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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 5
OnceInALifetime
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Member # 26023
Default  Posted: 7:32 PM, September 2nd (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Right on, Wincing.


BH, now divorced

Posts: 3012 | Registered: Oct 2009
teedoff
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Member # 29152
Default  Posted: 7:43 PM, September 2nd (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And when they don't express remorse because they have made it out to be your fault from the beginning (blameshifting) then find the door as quickly as possible.

Kids are amazingly resillient and they will learn the truth about which parent was stable, sane and mature. It is not our job to fix the world, just ourselves.


Me: 39

STBXW: 37

3 daughters: 12, 10 and 6

This sucks, but I deserve better. To my future significant other, trust is the best quality you can have. Period.


Posts: 104 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Mid Atlantic
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 7:46 PM, September 2nd (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I found a journal entry in a random pad of paper on my desk at work today where I was working out this exact topic.

One of the conclusions I reached at the time (about a year after D-day) was that the problem with consequence-based remorse was that it only held as long as she wasn't pissed off at me. As soon as I stopped walking on eggshells and living to remain in her good graces, then I was safe...but if her remorse didn't become about her actions instead of the consequences, the moment I pissed her off (and make no mistake, we'll always piss them off eventually ), affair behaviors would become an attractive escape again.

She felt bad for cheating on me only as long as she didn't feel like I deserved it. If I did anything to change that opinion -- say the wrong thing, be moody, forget to take out the trash, whatever -- then I'd deserve it again.

That's why remorse has to go deeper, why it has to be about actions rather than consequences.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
thyme2go
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Member # 12908
Default  Posted: 1:12 AM, September 3rd (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Kids are amazingly resillient and they will learn the truth about which parent was stable, sane and mature. It is not our job to fix the world, just ourselves.

True, dat. I have custody of my 14yo DD because she wanted to live with me. She said her mom was never home (always out partying), there was not any food in the house and that she was basically raising herself.

Me? I am always home when not at work, riding my bicycle or at the grocery store.

WAL - I never say a drop of remorse. The only time she was upset/feeling bad was when I caught her and confronted her on Dday. Her rage built from the day forward as she dove deeper into the A. I think you are exactly right on the money with your line of thinking.


-t2g


BH - no longer 48
3 DD's - (27, 24 and 17)
Divorced on 8/6/09

Posts: 9145 | Registered: Dec 2006 | From: Eastern Washington
FatherofFour
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Member # 24263
Default  Posted: 6:21 AM, September 3rd (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

t2g, I am beginning to wonder if we are not alternate universe clones of each other like in the old Star Treks.

I too have never seen a bit of remorse. D-day there was anger. And it's only built from there. In therapy while we were "reconciling" she gave me two "sorry if I hurt yous" but that was it, and neither was even approaching sincere.

As far as the kids, I've stuggled with this. When we decided to divorce, I wanted her to be the petitioner. To me that mattered, I wanted the kids to know she drove this decision. But she wouldn't do it. I needn't have worried. My kids are figuring things out already and they're 10 and under.


Posts: 2767 | Registered: Jun 2009 | From: MN
lostcause111
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Member # 19109
Default  Posted: 8:17 AM, September 3rd (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I had 3 weeks of remorse. Than pursuit of OM began again after d-day. Evidently I didnt get over her LTA quick enough LOL.

To me the main difference between somebody who gets it and somebody who does not is this.

Somebody who gets it will say something out of the blue with regard to it and apologize without prompting.

I can get my wife to apologize if I am all hurt and mad but if I just act normal it is as if nothing happened.

I have two examples of this. My counselour was cheated on. 10 years later her WH said I want to thank you for everything and I am sorry for the pain I caused. Without you I would not have this beatiful family and kids and I owe you my life.

I went to a retrouville weekend and the one guy cheated and was talking about it about 10 years later. he cried his damn brains out speaking of it.

Those people get it. My WW is a fool to think that I still dont hurt over this.

The difference is some care about you. Some dont.

And when your spouse does not care the kids see this and know this. They see how easily the confront you or shut you down and they have no BS that we gain in adulthood in their mind. My kids and they are just in school now can see right through my WW BS and cut her down. They know she is not right.

In the end I do not even know the point of my post but in a way I feel like I am fucked. I am never going to get what I need to really R. I am thankful for now the kids being with me other than that their is nothing I even want from my WW anymore but to leave me alone.


