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User Topic: BS Questions for WS's IV
the fsc
♂ Member
Member # 23028
Default  Posted: 12:56 PM, July 17th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Allgoodnamesgone…

It's NEVER that simple. I've had this discussion with RR on more than one occasion. My A was 3 months long, and my texting and phone calls with OW also exhibited a compulsiveness…hell, an EMBARRASSINGLY extreme teenage-like compulsiveness. I too, have used the "just for sex" phrase to describe my A. While the "why" for my Affair goes much deeper than for the reasons I've told my BW (my fault, instead of hers), the A was indeed primarily for the physical relationship, or sex. The texting? The phone calls? "It was a means to an end" is the way I still describe it. And I subsequently point out the complete lack of an emotional "hangover" after the A ended. "How could it have been emotional? What deep, meaningful, loving conversations or texts could we have possibly had, when you see how easy it was for me to go cold turkey on her…and her me?" I go on to add "if there was some emotional substance to our conversations, then wouldn't it have been harder for me to deal with the loss of my A partner?".

The fact that I sought physical things from another woman does not make me bullet-proof from the emotional attachment that could have resulted from that physical connection. The fact that my A-partner was a complete nut-job helped me immensely. The more I got to know her, the less compatible I found us to be. When asked how I could have texted and phoned so often with her, yet have little to speak of in terms of substantially emotional items…well…"to get to know her". We were strangers to begin with. "why did I keep going back if I knew I didn't like her?"…well…because I was in too deep already…because I sensed that she wouldn't go quietly…because I still wanted the physical part…because…because.

2-years out, I'm just beginning to touch and feel…and admit to myself that there had to be more than just call-girl-like sex there. But no matter how many times we discuss it, I brush it off with the "means to an end" argument. "You're an attractive woman, and I can't understand why you haven't been swept up yet" to me was a line…a tool to get her into bed. But to RR it means a lot more. It's difficult to scrape away the surface of the A, and examine it further for its entirety. Even further complicating this in my case is the fact that I’m an emotionally closed book…even with my W. It's a fundamental character flaw that I'm finally forced to face after all my life with my BW. The deeper I look at it, I'm still challenged to find an emotional attachment to the AP. I feel like I'm looking at one of those hidden pictures, focusing just right to see it…but I can't. I protected myself from my A-partner…even more than I protect myself from my BW (again, HUGE character flaw). I'm still digging…but it's slow. I think that I avoid it because I'm afraid of how emotionally closed off from BW I'll find I've always been. I realize that this is probably NOT the response you were looking for…but maybe it will give you some insight. I struggle with it…big-time. Things that are seemingly dismissive to me, may be important to RR…and that's where I've got to go, and deep. Not only about the A…but for us and our future.

I think your BH needs to dig deep as well, and look at some fundamental reasons internal to himself that he needs to fix. He needs to determine where his friendship with another woman crossed the boundary and share that with you and MC…that's where MC/IC should be going with him anyway. I think the soul searching you are looking for is the same that your BH and I both need to work on…and that is the reasons other than the superficially simple "lack of sex" for the Affair. The lack of expression and feeling sharing on our parts that created the slippery slope that took us there. Our inability to demonstrate vulnerability with our BW's…and openness with the person who we pledged our lives to. I don't think we can work on repairing our M's without fixing these things as well.


WH - (45) Me
BS - (44) Her (Redrock)

D Day 3/23/2008
Easter


Posts: 165 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Michigan
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 1:44 PM, July 17th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you FSC. Your response did help me understand a bit more. I think my H did have a bit of an emotional hangover (that's a great phrase by the way)- hard to tell - he was also pretty shell shocked by the fact that I discovere dthe A - and that is why his return to calling her on a secret phone (that he tells me she provided) makes me think otherwise. In fact, when I discovered it I told him I couldn't imagine getting over that part of it - it was surprisingly worse than discovering the A itself.
I could go on & on , but I will leave it at a simple "Thank you".


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
deceivedone10
Member
Member # 29042
Default  Posted: 7:46 PM, July 17th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Question: The cell phone I found in his garage is not really from 4 years ago, is it?? (He wouldn't let me see it-tore it out of my hands and said "I have old texts in there to my ex from 4 years ago-they were sexual and flirty and I don't want to you to see them). Complete lie, right???


Counting on Karma...

Posts: 133 | Registered: Jul 2010
Kwills
♀ Member
Member # 13172
Default  Posted: 9:26 AM, July 18th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Question: The cell phone I found in his garage is not really from 4 years ago, is it?? (He wouldn't let me see it-tore it out of my hands and said "I have old texts in there to my ex from 4 years ago-they were sexual and flirty and I don't want to you to see them). Complete lie, right???

