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User Topic: Spouses/Partners of Sex Addicts 5
anotherOctober
♀ Member
Member # 29794
Default  Posted: 5:38 PM, January 30th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TMY, I relate to many things you posted. thank you
We made the best decisions we could at the time. It helps me to remember that my DKs have a higher power also.

Posts: 125 | Registered: Oct 2010
Fighting2Survive
♀ Member
Member # 28410
Default  Posted: 8:39 PM, January 30th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Definitely print out 7yrs' post for newbies for your friend. Maybe she could look for S-Anon or Al-anon meetings? They're free and they emphasize personal growth, boundary setting & detachment. If she needs a sitter so she can get help maybe you could help her? Just remember, you can offer her support, but she is the one who needs to act. If she isn't ready, there's not much you can do for her. Ideally she needs a CSAT or an addiction therapist for her. If money is an issue there are resources out there for her. If she won't even meet you without hiding it from him, that's a serious sign of trouble. Big hugs for all of you as you try to navigate these treacherous waters.

I plan to share them tomorrow. She lives 4 states away from me. That' part of my frustration/impatience... I can't get to her immediately. We talk on the phone during the day, but it's always when he is gone. Money shouldn't be a problem (she owns her own company), but I'm more worried about his reaction. He hates me, always has. I'm the faithful bitch who he can not manage to drive away.

If I need to, I'll book a flight and go there in person. I just hate that she's dealing with a man who seems to be on a rapid downward spiral. His behavior has escalated in the last three weeks. FWH and I talked over the weekend and I'm seriously considering an intervention for her and her DS.

Is that a bad idea? I don't want to make this worse.


Me: BW, 40.......Him: FWH, 40
D-day: 3-22-10
DS1: 11, DS2: crawling
Status: R going well

"When you can tell the story and it doesn't bring up any pain, you know it is healed." - Iyanla Vanzant, Broken Pieces


Posts: 7279 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: NC
SabinatheOwl
♀ Member
Member # 30023
Concerned  Posted: 10:02 PM, January 31st (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

To F2S~

Knowing about the distance is helpful for trying to understand the the sitch more clearly. I've no idea if an intervention would be good or bad as I've zero experience with them.

she's dealing with a man who seems to be on a rapid downward spiral. His behavior has escalated in the last three weeks.

I'm not an expert, but I doubt he's spiralled this fast. More likely, she's only just realizing/accepting/reaching out (etc) recently & is watching him cycle with clearer eyes. It's got to be so, so hard for you to watch your BFF from afar & want to help her & her kid(s).

Best wishes for all involved.Please keep us abreast of changes, I'd be interested in how things go.

~ Sabina


Details & story in profile

"Live a life not an apology." Edward R.Murrow

"I can be changed by what happens to me but I refuse to be reduced by it."

Maya Angelou


Posts: 1350 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: Metro DC
Fighting2Survive
♀ Member
Member # 28410
Default  Posted: 10:51 PM, January 31st (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

More likely, she's only just realizing/accepting/reaching out (etc) recently & is watching him cycle with clearer eyes

I think you are right... she's opening up more. There's been a lot going on that she's just now sharing with me. It's horrifying to know that she's kept all this in for so long (years from what she was describing). We talk to each other every day and she's been going through hell without me knowing it.

She's cutting. She told me today. I was so stunned that I couldn't think to even ask questions. I begged her to get help immediately and she's agreed to. By the time we hung up she had promised that she would make an IC appointment for herself.

I read her some of the posts on my thread and she got sick while we were on the phone. She said that several of them sounded almost exactly like her H. I don't know if she is ready for a confrontation with her H at this point. I'm hoping the IC will help her with charting a course for her and her DS.

I found myself on AFF tonight searching to see if he had a profile. They live in a rural area but he travels all over the state so I don't have a lot to work with. I wouldn't begin to know how to track someone like that online anyway so it was a complete shot in the dark. Installing a keylogger is out of the question for her since he would likely find it within minutes of logging on. She wants to believe that he wouldn't act out with someone else, but she didn't sound confident. I'm convinced that he has.

I'll keep you posted as I learn more. I'm hoping that she will come here herself for the support and so she will know that others have been through what she's going through.

Sorry if all this sounds jumbled.

Thanks, Sabina.


Me: BW, 40.......Him: FWH, 40
D-day: 3-22-10
DS1: 11, DS2: crawling
Status: R going well

"When you can tell the story and it doesn't bring up any pain, you know it is healed." - Iyanla Vanzant, Broken Pieces


Posts: 7279 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: NC
7yrsbetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 10198
Default  Posted: 11:28 PM, January 31st (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Installing a keylogger is out of the question for her since he would likely find it within minutes of logging on.

