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User Topic: Long Term Affair... Part 18
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 3:45 PM, June 19th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

i read this in the wayward a little while ago and thought it was an amazing perspective and could be used by all...i loved it, the message is awesome:


At the root of all growth, we find change. Allow it to work for you not against.

Transformation is a universal constant that affects our lives from the moment we are born until we leave earthly existence behind. At the root of all growth, we find change. Occasionally, change and the circumstances leading up to it are a source of extraordinary joy, but more often than not they provoke feelings of discomfort, fear, or pain. Though many changes are unavoidable, we should not believe that we are subject to the whims of an unpredictable universe. It is our response to those circumstances that will dictate the nature of our experiences. At the heart of every transformation, no matter how chaotic, there is substance. When we no longer resist change and instead regard it as an opportunity to grow, we find that we are far from helpless in the face of it.

Our role as masters of our own destinies is cemented when we choose to make change work in our favor. Yet before we can truly internalize this power, we must accept that we cannot hide from the changes taking place all around us. Existence as we know it will come to an end at one or more points in our lives, making way for some new and perhaps unexpected mode of being. This transformation will take place whether or not we want it to, and so it is up to us to decide whether we will open our eyes to the blessings hidden amidst disorder or close ourselves off from opportunities hiding behind obstacles.

To make change work for you, look constructively at your situation and ask yourself how you can benefit from the transformation that has taken place. As threatening as change can seem, it is often a sign that a new era of your life has begun. If you reevaluate your plans and goals in the days or weeks following a major change, you will discover that you can adapt your ambition to the circumstances before you and even capitalize on these changes. Optimism, enthusiasm, and flexibility will aid you greatly here, as there is nothing to be gained by dwelling on what might have been. Change can hurt in the short term but, if you are willing to embrace it proactively, its lasting impact will nearly always be physically, spiritually, and intellectually transformative.


and on that note, here it goes ats:

first: the money:

i would keep the joint account with just enough money that would be your fww's allowance...all other monies into an account in your name only, in trust for your fww....so that means is that you control all the money for the bills, she has her allowance and no access to any other monies which means if she gives the money away, she is broke, and that is hers to bear, without you to bail her out...

if she cannot control her spending like with credit cards...cut them up, or if she uses her credit cards to get cash back, cut them up..its a really hard line to take, and i don't know how far you want to take it, but the basic message is, you no longer trust her with the finances with the children and she is no longer having access to bail them out of sich with the money that is meant for other purposes...

second: your son, the 18 year old, he needs to step up and fix his mess on his own...if he fails to step up then his mess remains...anything he asks you to do, well you would have to weigh each item he brings to you for fixing, he needs to be specific in what he asks you to do, he must ask not demand, he must say please, he must say thankyou or the next time there won't be any help...and ats it will be really tough to do, but the next time you will have to stick to your guns..or he will soon realize that you do not mean anything of what you say...

number one rule with all:

say what you mean, and mean what you say....you must never deviate....so be careful with your words...empty threats not only do not work but they slowly deteriorate any respect....

you really need to command respect from all....and the first step with this one, is to respect yourself...and that means you need to follow your beliefs on everything and not your feelings, and not your fww's feelings, thoughts or ideas..

third: most important one of all...you must insist on ic and mc for your wife...this is not a choice, it is a requirement....there is no reason for you to do this all by yourself...she either complies or you have your answer on what you should do...

think really long and hard on these suggestions, because if you cannot follow through, they will not only be a waste of time, but would further put you into the category of no respect, making you more of a pushover...

i know it all seems really hard ass, thats because it is....

and if you take none of this, which i can understand, it is after all a really hard, super hard stance....take this only

say what you mean and mean what you say at all times....


ats you need to set up boundaries for yourself pertaining to all those around you...and i think mc and ic can help you with this a great deal...

and for the rest of the kids, yours, hers and shared.....set up boundaries that you stick to even if she breaks them, that will be on her, not you...they will virtually be sneaking behind your back, which they already apparently do....and if you could this much where the money is concerned, it will give you much more of a stance towards mutual respect...

and respect is a 2 way street with all people...if they don't give it, they don't get it...

the biggest rule of life:

do unto others as you would have then do unto you....use it, live it....and when they do to you, you give it right back within reason of course...but there is usually nothing like a taste of ones medicine to cure what ails....but of course this is not something that can be done in every sich...or we would all being having ra's.. ...although

o.k. i gotta go for now, my manchild needs some mommy love...he is sick today, has been for 3 days now...fever, puking and poopin...not a pretty picture...

i will check in again later...


(((ats)))

and i know i can be a real hard ass....my grandma dubbed me gestapo mom once...it stuck...


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 8:43 PM, June 19th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Miracle: thank you for that post. It's something that I will have to read and reread.

I hope your DS feels better. My DS 15 sprained his ankle and is on crutches. Summer has officially begun! Oh, the Joys of Boys!!

I would like to get back to everyone when I can.

