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User Topic: For Those Who Found Out Years Later
Dallas2
♀ Member
Member # 28362
Default  Posted: 1:56 PM, October 20th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oldernotwiser-

Just read your last line about Ws having an AP that he knew it wouldn't last. Boy did that hit me like a ton of bricks. My H's A was while I had already moved to our new location. she wasn't going anywhere. I think my needing to return to sell our house helped it end sooner than later.

Do you all get told they thought they were protecting you by not telling you? Mine did and I really think it is more about self preservation than the BS.

I think it's hard when you find our years later but I think being that the WS was military makes it harder. At least for me it does. I was so proud of all he did in the service and how he handled himself with many difficult situations and then I found out his secret. It is so hard to respect him after I know what he did.

hopeful2013- I also got a lot of don't remembers. I think being a women we remember different details thatn a man would. Sorry for the sexist remark but that's my opinion. I finally began to be glad he doesn't remember(I hope he is telling me the truth), she wasn't that important to him.


Me

Posts: 828 | Registered: Apr 2010
Oldernotwiser
♀ Member
Member # 36408
Default  Posted: 8:34 AM, October 21st (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Dallas, We actually talked about that very thing last night, my H never did end his affairs, he actually opened a PO box with the 2nd AP because he didn't want her to realize what he was doing & thought she wouldn't get him in trouble if he led her on a while longer after she moved. BTW, she told me, he said, "O yes, I did that,I had forgot " when I confronted him. He still claims he was "protecting" me.
He didn't want to ruin the marriage! I am struggling with the question of do you give another chance, & another...
He told me he thinks it should be easier finding out so much after, that way you can leave it in the past. He says he never thought how I felt or dealt with his walking out on me, just figured I understood him & would always be there no mater what stupid thing he did. Also follows that with- I was feeling mad & frustrated that you wanted help w/ house, kids and I didn't want you telling me what to do. He did not talk to me but, did tell AP ALL about how awful I was. After that one I asked him if he did that, he said yes because I wanted her to feel sorry that I was so mistreated and then she would get into the affair. Later she said she realized & felt bad she participated.
Thinking about recovery, can you recover alone & stay in the marriage? He thinks the recovery stuff is BS, you just make up your mind and it is fixed. Thoughts????last night I read him the piece on helping your BS recover


Me BS 54
WH 55
Married 34 years
2 grown sons
2 PA ? EA's didn't develop due to discovery

Posts: 85 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: midwest USA
doubleboggy
♂ Member
Member # 40622
Default  Posted: 8:58 AM, October 21st (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I hate to hear "just forget about all that, I'm not that person anymore, you need to start living in the present instead of wallowing in the past" I literally can feel myself getting heated when he says that. I just don't know if anything I thought was true at all.

^^^This...I could have wrote word for word. I am glad I am not the only one who feels this way. WW doesn't understand why everything for the last 20 years is in doubt. She also can't see why I have trouble trusting her. IDK, 20 years of lies!


D Day: 3/31/13

Posts: 109 | Registered: Sep 2013
flup
♂ Member
Member # 21259
Default  Posted: 12:27 AM, October 23rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

"just forget about all that, I'm not that person anymore, you need to start living in the present instead of wallowing in the past"

I got that from fWW also... "I'm not 'wallowing', I'm trying to understand the X years of my life that I thought I understood." Maybe she thinks that she's changed, but I have yet to see evidence to contradict the possibility of that.

Saying you've "changed" doesn't make the BS feel any safer. Time will tell.


Me: BS 55
Her: fWW 50

D-Day #1: 12 Aug. 2008. WW's 2nd affair w/college teacher.
D-Day #2: 18 June 2009. Affair #1 with neighbor was fall of 2002 - while I was coping with the fallout from 9/11.
Still trying to R.
22 years married


Posts: 435 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: Ohio
TarnishedSilver
♀ Member
Member # 37166
Default  Posted: 7:42 AM, October 23rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Time will tell. I did see a change after our son was born, fwh stopped drinking. But it has only been since he started IC that a process in changing communication skills has started. Fwh is working hard on communication, emotional connection and understanding the pain his actions has caused.

