's issues you can help her with and how much you can give.
Laura, and strongish, welcome and welcome to all newbies.
Strongish: You could have been writing about my WH. Do you know him?
Thank you for your post. You write very well and when I read it, it was like you were putting into words my feelings that I somehow am having trouble getting out in organized thought.
My WH does the same thing, (as BPD Mom......mmmm there's a pattern!) He can talk circles around me. He can argue illogical ideas in such a logical way, that I get confused. Then he throws in some emotional stuff that sounds like logic, and that's the kicker.
I will take your advice, and just write to him. <sigh>
NJgirl: I needed to read your post the other day. It was excellent and really helped me. You give such wonderful advice.
Miracle: You also give such wonderful heartfelt advice to everyone. You are "our" Miracle!!
Miracle and NJgirl: I just realized that although you were answering a specific post, the fantastic advice helps everyone, and I'm sure there are a lot of "lurkers" who are helped also. Thank you so much!!
eat a bag of dicks...
and i think tryn would rock the graphics...
we went to family therapy last nite...and ended up with an aha moment this am....turns out manchild has issues with "me"...that i am too hard on him, that i expect too much...both pfm and i looked at each other somewhat perplexed as seeing that this is really what pfm did...and as soon as pfm walks in the house usually its manchild yelling that pfm just wants perfection...yada yada..
but i am really thinkin that either manchild is really mad at me because i tried to kick his father out....or that i am safe and pfm is not...he can't be mad at pfm because he doesn't want him to leave...and i am not going anywhere and so he could project it all upon me...
but i really believe he is just mad at me because i tried to kick pfm out, and everything pfm does doesn't seem good enough to me.....and lately things between pfm and i are better and what is not better is deeply hidden from the kids...and manchild for the most part has been somewhat better....manchild has also been to therapy and been heard so that might also be a correlation...
i know manchild hates the expectations i put on him...but thats too bad, when it comes to academics...you bet i have expectations, the nerve of the twit...yes he has to do his homework.. ...16 years old and he thinks i should check his h.w....and better i actually did that a year ago, he still didn't to it...time to sink or swim... the joys of motherhood....
then i read about unicornsearchers daughter and i cry, and i pray, and i appreciate my healthy kids... ....and once again i tell my children about this sad loss telling them that i wouldn't know what to do if i ever lost one of them, how much i love them...
good to see you posting dear heart...how have you been....is he behaving somewhat on this visit...???
Well WH is back. Met him at the airport with the kids. I just said hi and kissed him on the cheek....of course now he says I'm "being mean" to him.
I wanted to throw this out to everyone. WH can get me so confused, just like Strongish described her WH.
We were talking and WH says that when I am "complaining" about my feelings that I push people away. He no longer has the patience for me. I've been doing this all the years we've been together.
WH says that's why my older sons aren't around as much any more, because I push them away with my problems. I push everyone away. That I'll end up like my mother where no one wants to talk to me anymore. (she's BPD and I asked my IC about myself (I am so deathly afraid of being like my mother) and IC said I am definitely NOT...she's known me long enough and I do not even have traits)
It's just that I realized that because of circumstances, all of my "eggs" were in one basket with WH.
If I or anyone talked to him about an issue, (if it didn't involve him and his behavior), he could be so understanding, supportive, and logical and give great advice.
Being with him for 22 years (married for 18), of course I'll believe his opinion. It's hard to break free from that.
I don't even trust my own opinions when it comes to dealing with WH or mom. I question myself.
Is WH really right? Am I trying to be more "intimate" with emotions by sharing mine? Have I been trying to use him as an IC??
I really don't think so. I think I've been sharing my feelings as a way of being closer to WH.
I am very confused. WH says it's not healthy, but I read here and see that it is OK.
I know this has nothing to do with R with WH. It is just me and trying to get a grip on everything.
He says he is himself and I am myself and that is that. That is the way a husband and wife should be. This is true to a certain degree, but what he is describing, is not real intimacy. Just a superficial relationship.
But all these years, WH led me to believe it was more.
WH tells me to stop looking at his actions to decide what I want to do. I need to decide on my own and not what he wants.
I keep feeling that WH wants me to initiate divorce and is pushing me to it.
This should be one for the thread of stupid things WS says:
WS: "You are pushing me away further"
Me: "You have already pushed me away with this behavior and the A"
WS: "Well, if I pushed you away 100 yards, you are pushing 10 more and it will be your fault if you push me away completely!!"
You can't make this stuff up.
I do know that I need reality checks when I deal with Mom and WH. They can make me dizzy.
I appreciate any thoughts or comments, and especially "reality checks"!!!
Honest: you are absolutely right. So, I think I've come to believe that the A is really over & that OW is not on his mind. I believe my H is doing everything HE can, tho I seriously do not understand why it is so difficult to share feelings with your spouse/ic, but I accept it. I believe he loves me, but I will never understand what he did. He HAS lost my respect. It was nothing short of disgusting. I can't really think of anything else to ask of him that would change that. He's treating me well now on a consistent basis. I guess the rest is on me.