{{{tribe}}}}}


Posts: 1897 | Registered: Jan 2010
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 11:27 PM, June 19th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hey honest: the one who sprained his ankle, is this the same child with stitches too?!?!?! ...and yes, the joys of summer..


pfm got a bit of a wake up call tonite i think...i had asked my youngest, scrawny boy if he wanted to play a game, dd went up to her room as did manchild....and he said yes, when he started to set the game up i asked him if he asked daddy, he said no, and not to..he didnt want to include his dad...so i put a small guilt trip on the kid, telling him that tomorrow is fathers day, and that this would hurt his feelings...a part of me just wants to go to pfm...but the mom who needs to teach her kids the right thing instead did the minor guilt trip thing..he still said no...so i told him that he would have to tell him...so when pfm asked about playing when he saw the game all set up, scrawny boy caved...afterwards i told pfm what happened earlier...he still is so not getting what he needs to get...we ended up having another convo concerning him the kids and his so - called statements of him believing he is a totally changed man who "gets it"..and he still wants me to fess up what i found which i will not do...and he really seems so lost on this point...which means that he does this crap without realizing it at all....which is sooooo not a good thing...it means that it aint gonna change...it seems to be a compulsion...a new kind of ocd... ...

on another note, happy dad's day to our men here on the lta...tryn, dip and ats...i hope you all have an amazing dad's day...


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
Lost Heart2
♀ Member
Member # 21793
Default  Posted: 1:31 AM, June 20th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She did not make another MC/IC appointment until she knows what I want to do re: our M. I asked what she wanted, and she said that depends on me.


How dare she blackmail you like that, Ats? And I do see it as blackmail.
This is how it works:
She goes to IC and fixes whatever led her to make those stupid selfish choices of which I am sure the LTA was but one. As you begin to notice the genuine changes (bearing in mind that this can take some time but you should notice a diff in attitude pretty quickly)you will begin to feel on safer ground. Therafter, after seeing what she is capable of and the work she has done, THEN you will make your decision.
Which may to stay in the M or not.
Irrespective of your decision, IC will reaps benefits in other ways for eg to be a better mum.

Methinks she really didnt like what her IC said and is therefore looking for a way out. If you dont commit to the M, then she is asking what would be point of IC. But then how can you commit to the M, when you havent seen the positive changes you need to see (which is only poss through IC)?

And ditto all what Miracle said.

***
FnF,
The unknown future...
Yep, that runs chills down this organised-needstoknow everything-before-it-happens-hates-suprises body too.

Its v diff for me to live in the moment, and to trust that no matter what happens, the kids and I will be ok.

I see that trait in my DD and just yesterday was chatting to her about it (she worries herself about things that may or may not happen in the future). Talk about glass houses

Still it helped me see the futility of it. However, as you know from our previous discussions re this, having a exit plan does make me feel more secure.

***

Happy Fathers Day to our wonderful dads here!!!

And remember:
Fatherhood is pretending the present you love most is soap-on-a-rope.
by: Bill Cosby


LTA BS

Dday#1 02.06.06
Dday#2 28.11.06


Mind what you love. Mind how you are loved.


Posts: 471 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: London, UK
nofun
♀ Member
Member # 24546
Default  Posted: 7:02 AM, June 20th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Happy Father's Day ats, tryn and olddip....

I've been reading everyone's posts...so much I can relate to.

I've been struggling the last couple of weeks. I'm wondering if this is all worth it...I don't even think I like FWH. But I like my "life" with him. Does that even make sense?


BS (me) 56
WH 61
M 36 yrs
OW - 55 - Howdy Doody Look Alike
3 Awesome Adult C
DD 6/7/09
LTA 12 years.
Confused: D or R???

Posts: 987 | Registered: Jun 2009
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 9:29 AM, June 20th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for the FD wishes everyone I got up this morning and started to reflect on the last year and how my family has shown their love and respect for me....

OTOH, younger son is up this morning with me to get the smoker going. We have breasts and butts in the smoker this morning. I injected the breasts and let them marinade, younger son rubbed the butt for me.

iwantamiracle, I hope manchild is feeling better.

--Ats


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3961 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 11:45 AM, June 20th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We have breasts and butts in the smoker this morning. I injected the breasts and let them marinade, younger son rubbed the butt for me.

my kids would say this just sounds so wrong...


enjoy them butss and breasts ats...


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 3:03 PM, June 20th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Well, back from my mini-getaway with the H.

Happy Father's Day to all -
I hope you are enjoying the day - it is gorgeous here in New York.

Let's see, where to start, where to start...

Honest: First - thank you for your reassuring words about my importance to my children. I know my kids need me, I was just stressed out & nothing was going right, etc.
I am little confused about your decision to maintain the "status quo", but admittedly, I did read everyone's posts very quickly because I can only stay on SI while he is on a very brief errand - so maybe I missed a few important detials - so I see the point of saying status quo in the sense of not proceeding with any legal action til you are prepared, but I think it's important to keep firm boundaries with him & continue to distance yourself emotionally from him - I don't him to be able to suck you back into all this drama.