Not if she buys a good one. Seriously. PM me if you want the name of the one I used.


Me(44)
Him(46) arthurdent (rSA)
Married 12 yrs, together 15
Renewed Vows 12/19/08
One DD(8)
You can avoid reality but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.~Ayn Rand

Posts: 2167 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Colorado
runningscared
♀ New Member
Member # 30425
Default  Posted: 8:58 AM, February 1st (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on a mental argument I'm having with myself. I'm struggling with the concept of SA as an illness and therefore out of the control of the addict. I can understand the drive to act out but surely they know its wrong, else why the guilt and anger transference afterwards? And if they know it's wrong, why do they continue without getting some help? Are they really so lacking in empathy that they can't see the problems? And if so, can a SA ever really gain that empathy - and, with it, the ability to be intimate?

I'm trying to give my husband time to work on his recovery but it's requiring me to just bury how I feel which is not conducive to good recovery on my part. When I allow myself to think about how I feel, my whole body just screams 'Get the hell out of there!'. (It's only been about 6 weeks since he started recovery but it feels like forever!)

Any opinions gratefully received. I'm about to go away for a week, leaving him on his own at home so I'm feeling a little fragile and in need of mental support.


Posts: 39 | Registered: Dec 2010
FmrLIer
♀ Member
Member # 29784
Default  Posted: 3:16 PM, February 1st (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

runningscared - it looks like you and I had our last DDays at the same time (see my profile)

I still have the same thoughts from time to time that you do. How could my SA look at me and tell me he was doing one thing only for me to realize now, that he'd been cybering or whatever. How could he have come home from his Nan's funeral, allowed me to comfort him and accept my love and affection when two of his PA's happened while he was up there? It's so wrong and deceitful. But, I'm starting to understand, little by little, that their brain isn't wired the same as our is. I know someone with more experience will drop in and explain it better than I can right now.

As far as empathy, my SA gets it. He knows he screwed up and he is fully remorseful. He told me one night that he didn't understand why I stayed. That he placed himself in my shoes and is just mortified by what he's done and the damage he caused me. That gave him the empathy.

I am allowing my SA the time he needs to work his recovery and in the beginning, I was obsessing over whether or not he was doing all the right things. It took everyone on here and my IC to finally get it through my head - this is his addiction to over come, not mine. Once I got that through my thick skull I began to focus on me and also us as a couple.

I'm not saying there won't be slips - because I'm sure they will happen but I'm still optimistic they won't.

Ok-this is me on a "feeling good about my marriage" day LOL


Me (BS)
Him (fSAH)
OA/PA

Ignorance was bliss but it wasn't the reality of my marriage...


Posts: 427 | Registered: Oct 2010
FmrLIer
♀ Member
Member # 29784
Default  Posted: 3:16 PM, February 1st (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just wanted to share some good news -

SA got his one month chip last week


Me (BS)
Him (fSAH)
OA/PA

Ignorance was bliss but it wasn't the reality of my marriage...


Posts: 427 | Registered: Oct 2010
7yrsbetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 10198
Default  Posted: 3:44 PM, February 1st (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

runningscared
Have you started your recovery? Have you read the books? Seen a CSAT?

You have to educate yourself on SA and do your work in order to recover yourself.

These questions you have are all answered by doing your recovery work and by learning about SA.

FmrLIer

SA got his one month chip last week

That's great!

7


Me(44)
Him(46) arthurdent (rSA)
Married 12 yrs, together 15
Renewed Vows 12/19/08
One DD(8)
You can avoid reality but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.~Ayn Rand

Posts: 2167 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Colorado
unicornsearcher
♀ Member
Member # 912
Cool  Posted: 3:57 PM, February 1st (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm struggling with the concept of SA as an illness and therefore out of the control of the addict.

There is controversy even with the professionals as to whether or not addiction is a valid "disease". It is easy to find both sides of the arguement online. And as the technology & better research is giving additional information, it makes it easier to know what approaches will be successful in what way or not.

I can understand the drive to act out but surely they know its wrong, else why the guilt & anger transference afterwards?

Knowing something is wrong is not always enough by itself to stop people from doing it, or feeling badly afterwards. In some cases, I believe that feeling badly afterwards is as much of the "allure" or "fix" if you will, as the chosen self sabotage even on a subconcious level.

With us, H had suffered tons of abuse before me. When I didn't abuse him, he started to abuse himself. He was more comfortable feeling like a worthless piece of crap than a valued, cherished & loved human being. That was a completely foreign state of being for him (other than love of his kids).