Posts: 934 | Registered: Apr 2008
HurtingandLost
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Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 9:16 AM, September 3rd (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

One thing Wincing, Lostcause, teedoff, T2g, and FoF, all of you make me wonder about -

1) are we indeed married to the same fucking woman (seriously, we should compare birth certificates sometime)
2) Am I any less selfish at the moment for the following feelings - I am giving her enough rope to hang herself with on the R. Meaning I truly dont think she really gets it yet, and if I never broke down again for the rest of our lives I truly dont think she would ever mention it again. And for me, being here almost 8 weeks after the fact is strange, becuase regardless of how much I do truly love this woman, I dont know that I will ever make it past this point. Not to say that I hate her or dont forgive her, that part is just in my nature.

But Cheating. Its a line that I cannot fathom crossing myself. And if I am clear in the beginning of a relationship, and do all of things in my life to show dedication to myself, my wife, and our family, and she still chooses to stray, what am I really saying to myself. That my personal value system doesnt matter? Morals dont matter?

I realize I do have high standards. I work my ass off and I'm always riding my wifes ass to get off hers and help out. Pisses her off becuase "she needs to relax", "she's tired", etc...I bust my ass working full time, going to school full time, cooking, cleaning, laundry etc....

But She's sorry. She Loves me. She wishes she could take it back becuase none of this was worth it. She doesnt want a divorce. Where in any of this does what I want matter?

I wanted my wife. I wanted someone to share my life with, good and bad. I wanted someone who I could put my faith and trust in. I wanted someone who was going to stand by my side, and help me when everything on my shoulders got too heavy for me to carry forward. What I got instead was a selfish, self centered, lazy cry baby who says she's sorry. WTF


holding out hope
UPDATE: Hope's Dead

Posts: 430 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: CO
HurtingandLost
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Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 10:05 AM, September 3rd (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My ramblings all amount to one thing:

How much of our souls are we supposed to sacrifice for love? In the end, is it ever worth it?

Although my ex wife and my wife are indeed two separate people, with their own unique issues, I am having a hard time separating the two.

To this day, I dont trust my ex wife as far as I can pick her fat ass up and throw her. But she still denies ever cheating too, so that plays a part. And she still lives in her own fantasy land, and has even cheated on the guy she's with. And the character assasination and lies she told everyone about me then and still today dont help.

My WW confessed to affair. I told her family, and a couple of my friends, and she hasnt gone off the deep end with lies about me or told the kids any crazy stories (they're WAAY too young to get anything anyways).

So yes, the dynamics are different, but the acts are indeed the same.

I am going completely fucking nutts with all of this.


holding out hope
UPDATE: Hope's Dead

Posts: 430 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: CO
Razor
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Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 10:10 AM, September 3rd (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I wanted my wife. I wanted someone to share my life with, good and bad. I wanted someone who I could put my faith and trust in. I wanted someone who was going to stand by my side, and help me when everything on my shoulders got too heavy for me to carry forward. What I got instead was a selfish, self centered, lazy cry baby who says she's sorry. WTF

I wanted this also. This is what I thought M was.

Sadly this is what life has given us. I oftimes wonder if all women are the same. May be not. I hope not. Probably not. Evidence here at SI shows that there are some out there capable of this sort of union. But in me terrible moments I still wonder. Or may be it is that we are drawn to women such as these? And what if we D and move on to another relationship? Will we be drawn to these same sorts of flawed women?

Or are all people flawed? May be we and all the other BS here didnt cheat just because we didnt have the opportunity? But I had opportunities and I allways turned away. Why did I do that? What is it that makes some turn away from cheating and others not?

So anyway. Who we are with is women that cheated. They had the time of they life. And now. Many blame us. Many still lie to us. Many still hold secrets of they A dear to they hearts. And now they all whimper *I am sorry* words at us thinking that will make it all better.

Beautiful tear filled batting eyes have melted our hearts before have they not? Gentlemen we are all fools.

And you know. Our WW will NEVER get it. They will never really grasp even the remotest concept of the pain they have inflicted and the dreams they have shattered and the future destroyed and the utter destruction to our core.

You know. The 1 single thing I got out of MC. They were all idiots and cheaters they selfs but thats another story. One of the MC referred to the impact of cheating to a BS as a *narcissistic wound*. A wound to our core self. That single term was all I got out of all those other wise pointless MC and IC sessions.

O well lads. Lets all have a good day and a good week end shall we?

Razor


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3087 | Registered: Sep 2007
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 10:26 AM, September 3rd (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In all fairness, I do want to point out that at this point, I have no doubt that my wife has gotten it.

When she became ready to start dealing with it and what it meant, it absolutely shredded her. She acquired the action based remorse I discussed above.