Oops - my daughter is not allowing me to stay on SI any longer - I have a lot to say - I'll try to check in later.


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 6:50 PM, June 20th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tryn: the concept of living with a prosthetic resonates with me.

My H & I were away for the weekend - just the 2 of us - we had a great time - I did get sad at points - he asked what was wrong, but I decided to keep it to myself since we were both under the influence & I was trying to stay positive for the weekend. I can't tie it to any particular trigger - I just got very sad at points for no apparent reason other than the fact that I had been drinking (and drinking, and drinking...). I actually cried a little bit in the bathroom while we were out (a quick cry at that as there was quite the line for the ladies' room).
Anyway - I came to a number of realizations. First, I love my husband, but I continue to keep him at arm's length. Forgive - I was surprised & quite frankly a little upset to hear that you also feel guarded - I was kind of hoping that this would fade in time... I really can't think of anything my H could do for me to be less guarded.
And, the second realization is that I do not believe I can forgive him. For me, I need to be able to understand his actions & almost put myself in his shoes & see how given all of the variables - that it's possible that he could still be the person I love & trusted despite his decision to have the A. And, I guess this is where the LTA folks are separated from the rest of the BS. It's just hard to find a way to believe that someone who led a double life for so long is not, quite frankly, a complete lying, manipulative heartless selfish piece of shit.
I believe this 100%, yet I plan on staying with my husband. I am knowingly accepting less because there's enough that's good about the relationship to make me stay, but it doesn't make me feel good about myself.

Miracle: I find that if I expect my husband to be as attentive/involved as I am with the kids I quickly get frustrated. No disrespect to the Dads out there - but I think especially as a stay at home mom - when every waking moment of your life is focused on the kids - you see things differently - what the kids need is so automatic for you - I don't know if the same kind of thing applies to the Dads.
No disrespect to the Dads - I really just think this is a gender thing. I think my H is a great Dad - but I admit it does annoy me when he doesn't even seem to be aware that the kids are talking to him, etc.
And - I realize I only have the tip of the iceberg as far as your history with PFM goes, but I will also say that my H seriously has forgotten things about the A - that would be pointless to lie about. It took me awhile to believe it because, again , I think this is a gender thing, but I would remember if I took my birthday off & spent the day with OW, I would remember if I purchased a present for ow, etc. But, I firmly believe my H when he says he didn't remember - maybe they just do so much lying they can't remember a goddam thing. Who knows - I'm just saying...

Ats: Hope you enjoyed your day. I'm curious to see your response to everyone's advice & to get an update.

Dip: I love the visual of you up to your ass in alligators.

All I got for now - talk to y'all tomorrow.


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
nofun
♀ Member
Member # 24546
Default  Posted: 8:16 PM, June 20th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I do not believe I can forgive him.

I know I will NEVER forgive him.

It's just hard to find a way to believe that someone who led a double life for so long is not, quite frankly, a complete lying, manipulative heartless selfish piece of shit.

I am married to this piece of shit, yet I stay! It doesn't make sense to me...

And I honestly don't love my FWH...I think I like my life and don't want things to change. I can live in the same home with him, yet keep an arms length, keep my distance and still enjoy my life as long as he is not controling or manipulating.


BS (me) 56
WH 61
M 36 yrs
OW - 55 - Howdy Doody Look Alike
3 Awesome Adult C
DD 6/7/09
LTA 12 years.
Confused: D or R???

Posts: 987 | Registered: Jun 2009
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 11:20 PM, June 20th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

allgood: i am glad that in between your weepy moments you had a great time....

and i so understand those weepy moments...those moments that could have been, should have been so different that what they now are, and even what they were all during...(for me, though, thats always.. ) i for one am trying really hard to focus on the here and now in my life, and as much as i am not looking for reconcilliation, i am looking for living with peace, living without the pain and hurt that seems to permeate out of every spore of my being...oh and lets not forget the anger ...i gots plenty of that too... .....but still i try with much determination to eliminate the negativity...i am far far from there yet, but i am workin it...adn i know someday i will be there, and i look forward to it...i look forward to it...for so long i have looked forward to one thing or another, always waiting for something else to pass to get to a certain point for things to be better or get better..i spent my entire marriage looking forward because living in the present with him was always so stressful...only with my kids did i live in the present tense...looking forward to their futures, but very much enjoying their present(s)...and savoring those moments because they really do pass so quickly....

anyways...i am looking forward, trying hard to look backwards, and very much living in the present, sometimes by the minute.. ...


fun: do you really believe you don't love your husband anymore?...or do you think it might be that plain of lethal flatness...? i am not sure what i wish for you either...because if you really do not love the man anymore, then i suppose my wish for you would be to move on to find some peace...but i think you ought to wait just a bit to make sure it really is dead (the love, i mean)...because if it s not dead, moving on is something that will only serve to hurt some more, you have way too much unfinished business....