And, on a lighter note:
could include a wheel of sorts that you can turn for the amt of d-days or the amt of op's
OMG -that's great! I could spend my whole day brainstorming on this, I really could. Hmmmm... this sounds WAY better than being a lawyer, right M3?
Perfectly normal to have shared all of your feelings etc with your H while you were married. Now, well, there's no point to it. He's not going to help you, he will just use it as an opportunity to berate you.
As for pushing others away? Idk. You've had a lot of heartbreak & hardship that most people are incapable of understanding and that probably makes some people uncomfortable because they have no idea how to respond or help you. I don't think that's you pushing them away, I just think some people avoid situations like that. It's not your fault. I see that with some of my friends as well, lifelong friends that I know have always been very selfish, but I nontheless thought would be the kind of friend youcould call at 4am and they would bail you out of jail or something. After DDay - almost no support. Really pissed me off even though I know it's more a product of her inability to relate, empathize, etc. Our friendship is more casual now, but I don't take the blame for that, tho I know my sitch is partly to blame for it, and you should just recognize it for what it is and STOP BEATING YOURSELF UP!!!
I am new to this forum. See my profile for my history. It has been about 6 mo since DDay and I feel no better now than I did then. We are trying to R but I just don't know if I can do it.
Since his LTA started before we were married and continued for years, I don't know how to move from that. I feel like every thought, every memory (good or bad), every moment is tainted now. Nothing feels like it was real between us.
His comment is always, that he told the OW what he thought they wanted to hear. He didn't mean any of it (the I love you's etc). But my problem is, how do I know he isn't doing that with me. Just saying what he thinks I want to hear to avoid D.
How can I believe anything he says? I had a bad moment this morning of suspicion. I confronted him. I got the I don't know's and that he has not done anything wrong since we decided to R. He says he "understands" that I have a hard time believing him but that he is telling the truth.
I then told him, how can I believe you? For years, you looked me right in the eye, and said with the utmost sincerity " I have never cheated on you and I never would". How do I know you still aren't looking me right in the eye and lying out your *ss???
Sorry, bad day for my first post here I guess.
Any words of advice?
your situation sounds a lot like mine.
One thing is, he married you. So, clearly there is something different there with you for him.
About trust -- you can't trust him now. He'll have to earn that back, if he can. It's still good he's saying he hasn't done anything. It may or may not be true, but he's being held accountable to you on some level.
I didn't feel any better at 6 months either.
I feel WAY better now though, and Dday was Dec. 1 '09.
And here's the thing: my WH hasn't done enough. He's done something, but not enough. So, time heals all wounds. Lots and lots of time maybe, but it heals. With or without his help.
My WH had an LTA for 20 years. So, on Dday I was 34 (he's nearly 10 years older), which meant he'd been seeing this woman longer than I'd even been an adult.
So, the question is, what did the LTA mean to him? Getting that question answered helped me somehow.
His answer? She was a long-term on again off again friends with benefits person. He said it made him feel young to have that connection to his past, it was exciting to take a risk and it was easy.
It was hard to hear. But, there would be no "good" explanation in any event.
At any rate, knowing what it meant to him helped me make some decisions of my own. So, I would suggest trying to find that out from him.
My WH and his OW made their families fast friends. Even now, my house is loaded with reminders of her, and thus, their A. Yesterday I replaced a picture taken of my family while we were on vacation with her family with a picture taken of two of my sons on a day after Dday. I also found the nanny had put one of her kids hand-me-downs on the toddler (every time we open up a box of new sizes I find more clothes that were from her) there are toys, she painted the inside of her house the same color as mine . . . it was 6 years of my life. The reminders will never fully go away, but new things have happened, and will happen and it will become a distant part of the past and fade in importance.
As for feeling like nothing was real. I know. I felt like that too.
One of the reasons you feel this way is because its true.
You've been married; your "spouse" hasn't even been in an exclusive relationship.
So, you don't know what your marriage will be like. That's ok. Just see where it goes. If you don't like it, you don't have to stay. Your spouse married you under false pretenses.
If his A's truly are over, things will begin to change. He's got nowhere else to siphon off relationship energy.
It really takes a lot of time though. In my relationship, WH was in an off again period with OW when he and I met and they started their relationship up again about 3 years after WH and I got together -- and then it was steady until Dday.
I cannot believe how toxic of an influence that A was on him. I knew something was wrong. I tried to get through to him, to get us counseling -- finally I went to MC alone for 3 years before I finally figured out the A. They'd been together for 6 of the 7 years of our M by then.
So, no, my marriage wasn't real. That's ok. Considering I spent half of it going to MC by myself it also wasn't good.
But, we can have a real and good marriage now. It's slow going. It's hard to move around the hurt. I don't know if we'll make it. But it is different now. And getting more different every day. And better. Hopefully he'll regain my trust and we'll be happy. Only time will tell.
You should spend some time thinking about what it would take for him to regain your trust. This took me a long time. For a while, I feared the answer was "nothing can do it".