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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS's IV
leftoolate
♀ Member
Member # 22658
Default  Posted: 12:11 PM, October 5th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hopelessromantic,
Hon, you can try until you're blue in the face - this is not going to make any kind of realistic sense.

I'll try the twisted kind of sense, see if that works for you.

"Hey, this is nice. I want to do this. I really shouldn't do this, though. But I really wanna. You know what, if I take the really roundabout way, it's almost as if I didn't do it. After all, I would never take any effort to do something this horrible, so if I'm making an effort, it can't be that horrible."

"Man, that was not good. That was good. That was not good. How do I fix this? How do I get some more? How do I erase this? Let's do something symbolic, see if that helps any."

"So, if I assuage my guilt by praising my wife, I'll get a free pass for the next hook up."

Or something like that. It does not make sense. It's like having six raving lunatics inside you, all trying to get their way. Compartimentalization makes sense, to me anyway. It's the only thing that worked, even if I only realized that after the fact. And even with that tactic for coping, I was not doing too well, because life just isn't right while I had an affair.

Hope you find peace.

~L.


If you came this far, you're looking for something. - Jrazz

Posts: 811 | Registered: Jan 2009 | From: Europe
leftoolate
♀ Member
Member # 22658
Default  Posted: 12:36 PM, October 5th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Icbtih8,

1. Have we been rugsweeping? I don't expect a perfect response but after 1.5 years I guess I did not expect these WS catchphrases. I kinda thought he was over that. Should we have talked more about the details?
Not rug sweeping, per se. Perhaps you progress in leaps and plateaus, like me . You needed this detail now, not last year - so you discuss it now, not last year. The catch phrases do alarm me, but they do not necessarily mean that you've been going about this the 'wrong' way. What happens when you repeat them back to him?

2. Overall is this a good thing or a bad thing? On the one hand, his excuses make me question his progress, on the other hand he did finally give me the information I requested.
No idea, really. How did he handle your requests or demands for information before? Your discussions these past months, have they dealt with trust, self awareness, responsibility at all? Does he trust you enough to let you make your own observations (and mistakes!) about your needs?

3. Could he still be hiding information because he believes it wouldn't help me or because he doesn't want to face it?
My first guess is that he doesn't want to face what he did, so he avoids telling you about it. My second guess is that it's still painful, and he wants to avoid the pain of talking about it. Subtle difference.

4. Would it help him to go back to IC or is this something that can be addressed in MC?
Either or both, if that's what he wants. What do you want?

~L.


If you came this far, you're looking for something. - Jrazz

Posts: 811 | Registered: Jan 2009 | From: Europe
icbtih8
♀ Member
Member # 23797
Default  Posted: 1:28 PM, October 5th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

thanks leftoolate.

the conversations over the last couple of months have dealt with trust, responsibility, and self awareness. i do which he was more self aware, but i can see how he is becoming more self aware each day.

we've been good at communicating lately that his comments threw me for a small tailspin. i imagined i would encounter some resistance but not like this. it eerily felt like we were back to a couple of months after dday.


D-day #1 - April 29, 2009

Beauty is a calling...a call "to transfigure what has harden or was wounded within you"
-- John O'Donohue


Posts: 5424 | Registered: Apr 2009
leftoolate
♀ Member
Member # 22658
Default  Posted: 2:59 PM, October 5th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

icbtih8, I'm sorry, hon. I'm almost out of ideas.

we've been good at communicating lately that his comments threw me for a small tailspin. i imagined i would encounter some resistance but not like this. it eerily felt like we were back to a couple of months after dday.
That is not a good feeling... Perhaps he just wasn't paying attention. For me, the vigilance is the hardest part of change - but as soon a I let my guard down, chances are I'll screw up within the week. My new attitude just isn't wholly part of me.

What did he say when you spoke to him of this weird setback?

~L.


If you came this far, you're looking for something. - Jrazz

Posts: 811 | Registered: Jan 2009 | From: Europe
hopelessromantic
♀ Member
Member # 25415
Default  Posted: 5:54 PM, October 5th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

leftoolate - THANK YOU for your attempt.

I know you're right when you say:

this is not going to make any kind of realistic sense

But I guess I was hoping that it made sense to someone who's "been there".

I don't know maybe I was hoping that *my* thoughts were right in that the reasons were that deep down he really WAS thinking about me thru it all, missing me during it all. Is that a silly thought to have? I suppose so, just wishing some of the actions made more sense because they really don't make sense on the A side of it to *me* anyway.

ETA: so do I just need to let these nagging thoughts go even though they bug the hell out of me? (PS, if you haven't figured it out, I'm an analyzer )

[This message edited by hopelessromantic at 7:00 PM, October 5th (Tuesday)]


BS-Me FWS-him (bigdog)
D-Day 5/3/09 TT til 6/22/09
Behind every woman scorned is a man who made her that way.

Posts: 2836 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: Midwest
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 7:22 AM, October 6th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hopelessromantic -

Is that a silly thought to have?

