IC gave me some assignments last session, I am not doing well finding answers to how I can effectively soothe my feelings of anger, hurt, mis-trust, and disgust without unnecessarily throwing the A back into FWW's face by talking about it? I am not comfortable with the idea of just letting time erode the rough edges off these feelings. If it feels wrong now, why shouldn't it 5 years from now?
now we are getting to the root of why you feel the way you feel now....and you know what think about it we can say that about almost anything....how something will feel for us 5 yeras from now....lets see...are you taking steps to make sure that this is not the case, are you learning how to self soothe, are you learning to deal with your pain and hurt.....the sad truth is that there is apossibility that you will feel most of these feelings 5 years from now whether you stay in the marriage or don't.......we CHOOSE HOW we deal with things, which in turn affects how we feel about them....so in a convuleted way we control what we feel about things by chooings our perspectives and how we deal with them.....but it does take time, and it takes conditioning......its like a habit, we don't necessarily lose the habit but replace it with another...we condition ourselves to a new habit in place of the old...we teach ourselves how to behave and sometimes we fake it til we make it...because somewhere along the line of faking it we forget that we are faking it and it becomes real...
I am not doing well finding answers to how I can effectively soothe my feelings of anger, hurt, mis-trust, and disgust without unnecessarily throwing the A back into FWW's face by talking about it?
Me neither. I have to keep stopping myself from going to my H every time I have these feelings. In fact, I've been struggling with it all morning.
It feels like he should be the one to fix the problem he caused- but I know I have to find the power within myself to heal.
Easier said than done.
And I've also been feeling like I don't have that "in love" feeling.
Had a good time with H last night - but it was more like hanging out with a friend to me.
This is a bit TMI, but I've always experienced sex as more of an emotional thing rather than a physical thing, meaning that I would only enjoy it if I was in love with the person. This is one of the reasons that our sex life pre-DDay had become almost non-existent, because I didn't feel emotionally connected to my H. Lately, I've noticed that I'm enjoying the sex without having that simultaneous "I love you" kind of feelings.
In all seriousness, this cannot be a good sign.
That's actually why I made plans for the date night last night to just try to push thru all this negativity. Didnt really work tho. I mean, I"m not upset or anything, I'm just not feeling that spark.
I also fully realize that the second my H stopped trying, I would be upset. I do love him.
O - well - no real advice there - just a little more misery loves company kind of a thing...
m3. The gators did not get me yet. I have just been busier than a cat covering up shit. Sorry to learn about your H and his latest internet activties. I would not like that stuff at all.
ats. Letting by gones be. That is hard to do.
njgal. Your daughter having the eating disorder must have been frightning. You had much to deal with.
miracle. Teenagers should be confined to quarters till they are not teens anymore.
Women of the tribe. Pulling the catheter! Ouch. It is not so bad if pulled out rapidly. The slow pull would probably cause the most pain. The big hurt would be when it is put back in. Just saying.
Dip has to go for now.
Hugs to the tribe.
I have been busier than a cat covering up shit.
But then my laugh became bittersweet, because I think that is what the WS does/did all the time!!!
I should have taken notes to address everyone, the short term memory is not so great anymore. I can remember all the lyrics to "Miss American Pie", but not what I had for breakfast, or why I came into a room to look for....now what was it???
Nofun: I know many of us, myself included suggested to wait a LITTLE BIT before confronting. LOL, we want Mr. Nofun to be awake and aware enough to hear you and answer you!!! Tryn's letter sounds good. You would need to approach him as calmly as possible because WH will just go into defense mode and nothing will be accomplished.
Entertaining visitors??? WTF?? People should be helping you!!! Take care of yourself. Get some reinforcements from his family or your kids!!!
You need to tell him, "See how I am here for you now? See how I am taking care of you? I have always been here for you!!!!! But unless you are really committed to us and our marriage, I will choose to no longer always be here for you like a doormat for you to fall back on!"
I'm sorry Nofun. Mr. Nofun is really in my prayers for his illness, the cancer in his body and in his emotions. (I think my WH's cancer has eaten away all his morals long ago, or his morals were the cancer itself!)
