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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS's IV
brokenheart831
♀ Member
Member # 29073
Default  Posted: 10:19 AM, August 16th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just found out WH broke NC again. We had been doing very well and for the first time in along time I really thought we were going to make it. Now I am devestated. I want him to come out of the fog and stay with us. If I leave him do you think that will happen or do you think he will really be gone?

Posts: 241 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: MD/DC
darkbeast
♂ Member
Member # 19220
Default  Posted: 11:09 AM, August 16th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I tried to answer your question before it got locked (I knew it would), but then I was caught by the crash.

You have to decide what you want and he has to face consequences. You told him you wanted NC, but what did you tell him was the consequence of broken NC? Are you happy/willing to stay in a marriage where WS continues contact with OW?

You must tell him that it is you or her. NO Contact with OW. You must be willing to leave if you don't get that. You must step on his tail. If you don't mean it and/or he doesn't believe it, then he will continue to contact the OW.

Don't say:

We had been doing very well

Obviously, you THOUGHT everything was ok, but he was luring you into a sense of security.

Don't blame "the fog". He is actively continuing to lie to you.

If you leave he will either change his ways or go. If he stays, then you have something to work with. If he goes, then you have you true answer about his commitment and intentions.

You should not continue to allow yourself to twist in the wind hoping he will come around. You need to take over steering the ship of you M and your life.


I thought I wanted a career, but I discoved that I just like paychecks.

Posts: 2466 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: Florida
TICKED OFF
♀ Member
Member # 8291
Default  Posted: 5:40 PM, August 16th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

At what point in time during the evolution of an a does the ws/op make that conscience decision to become physical with each other? Does it just happen like many ws (including my own) say, or does the ws/op KNOW that it IS going to happen and allows it to?

I was just sitting here wondering at what point does it all come together? Both parties involved KNOW that it is wrong but allow it to happen anyway. What is the thinking behind it?


Posts: 2381 | Registered: Sep 2005
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 8:52 PM, August 19th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TO,

I didn't have a PA, but I've been thinking about your question and can tell you some things about my sitch.

At what point in time during the evolution of an a does the ws/op make that conscience decision to become physical with each other?
Given that there are ONS or LTA and everything in between, there is no single answer.
Does it just happen like many ws (including my own) say, or does the ws/op KNOW that it IS going to happen and allows it to?
I had an EA and didn't think about how to go PA. But, if OW would have been closer, if we would have met up more than the one time we did, I don't think I would have stopped it.
I was just sitting here wondering at what point does it all come together? Both parties involved KNOW that it is wrong but allow it to happen anyway. What is the thinking behind it?
OW and I only got semi-sexual one time via IM. She had been drinking and initiated it. We texted and IM'd for months before that night. The next day was the beginning of the end of the EA. Up until then, neither of us was thinking that anything was wrong. So maybe it all comes together at that point where both parties have justified and compartmentalized everything.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6016 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
bdotoole
♀ New Member
Member # 25213
Suspicious  Posted: 10:44 AM, August 21st (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wishing for some Male WS input here...what does it mean 2.5 yrs after dday when he responds to what do you think, feel about the OW now with "she's a nice person".....WTF ???

[This message edited by bdotoole at 10:45 AM, August 21st (Saturday)]


Posts: 25 | Registered: Aug 2009
alexa071
♂ Member
Member # 28881
Default  Posted: 11:16 AM, August 21st (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We're 3 months out from D-day and my WW seems to say nice, happy things but when she says it I can hear that she doesn't really MEAN it.

She'll tell me that she loves me and she's sorry for what she has done. When she says it, however, it comes out the exact same as "I'm going to the grocery store to pick up deoderant and bananas."

Also, she was writing in her "timeline" the other day. She wrote how she felt about the most recent time she went and had sex with OM. What she wrote was that she felt guilty that she left our son (OC) with her dad while she went there and he probably wouldn't watch OC again if he knew what she was doing.