No, but I think you need to split it a bit. Based on his actions, the value of the M probably did enter his mind. The consequences were there, and he was trying to justify his actions by finding some sort of way to minimize them. "I was bad, but not THAT bad...".

With that said, I don't think his thoughts were likely to be that of missing you. More like wanting to find a way to minimize the damage done to you. It's a weird but not uncommon thought process.

so do I just need to let these nagging thoughts go even though they bug the hell out of me?

I don't think so. I think you should still try to talk them through with your WS. It may take several attempts, but with each conversation you should start to see a little more of your WS's "truth".


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
hopelessromantic
♀ Member
Member # 25415
Default  Posted: 7:54 AM, October 6th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks Lc - I hope the Waywards here realize how much you truly are appreciated?!

I think I know that the cold hard truth is, I wasn't part of the equation at times, and that hard truth cuts deep. Yet I struggle to understand how a person lives their whole life having boundaries, never ever give a thought to cheating until he finds himself running with a certain group of people a handful of times a year and saw how easy it was and decided to "jump on board" so to speak. It's not who he is/was, yet he went with the crowd and did it...still trying to figure out what causes a person to have such wreckless abandon when it was there for all those years?


BS-Me FWS-him (bigdog)
D-Day 5/3/09 TT til 6/22/09
Behind every woman scorned is a man who made her that way.

Posts: 2836 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: Midwest
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 11:40 AM, October 6th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hopelessromantic -

It's not who he is/was, yet he went with the crowd and did it...still trying to figure out what causes a person to have such wreckless abandon when it was there for all those years?

Your description matches my experience directly. I was the "devoted family man" for 17 years, only to toss it aside in a matter of weeks.

I can tell you a few things. First, while the A happened quickly the underlying causes of it did not. They built up over years. You have to remember that an A happens most often to counter an inner weakness in the AP. It's not about the act itself, but what it tries to fulfill for the AP.

My avoidance of conflict has evolved over decades. Thus the outer appearance that all is well while inside I was hurting.

My inability to consider myself a good person evolved over decades. Thus the impact of the lure of a comment about how nice my eyes looked or what a sweet person I was.

So when certain conditions kicked in, I fell in the trap. My work travel increased leaving me alone more frequently. My online interaction increased as I looked for social outlets, leading me to discover the xMOW. As I neglected my wife and kids, the pressure on my BW built and it was harder for her to have any energy left to be close at the end of the day.

So there were a combination of external factors and internal weaknesses that led to the "perfect storm" and I fell for it.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
hopelessromantic
♀ Member
Member # 25415
Default  Posted: 3:32 PM, October 6th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So there were a combination of external factors and internal weaknesses that led to the "perfect storm" and I fell for it.

Now this makes sense to me. Because I know the external factors in my H's situation, but thought he should be that person that *fought* those external factors. Yet learning about what was going on inside him, his feelings, what he's lived with his ex and how she treated him, I now am starting to understand the internal stuff. And your statement above helps make it come together. So are you saying it really took the two to come together for it to happen? Cuz I think that's the only conclusion I come to with my H's actions, it really did take the "perfect storm" to rise it wasn't just one thing, it was the combination all at once?

Thanks LC, hope you're having a better afternoon, I did share my thoughts on your post in Wayward.


BS-Me FWS-him (bigdog)
D-Day 5/3/09 TT til 6/22/09
Behind every woman scorned is a man who made her that way.

Posts: 2836 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: Midwest
Blindbat
♀ Member
Member # 29495
Default  Posted: 7:51 AM, October 7th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Here's one for newly NC WS's (I'm working on the assumption of NC):

Presumably going NC entails some mourning of the A and the loss of the AP by the WS - how did you handle that and how much did you show to your BS? We (think) we had a bit of a breakthrough last weekend (I still have a healthy dose of scepticism) and I believe my WH actually finally finished his affair a couple of days ago - if only going by the utter misery he has been in for the last 2 evenings (not helped by an impending major-league stressful workshop due today). Obviously it does my ego no good at all to watch his misery for another woman. And clearly it's not fair. But is it realistic for me to expect him not to be able to hide it?


Noli illegitimi carborundum
Not yet as divorced as I'd like to be :-(

Posts: 713 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: The Land of Chocolate
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 8:22 AM, October 7th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hopelessromantic -

So are you saying it really took the two to come together for it to happen?

Exactly. The underlying weakness was within me, but stayed silent until the external conditions gave the weakness a cause to show up.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 8:51 AM, October 7th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Blindbat -

how did you handle that and how much did you show to your BS?

It's not so much a matter of showing or not showing your BS how you feel from a WS perspective. It's more a matter of processing all that has happened. And it will go through phases.

In the early phase, what you're seeing is not unexpected. The brain still thinks there was a real relationship there, and grieves the loss of the relationship the same way you would if it were an authentic relationship. Your WS may show signs of missing the OP, and will trigger on things that remind him of the OW the same way you might trigger about things that remind you of the A.