And if they know it's wrong, why do they continue without getting some help?

Because you can't solve a problem with the same thinking, habits & patterns of behavior that caused it. And a huge part is an inability to see that they need help, being too ashamed to seek it or unwilling / unable to admit the truth so the magnitude of the problem is acknowledged to themself or anyone else.

They may believe they can't be helped, or scared to find out how screwed up they are. They may believe everyone else is like they are, that it's "normal". They may believe that they can solve the problem themself. With SA's, many believe that the marriage and/or partner can solve their issues without ever admitting the extent of the problems they are struggling with.

For example, they think that being married will give them enough sex to stop the desire for SA activities. No one or any marriage in & of itself will ever be enough to do that, so then they can often be disappointed / hurt / angry or even feel betrayed that the partner doesn't automatically solve a problem they are often unaware even exists.

Then they may think that they just married the wrong person instead of being able to acknowledge or maybe even realize they have be truthful & seek help to actually fix the real issues.

When they seek help, they focus on the wrong thing (such as the partner's faults or dissatisfaction with the marriage) so the help they get is only a bandaid on a hemorrage they refuse or are unable to admit is going on in them.

In reality, SA is an intimacy / attachment / bonding disorder. It can make a healthy relationship feel extremely uncomfortable or even unbearable to them. They just can't explain why when they may want to be loving & loved, they do things that guarantee they will be alone & lonely instead. It takes a lot of help & soul searching to reverse that dynamic since its roots are deep in their subconscious & often, in their abuse / trauma history.

Are they really so lacking in empathy that they can't see the problems? And if so, can a SA ever really gain that empathy - and, with it, the ability to be intimate?

Lack of empathy is only one symptom of the issue. It's lack of self awareness & an inability to practice consistently good coping / partnership skills or other healthy behaviors as well. And once the right issues are properly addressed that better knowledge along with those healthier patterns of behavior with better coping / partnership skills can be put into operation.

As many successfully recovered addicts & their partners can attest to. But not all will become or can be caring, emphathetic, loving, honest partners especially if they refuse to aggressively & consistently tackle the problems with honest disclosure of what is going on with them.

Here's some more thoughts as to the seeds of dysfunctional spouses, altho I don't subscribe to the 'birth trauma' being the sole cause of the SA issues, but certainly an abusive childhood with crappy parents or abandonment will be the seeds of dysfunction in life, including the disconnection & addictive behaviors:

http://primal-page.com/cuddle.htm

Cuddling & Holding As Stress Reducers & ... As Possible Stress Increasers by John A. Speyrer

"Bonding is a strong emotional attachment that helps us want to be with one another, help & protect each other & touch & become sexual with one another. High levels of oxytocin encourage & strengthen bonding.

Because early trauma & lack of love affect the output of this hormone, the ability to relate to others & have good sex later in life may be determined even before birth & just after.

We learn how to bond emotionally in adulthood through early bonding in childhood, as simplistic as that sounds." Dr. A. Janov's blog: On Vital Signs in Primal Therapy, 2/10

AS A STRESS REDUCER
The July/August, 2005, issue of Psychosomatic Medicine reports how "warm partner contact" or cuddling can mitigate the effects of stressful activities.

A study by Grewin, Girdler, Amico & Light at the University of North Carolina's department of psychiatry reported on two studies of couples, in stabilized relationships, who before undergoing a stressful experience (they were told they would be giving a public speech) received body cuddling from their spouses.

Each group & its control were placed in separate rooms, their blood pressure, oxytocin & cortisol (a stress hormone) levels were measured.

During their speeches those speakers who had not received hugs & cuddles from their partners had heart rates & blood pressure rates which were much higher than speakers from the other couples who had held hands & embraced for 20 seconds.

It was reported:

"Our findings suggest that when the relationship is supportive & strong, time spent with the partner may be beneficial by reducing blood pressure & protecting against future heart disease," & concluded:

"These are the first findings in humans linking oxytocin to the strength of the partner relationship, & it was seen in both men & women."

The study surmised that oxytocin is one factor which gives marriage its beneficial effects by calming distress.

Perhaps the increased level of oxytocin explains why married couples live longer, although I remember reading somewhere that some wag claimed that marriage couples didn't live longer - it only seemed longer!

Statistics show that being divorced, single or experiencing grief can damage one's health. Increased oxytocin may have a number of other unknown health benefits.

And not just any hug or touch will do. For example, a perfunctory hug will not raise those desirable hormone levels.

AS A STRESS INCREASER

[quote]"More typically in healthy relationships, sex improves with time & shared experiences.