WTF? I know she wronged her family too but I would think that the first feeling of guilt that should have come to her mind would be about what she was doing to me and our marriage. I would have liked to see "I felt truly guilty for going to have sex with OM because I knew how my BH would feel about it..." or "Even though I couldn't keep myself away from OM deep down I knew what I was doing was wrong and hurtful to BH."

The fact that it isn't there really worries me... I don't think she was guilty about it and didn't care about me at all... I don't know if WW is even guilty (not to mention remorseful) now.

I was reading an e-mail between WW and OM today. She was giving updates on her pregnancy (07/2008) and told OM that she loved him. The e-mail was three days before she gave birth to OC (who we thought was mine at the time). All of this is starting to lead me to believe that she's just sticking around for my financial stability and really truly still loves OM.

I think her love for me would be much more apparent. It's not something you can fake for an extended amount of time. I worry it's catching up to her and her true feelings are starting to emerge in her apathy toward my needs.

So on to the question...

How long did it take for you WS's to "get it" and "Own your shit"? Was remorse easily found or did you play the "guilt" game for a long time?


Me: BH (32)
Her: XWW/SA/Borderline PD (Betrayer47) (32)
OC: (4)

Posts: 1042 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: MN
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 5:41 PM, August 21st (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm leaving tomorrow morning - so I'm hoping some of you have time to weigh in on this topic before then - just know you will have to wait until next week for your "Thank you".

It's the 1st anniversary of DDay next week. We will be in the same hotel, same city, with the same people. Triggers will abound, no doubt.

My H appears to be committed to R - thing are definitely better with us - but long story short, he isn't doing as much as he could. I almost want to say he's not taking it seriously. I mean he knows how deeply hurt I am, he has made changes in that he's nicer & more attentive to me & goes to IC (tho I have to admit I don't believe he's opening up there at all), but he's never been much emotional support for me, he's not very good at having serious conversations about feelings, etc. For the most part he's transparent, but he does seem to get annoyed when he catches me going thru his phone & he has been deleting texts (tho he knows I can still tell who he's communicating with via my online access - I just can't see the content of the texts.)

Anyway, I was very emotional this week, which I was able to hide from him. I told him a few days ago that I had been upset & that this whole DDay anniversary thing was probably going to be really difficult. He said he knew that. I told him he should really make sure to be really supportive - not just trying to cheer me up or let me vent - which has been his current style of supporting me. I also told him some preventive effort would probably be the best for all of us so we can just enjoy the vacation.

So the question:

What impact did the 1st anniversary of DDay have on you? Did you even know what the date was? What did you do? What did your spouse do? Any suggestions for the emotionally stunted WS?
Gracias.

[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 5:43 PM, August 21st (Saturday)]


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
getting real
♀ Member
Member # 28912
Default  Posted: 11:17 AM, August 22nd (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

At what point in time during the evolution of an a does the ws/op make that conscience decision to become physical with each other? Does it just happen like many ws (including my own) say, or does the ws/op KNOW that it IS going to happen and allows it to?

I was just sitting here wondering at what point does it all come together? Both parties involved KNOW that it is wrong but allow it to happen anyway. What is the thinking behind it?

I know that for me, it was clearly a decision. It followed a slippery slope of other bad decisions, boundary violations, and increasing levels of secrecy and deceit to BH. It most definitely did not "just happen." There was a whole boatload of gradual justification leading up to it. One thing leads to another, and every step is a choice.


Me: WW, 34 Him: BH, 34 -- StillGoing
2 kids, ages 9 and 5
1.5 year EA/PA
D-day 5/01/10

Ain't it funny how we pretend we're still a child
Softly stolen under our blanket skies
And rescue me from me and all that I believe


Posts: 184 | Registered: Jun 2010
naplesmom24
♀ Member
Member # 29272
Default  Posted: 11:40 AM, August 22nd (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Question for FWH's: Did you feel empty and numb and completely unsure if you wanted to continue? And if so, how long did it take to feel something (anything) again and what helped with that?