But gradually in my case, I followed all of the steps of the grieving process. I denied to myself that it was an A, and even that it was exposed. I got angry that the A had ended, at myself for allowing myself to fall into the trap and at xMOW for paying no price, I bargained that if I just did IC all would be ok (it was of course far more than that), depression over the damage I caused through my actions (and yes, at the time it was sadness for the harm I caused both xMOW and my BW), and finally acceptance for what I had done - what was real and what wasn't - and what had to be done moving forward.

For me, the process evolved over about 6 months. But it's different for every WS. There's no predetermined timeline.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Blindbat
♀ Member
Member # 29495
Default  Posted: 9:28 AM, October 7th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In the early phase, what you're seeing is not unexpected. The brain still thinks there was a real relationship there, and grieves the loss of the relationship the same way you would if it were an authentic relationship.

Thank you for confirming that it's to be expected - I've heard both that it wouldn't have lasted more than "two months, three if I were lucky (!)" and that it would inevitably be a proper relationship if he weren't married. Part of me feels like a bloody doormat, but a bigger part of me knows that takes far more strength to hang on in there until I feel for myself I've explored every possibility and can face either outcome knowing I've done my best.

We both know there was a fundamental positive change between us at the weekend, but bloody hell it's hard to be in any way sympathetic and loving, especially when he's already undone a lot of the good work that was done and now I have to watch him in agony over another woman :( All I can hope is if it were me he was facing never seeing again, he'd feel about 30 times worse (16 years vs 6 months)

[This message edited by Blindbat at 9:32 AM, October 7th (Thursday)]


Noli illegitimi carborundum
Not yet as divorced as I'd like to be :-(

Posts: 713 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: The Land of Chocolate
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 9:43 AM, October 7th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

All I can hope is if it were me he was facing never seeing again, he'd feel about 30 times worse (16 years vs 6 months)

This view happens when enough separation time from the OP has occurred that thinking is clear again and not distorted based on the foggyness of the A.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Blindbat
♀ Member
Member # 29495
Default  Posted: 10:10 AM, October 7th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This view happens when enough separation time from the OP has occurred that thinking is clear again and not distorted based on the foggyness of the A.

I hope so. It's been getting to any sort of separation in the first place that's been the problem.


Noli illegitimi carborundum
Not yet as divorced as I'd like to be :-(

Posts: 713 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: The Land of Chocolate
notrightnow
♀ Member
Member # 29424
Default  Posted: 12:05 PM, October 7th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am looking for some help for my FWH. He asked me to post and see how others have dealt with his issue. He is trying to get over his feelings for OW. He has chosen to stay with us but is having difficulty letting go of her. Any advice? Does it just take time? Anyone else in this situation? I know he is petrified that I am going to give up!


Me - BS (37) ~ Him - FWH (38)
D-Day #1 7/5/10 ~ D-Day #2 1/7/11
Married - 12 years
Together - 21 years (High school sweethearts)
2 beautiful daughters (7 & 5)
I think I can say for certain that we will make it but ask me again tomorrow :)

Posts: 145 | Registered: Aug 2010
hopelessromantic
♀ Member
Member # 25415
Default  Posted: 12:27 PM, October 7th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks so much LC...I appreciate you and your time. You have helped me so much with your posts in wayward and here.


BS-Me FWS-him (bigdog)
D-Day 5/3/09 TT til 6/22/09
Behind every woman scorned is a man who made her that way.

Posts: 2836 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: Midwest
icbtih8
♀ Member
Member # 23797
Default  Posted: 12:33 PM, October 7th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What did he say when you spoke to him of this weird setback?

I haven't. I think i'm going to bring it up in MC and handle it there. Should i tell him i'm going to bring this up in MC beforehand?


D-day #1 - April 29, 2009

Beauty is a calling...a call "to transfigure what has harden or was wounded within you"
-- John O'Donohue


Posts: 5424 | Registered: Apr 2009
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 12:40 PM, October 7th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

notrightnow -

Any advice? Does it just take time?

Primarily, yes. The longer the time since NC was established, the clearer my thinking was.

How can you help? Hold him accountable to the things he will need to do to heal. NC must be strictly held. He must go to IC to face the reality of what happened (instead of the fantasy he has developed in his mind during the A). He should read books that will help him see more clearly, such as "After the Affair" and "Not Just Friends".

Keep holding his feet to the fire on these things, and he has a good shot at clearing his thinking that fantasizes about OW and sees the relationship for the train wreck it truly was.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 1:20 PM, October 7th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

icbtih8 -

Should i tell him i'm going to bring this up in MC beforehand?

You're the only one who can truly read whether it will help or harm in the end. But if this were me, I'd let him know now.

First, it continues your efforts to build on your communication process.

Second, you already know that his skills of self awareness are in their infant stage. It's not likely in an "on the spot" situation he'll be able to quickly understand what you're saying, see it in himself and respond. If he knows before the session, it gives him a chance to absorb your feedback and possibly have some better thoughts prepared.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
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