Addictive sex, on the other hand, wanes with increased knowledge of the other person because it no longer provides escape from buried feelings."
-- Charlotte D. Kasl, Ph.D. in Women, Sex, & Addiction

The implications of a full study of the effects of touch & cuddling would have been much broader if it had included couples where the relationship wasn't "supportive & strong", to use the words from the authors of the study, who apparently screened out couples from participating in the study when the relationship wasn't "supportive & strong."

Those of us in primal & other deeply regressive therapies know how biographical traumatic events which go back to birth & before & to infancy & early childhood cause us to become who we are, & possessing personalities which we are powerless to change.

If such "neurotic" partners of couples had been intentially included in the study, there might have been measureable biochemical data that showed a qualitative & quantitative difference in touching & hugging, which might be a function of the repressed trauma in those individuals.

Couples can go through the motions of touching & hugging & these behaviors can result in a very different biochemical experience, depending on the shape & amount of their repressed pain, & whether there has been enough time for it to rise in their relationship.

Repressed memories from early physical events like spankings, sexual abuse & birth trauma can all be unconsciously triggered by touch & holding; even by touch & holding received from loved ones. In such cases, my guess is that the level of oxytocin could very well become reduced.

What this means is that there are people who, under certain conditions, cannot be comforted in the same way that "normal" people can be comforted in a stressful situation -- & attempts at comforting might even have an opposite effect.

I would guess that there are some people who have so much repressed pain related to touching & holding that touching & holding would increase their cortisol levels & reduce oxytocin levels, in what for them is a stressful experience because it triggers enormously stressful repressed experiences from the past.

It's all about repressed emotional pain & learning.

Try petting a stray dog who has been kicked & abused & you just heighten its anxiety, as the animal always expects to be mistreated.

So instead of hugging releasing the "love" & "relaxation" hormones, cuddling for some people, could conceivably not have the desired effect, & it might have the opposite effect.

In most marriages, the sexual honeymoon of newlyweds does not continue indefinitely, & in a disheartening number of cases, love is soon replaced with tension & constant bickering.

Why does the deep love originally shared by the spouses soon turn them into strangers & even enemies?

Primal therapist Alice
Rose explains:

"The men become distraught either because the relationship feels claustrophobic or because their wives no longer want sex.

Often it is the woman who is unhappy with the relationship because she claims her husband has greater priorities than spending time with her." [Bonds of Fire: Rekindling Sexual Rapture, p. 34]

Some become driven to cheat to dispel the tension from unconscious memories which begin rising due to the intimacy or the "togetherness" of their relationship.

Before marriage they had been able to leave the other's presence, after a date, to recuperate, to repair their defenses, but the marriage with its continual proximity, for those, often becomes an overload of intimacy.

This can happen to varying degrees & in different ways.

With minimal repressed pain & strong defenses a couple's love & closeness with each other can deepen.

But many partners who did not have an loving positive relationship with their parents can sabotage their marriages.

They do not realize what is happening.

They become more distant & unsharing in their thoughts & feelings, & as a result, they ruin the relationship with their spouse who only expects normal intimacy.

I assume that the couples in the study reported in Psychosomatic Medicine were those in "good" marriages.

A good marriage is one in which one or both spouses don't have enough repressed pain to sabotage the marriage, or because of good defenses, the dark shadows from the crib have not as yet broken through to consciousness.

The marriage relationship become more burdensome & tedious as innumerable physical & psychological triggers meet with spousal defenses.

In such cases, attempts at greater intimacy brings up feelings & memories of relationship deficiencies which each had lacked decades earlier.

Both want from the other the good mother or father which they had not had & this truth is behind the lack of satisfaction in the relationship in the present.

The birth of a child can trigger resentful feelings of rejection in the needy father since his wife must now spend less time with him. Some men have a difficult time relating to their wife as a mother.

When he thinks of his wife as a mother be begins thinking of his wife as his mother. This does not mean that his wife was not thought of as his mother before she gave birth, it only means that after his wife becomes a mother, those blocked feelings become more powerful & often are more difficult to keep blocked.

Incredibly, homicide is the leading cause of death for pregnant & recently pregnant women. See Intimate Partner Homicide & Pregnancy.

Breuer & Freud believed that neurotics suffer from reminiscences, but the suffering is mostly endured by the women partners of those who act out.

As some of his early mother-related material leak into consciousness the partner may suffer from more neurotic symptoms than heretofore as those memories attempt to become conscious‡.

There are many examples.