BS (me) 30
WH 30
Married: 5 years, together 9
Kids: 2 - 4 yrs old, 6 months
D-Day: 8/9/10
Confrontation Day (WH didn't know I knew until this day): 8/19/10
In limbo, hoping for R

Posts: 94 | Registered: Aug 2010
moreroses
♀ Member
Member # 26283
Default  Posted: 12:10 PM, August 22nd (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Since I'm not getting much response when asking aobut this elsewhere here goes. I am interested in learning did WS's here struggle with No contact issues? Was No Contact difficult? Did any break No Contact and what was the result? How long did folks struggle with No Contact? Did a point ever come where breaking no contact became an 'embarassment'? Like, did the ap think, 'I'm making a fool of myself, I should move forward, why am I doing this?' I'm just wondering about the struggle associated with No Contact and breaking it and the ap's take on it and how it affected the WS's here.Also, did any break No Contact because, they thought they 'owed' more contact to their former ap?Like maybe, their heart wasn't into it but 'I better stay in touch because I was a rat, he/she works in my office, I want to smooth over their pain', stuff like that. Thank you for your insight.

[This message edited by moreroses at 12:19 PM, August 22nd (Sunday)]


BW;Me
DDay;2-14-08 when former ow decided to enlighten me about previous A
marriage rebuilt, felt rebuilt at 2 1/2 yrs out
long marriage with 4 kids

"And the stars that we could reach were just starfish on the beach"-French folksong


Posts: 1399 | Registered: Nov 2009 | From: Northeast
romanticidiot
♂ Member
Member # 28655
Default  Posted: 9:57 PM, August 22nd (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Two sets of questions for WS, especially WWs:

1) Before DD, did your BS "know but not know" and kind of go nuts? How long did it go on? Did it affect the dynamics of the A and if so, how?

2) Did any of you end the A upon feeling the BS suspicion or end the A long before discovery? If so, how long did the fog remain? Was there ever a moment when you said all to yourself, with no confrontation, "Oh my God, what the hell am I doing/have I done?"

[This message edited by romanticidiot at 10:55 AM, August 23rd (Monday)]


"When you're going through Hell, keep going." -Churchill

Posts: 720 | Registered: May 2010
JanaGreen
♀ Member
Member # 29341
Default  Posted: 2:41 PM, August 23rd (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you WS for being so honest.

My question is - I keep seeing people say on here, there's always more than what they're telling you. Is that really always the case?

My husband (I can't bring myself to call him WH) went out of town on July 25 with a neighbor who neither of us knew very well (friend of a friend and they'd really just played golf together a few times - husband took him along to have someone to golf with). They ended up getting totally bombed and the neighbor suggested getting escorts. My husband has told me that he can't remember much of the night. He couldn't remember what exactly happened with the escort and actually called her a week later to verify what happened b/c he was worried about STDs(he told me two days later, on Aug 10). I called the service that night and they actually let me talk to her - she told me the same thing she told him - he was very out of it, unable to function sexually, and it was just a short period of oral sex that went nowhere. She also told me that my husband was very drunk and seemed shy/quiet and that the "other guy" (our neighbor) was the more aggressive of the two.

It makes sense to me that the other guy is a pro at this - he told my husband that he had no cell reception, and used his phone several times during the trip. He used my husband's phone to look up the service. The call was placed from my husband's phone (he cannot remember which of them made the call - but says it doesn't get him off the hook if neighbor made the call - he takes total responsibility). The money for the girls was from my husband's account - he says he does not remember withdrawing it. I believe the neighbor made certain that no evidence pointed back to him. He certainly hasn't told his wife and acts like nothing happened.

Since telling me, my husband has cried and cried. I walked in on him crying yesterday because he saw a snapshot from our wedding. He cried one day after he picked up our daughter from daycare b/c he saw other dads picking up their kids and he felt ashamed to be there with the "good dads" because he failed his daughter. I truly believe he's told me everything (and he freely gives me his blackberry to look through whenever I want, and he called the neighbor on the day he told me - the neighbor started apologizing to me before I cut him off by yelling at him). I really do believe that the neighbor led him into this and my husband was just too drunk/weak to say no. (not letting him off the hook - but he had a lot of help making a bad decision). However, it bothers me a LOT that he stayed in the out-of-town location for another day and night after this incident, and even went out the NEXT night and got smashed, sending me racy text messages asking for dirty pictures. Then he waited two weeks to tell me. He said that he doesn't know what he was thinking, staying there the next night, and he was scared to death to tell me - he truly thought I'd kick him out immediately and then divorce him. We're now in MC and he had his first IC session today. He says he will never drink again. He also wants to move (for some reason, our neighborhood is full of grown men who act like frat boys at a kegger pretty much on a daily basis).