unfinished business...trying to also come to terms that pfm is useless to me in resolving the unfinished business...although i guess since i know all i really need to know about the man, there really is no unfinished business so to speak...the past details then wouldn't matter...they are just snow...whereas the bulk of who he is completely known to me now...and that really is the heart of the matter after all.....

don't mind my ramblins, apparantly i feel the urge to work out what i feel and see in my head here...so sorry guys..but i need to keep going, i guess this would be similar to automatic writing that ihave read about..where the words just flow out as you go...

oops i interrupted the flow...oh well....if the urge comes back i will be back....

dip, tryn and ats i hope your day went better then well....and most of all i hope you 3 had some peace within...


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 1:38 AM, June 21st (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Happy Father's Day, a little belated, perhaps.

Ats: Sounds like you guys are having a good time! Butts and breasts! <sigh> I'm glad you were able to get away for a night on the boat. I love the water too. Whenever I felt upset, I always went to look at the water and it made me feel better, even if it was the East River when I lived in Queens. I was lucky, I always lived near enough to some body of water, a river, lake, ocean, bay to be able to go there and relax.

Nofun: Hang in there. You may be so filled with anger, that you don't feel any love for your WH and that's completely understandable. The only thing I could advise to you is that if you can try to focus on you, and to try to build SOME KIND of relationship with WH to make your co-existence work better. As I've come to realize, my old marriage is OVER. It's gone, and I'm mourning it. I was willing to try to build some kind of new relationship with WH. Perhaps, that's what you should focus on, if you are planning to stay with him because of ALL the other aspects in your life.

Allgood: I'm glad that you had a fairly decent time with WH. I totally understand about feeling down and upset and you can't figure out why. Those feelings just crop up out of nowhere and sometimes we just have to acknowledge it for a minute and say, OK, I'll deal with you at a later date and I'm going to enjoy myself NOW. This may sound like a ramble, but here goes: FOR ME, sometimes if I'm having a good time, sometimes I feel guilty about it, or I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. Also, I think, that since a lot of us were content/happy with our lives pre dday (yes, a lot of us felt there was a down but it was "normal" in the ups and downs of marriage) we wondered why we didn't know. So if everything is going ok, maybe our subconsciously we tell ourselves the last time we let our guard down, see what happenened? I don't know if this is making any sense.
I also agree with you that a LTA does separate our WS's from the "run of the mill" WS. Leading a double life for so long??? Like it was a natural thing to do??? It's hard to wrap our heads around it.
As for forgiveness, the only thing I could suggest is to have it in the back of your head that MAYBE someday you can forgive him FOR YOUR SAKE. This is a process. It took me years to forgive my father (long story) and my xWH. Many years. I worked toward it for MY SAKE so I didn't harbor those evil and angry feelings.It was NOT something I gave to them. My xWH has no idea that I have finally forgiven him!!
Allgood, what I mean about keeping the "status quo" is not seeking a legal divorce right now, for many many reasons that are logically sound (yes they are lol) for the time being. I do have to get my ducks in a row more (they are wandering around right now ) and you are absolutely right, what I am working on is trying to emotionally distance myself from him and I'm finding it extremely hard.

Lostheart: I truly understand about the "unknown future". We all know we cannot control what will happen, but we try to prepare as much as possible. It's nice to have a plan. And because of the A, the plans that we thought we had have all changed. We all need an exit plan.

Miracle: I have also tried to be a "good mother" in terms of my older sons with my xWH. Try to remember, you are doing it for your children. For years and years I always encouraged older DS's to see their father, always told them their father was a good man, with a lot of good qualities. When they were angry at xWH, I always reminded them that xWH loved them and although he may not love them the way they wanted, didn't mean that he didn't love them with all the love he could give.
I DID NOT do this for xWH!!! My parents are divorced and I know how much I loved my father, even though I thought he was a POS for leaving me and my mother, but I still loved him! I could put him down (in my thoughts) but it hurt like hell if anyone said anything bad about him!
So, in the long run after many tough years, it worked out for older DS's, They know and feel that thier father loves them with the best of his ability (I really believe this too). Today, for Father's Day, they both took him to the Yankees game....DS's are happy and feel loved. That's what's important.
Today, I visited my mother. My father died 9 years ago around this time of the year. I told my mother that I visited her today because for many years she had to be BOTH mother and father to me. I will never forget, and neither will your children, Miracle.