I feel he is moving in the right direction.


Me-BS (47)
Him-WH (48)
Married 26 years together 31
2 teenagers
Dday #1- 2/20/2011
Dday #2- 1/08/2012

Healing myself is now my top priority.


Posts: 156 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: USA
Dallas2
♀ Member
Member # 28362
Default  Posted: 9:55 AM, October 23rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oldernotwiser-

I am glad to hear your FWH is actually talking at all. For me it was and sometimes still is like pulling teeth. I just love how they protected us. With that type of protection, who needs to be attacked. My FWH also said he was protecting me. From what??? To be honest I think they were, mind you in that twisted mind they had. Think about the pain you are suffering now. As I said a poster here had said for her the memories were real and she wasn't going to let him ruin them for her. I agree with her. Once you know about an A everything changes. your point of view of you WS,(this is hard for them) yourself, and what you want fromn your M. I know I will never accept what I had before and both of us are trying to make it better and it is.

I also think self preservation is a big reason they don't tell us and I have read many WS's die with the secret. My FWH did not want to D when he actully logically thought about and he knew it would've happened so fast and furious. No question about it. Seven years later life had changes a lot for us and I wasn't quite so hasty. Actually I was I filed but after a year I withdrew the petition.

I also get upset when I think about himtelling his AP(skank) all our troubles and issues. What is worse he told her he wasn't worried about me or what would happen to me. They call this crap the "FOG". Do not let him blame you for his choosing to have an A. He has to accept 100% of the responsibility. When he does it will help you both. My FWH said it was because we were drifting apart. DUH- you were cheating and keeping secrets!!!

I do believe in recovery and a better M or I would not be here. It is hard work but it can and does happen. We are in a better place and are more in tune with each other than we have been in a long time.

He needs to get over the BS recovery. Ask him how he would feel if it had been you. Mine couldn't even handle the thought of it. In the healing library are many good articles to read for both of you. How did he do with the piece of him helping you? I think many WS just want o put it past them and move on. I hate to say it doesn't work that way. We went to counseling and I got books, tried to get him to read and IC. Basically he admitted to it, said he was sorry and would never do it again. Our MC gave me bum advice on this. She said it was in the past and I needed to let it go. DON'T LET IT GO until you are ready!!!! I apparently didn't have all the answers I needed and I rugswept. He said something that opened it all up again and we then got throught the rest of his shit. Tell him what you need from him. I wanted my FWH to read a book and set it by his side of the bed. It didn't get read and I got angry. He said he didn't know I wanted him to read it. If something is bothering you ask or tell him. Don't let it fester. I'm a real good stewer and then I explode. Not good for either of you.

If you are ready(when) tell him you are glad he stayed. I told my H finally I was angry at what he did but am glad he stayed. It took me three years before I could say it and mean it. We are doing really good I am at the point I am actually looking foward to see what is next.
You can do it!!!