A well known one is the case of Elvis Presley. He asked his wife, Priscilla, late in her pregnancy, for a trial separation. He needed time to think he said. His daughter, Lisa Marie, was born two months later.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvis_& _Me )

In a more rational world, the death of a parent of a spouse or the death of one of their children would draw the couple closer but instead such losses can become potent triggers to unresolved traumatic memories.

One would expect that the grieving spouses would find some solace being able to rely on each other during such a tragedy.

However, the death of a child has resulted in many failed marriages & those are again due to a triggering of very early repressed trauma.

When one spouse concludes that attempts at change have become hopeless, the early childhood feelings of frustration can interfere with the relationship.

Indifference & low level depression escalates from pouting & petulance into open anger & hostility.

Dr. Alice Rose writes that the need to escape the "suffocating" (birth feelings) confines of the marital relationship are acted out in adultery, desertion, & divorce.

The sexual relationship in marriage follows a similar course as does the closing up of emotional intimacy in the marriage. The culprits in both spouses, once again, are usually the unconscious memories brought into the marriage.

Often these repressed memories arise slowly but sometimes such ascending memories occur during an early stage of marriage & also explains the seemingly incomprehensible behavior of "honeymoon cheating" by a spouse, when on rare occasions, a spouse is driven to unfaithfulness on their honeymoon a result of spousal intimacy bringing forth unconscious memories of repressed early trauma.

For those with few such early emotional issues, love & sex continue to flourish over time.

For those with severe repressed trauma, even the post-orgasmic intruding feelings from long ago begin to become uncomfortable.

The dissatisfied partner is usually the husband as he looks to his wife to provide him with the needs his mother never adequately supplied. But his wife is not his mother; & may not wish to play that codependent role.

Instead, she may unconsciously regard him as the good father which she never had & wants to remake her "bad boy" husband into a good father.

The success of these unconscious goals are doomed to failure.

But why does the husband have more problems with intimacy than his wife?

Rose explains that it is usually the husband who feels trapped since he unconsciously relates the pain of birth with his relationship with women. This has to be so because his very first intimate relationship with a woman, his mother, was a painful one (during birth & in infancy & perhaps both physically & emotionally).

He continues to get triggered by all subsequent close relationships with women - the most desirable ones - the ones he especially admires - the ones upon whom he projects his unconscious needs..

After all, as an infant there was no one more desirable than his mother, especially so if he was rejected by her!

It is most probable that his choice of a spouse was based on his relationship with his mother.

Orgasm can reduce the level of our defenses & thus has the potential of allowing us access to our early traumas.

Unfortunately, for some, an orgasm is followed by an amorphous depressive feeling accompanied by a need to get away from the suffocating feeling with which he becomes enveloped.

The normal desire of his spouse for post-coital cuddling is felt by some men as intrusive: "You're not giving me any room"; "I can't breathe; I'm suffocating" "Give me some space; You're too clingy"; I've got to get out." An easy & common defensive escape from these feelings is sleep. Post-coital cuddling is avoided since it can further threaten defenses already lowered by orgasm.

Often the "I've got to get out" feeling is acted upon, & a spouse gets out of the marriage. It works but the relief is only temporary.

Once again, it takes some time for the symptoms triggered by the intimacy of a new relationship to rise.

But, after the excitement of sex with a new partner becomes dulled, the old buried feelings arise once again to threaten the new relationship.

Sexual addiction in marriage is thus explained as the adulterous acts outs, which are just other examples of pseudo-intimacies, escalate into serial escapades or desertion.

Sexual addiction is like drinking seawater when you're thirsty. It doesn't quench the feeling. You can drink & drink & drink, & you're still thirsty because it doesn't satisfy & fufill your real need.

The real need in a neurotic marriage is the old repressed needs of the spouse as a baby, & those needs can never be filled - they can only be felt. ....


11/02 Busted WH 4+ cheating yrs, 11/06 Busted [Month Long Lustfest]. 2/1/08 admits false version of betrayals, so no full disclosure / "whole truth" yet. '09 Together, great work in progress. '12 Still gladly united.

Posts: 14209 | Registered: Jan 2003 | From: Calif
Compartmented
Member
Member # 29410
Default  Posted: 5:25 PM, February 1st (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on a mental argument I'm having with myself. I'm struggling with the concept of SA as an illness and therefore out of the control of the addict. I can understand the drive to act out but surely they know its wrong, else why the guilt and anger transference afterwards? And if they know it's wrong, why do they continue without getting some help? Are they really so lacking in empathy that they can't see the problems? And if so, can a SA ever really gain that empathy - and, with it, the ability to be intimate?

runningscared, someone on this thread posted some quotes from a website called RecoveryNation. I went there and started reading the Partner's Workshop lessons and it answered so many questions of mine which are similar to those you have. I highly recommend you check it out. I was so excited to see it that I read ahead, a couple of lessons a day. I plan to do the exercises more carefully as well.