When I was newer to this process, it really pissed me off that she didn't get it and didn't help me heal the way I needed. It was outrageous to me that she had done all of these horrible things and I was left to clean up the mess on my own.

But you know what? At this point, I'm glad it happened that way, that we healed and processed on our own completely separate tracks. I needed to be able to look at myself when the healing was done and be able to say, "I did this. I did it alone. I recovered my life, my hope, my future and my dreams."

I dreamed new dreams to replace the old. I changed life philosophies to factor in this new information about betrayal. But I came out of it whole and fundamentally the same.

But it was me who did that work. I can take pride in that. No one else rebuilt me. I did it.

My wife says the same sort of thing, having realized that if I'd let her, she would have swept everything under the rug and never dealt with her underlying issues. She would have let me carry her.

Instead, I abandoned her to her own devices, and that turned out to be the best thing for both of us.

Let me tell you something: I've cried exactly two times about her affair, and both of those were within a month of D-day. My wife will cry to this day when something even vaguely affair-related comes on the television. Hell, she processes her A and her actions so much now, it annoys *me* sometimes. Sometimes I just want to tell her that it's in the past and she needs to get over it.

That's irony, there. And I think that's what true remorse looks like. As much as I wished it had been there when I thought I needed it, I'm glad it wasn't. It made me rely on me for my healing, and by the time she was able to really get it on a gut-deep level, I was well enough that I could appreciate it as a gift rather than a minimum expectation for keeping me in her life.

True remorse is a powerful thing. It will change your world.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
64fleet
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Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 10:29 AM, September 3rd (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I wanted my wife. I wanted someone to share my life with, good and bad. I wanted someone who I could put my faith and trust in. I wanted someone who was going to stand by my side, and help me when everything on my shoulders got too heavy for me to carry forward.

Weren't we all stupid to actually believe we had this?

I see my little girl read these princess stories/coloring books/movies about the knight in shining armor or the prince saving the princess & them living happily ever after and I wonder what she is learning.

and I realize now that I had the same sort of delusional thoughts about marriage... we were a "team", us against the world etc etc

I felt she felt the same way I felt, or we would not have married.

[This message edited by 64fleet at 10:45 AM, September 3rd (Friday)]


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5360 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
StrengthIsInMe
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Member # 29443
Default  Posted: 2:23 PM, September 3rd (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I wanted my wife. I wanted someone to share my life with, good and bad. I wanted someone who I could put my faith and trust in. I wanted someone who was going to stand by my side, and help me when everything on my shoulders got too heavy for me to carry forward.

I think every good man wants this. I guess what we have to ask is whether we ever had it before the A and if we are making our way back to that now.

I think back to when I first got married and I feel like my wife and I were on the same track. I also think back to the time of the A and I can see now how different she was. But now she has that chance to be everything I want her to be again. We have to work on the present and future and leave the past behind. I feel like I am getting my wife back and it feels incredible. So just keep looking to the future my friends and keep working on making your marriage everything you both want it to be.

[This message edited by StrengthIsInMe at 2:24 PM, September 3rd (Friday)]


BH: Me - 30
WW: Her - 28
DDay: August 16, 2010

Posts: 27 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: South Carolina
HurtingandLost
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Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 2:34 PM, September 3rd (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

StrengthisinMe -

I'm glad things are looking up on your end.

On mine however, when I look at my marriage from day one, I have always carried this marriage and every responsibility associated with it on my back.

So, no, I cannot look back prior to my WW's affair and hope things will go back to the way they were. I have told her this too. Her selfish bulshit cannot continue.

I told her the balls in her court to effect positive change. I realize it wont happen over night, but I'm not going to be sitting in this shithole situation forever....


holding out hope
UPDATE: Hope's Dead

Posts: 430 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: CO
OnceInALifetime
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Default  Posted: 5:00 PM, September 3rd (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

True remorse is a powerful thing. It will change your world.

I would add that an aspect of true remorse is that your WW would let you divorce her without putting you through a massive guilt trip. In fact, I would think that a truly remorseful WW would *expect* that you would want to divorce her, and she would make the separation as easy and painless as possible (and not ask for the moon in the settlement).


BH, now divorced

Posts: 3012 | Registered: Oct 2009
jasper
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Member # 28168
Default  Posted: 11:00 PM, September 4th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Mine has actually promised this. We'll see if it happens when I finally file. We're going to D, but I still haven't begun proceedings (due to inertia and finances). Does everyone else just have the liquid cash available to pay for a divorce? I make a pretty decent salary, but every cent of it goes somewhere (mortgage, taxes, 401k, DD's college fund). Should I pull back for a few months and just do it?