Me

Posts: 828 | Registered: Apr 2010
traditoperanni
♀ Member
Member # 32660
Default  Posted: 4:11 PM, October 23rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have not posted here yet. I just didn't know which one to do first. I could reply to LTA thread or, Multiple A's, or,
spouse is a SA, etc. My wh has done it all. My story is long so I will try and make it as short and to the point. It wasl 4 years this Nov. that my life shattered. I found out that my wh was seeing escorts, etc and also having A's with different ow for what I thought was the last ten years. I found out that one of these ow was someone he is working with now but had a 4 month A with her in the late 1980s. They still work together but their are "just good friends" I found this out 4 years ago. I know her, I have had her to my house, for holidays etc. Needless to say I am having a real hard time with this. For them it is over and has been for 25 years. My wh has said it was like it never happened to him. But to me - it's like it happened yesterday. And now, I 'm trying to piece together what the hell was going on back then that I did not notice.
But that's not the worst of it.
Last year after a 2nd attempt at R (1st was a false R ) and working with WH's SA therapist and MC I was told that there
was another OW. I knew somewhat about this ow. I had found recent emails to each other and I was guessing that this A was maybe 7 years long. During a MC session I was told that this OW has been around since 1975.
1975! We were only married for a few years then. She, of course,a t that time, wanted him to D me and be with h er and he honestly said he entertained the idea for a short time but then realized that he loved me and she was a nut case.
Did he let the nut case go? NO -they saw each other off and on for the next 37 years. It was only for sex-he says.
Really? I can not get my head around this. I can read all the books about implusive and complusive behavior and sex addiction and I still can not understand how you can do this.
I keep hearing from our MC that my wh has expressed many times in his sessions that he loved me and never loved any of these ow. Maybe he loved me but he did not LOVE ME ENOUGH to stop this. And that's what hurts. He also told me that he could have told me it was only a few years and not 37 yrs and I wouldn't have known. Like I should give him a medal for his honesty.
There have been other ow that have come and gone over the years and I THINK i have been told of all of them but this
one I can't deal with.
Everytime I think back to my life there is a shadow over it. Every memory is now flawed with" what was really going on"?
I don't think I can ever forgive him for this. He is in intense therapy for the sex addiction (I don't like to call it that, because I really don't believe in it) I believe in his being a fractured human being. I believe that , yes, he suffers from
impulsive and compulsive behavior but for 37 years? This is a hard one to sell me, that's for sure.
He seems to be happier in himself since he has been able to get all this shit off his shoulders. But, now it's on my shoulders. and I resent that.


Me- BS (63)
Him-WS (63)
M- 42 yrs
dday#1 11/09, Dday #2 10/11 and many since
P.A.'s - too many to count
LTA's too many to count (one for 37 yrs)
escorts etc- way too many to count.
Broken heart- too many times to count.
R- Getting bet

Posts: 434 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
TarnishedSilver
♀ Member
Member # 37166
Default  Posted: 7:11 PM, October 23rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Trad~

So sorry you have gone through this. I am glad you found SI.
My fwh's infidelity dates back over 30 years as well.
He does feel a weight lifted and feels we have made huge progress. We have, but the pain is still very deep.

I take it a day at a time and focus now and healing myself and becoming a stronger more independent person.

Post as often as needed.


Me-BS (47)
Him-WH (48)
Married 26 years together 31
2 teenagers
Dday #1- 2/20/2011
Dday #2- 1/08/2012

Healing myself is now my top priority.


Posts: 156 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: USA
Dallas2
♀ Member
Member # 28362
Default  Posted: 10:48 AM, October 28th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just wondering if anyopne else feels that finding out years later makes reconciling harder? I also thinkk I read that the length and time laspe of discovery affect the time of recovery. Has anyone else heard that or think that it's true?

If it is true then we wouldn't be healed for another 12 years or more. Again if that's true than I wonder if it isn't a waste of time?


Me

Posts: 828 | Registered: Apr 2010
Notmetoo2011
♀ Member
Member # 32912
Default  Posted: 1:49 PM, October 28th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Trad
Like you I could post on many of the forums here. LTA, spouses of SA, double betrayal, multiple As. By the time I found out all the details some of the As had been over for 25, 20, 14 and 10 years. Of course others were continuing right up until DDay.

Dallas2
I don't know if it's finding out years later that makes it harder for me but rather the fact that his A's were ongoing. If I had found out on DDay that he had cheated on me 25 years previously and that was the end of it, I could probably have got over it. Finding out he cheated a month before our wedding then continued having As until D day 25 years later is killing me. Individually I could have handled any one of them, but all together I just can't seem to get past the betrayal.

Everytime I think back to my life there is a shadow over it. Every memory is now flawed with" what was really going on"?