I'm trying to give my husband time to work on his recovery but it's requiring me to just bury how I feel which is not conducive to good recovery on my part.

Again, RecoveryNation covers this in a way that made sense to me.

Read as much as you can. Eventually things start to fall into place, and that feels so much better than the chaotic feelings from before.

FormerLIer, AWESOME on the chip!


Posts: 1059 | Registered: Aug 2010
runningscared
♀ New Member
Member # 30425
Default  Posted: 5:23 AM, February 2nd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My warmest thanks go out to all of your replies to my panicked plea. In answer to your questions 7, I am working hard on my own recovery - , I've got a veritable library on SA, co-dependency, regaining intimacy and generally coping. I also go to an Al-Anon meeting weekly. I am halfway through the Recovery Nation program and I'm also working through Melody Beattie's first book.

I recognise all that you're saying and I am comfortable with it; unfortunately, I seem to have trouble matching the word with the reality. I think I'm also looking for the impossible - reassurance that it's going to be ok! I think I've got to work harder at building up my own life. Here in the UK, we have very few facilities for partners and, whilst my new Al-Anon friends are wonderful, none of them have lived with recovery and have no experience of SA. Reading this forum is my opportunity to share with others - thank you.


Posts: 39 | Registered: Dec 2010
dazdandconfuzed
Member
Member # 11692
Default  Posted: 9:53 AM, February 2nd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am also working through the Recovery Nation workshop (in fact I may even have been the one that quoted something from there?). I tend to be a bit like runningscared though - I can very easily understand the concepts intellectually but accepting them emotionally is harder. I have definately reached a level of detachment I have never been able to achieve before though. I *think* it's healthy detachment - although sometimes I worry it might just be numbness.

Uni - thanks so much for that last post!! It really is an amazing glimps into what *may* be going on in our H's heads, way, way, way down deep. My H has FINALLY started to get down to his FOO issues with his CSAT after years of being unable to face them. It's scary for him but I think he'll be glad he did it in the end.

I know I harbor a lot of resentment for things they did to him when he was little. I hope he is able to process it all.


Me - BW
Him - WH

Posts: 6618 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: Massachusetts
unicornsearcher
♀ Member
Member # 912
Cool  Posted: 1:45 PM, February 2nd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'd like to ask for you guys to share any experiences you know of regarding minor kids & the effects of SA on them dealing with an addict parent (other than disclosure), which I asked about this weekend for a friend.

Or know of any great sources for to help other than meetings or books that deal with addiction? The kids have only been told the dad is dealing with depression issues.

I'm pretty sure we did tell my adult daughters that WS was SA, but his adult kids have never been told. It's not likely they would be.


11/02 Busted WH 4+ cheating yrs, 11/06 Busted [Month Long Lustfest]. 2/1/08 admits false version of betrayals, so no full disclosure / "whole truth" yet. '09 Together, great work in progress. '12 Still gladly united.

Posts: 14209 | Registered: Jan 2003 | From: Calif
dazdandconfuzed
Member
Member # 11692
Default  Posted: 1:53 PM, February 2nd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Uni - sorry, I got nothing. Wish I did. My H is also an alcoholic and we did eventually disclose that to the kids when they were a bit older. When they went into rehab they were 3 and 5 and we just said "daddy is sick and needs to go to the hospital to get better". When they got older and started asking questions (like "didn't daddy used to drink beer?") I did tell them he was an alcoholic. I have NO IDEA what to do with this SA stuff though, as my kids are still too young to even really get what sex is, although the oldest does understand the basic mechanics. Good luck to your friend.


Me - BW
Him - WH

Posts: 6618 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: Massachusetts
torn2bits
♀ Member
Member # 28376
Default  Posted: 8:15 PM, February 2nd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Well...SAWH is still mean to me. Still living at the other house. I asked him if he saw some coupons for a show we go to every year and he said "no why who are you going with?"

Why in the hell is he asking about who I am going with? I don't understand.

I am miserable because he isn't changing. I am heartbroken. If I let him back into my life I will forfeit by character and my dignity, but DAMN I LOVE HIM! DAMN I MISS HIM!!

I don't know why I still want him to be my husband.