Posts: 696 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: New York
HurtingandLost
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Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 11:41 PM, September 4th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jasper -

Although I am still hanging onto hope for R, I am planning D.

I am in the same boat, I make a decent amount of money but between rent, mortgage, 2nd mortgage, daycare, 401k,child support, etc, money's tight.

I came up with a way to siphon money off to the side in case things dont work out in my situation. Sounds like you and your wife are already on the same page with D, so there's nothing to feel bad about with re-prioritizing finances and setting yourself free.


holding out hope
UPDATE: Hope's Dead

Posts: 430 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: CO
HurtingandLost
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Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 11:58 PM, September 4th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Question for the group -

Over the past couple of months I've come to value the perspectives and opinions that I've come across on the various threads. Insight now would be appreciated from those of you further in the process than I am.

I read a couple of wincings threads a couple of days ago and they hit home on a multitude of levels. I shared some thoughts with the WW last night and tonight and although I can't say she really gets it yet I can see the wheels in her head turning.

I had asked her for a letter a week ago, requesting her to sit down and write down why she loves me, why she wants to stay married, and how she thinks this has affected me, our marriage and our family.

She's been avoiding it, but at the same time dropping verbal comments about how much she does love me and she hates to see me this way. For the first time since the A, she is asking me what she can do to help ME through this.

I finally grabbed my balls and asked some hard questions about the A, and I believe she answered them honestly. I can live with the answers if the future actions and no further alternate realities emerge.

So far, and it really didnt occur to me until reading wincings post, she is remorseful becuase of the consequences, including hurting me. I'm not sure if she's capable though of ever seeing the bigger picture of remorse becuase cheating is just downright fucking evil.

One bright light in the past two days is that I finally think she is willing to go to counseling, without berating on my part. She's finally accepted that much.

I am still on the roller coaster ranging between complete and utter depression, anger, love and hope, all simultaneously tearing at me at every minute of the day. Its getting easier to hold it together but the triggers are everywhere around me.

For her, Selfishness is part of her very nature, as much as I've downplayed it for years. But for the first time, I'm seeing her start down one of her selfish ME ME ME fucking moments, and the stop and think, and ASK ME what I think, and how I feel.

None of this rambling probably makes sense, but I'm just wondering if all of this is a normal part of this screwed up process or am I jsust reading too much into it?


holding out hope
UPDATE: Hope's Dead

Posts: 430 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: CO
jjct
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Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 1:01 AM, September 5th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm thinking a man's definition of peace is when someone's not bitchin at him.

Posts: 6030 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
jsngold
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Member # 27699
Default  Posted: 4:16 AM, September 5th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Does everyone here agree that divorce is better than limboland?

Do any dissenting voices out there think that being a long-term resident of limboland is better than being divorced?

Any stories from the trenches?


BH: 37 (me)
WW: 37 (her) SAB, EA (but not PA, or so she says)
Married: 12.5 years
Kids: 12, 9, and 7
D-Day: 7 Feb 2010
Divorced: 22 July 2012

Posts: 101 | Registered: Feb 2010
played-a-fool
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Member # 29476
Default  Posted: 8:09 AM, September 5th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I hadn't stopped to think about what was motivating my WW's remorse. I was just encouraged to see remorse of any kind. You see, in my WW's case, the pain and disgust of herself for what she had done was too much to deal with so she seemed cold and heartless to me after her disclosure. Now, after nearly 8 mos she is showing remorse but why? Is she just sorry because seeing my hurt as a result of her actions painful for her? Or is she truly remorseful for the pain she has caused without regard for how she's being affected? When I type it out it seems like a small difference but to me it's huge. I wonder if like someone else said if I never mentioned my pain again would she ever talk about it again herself? Now that I think about it this awakening she seemed to have the other night only resulted in her not seeming so cold. It has not resulted in her coming to me unsolicited and showing me her true remorse. Sure, when I mention it she shows it but I think it would mean so much if she just took my face in her hands, looked me straight in the eye, and allowed me to see just how sorry she is for hurting me and how disgusted she is with herself for ever allowing herself to do something so horrible. How do I know how she really feels if she doesn't show me on her own? I have told her that I have decided to move on with or without her and that if she wants to go with me there are some things she must do, and I have even told what those things are but I won't tell her again. I will not beg her anymore. I am claiming back my manhood and it feels pretty darn good. Anyone else feel this way?


Me - BH
Her - FWW
Trying to R

Trust is difficult to earn but so very easy to lose. It's a gift that should be treasured and guarded.


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