Me-BW 49
SAWH 51
Married 27 years.
4 children
D-Day 26/07/11
Multiple PAs, ONS, Porn
In limbo land

Posts: 271 | Registered: Jul 2011
Oldernotwiser
♀ Member
Member # 36408
Default  Posted: 11:47 AM, October 30th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Dallas-
Yes, I did say we talk but maybe I should clarify, I talk, he steams! He has said 100's of times that what I am doing is starting an argument, not talking. I have used the I feel start to everything I try to ask or explain. It doesn't matter, within minutes he is exploding and often finishes with telling me I am either parenting him, or judging him making sure he falls short. Just this past weekend I made a decision, I am not going to "talk" about it anymore. It is distressing and I just can't handle being yelled at any longer. I always think of how he says he has changed while he is ranting and raving. I see the same intolerant stubborn and defensive person of 30 years ago. Then I allowed him to do that and beat me down, no more. I am moving on emotionally.
I have heard the line about protecting me so many times, I might have been really dumb back then but even I could see who he was protecting. It feels like he still is with the answers I get.
I know I have been stuck for a long time. I just don't care about trying to talk now, I am not sure we get anywhere, I become almost physically I'll from the attacks on me. There has never been an explaination that didn't have me causing his anger, frustration, which lead to him seeking other women out. Even the apologies end with me being the root cause of his dissatisfaction. He says he could not talk to me but he sure could to the AP. She knew all kinds of stuff I was shocked to find out. BTW her memory was much better than his about what they did together.
The latest thing he revealed was that he realizes now that he didn't end the last affair because he wanted to keep his options open with her. This after 2 years of telling me it ended on a particular weekend and he NEVER had a thought about her after that. TT that just keep wounding me.
Also wanted to say that after reading the advise to betrayer letter he said he thought it was nice but not for everyone. Then can't remember anything in it.


Me BS 54
WH 55
Married 34 years
2 grown sons
2 PA ? EA's didn't develop due to discovery

Posts: 85 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: midwest USA
WoundedOpus
♀ Member
Member # 39521
Default  Posted: 6:16 AM, October 31st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Not sure if I actually fit this category...I found out about the A as it was happening, but he claimed it was only an EA. I never believed him but he maintained this lie so well for over 5 years that even I started to question whether that was true. He confessed to it being a PA this past August, I was so devastated. I always held out hope, not so much because it being a PA is so much worse, but I needed so much to believe he wasn't that big of a lier :(

I have a question for all of you though even though I'm sure I know the answer, I just need to hear from people who have actually BTDT before I can feel comfortable with the decision I've made...I need to know that I'm doing this for the right reasons!

I never told the OBS. It has eaten at me every single day, and is my biggest shame. I was so damn messed up at the time of DDay, codependent in an abusive relationship, that I allowed myself to be convinced that keeping quiet was the right thing to do. Now, 6 years out, I am working on myself and questioning all of my previous choices. On my own, and thanks to finding SI a few months back, I believe the best thing is to let him know. I have recently found MCOW through the internet, have seen pictures of her family, and I am ashamed. They have 1 child, a boy that may not have even existed had I told her husband at the time (he is 4).

I want to make this right, be the honest person that I am in every aspect of my life, and this is the only thing that I am a lier about. I am sick that I made a choice, no matter how messed up I was at the time, to be a part of hurting another person. I am sick that essentially, I colluded with the OW and my husband to keep this terrible secret from him, to protect her, my WS and indirectly myself (since they work together this could/can cause my WH to lose his job if the OBS chooses to inform their 2 companies).

No matter what, you'd want to be told right? I believe the answer is yes, I just need to be sure that I'm not doing this for selfish reasons. That my motive isn't purely to get back at them and/or relieve my conscience! I was screwed up, manipulated and selfish to keep it from him then; I only want to be sure that I'm not now telling him for selfish reasons.

Thanks for any insight, this just sucks all the way around

[This message edited by WoundedOpus at 6:20 AM, October 31st (Thursday)]


Me: BW 37
Him: WH 38
(DDay: 2/2008)
13 years, 5 kids...Six years of Limbo

I don't want to get to the end of my life and find that I have just lived the length of it. I want to have lived the width of it as well." ~ Diane Ackerman


Posts: 178 | Registered: Jun 2013
doubleboggy
♂ Member
Member # 40622
Default  Posted: 9:05 AM, October 31st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

this just sucks all the way around

It does.