I pray, that you, too can come to some peace. I understand that you feel that pfm will never "get it" and that there is so much you are seeing clearly now. I hope that you too can find a way to build some kind of relationship,whatever that may be that will work for you now. I know you are in a lot of pain. You are trying to heal and I feel are still finding it difficult.
I know what you feel your conditions are to fully R and pfm is not meeting that. Perhaps, you can think of what conditions you will accept to be "family" again? What I mean by that, is that I know that family can do some pretty bad things to each other, and yet still are family. KWIM? With xWH, he wouldn't tell me ANY reasons why he wanted to leave. NOTHING. But after he left, I told him in tears that I knew I had to give him up as a husband, a lover, a partner and a friend, but I had trouble giving him up as "family" (we knew each other since I was 15 and he 17). It's the only time he cried and hugged me and said, "You don't have to." I never bothered him with anything after that, but I KNEW in my heart that if I was ever stuck, and I called, he would come....because I knew, that he knew ..that I would call him as a last resort. KWIM? ....

Ok, enough ramble.

I'm trying to focus on something Helen Keller said. We sometimes focus on the door that closed so much, we don't notice the door that has opened. I am trying so hard to do that.

I don't want the triggers anymore. I trying so very hard to focus on the here and now, but the past imposes itself so strongly. Today, on the way home from my mother's (doing errands and what not for her) DS 11 suggests that we stop off at the beach for a while. Sitting at the beach, I was just enjoying the moment, but unbidden comes the image of the beach house overseas. Right on the water. How I decorated that master bedroom with all these white curtains that would blow in the breeze. How WH always said it was MY house, etc (all his damn charm) and knowing that OW is in MY bed, sleeping there under those white curtains and the bed and bedspread I picked out.

It's not like WH left and OW is NOW with MY stuff. She has been with my stuff ALL these years at the same time as me.....
As my IC always says, "and you want WH BECAUSE???????"

It's just not WS as most of you have pointed out, it was a lifestyle, it's the family, the kids.... It's starting over completely,...getting a job that I gave up because of him, giving up so much I've worked for.....
Sorry, this is turing into a vent.


I hope everyone has had a nice weekend. I better get to bed.

(((((tribe))))


Posts: 1897 | Registered: Jan 2010
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 5:56 AM, June 21st (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((honest)) I have no idea what to say to you. I just don't.

I think soon I will post the whole gory story and let y'all 2 X 4 me. I love miracle's advice to decide from your beliefs not your feelings.

Nofun -- lifestyle is a big thing. It just is. It's not wrong for that to be a consideration.

Allgood -- It's like we're twins separated by just a little space...and the fact that we've never met.

As for being guarded -- don't rush it. I keep saying to myself, you can't heal what you won't feel. And, yes, as far as the LTA and the lying go, I would have to agree. When WH is being charming and people are telling me what a great guy he is ... I just remind myself (and sometimes even them!) that he's a wolf in sheep's clothing. But I'm not afraid of the Big Bad Wolf, especially not now that I have ice water running through my veins. And I thought I was cool before.

But, Allgood, it was your statement about knowingly accepting less that made me feel all soul-matey to you for a moment. When WH and I went to see his IC, his IC asked me what I thought it was that made wives stay with the "Bill Clintons" of the world (Bill Clinton?! What the F else has he done that he hasn't owned up to? Jessh, but I digress.) Anyway, I had no real answer at the time, but for the last 5 months I've thought of that question over and over and all I can come up with is this: They knowingly accept a relstionship that is less than they deserve because it confers on them certain benefits that would be difficult to obtain elsewhere.

I'm just trying to figure out what those benefits are and whether or not they're really so difficult to obtain elsewhere.

As for acting from your beliefs: perhaps that is the key for me -- you can't save everybody: but as a Catholic I did promise God to do my best to get one man, my WH, to heaven.

Well, anyway, I've got a lot to do. Still muddling through. Still on the verge of a breakthrough.

WH's family visited over the weekend -- I was filling his sister in on some of our friends (another couple we're close to had a baby girl late-May (Paddy's first baby-girl-friend!)) and WH's sister asked about OW and her kids and husband and I simply said "we haven't seen them in a long time." WH was kind enough to ask me if I was OK afterwards. And I was. Indifference is the goal, right?

Sadly, the indifference extends to WH as well to some extent. I've cried so much over him in the last 8 months -- it's like I cried every tear I was allotted to cry for him for this lifetime all at once. Now, I'm just cold.


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 7:16 AM, June 21st (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Dip, Tryn & Ats - a belated Happy Father's Day to you all. I sure hope those grills were cooking up a storm and that you all enjoyed lots of love and attention. You sure do deserve that!

and he still wants me to fess up what i found which i will not do...and he really seems so lost on this point...which means that he does this crap without realizing it at all....

Miracle - I've always wondered why you've held out on this. I know you must have a very good reason but I was just wondering if you think it is possible that pfm really doesn't remember. I know, believe me I do, how frustrating it is when they tell us they don't remember something that to us is monumental but I have come to believe that they really can erase multiple details of their LTA's and put it in the past so much easier than we will ever be able to do.

Forgive - I was surprised & quite frankly a little upset to hear that you also feel guarded - I was kind of hoping that this would fade in time... I really can't think of anything my H could do for me to be less guarded.