[This message edited by torn2bits at 8:17 PM, February 2nd (Wednesday)]


Me: 44/WH (SA): 49
M: 24 years 3 kids over 10 yrs old
EA/ PA Dec. 2009 -Divorce pending

Posts: 1240 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: Midwest
unicornsearcher
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Member # 912
Cool  Posted: 9:48 PM, February 2nd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

http://weeksmd.com/?p=2884

Love & the broken heart

It’s already known that oxytocin exposure brings greater heart health — but researchers have just found that oxytocin infusion reduces cell deaths in an injured heart & reduces certain inflammatory factors that can slow healing.

Other than going into labor, the number one means of acquiring the neuropeptide oxytocin, is through skin-to-skin contact with another human being — simple touch & closeness.

Contact with animals has some beneficial effect as well.

Oxytocin has a powerful effect on infants, but brings greater bonding & mental & physical health for everyone.

The neuropeptide oxytocin, released by your pituitary gland, is a naturally occurring hormone in your body with incredibly powerful, health-giving properties.

Oxytocin & Human Bonding

Oxytocin has long been associated with matters of the heart. It has been called the “pair bonding” and “cuddle” hormone for its effect on stable monogamous relationships. ...

Oxytocin is released by both men & women during sexual intercourse, & even having a meal with other people can elevate the levels of this hormone in your body.

The Love Hormone

Only 3% of all the species of mammals are able to form lasting monogamous relationships.

Fortunately, humans are among that 3%.

So are prairie voles. And these small, highly sociable animals have been a focus of scientific research into the nature of love.

Prairie voles bond for life after a short mating period. Once bonded, they do everything together & show no interest in other potential mates. The male becomes protective of the female, & both sexes are affectionate, attentive parents.

Contrast the prairie voles with their very close cousin, the montane vole.

The montane vole has no interest in bonding & engages in sex with multiple partners throughout life. The difference between these two vole species, which are otherwise 99% alike?

Receptors for the “love” hormone oxytocin & its pal, vasopressin.

Research indicates the location of receptors for oxytocin & another similar hormone, vasopressin, makes all the difference when it comes to long term social bonding & monogamy.

The more of these receptors you have in areas of your brain associated with reward & reinforcement, the more likely you are to fall in love & remain monogamous.

The Three Stages of Love

According to Helen Fisher, a researcher at Rutgers University & author of “Why We Love: The Nature and Chemistry of Romantic Love,” there are three stages of love — lust, attraction, & attachment.

Each stage is marked by the hormones which drive your feelings & behavior.

... Oxytocin is released by both sexes during orgasm & steadily deepens the feelings of attachment and closeness.

This stage features the bonding which is necessary for a long-term relationship.

The Power Also to Heal

The more oxytocin your pituitary gland releases, the better able you are to handle life’s stressors.

Research into oxytocin has revealed its far-reaching health benefits. The key mechanism seems to be the hormone’s ability to counteract stress.

Oxytocin decreases the level of stress hormones (primarily cortisol) your body manufactures & lowers your blood pressure response to anxiety-producing events.

Oxytocin quite likely plays a role in

why pet owners heal more quickly from illness,

why couples live longer than singles, &

why support groups work for people with addictions & chronic diseases.

Oxytocin has also been found to reduce the cravings of drug & alcohol addiction, as well as for sweets.

There is an elegant logic to emerging science like the study linked above which suggests oxytocin has the power to not only keep your heart in good shape, but also to heal it from damage by reducing cell death & inflammation.

Scientists have also tested the healing effect of oxytocin on skin wounds in hamsters. Wounds on animals that were living with a sibling healed almost twice as quickly as those on isolated animals, & the paired hamsters also produced lower amounts of cortisol.

Say No to Synthetic Oxytocin

Under no circumstance should you consider using a synthetic form of oxytocin (brand names include Pitocin, Syntocinon, as well as generic oxytocin).

Synthetic hormones can seriously damage your health.

However, like most areas of life, there are occasional exceptions to nearly every recommendation. An exception here might be during childbirth when labor is not progressing naturally, & with the understanding that synthetic oxytocin is not without risks to both mother & baby.

Are You Isolated from Friends & Family?

If you’re not currently in a life situation conducive to producing enough of your own oxytocin on a regular basis, the good news is there are some alternatives you can use to help you deal in a healthy way with your emotional response to stress & anxiety.

With the already known & still-to-emerge health & quality of life benefits to be derived from the natural release of oxytocin in your body, your best course of action is to make sure you’re cultivating warm, loving, intimate relationships, no matter what stage of life you’re in.

Additionally, if you have a pet, just a few minutes petting your dog or cat can promote the release of your body’s “happiness” hormones, including oxytocin.