I think a lot of us are upset for you with all you have gone through and are still taking care of him!!
Try to detach emotionally while you are doing this, as though you are taking care of an acquantence KWIM?
Ats: What I am feeling from your posts is that you have been working so very hard and so long with this relationship and your WW (FWW) and trying to help her and understand her, that in a way you've neglected to explore yourself thoroughly.
You are "burning out" KWIM?
People who are caregivers or teachers of special ed often get "burnt out".
Your WW cannot know what you want and feel, all the time, lol, I know I don't even know what I want and feel all the time, never mind someone trying to figure it out!!
Ok, gotta run to IC for now. I'll come back and post later!
Feelings of love could be… Attraction or Lust, or maybe a deep sense of pride, happiness, or playfulness.. satifaction feelings from a gift… any others?
- Buy your spouse something sexy and asked them to wear it… You might get a feeling of lust.
- While your spouse is sitting on the couch, you sit next to them and cuddle, you offer to rub a back, leg or neck.. and the hand might just pass over.. Uh-oh..
- You buy some lotion and tell you spouse on Wednesday night, they are going to take an hour and rub it all over you naked body.
- Gaining pride is very hard. I hope one day I can be very proud again. I think it is coming with time. I think it comes with things you spouse does.. like making dinner without you asking. Hugging you everyday and doing all the loving things I have mentioned in the past..
- Playfulness is your own responsibility… renting a movie, going to a pro game, taking the boat out, building a sand castle, playing a game together, making a trip together.
- We should meet our spouse with a kiss everyday we leave and greet.. EVERYTIME.
Start living again for yourselves… Do stuff without the kids.. do stuff together with the kids.. You will begin to see what takes place. I just cannot imagine being happy again without starting to live a happy life again… If you make a decision to R, then also make the decision to fully commit and love again. IMO, Pardon is the only way. Doing those forgiving things, Not wearing a mask anymore afraid to tell our spouses in a loving way what really hurts us..without anger, but in a way it decribes feelings only... we can also tell them what makes us happy…
It is not easy but we all have it within ourselves to do it. So many I see on our SI board won’t take steps to really help your relationship.. Like signing up and going to Retrouvaille.
Of course, we cannot control what other do. They may choose destructive, unhealthy, unloving behaviors. We must be wise enough to know when it happens, when to look, what to do and also have the courage to tell them when it is wrong… when we feel wronged, we must say it. We must have the courage to take step and find a new way of life if we are in misery… When must also know what is healthy and not healthy ourselves! We also have an obligation to help others. As we all struggle finding our happiness, we must share what it takes to be happy… what we do.. we must also share our experiences and show compassion..
I had the greatest weekend in Chicago.. Cubs Game, Willy tower (old Sears tower), ran 6 miles on the lake front, shopping, good deep pan Pizza, Walked the river front, Saw some filming of a movie Transformers 3… All with my family… It was a happy time. I took care of all the arrangements… I made myself happy! It was with my W and kids. Hardly a thought about infidelity. Yes, it was there everyday but it’s OK, I choose not to say anything, and choose to hold my W hand when it happened. She smiled at me.
Oh well.. make it a good day… Tonight is boiled shrimp, fried shrimp, a few beers… wine and my good friend from out of town is visiting… Peace.
[This message edited by trynhard at 12:45 PM, August 9th (Monday)]
Recently, when I hold her, kiss her, hug her, I am imagining her holding, kissing, hugging, and more (much more) with OM. When I think about this I do not want to be physical with her. So I am struggling, do I suppress the thoughts? IC seems to think I can find a way to "manage" them. Recently, and for now, when I hug or kiss her or imagine being with her I feel that I am betraying myself.
This has/had been an issue with sex, but now is any physical expression of affection.
... meet our spouse with a kiss everyday we leave and greet.. EVERYTIME
Just like the OM did.