Allgood - I'm so sorry if this has upset you. I really don't know what to say. I can only tell you that part of the reason for this is because my H has cheated on me and his first wife. It's like he didn't learn from his first D and went on to make the same mistake in our M. When I first met my H he was so down. His D seemed to really devastate him. I immediately felt the need to comfort and mother him and quickly feel in love. It took months before I began to see him come out of his depression over his D. He would repeatedly tell me that he had failed. It seemed that idea of having failed as a H was totally unacceptable to him. As a result, I believed he would never want to "fail" again at M, especially since this time, he would have children. He did not have children with his first wife.
Then, complicating it even more, it was the extent of the A he had during our M. As our MC said, "it was 8 fucking years." That's a very long time to lead a double life and because his office partner told me that it was probably closer to 12 years, and because my H refuses to acknowledge more than 8, I guess I still find it hard to believe him.
Finally, and I think this is true for many of our LTA S's, he is (or has been) a consummate liar. I have watched him lie boldface to so many people over the years of our M and have been astounded by how easily the lies fall from his lips.
I don't know how many years your H has betrayed you. I don't know if he is also a very good liar or if he has a past history of cheating. If none of these is true of your H, then please don't feel that you will be like me, still unable to trust him for my own sanity.
There are many here whose S's A's have been longer than the 8 or 12 years of my H and I do believe that the longer our S has engaged in a double life, the longer, if ever, our inability to trust will last.
On a positive note, there are times when I do believe my H will never cheat on me again and maybe not for the best reasons but nonetheless, they do help. He knows that he would lose the love and respect of our children and this would hurt him beyond anything I could do to him.
He has seen me broken and I know it killed him to see me like this. He has cried and begged and promised me that he would never hurt me like this again. I do believe this for the most part. It's just that there will always be a piece of me that keeps up my guard. It just makes good sense to me. I can live with that.

And I honestly don't love my FWH...I think I like my life and don't want things to change.

NoFun - If it helps, I felt this exact way for the first 2 to 3 years after d-day. It took me a long time to let myself risk loving my H again. I don't think I ever stopped loving him but I built up a wall so that any loving feelings for him couldn't penetrate into my daily life. My IC told me it was my "protector self" that needed to guard my heart from more pain. Eventually, I was able to break down my wall, bit by bit and truly I feel so much happier. It's so unsatisfying living our M lives without love, IMHO, but I do believe it is a necessary phase so that we can have some protection while we heal. I also believe it buys us time so that we can be sure that we are safe from further pain. Only time will prove our S's commitment to us. There's been some talk about boats and boating. Think of it like a fishing line. Little by little we let out more of our warmth and affection and when we get a "hit" such as a sarcastic remark or a cold shoulder, we reel in our emotions a little tighter. It's not until they truly get it and make consistent efforts to repair the damage that we can let out more and more of the love we once felt.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 7:22 AM, June 21st (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Mornin.

Honest and M3: you both made similar statements:

Honest said:

Also, I think, that since a lot of us were content/happy with our lives pre dday (yes, a lot of us felt there was a down but it was "normal" in the ups and downs of marriage) we wondered why we didn't know. So if everything is going ok, maybe our subconsciously we tell ourselves the last time we let our guard down, see what happenened?

and M3 (a/k/a my twin sister)said:

When WH is being charming and people are telling me what a great guy he is ... I just remind myself (and sometimes even them!) that he's a wolf in sheep's clothing.

This is something that has been eating at me for awhile, but I didn't appreciate how large a problem this is until recently.
My H & I had a great time this weekend and overall, he's been great and yet I haven't been allowing myself to get too close to him because all I keep thinking is that we had these kind of moments during the A (not very often - but I attributed that to a lot of things) and look at what he was really doing. Same thing in the first few weeks after DDay - between the shock & the fact that I actually had some hope for us (in large part due to the fact that I believed the watered down version of the A my H told me)we were doing pretty well and now I know that while he was telling me he "loved me, blah, blah, never do it again, blah blah blah" "no I haven't been in contact with her, blah, blah, blah" he was on the phone with multiple times thoughout the day, every day for weeks.

So, yes - this is a tough sell. And, it makes it hard to enjoy anything because he is a sheep in wolves' clothing. Makes me feel like a fool honestly.

Thing is my H will acknowledge this sad reality. So, there is not point in discussing this with him as he will only say that's why he doesn't think it's going to work out & I assume the next conclusion he would make would be to state that there is nothing that can be done to change that so why try.

And, I guess it's the fact that he's trying that makes me stay despite the bleak circumstances - because if he is doing well now, I don't want to allow my fear to break up my family. While I would like to have an ideal relationship - someone who really loves me & would not betray me- I can live with what I have.
BUT, I will not wear a wedding ring & I will not say that I am committed to our marriage. We can live together & stay together for however long we like - no promises.
Sad.


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 7:37 AM, June 21st (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Forgive: we cross-posted.
First off, YOU didn't upset me, of course, it's just I like to see people such as yourselves move past this. I can totally understand why you still feel this way and I agree that it does just make good sense. (I am a very logical, practical person by nature - so I COMPLETELY AGREE, that's why I'm so tormented because my heart is making decisions that fly in the face of reason.)