I so very badly want to trust him and believe that this was just a horrible drunk decision and that there's not more "trickle truth" that I'm not getting. Am I a fool to believe him?


We're both in our 30s. One awesome 4-year-old daughter.

Posts: 6146 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Somewhere in the South
aries61
♀ Member
Member # 21109
Default  Posted: 11:15 AM, August 24th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Approaching 2 yr mark. I am feeling sad. I don't think I have healed completely and I surely have not forgiven. When I ask my WS questions now about the horrendous things he did. He just says "he was not in his right mind" Do other WS feel the same way? Can anyone explain this mind set to me. My WS was like this for 20+ years. Had he really lost his mind for all those years. He is a different person now. Ten months of therapy and hard work reconciling, but do I have to worry that he'll lose his mind again someday? I guess DDay approaching is making me alittle loopey.


Me (BS) 48
H (WS)47 (Broken)
Two girls 17 & 20
Married 21 Years
Trying to Reconcile
MC and Ic
D-day 09/08 LTA

Posts: 115 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: florida
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 2:02 PM, August 24th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

naplesmom24 -

Did you feel empty and numb and completely unsure if you wanted to continue? And if so, how long did it take to feel something (anything) again and what helped with that?

At first, yes. I was very unsure. I was so confused by the things I had convinced myself were real that weren't.

I can't say I didn't feel anything, because deep inside was a drive toward what I knew to be right and true. Even with all the deceiving I had done to myself and others, there was still a compass inside me.

It probably took until my third or fourth IC session before I finally started to regain my footing and recognize real feelings for false ones. It's a big reason I feel IC is critical in the early going for a WS. You need to fix yourself as an individual before you can try to repair your relationships with others.

Openly reading together and discussing the content in books like "After the Affair" also helped because it allowed me to be a bit more open about where my thinking was at. And completing the Emotional Needs Questionnaire form marriagebuilders.com really helped us define where we saw things the same way and where we had differences to sort through.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 2:12 PM, August 24th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

moreroses -

Was No Contact difficult?

At first, yes. Much like breaking other addictive habits like smoking or drinking, it was difficult. Something would happen that would act as a trigger - a moment when I might need the "fix" of an ego stroke from the OP. I had to remind myself of the importance of my BW and our kids to work to get through the early stages.

Did any break No Contact and what was the result?

I didn't, but xMOW did 15 months after we established NC. I immediately showed my BW the email, and then deleted it in her presence.

How long did folks struggle with No Contact?

Until the night I had visible, in-your-face evidence of the pain that contact had on my BW. I had been calling a colleague during off hours on my cell in the same city as xMOW. My BW saw the cell bill, and needed me to prove it wasn't xMOW. I was able (with some effort as my employer was changing over online phone directories) to produce the colleagues contact information for her. But the pain I saw while I pulled up what my BW needed to see was the final impact that shook me free from struggling with NC.

Did a point ever come where breaking no contact became an 'embarassment'? Like, did the ap think, 'I'm making a fool of myself, I should move forward, why am I doing this?'

While I did not break NC, my changes were less a result of thinking it was embarrassing to me and more about it causing pain to my BW.

Also, did any break No Contact because, they thought they 'owed' more contact to their former ap?

No, but I did make the horrible mistake of feeling I owed xMOW a "final goodbye" for closure. I saw her for dinner "one last time", but the reality is I still needed five months to clear my fog. Plus now I had added the impact of causing further pain and stress to my BW.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 2:17 PM, August 24th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

romanticidiot -

I'm not a WW, but I'll offer some feedback for you.

1) Before DD, did your BS "know but not know" and kind of go nuts? How long did it go on? Did it affect the dynamics of the A and if so, how?