All the things you describe to do with R are correct, BUT, I feel what may be making a lot of BS's hesitant about making that commitment is that they are still unsure if the WS is making that commitment fully. "What if they are lying again? What if all their actions are a lie, I believed it before, what if they do it again?"
It's hard to let go and become vulnerable again.
I agree with you about "love".
I wrote a poem forever ago to my xWH on the theme "I fell in love with you all over again".
We do love our spouses, but that "in love" feeling is not always there for so many reasons, and often because we are so busy dealing with "life", kids, work, etc, that we are not really "with" our spouses emotionally and interpersonally.
As Tryn says, if we do interact with our spouses, enjoy them, really live with them, we can "fall in love all over again". I know I've done it several times with WH <sigh>
ETA: Saw IC. I am trying to work on something within myself. Was on a NPD forum (here and another place) with a questionairre about "abusers" (not necessarilly physical abusers)
Scary thing was a lot of the "tactics" mentioned were things my mother did as a BPD. I was "trained" to accept these behaviors as normal.
I have to work on if my mother or WH is angry with me, I take it so much to heart that I obsess about it for days until I am on their "good side" again. It is really not something they are doing per se, but my reaction to them. IC says I'm giving them too much power.
Such a long process to go through. I have such abandonment issues that if I was such a "good girl" they won't leave, but they left anyway...I just postponed it.
My only saving grace was my grandmother. She did give me unconditional love. I knew in my heart that even if I did something she was not happy with, she may be angry at my actions, but she would still love me. I try to do this with my kids as much as possible, and I asked all of them this once, and the two oldest DS's said they always felt I would love them no matter what, so I guess I did something right!!
Is your W loving you now?
[This message edited by trynhard at 1:22 PM, August 9th (Monday)]
Honest.. I know are getting stronger. You are moving foward slowly by forming a plan, working on yourself. That is good. Keep gaining strenght. You will be fine.. and never loose being that "good girl".. That is attraction! not a problem!
[This message edited by trynhard at 1:33 PM, August 9th (Monday)]
Yes, at least she is trying and learning. Now she asks what do I want to do, and I believe that she genuinely means it, but I get caught up in the old tapes where she would never make a choice so it would not be her fault if things did not go well. I would have to decide what we did and then later (weeks, months?) hear how everything was always about me, always what I wanted. See, I was supposed to know intuitively what she wanted or needed, and then provide it. Many old tapes (two decades of them), plus the years with the other men, I just get all wrapped up in it and want to rip it all apart. The only time she really made it clear what she wanted is when she chose one of the other men over me, and I didn’t even know about those times. Now it is all supposed to be OK. She loves me now; forget the past. For 4+ years, the line from her OM was I did not know what a wonderful wife I had, now she says she did not know what a wonderful husband she had. Well why didn’t she?
wow, did I get going. I guess I will have something to talk about on Wednesday.
I thought I needed to wean off SI to get better, but I actually feel better today than for a week. I am getting good support here, thank you Tribe.
your pain on the betrayal needs to remain separate from your pain on marriage shit...as it does for her as well...trust needs to be re-established, or as much trust as can be mustered...her acts of remorse need to be at a point where you believe them....where you can start to move forward...and believe it or not you are already moving forward...and this right here is good...it means you are listening to yourself...now you need to answer yourself as well....not sure i am making sense...another one of those i see it in my head times...not so sure i am articulating it well though..
honest, njgal and allgood you all have a pm
During our dog walk, FWW and I talked tonight about details (I was thinking about this after Allgood's post in the R forum) and I had a bit of an aha moment. It is not so much the information I want from the details, rather it is that she will be fully open in providing them, that there is no longer anything to hide. I feel like she is still holding information back, and it worries me that she is afraid of saying the wrong thing and revealing a still hidden truth. This is how I felt three months ago just before she finally gave me 4 pages of new details.
After our talk, FWW said that she has been trying to control the environment, to prevent triggers, keep me happy, etc. She knows that is wrong, but it is still her nature. I guess she freaked last night when we were all at a movie and there was a character with OM#2's name, and she thought he looked like a young OM#2.