Anyway - my H's affair was not as long as yours. But, my H has been very artfuly in dodging certain questions - like how long they were "just friends" before the A started. (My H doesn't comprehend the EA concept - for him an A is sex, pure & simple - well maybe not so pure...).
Anyhoo - had sex (I assume) once, then I turn up pregnant almost immediately after that (gotta love that ow suggested I might be having an A to my H. F'n biatch..). He takes 4 months to think about his actions (or not think about them) and when OW breaks up with her SO & I am 5 months pregnant with our 4th child & we are in the middle of adding a $110k addition to our home he decides to take OW as his girlfriend for 14 months until I discovered it.
So - aside from all of the other reasons to be disgusted by his behavior- I am particularly disgusted by his ability to START an F'n affair while we were building our life together by waiting for our daughter, builing our home, etc.
Why do all of this if you are unhappy? Why not say - hey- something has to change - I have a lot invested here. But, no, his reactions is "hey - my life is pretty tough - I deserve to have some fun".
That's why I've told him I have serious reservations about his ability to be in it for the long haul - both in terms of my personal recovery, our recovery as a couple, his issues & the many, many challenges we will face as our kids become teenagers, etc.
His answer?: nothing. Says nothing.

Argh. Just frustrating.


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 7:41 AM, June 21st (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

what I am working on is trying to emotionally distance myself from him and I'm finding it extremely hard.

Honest - I think one of the most peculiar parts of our healing process is that the very person who has devastated us is the one most able to comfort us as we grieve. This is what I have found to be so true for myself anyway. On my worst days, I would allow my H to comfort me, to hold me for hours on end, to reassure me, to promise me that he would never again hurt me like this, to make love to me, and so on and so on. It seems almost ridiculous that the person who hurt me so deeply was the one whose comfort I would seek on my worst days but that is exactly what I would do. I wanted so much to believe that I was loved by the person to whom I gave my heart, and needed him to convince me somehow that this was true. On those nights and days when I was completely broken, having him hold me for hours on end, staying with me, not rushing me through my grief, helped me to feel his love, no matter how incomplete it may have been.
So, Honest, it is no surprise to me that you are struggling with this. You need to be comforted. You need to know that you are loved. You need to know that the person who broke your heart really does care for you and you need him to prove this to you. I understand so completely.
What is so unfortunate for you is the reality of this other life. This is where you must take care of yourself. I wish I knew the answer for you. Perhaps over time with C'ing you may be able to break the emotional hold your H has on you. I guess I also want to say that you shouldn't put any more pressure on yourself than you feel capable of. All of this takes time. I do love the advice of LostHeart on this. She has always encouraged us (and most recently you) to learn to love ourselves and to nurture ourselves. This period while your H is overseas, is an opportunity for you to both distance yourself emotionally from him and to nurture yourself so that you can build up the strength you will need for his return. Perhaps your IC can give you some helpful steps that you can work on during this time. Try not to focus on him. Try to take advantage of this time to think only of yourself and your children and take every opportunity of your alone time to love and nurture yourself.
((((((Honest)))))))


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 8:03 AM, June 21st (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am particularly disgusted by his ability to START an F'n affair while we were building our life together by waiting for our daughter, builing our home, etc.

I guess what I immediately thought of was the concept of compartmentalization. I never could really understand this, how people can do this, but your description of your H's affair sounds like a classic example of compartmentalization. I think most of our S's who have had LTA's are guilty of this. Maybe it's the only way they could live with themselves and not feel completely disgusted by their behavior.
It also reminded me of an experience I had during my H's LTA. I was in Atlanta with my sister on a tour of CNN and we were attending a lecture by an author who wrote a book about "why A's are good for marriages."
Of course, I had no idea my H was having an A so my sister and I were having a grand old time ridiculing this woman's logic. Now I wonder if this isn't what a lot of our S's were thinking. Here's some of the bullshit logic this woman was spewing. "I'm not happy with (fill in whatever aspect they may have been feeling) so I'll get it from the OP and then I can be happy in my M. I won't seek it from my S but still I'll be able to get it elsewhere and we can all be happy. My S won't be bothered by a need she/he won't be able to fill and I won't have to be denied of a need that I desire." This was the basic concept of her book. I don't remember the author or the title of her book but since d-day I have often thought of her words and wondered if this what my H was thinking. In fact, my H did say some things to me that sounded very similar. I can go into details but it really isn't necessary. I think you get the idea. Of course, I will share them with you if you want examples .
So in my mind, it is part compartmentalization and part rationalization. And I do believe that in their twisted way of thinking they were letting us off the hook for something they told themselves we weren't able or willing to do for them and so they were justified in carrying on an A.
BTW, the OW's comment to your H about you probably having an A , just makes me want to find out who she is and beat the crap out of her for you. These bitches are unbelievable.