I am sick that essentially, I colluded with the OW and my husband to keep this terrible secret from him, to protect her, my WS and indirectly myself


And there you have your answer. OBS has a right to know. BTW, it's not you doing this to him, it was his WW.


D Day: 3/31/13

Posts: 109 | Registered: Sep 2013
Oldernotwiser
♀ Member
Member # 36408
Default  Posted: 9:57 AM, October 31st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wounded, wow that is tricky, I would and have wanted to do the same thing. WH first AP is now married with 4 kids, I read something about her (an interview she did for her university) and she talked about family values and love of God etc.), and I wanted to scream at her what about my family when you were screwing a married man? I said such to WH and he said- people change, she was young, she is entitled to have these views now and her spouse doesn't need to know what she did before. I started to think maybe I just wanted to hurt her now like she hurt me for 30 years. Still, a part of me would like to let her know she did not get away with it and evil me has hoped maybe she has guilt about what she did. And fear her H would ever find out. 6 years out how do you think he will react? Do you think he ever suspected? If he did I think he would want to know, if he was totally in the dark I am not so sure. Good luck what ever you choose to do.


Me BS 54
WH 55
Married 34 years
2 grown sons
2 PA ? EA's didn't develop due to discovery

Posts: 85 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: midwest USA
WoundedOpus
♀ Member
Member # 39521
Default  Posted: 10:46 AM, October 31st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oldernitwiser, I have no idea if her H ever suspected. My H shares so little about the A (read that as practically zero), that I'm really in the dark. I think, he's got to have had some clue something wasn't right. Your wife can't be practically dating another man for many months and there not be something off, some feeling that things just aren't right.

I've read how the affair staying a secret makes it more likely that the warm fuzzier stay alive and also makes it more likely that you'll do it again... If she wouldn't and has changed maybe I'd just cause problems, but maybe she hasn't and having this secret means there's a higher chance she'll cheat again. There is of course the selfish part of me that doesn't want to tell, doesn't want her to become a factor again when it took soooo much work for me to let that go.

Plus, since me being finally ready to slay this A dragon, pulling it out from under the rug and attempting to force my H to face this, he is back to many of his old abusive ways. I admit I've been scared of his reaction should I do this, it's been a huge factor in my silence. We have scheduled a meeting with a counselor, I'm thinking now is the time to do it, when I feel I should have some support in case he goes ape shit. I suppose there's always the chance he never finds out I tell the BH, but I find that unlikely. H and MCOW still talk periodically for work, their relationship isn't strained so I don't doubt she'll call him up once confronted for an explanation and to find out what I know and shared with her H.

Thanks for the replies, getting my info together and will have ready to send after Saturdays counseling. I need to make sure we plan to see her again first, so I don't feel so isolated if things go south!


Me: BW 37
Him: WH 38
(DDay: 2/2008)
13 years, 5 kids...Six years of Limbo

I don't want to get to the end of my life and find that I have just lived the length of it. I want to have lived the width of it as well." ~ Diane Ackerman


Posts: 178 | Registered: Jun 2013
Oldernotwiser
♀ Member
Member # 36408
Default  Posted: 11:51 AM, October 31st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wounded, great move on the MC. Have you thought about bringing the idea up during C? Protection for you that way. My WH really freaked out about me confronting OW, scared me with his reaction. BUT, it was in fact the very thing that finally caused some truth to come out. Not all by any means though. I live with my questions and doubts. I did not confront other OW, his reaction to me wanting to was pretty concerning too. It sounded protective of her to me, he said it was all his fault and apologized to every statement I made. He said "you will make a fool of yourself & I don't want that". So I haven't done anything except find her on internet & mentally write to her! He said the same thing about me confronting most recent inappropriate relationship. He has issues with me looking the fool I guess.
Do you think her spouse would react to you telling him well? Sometimes they are so fooled by the cheater they attack the messenger. Just another side to consider.