So we have talked for 2+ hours tonight, but is still awkward. In fact, having started the conversation it is tenser then when it was all held unsaid. It may take awhile. FWW often has to think about things for a while. I think she was becoming defensive and catastrophezing towards the end. I have IC Wednesday to try and figure out what to do.
It bothers me that I do not feel attracted to her physically.
I am afraid, I am afraid I will get angry and mean and he will get defensive.
Tryn and the rest of the tribe - you are all correct. I am trying to muster up courage...I'll let you all know what happens when I do. I don't want to be a doormat.
I feel like such a failure!
I know we all feel this way from time to time, so I am not challenging your feelings; however, I think it is up to us in times like this to remind you how wonderful you really are. If your H was phishing, that is no reflection on you. It's a reflection on him. I know we tend to take great personal offense, like if we were better in this way & that way, they wouldn't have done this & that, but it's just objectively untrue.
All I can offer you at the moment - I am having my own crisis. Spoke with my H for 1 1/2 hrs tonight. He was more cooperative than usual, but not by much. Learned some new stuff, no bomb shells tho.
Just sad to hear all this crap & even sadder that he doesn't appear disgusted with himself while saying it, nor does he seem to be able to muster up an ability to comfort me.
I already know what you all will say, so I will save you the effort. I'm fine.
and since when are you not attracted to her...since this new ambivalence began....sometimes we need to like someone genuinely for that attraction to be there....and that is ok, it will come back i am bettin..
fun: praytell what is it exactly that you failed at...and it is perfectly ok that you are afraid to talk to him...and when you are ready to hear the answers he gives you you will ask....either that or when you get mad enough...not sure which one it will be...but i would think mad enough..
allgood: your husband is a cop...i think all cops shut down on certain levels..add to that his inability to communicate on your level...and an hour and a half for him must have felt like an eternity...(and just so you know, i have done so much worse on the interrogating and/or lengths of convos...all without good results..)
i get the impression that mr allgood is bottom line kind of guy...and deals easily with simple terms..i think when it gets beyond that he turns into the rebellious teen who is getting a lecture...and wants out of trouble but with as little work as possible...but the man is still trying..and doing everything you ask...so yay mr allgood....
for him i would think he feels as though you are beating a dead horse...even though for you that horse is not just alive but running races...
You can either give it to him and watch him read it, or you can read it to him. OR, just give it to him to read and walk away. He could answer orally or write you back.
Just a suggestion.
Allgood: Perhaps because of your WH's profession he is good at hiding his feelings? Wants to be in control of them? IDK.
Ats, hang in there. Perhaps you may not be feeling physically attracted to FWW as a defense mechanism? I think you said once that being physical is your "love language", so you are protecting yourself?
Tryn: I am trying to work on myself. That's all I can do. I don't have a choice about trust or not, WH is with OW, probably sleeping next to her as I write this. He keeps telling me she is his full wife, and will never divorce her.
I'm just dealing with that there is nothing that I have or he did that is special for me...not the kids, house, etc. She was given everything like that and more, even things that belonged to me.
IC wants me to go through my journal and write down in one list all the things that he did that were hurtful, like name the first OC the same name as our daughter who died. She wants me to get angry because I'm burying all the anger and turning itside and getting more and more depressed.
I have to move forward. I'm stuck and scared. I'm scared of writing that list, afraid of letting loose all of that anger.
No fun, please do not feel like a failure for not being able to confront yet. Just maybe take baby steps, as miracle suggests, write it down or something and remember, you only need please you. Maybe you are ok with waiting for now...hat never occurred to me..because I would not be ok with waiting..if you are...then stand up to us..to me..and say..I am ok with waiting to speak to him! LOL! You are ok No Fun, do what you gotta do!
M3, you sound better, where is that baby? I need a picture.
Allgood, I am with you so far as the need for closeness in sex, you need what you need and should not have to settle for less. we ask a lot of ourselves when we decide to try to reconile after an LTA. Give it time.
Tryin, well, you are right, we all must try everything before giving up, i suppose. Retrouville huh? Is good?