Since touch anywhere on your body, as well as positive interactions & psychological support are known to increase oxytocin levels, you might also consider:

Holding hands

Kissing & hugging

Giving & receiving a backrub

Nurturing others

Getting a massage

Practicing mind-body therapies like breathing exercises & yoga

It is another marvel of the human mind-body connection that intimacy can protect us from disease.

Conversely, a lack of intimacy can bring on a wide range of health problems.


11/02 Busted WH 4+ cheating yrs, 11/06 Busted [Month Long Lustfest]. 2/1/08 admits false version of betrayals, so no full disclosure / "whole truth" yet. '09 Together, great work in progress. '12 Still gladly united.

Posts: 14209 | Registered: Jan 2003 | From: Calif
unicornsearcher
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Member # 912
Cool  Posted: 10:32 PM, February 2nd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LuckyCat posted this in general that I thought should be shared here too:

When I came across information on situational attraction, it really helped me view things from a different perspective.

One of the most compelling theories is the "mere exposure effect":

"People who are in close proximity to us are more physically attractive to us than those who are not in close proximity.

Research shows that merely being in the same general vicinity as another person can increase our over all liking for that person.

The longer that two people are in close proximity, the greater the chance that they will end up liking each other. This classic principle is called the “mere exposure” effect (15,16).

A phenomenon such as mere exposure effect suggests that people come to hold more positive attitudes toward familiar stimuli than toward novel, unfamiliar ones (Baumeister & Bushman, 2008).

This propinquity effect has also been found to play a critical role in eliciting attraction between people. Studies have found that when participants were repeatedly presented with faces of different individuals, participants rated faces they saw more frequently as more attractive (Peskin & Newell, 2004; Rhodes et al., 2001).

An additional study found that after repeated exposure to faces, subjects regarded familiar faces as similar to themselves, suggesting a direct link between familiarity & perceived similarity (Moreland & Zajonc, 1982).

The effect of propinquity also has been shown to override context.

When a stimulus is presented, even if the context is negative, frequency of stimulus exposure enhanced its liking, which again implies that exposure is a strong factor in attraction (Saegert et al., 1973)."

Situational Stress (this may explain why so many Affairs occur in the workplace, in addition to proximity/exposure):

"People with whom we have experienced something emotional or physically arousing are often perceived as more attractive than they were before such an experience (3).

For instance, if you have just had a really deep “heart-to-heart” with someone, that person may seem more physically attractive to you than before the conversation.

On a more dramatic level, imagine enduring a traumatic situation with someone. As the hours go by, you start to find the other person increasingly physically attractive.

This is due not only to the familiarity that results from being next to that person, but also the emotional energy that is created by the situation.

More importantly, you come to interpret the physical arousal caused by the situation as a sign that you are actually physically (sexually) attracted to that person – for instance

My heart was racing when I was in the room with her. I guess that means I actually find her attractive.” "

"Individuals who are experiencing anxious arousal, such as before a dental exam or prior to crossing a high, scary bridge, often respond more positively to friendly & attractive people than they do at other times (Foster et al. 1998).

For example, men who were induced to feel depressed by watching sad movies were particularly attracted to women who appeared warm & supportive, even if the women were not particularly beautiful."

None of this excuses an Affair, but it does help me see that certain environmental factors induce physiological responses which may be misinterpreted as "meaningful connections."


11/02 Busted WH 4+ cheating yrs, 11/06 Busted [Month Long Lustfest]. 2/1/08 admits false version of betrayals, so no full disclosure / "whole truth" yet. '09 Together, great work in progress. '12 Still gladly united.

Posts: 14209 | Registered: Jan 2003 | From: Calif
Tal
♀ Member
Member # 3300
Default  Posted: 11:16 AM, February 3rd (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In reality, SA is an intimacy / attachment / bonding disorder. It can make a healthy relationship feel extremely uncomfortable or even unbearable to them. They just can't explain why when they may want to be loving & loved, they do things that guarantee they will be alone & lonely instead. It takes a lot of help & soul searching to reverse that dynamic since its roots are deep in their subconscious & often, in their abuse / trauma history.

Well that explains alot.


Posts: 2145 | Registered: Jan 2004
Tal
♀ Member
Member # 3300
Default  Posted: 11:24 AM, February 3rd (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You know, I have to fight the urge sometimes to want to feel like the "odd man out". It sounds as though most of the people here have partners who are in recovery. The same is true in the COSA group I have been going to.

I hit an Al-anon meeting last week and listened to several people who are in recovery dispite the fact that they are still living with active addiction. That's where I am right now & it inspired me to be reminded that recovery for us is possible even in that scenario.


Posts: 2145 | Registered: Jan 2004
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