[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 8:08 AM, June 21st (Monday)]


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 8:51 AM, June 21st (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Forgive: Thank you for the insight about compartmentalizing - that does help understand a bit. And, thank you for your offer to beat the crap out of ow . While I prefer to handle this myself, I would love some back up just in case I break my hand or something... Lol.
And, if you liked that, you will LOVE this: she also said to my H that she doesn't want to do anything that would make our M worse!!!!!!! And, the only thing more offensive/absurd than this statement is my H's statement that this is why I should believe OW will not pursue him any further - see she's a good person like that...


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 8:56 AM, June 21st (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Good Morning All,

Over the weekend, I re-read No More Mr. Niceguy. One statement in the book that caught my attention the first read, and again this weekend.

Because they don't know why a healthy or independent person would want them, they settle for a diamond in the rough. They tend to pick partners who have had troubled childhoods, are sexual abuse survivors, have had a string of bad relationships, are depressed, are having money problems, are overweight, or are struggling single moms. Then they go to work operating from a covert contract — fixing, caretaking, and pleasing — all with the hope that she will turn out to be a polished gem.

This is a very accurate description of me 20 years ago. In fact, during counseling when asked when I first felt I loved FWW I would describe when I realized I could be of help to her. She was a single mother struggling financially and with her xh after her divorce, a childlike fun outlook, but not well organized. Reading the many posts of their struggles by other BS, I wonder if this isn’t a common tendency of us as a group. Unsure of our own self-worth and value, we pick for a partner someone with flaws, hoping that we can polish them up. At this point in my life, I feel much more confident of myself, and I am tired of being a rock polisher. I want to hang out with the other gems.

allgoodnamesgone,

I did get sad at points - he asked what was wrong, but I decided to keep it to myself since we were both under the influence & I was trying to stay positive for the weekend.

I understand this sentiment. FWW can tell when I am upset, but will not initiate exploring it. If I do not say anything she withdrawals a bit, but if I bring it up I can tell she is upset that I could not just “Hold myself together “ while we are trying to have a good time, or have company.

…H is a great Dad - but I admit it does annoy me when he doesn't even seem to be aware that the kids are talking to him…

I have trouble understanding a great Dad who is not aware of the kids talking to him, although FWW is like this at times, just tunes them out.

Nofun,

I can live in the same home with him, yet keep an arms length, keep my distance and still enjoy my life as long as he is not controling or manipulating.

I do not know that I can do this; at some point, a relationship with someone would be nice. Maybe if my kids were younger that would be a better option for me, but at 14 and 18 they are or are becoming independent.

honesttoafault,

…what conditions you will accept to be "family" again?

I like this suggestion you posed to iwantamiracle . Maybe instead of trying to see FWW as a W, I should just focus on what I need from her to be a friend or roommate, and then decide if that is enough.

Father’s Day was not much of an event for me yesterday, but at least it was an honest one. DS14 fixed me breakfast of biscuits and eggs with some of the red sauce we made the day before. My folks wished me a happy father’s day when I called them to wish my father the same. FWW baked me a cake, I ate some, but really did not want the calories. FWW and DS14 bought me a beer mug and a 6-pack of micro-brewed beers. The turkey breasts and pork butt DS14 and I smoked came out great. DS18 was out of the house all day.

I have been focusing on myself. The last few days have been very much like before dday, each of us leading our own lives. Over the weekend, especially Sunday, FWW was on the computer and getting together all of the forms and materials that DS18 needs for school. She did this while he was out hanging with friends.

It really feels like we will continue to drift back into our separate lives unless I again step-up to take the lead organizing MC, scheduling time together, and asking her for what I want. From my perspective, FWW is putting more effort into controlling her weight (working WW, reading books) than into fixing us. Thursday it will be a month since we had sex. She has been sick, tired, company, etc. With her knowing that touch and sex are my primary love language, it would seem like this could be a higher priority for her. I have found the time to work on the projects as service, which is her primary love language.

I really think that by the first week or so of July I will have seen enough to know that I am ready to go. At worst will be 4 - 5 years of bankruptcy, DS18 will have to figure out college on his own, I will have a place to live for free and lick my wounds for 4 years while DS14 finishes high school. Part of it just may be that the A’s are more than I can forgive, part of it may be there was never enough substance in the M to begin with, part of it may be that with the blinders off I realize I want more from a M partner than FWW is willing to provide.

Then I read posts by forgivenotforget and wonder if I should just suck it up, lean forward and begin trudging forward until 2, 3, 4 more years have gone by and see if it is fixed. FWW’s plan (never prepared for, just discussed with everyone but me), was to leave me after DS18’s graduation. Maybe I should set my goal to leave after DS14’s graduation in 2014 if I am still unhappy then. Certainly, our M now is no worse than it ever was, and it is certainly better than the last 4 – 5 years were.

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 9:35 AM, June 21st (Monday)]


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

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