Dip, I do not quite get you yet, so ..hey..
Honest, "what if all of their actions are a lie again?", yes, what you said! That is my fear.
ats, so sorry you have those fears and flashback feelings too.
NJGAL, always going to be up and down it seems like to me, back and forth, it seems like to me. i wish it were not so, I do.
Miracle, those kids, they will be grown soon. Just stand as tall and firm now as possible and I know you are good at that. Now is the time to be firm, the firmer the better..thi is the last of it..you are in the last curve of the race girl...it gets better from here on out...
I just can only say that I do not always have the right attitude and sometimes I do choose fear over love and forgiveness. I do. Sometimes it is just too hard to fight my way up from the bottom of the pool of disbelief. He took away my faith in him. I never doubted his love for me until he proved to me that he did not value me and now sometimes I just cannot get there..even though..he might just be completely innocent of any wrong doing in the present.
I do not ..however..fault myself for that. In fact I think it is astonishing that I am here trying at all..that I allowed him to even try to show me that he is sincere is a gift he does not deserve.
If..I cannot ..or will not..accept..in the end..that he has changed..because I just have too many bad memories..of him telling his lover how bad a wife I was when I thought we were best friends...too many memories of him pretending we were close when he was lying about who we were to each other...then I tried. I owed him nothing. I did not even owe him a chance. the chance was free.
I never stood at an alter, in front of God and man and promised to forgive him for betraying me. He did stand there and he did promise to love, honor, cherish and to remain faithful to me.
Only one of us has broken a promise. I will do my best but I do not know if I can do this. It is hard.
Self-deception- is literally a matter of deceiving oneself- and thus raises unique questions.
How can one deceive himself-unless he already knows-what it is that he is deceiving himself about?
Honest: I think you should start working on your IC's suggestion asap and get angry! And, who knows, maybe you will be writing the foundation for a book or movie! A win-win for you - you vent it out & cash in!
M3: Yes - where are you?!? I know you are up to no good when you go missing....
As for me: I told him I was fighting the urge to distance myself from him by talking to him. I wound up sleeping on the couch last night.
He told me this morning that he doesn't know how to comfort me and he's just afraid it's going to lead to more talking about stuff he doesnt want to talk about.
He did point out that he stopped what he was doing when I told him I was upset and tried to hold me, but all I did was keep talking about it. (Yes, I did - but I wasn't just re-hashing, I was telling him what conclusions I was drawing from it.) Anyway, I see his point.
I guess I just don't see him reacting the way I would when we have these talks or when I'm upset. I would have a lot more compassion & I would think the concern and worry would be written all over his face. I think you guys are dead-on with the teen analogy.
Told me this morning that he loves me & he knows I don't believe that he does. He's correct (tho I didn't tell him that - I just told him I love him too, blah, blah, blah).
Feeling a bit empty, but that's ok.
Paper Roses: I guess I'm choosing fear right now too.
I think you are right that your WH being the only person you ever loved and ever had sex with will hinder your progress. JMHO
It used to sadden me that I'd been married before -- and now I know it's a blessing.
So, I'll tell you how I feel about that; maybe it will help you somehow. I've only loved my two husbands and they are the only men I've ever had sex with.
So, as for sex. To me, sex with different people is just different. Not better, not worse. I think a lot of the "wow" factor in sex is situational. I couldn't possibly pick one or the other as "better" in bed. There are things I used to do with my XH that my WH and I have never done, but that doesn't make me want my XH back.
As for love, I had a much more passionate relationship with my XH. Deeply romantic. We were the same age and had gone to HS together so we were more friends and equals whereas WH is always trying to pull rank.
I can't say that losing XH really broke my heart though, even though I loved him, or that I pine for him. I actually didn't think of him once for YEARS at a time.
Hope that helps some.
"He told me this morning that he doesn't know how to comfort me and he's just afraid it's going to lead to more talking about stuff he doesnt want to talk about."
WAH. Poor baby.
[This message edited by m334455 at 9:08 AM, August 10th (Tuesday)]