Me BS 54
WH 55
Married 34 years
2 grown sons
2 PA ? EA's didn't develop due to discovery

Posts: 85 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: midwest USA
Dallas2
♀ Member
Member # 28362
Default  Posted: 2:34 PM, October 31st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

wOUNDED-

I agree older that is a tricky situation. The odds are he suspected at the time and may still have questions.

To tell or not tell is always hard. I wish someone had told me at the time. Would I want someone to tell me now?? Yes!! I say tell because you know how that secret is there and you wonder what is wrong with you or your M. He may be in this boat too. There is also a 4 year old who you should consider. He is the most innocent of all victims.

I would make sure you want to tell him for his benefit and not revenge against OW. Beleive the revenge fantasies I've had would curl your toes.

If you decide to tell, talk to your WS first. This is if you are trying to R, if not it really doesn't matter what he thinks.

I say do what you feel is the right thing to do and be at peace with your choice.


Me

Posts: 828 | Registered: Apr 2010
Oldernotwiser
♀ Member
Member # 36408
Default  Posted: 7:47 PM, October 31st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

To both Wounded & Double,
I too wish someone had told me, the red flags were everywhere, he was lying up a storm and I was a mess. On the last suspected EA , I was gently warned by 3 people who work w/ H. I responded like a idiot to them & regret it to this day. He on the other hand when confronted denied & still does today that he was being inappropriate. He says it might have looked bad but he had no intention of starting an affair so he did nothing wrong. This still upsets me now.
Anyway I vote for being told as a BS!


Me BS 54
WH 55
Married 34 years
2 grown sons
2 PA ? EA's didn't develop due to discovery

Posts: 85 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: midwest USA
livebythesea
♀ Member
Member # 38900
Default  Posted: 3:03 PM, November 4th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Found out h had a ons (twice with the same person), not really sure if that is classified as a ons. Anyway, found out April 2013 that while he was in Germany working back in 1997. That is quite awhile ago, regardless, it hurts big time. The thought that he kept that from me all those years.


HIM - 56(looks older by the day)
his time has come
ME - 56 (heart aged lately)
DD1 April 5 2013 (told me a lie)
DD2 April 23 2013
DD3 June 22 2013
3 children
1 grand child

Posts: 197 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Near the ocean ... Canada
Oldernotwiser
♀ Member
Member # 36408
Default  Posted: 1:44 PM, November 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Livedbythesea, I think you are part of our little group, welcome! I am sure you never wanted to come to this party any more than the rest but by no fault of our own we are here. It is hard finding out that your spouse desired someone else, whether for one night or two one nights, it is hard trying to figure out how they allowed that to happen. Personally I feel that finding out about the deception so far out is harder, compounded by knowing this person carried their lies so long at your expense. I have looked over my married life and wondered if any of it is real, was there a time when what I thought was our life was true. I often wonder if he can so easily do something so harmful to me emotionally what else has he done? If your spouse is talking, truly openly talking, you are miles into a better place.
We have better days and worse, today for me is better. We really talked 2 days ago about a PDF I received from Affair Recovery on trust. My husband does not do any reading on recovery without lots of pushing, so I read it to him. It has 2 parts, one for each of you, my part said a lot about why you would chose to trust again, it was thought provoking. HIS part was excellent as it explained why it is so tough to just start over after such a good reason not to trust. He really seemed to get what the author was saying and we had a very civilized long discussion about 1 of the affairs. I was amazed at the difference and so encouraged I actually welcomed physical affection for the first time in months. I felt close and no need to remove myself mentally from him for it to occur. To me that is a mile in the right direction.
I wish you luck with the process, the people in this thread understand and will be there for you.


Me BS 54
WH 55
Married 34 years
2 grown sons
2 PA ? EA's didn't develop due to discovery

Posts: 85 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: midwest USA
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