I pretty much blindsided my BW on D-Day. She knew that we had drifted apart, and she sensed that I was less connected to her and the kids. But she chalked it up to a very busy work schedule with a lot of travel involved. While I was truthfully busy and had a lot of work travel, I had further created a void between us by mentally "checking out" of the M. While she didn't know at the time that it was an A, she knew things weren't right.

2) Did any of you end the A upon feeling the BS suspicion or end the A long before discovery? If so, how long did the fog remain? Was there ever a moment when you said all to yourself, with no confrontation, "Oh my God, what the hell am I doing/have I done?"

D-Day forced my A to end, but I can say that the fog still lingered for another 5 months. That moment you're asking about came when I had to produce tangible evidence for something I never would have been questioned about before the A. The pain in my BW's face was enough to shake me loose from the fog at that moment.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 2:53 PM, August 24th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

JanaGreen -

I so very badly want to trust him and believe that this was just a horrible drunk decision and that there's not more "trickle truth" that I'm not getting. Am I a fool to believe him?

You'll see the expression "Trust, but Verify" a lot here. It's sound advice.

Even for those of us who found our way to fully remorseful, devoted places again - admitting the truth to ourselves was a long and painful process. We not only lied to our BS, kids and others, but we also lied to ourselves. In many cases, we "baffled ourselves with bull****" so much we didn't know what the real truth was anymore.

It takes time to work out the truth, and for me IC was a critical component of that process. If your WH is willing to go to IC and explore the reasons he made the choice to get drunk, made the choice to "make a mistake", etc. - then your answers will play out through the answers he finds in counseling.

If he is unwilling to get counseling and keeps trying to pass this off as a "oops, it was a bad night that will never happen again", that would be a red flag for me to dig deeper. He made choices - even if the only one he rationally controlled was his drinking. But unless he knows why he allowed himself to make those choices, he cannot ensure he will never make them again.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 2:58 PM, August 24th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

aries61 -


He just says "he was not in his right mind" Do other WS feel the same way? Can anyone explain this mind set to me.

Well, yes, sort of. Our MC described it as me getting in "over my head". Basically, things started with light flirting and ego stroking. It built over time and as it did, I allowed my mind to see the reality it was creating instead of the true reality around me.

Was I the real person I am during the A? No. But that leads to your other point....

My WS was like this for 20+ years. Had he really lost his mind for all those years. He is a different person now. Ten months of therapy and hard work reconciling, but do I have to worry that he'll lose his mind again someday?

If your WH figured out through therapy what his weaknesses were and is showing you that he has addressed them, then odds are he can avoid losing his mind in the future. But if he either went to IC and didn't learn anything, or if he feels he does not need to continually work at the areas that were his weaknesses (I'll be facing mine for the rest of my life), there's potential reason for concern.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
JanaGreen
♀ Member
Member # 29341
Default  Posted: 4:53 PM, August 24th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you Listeningclosely!

We're going to MC and he's going to IC. He said that he needs to figure out what's wrong with himself that he would do this and fix it. I think we're on the right track. THANK YOU SO MUCH.


We're both in our 30s. One awesome 4-year-old daughter.

Posts: 6146 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Somewhere in the South
moreroses
♀ Member
Member # 26283
Default  Posted: 6:45 AM, August 26th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just a thank you also for answering my post too!

We do not have any issue with NC but it was single former ow I was worried about. The A fully ended 5 years ago in early 2005 and she still fishes from time to time. We hadn't heard from her since Jan. and I was wondering if she is suffering any NC anxiety becasue this is the longest period ever without a peep from her. Her last fishing involved a lot of insults directed at my husband when she was ignored. I can't figure if this was a final blow of hers , or if it's just the same ol same ol. Who knows, but was wondering if she is still obsessing.Thanks for any insight.


BW;Me
DDay;2-14-08 when former ow decided to enlighten me about previous A
marriage rebuilt, felt rebuilt at 2 1/2 yrs out
long marriage with 4 kids

"And the stars that we could reach were just starfish on the beach"-French folksong


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