I think this could go either way. Either he is lying, or he is trying to keep from ripping the wound wide open again (who wants to go through that upset all over again, especially 4 years out?) Let him know that you are hurt either way, that he should have discarded the phone in the post disaster cleanup effort or turned it over to you--his retaning the phone could be perceived as cherishing something. Personally I don't think I would want to keep something like that, it would just be anxiety provoking & I'd have to worry if it was ever going to be found & read.

What were you doing in the garage?

Kwills


Posts: 1052 | Registered: Jan 2007
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 9:35 AM, July 18th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Deceivedone10 - Why don't you trust yourself? You know the phone is not 4 years old. You know he is either currently cheating or was recently cheating.

You either like the drama or you're not a good detective. All the evidence is staring you in the face (not just this phone) and you want to change the logical conclusion so that you can keep perpetuating the cycle.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
Card
♂ Member
Member # 23667
Default  Posted: 9:39 AM, July 18th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Deceivedone10 - Why don't you trust yourself? You know the phone is not 4 years old. You know he is either currently cheating or was recently cheating.
You either like the drama or you're not a good detective. All the evidence is staring you in the face (not just this phone) and you want to change the logical conclusion so that you can keep perpetuating the cycle.

DITTO!


WH (me)
BS (her)

D-Days April - Oct. 2007 Recovery started Nov. 2007

"Found Myself", I was right there in my shoes all along!
Search for self called off!

Why Repentance Is Necessary? Because Undeserved Mercy Empowers Entitlement/Sin


Posts: 570 | Registered: Apr 2009
deceivedone10
Member
Member # 29042
Default  Posted: 1:01 PM, July 18th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What were you doing in the garage?

He was outside washing my car. I grabbed his hunting chair so I could sit down and talk to him. The chair has a supply pouch on it,with a zipper. I unfolded the chair and the pouch was wide open. I immediately recognized a pack of condoms and then saw the phone. For once in my life, I wasn't snooping on the man, and evidence presents itself to me. The condom story was believable (he cheated on me in APril, these condoms were from that rendevous...there were 3 condoms--2 still in pkg and an empty wrapper). He saw that I saw the stuff and ran up to me and grabbed the chair and ran to the back of his apt. Put the phone in his pocket. Wouldn't let me look at the phone at all. Claimed it had sexual and flirty texts on it to his ex from 4 years ago.

Here's what I don't get. In the past, he NEVER had a problem using his real phone to carry on affairs/cheating. He'd text/call girls on his real phone and I'd just have to deal with it when I saw it on his phone bill or he'd forget to erase it on his phone. Never before did he try to hide the cheating that well. So, maybe he just got this "secret phone" so he wouldn't have to worry about me looking at his phone bill anymore and he wouldn't have to worry about remembering to erase texts/calls from his regular phone. ????????


Counting on Karma...

Posts: 133 | Registered: Jul 2010
deceivedone10
Member
Member # 29042
Default  Posted: 1:04 PM, July 18th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Another qst for the WS:

What can I do on my part to make my man want to become a better man and start doing the right things?? Pull away and get my own life back? He's never been the type to cheat and actually want to be with the other girl. He's the type of cheater that likes to just chat/text/call/email girls for the sake of attention. Or sleep with them behind my back. Never have I ever felt like he'd leave me for another girl. It's like he's just addicted to the attention.

So, is there ANYTHING I can do on my part to wake him up to what a great woman he already has so that he will stop his behavior???


Counting on Karma...

Posts: 133 | Registered: Jul 2010
Card
♂ Member
Member # 23667
Default  Posted: 7:53 PM, July 18th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

deceivedone10

You are obviously in what is called a Betrayed Spouse FOG!

I can't reall respond to your posts other than to recommend a seperation or a divorce.

You are far more valuable than to allow yourself to be no more than a doormat!

I'm really sorry, but your man is a liar and will probably never change.


WH (me)
BS (her)

D-Days April - Oct. 2007 Recovery started Nov. 2007

"Found Myself", I was right there in my shoes all along!
Search for self called off!

Why Repentance Is Necessary? Because Undeserved Mercy Empowers Entitlement/Sin


Posts: 570 | Registered: Apr 2009
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 8:17 PM, July 18th (Sunday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Deceivedone10 - You cannot control him into being someone different. He is the way he is because of him, not you. Therefore, there is nothing you can do to make him change.

You decide what you are willing to put up with.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 9:59 AM, July 20th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

deceivedone10 - the one thing I've seen both myself and with many others here is that the moment a BS establishes the line in the sand, the WS shows which way they will go.

In my case, my BW always followed through and never made idle threats. So as a result when she stated exactly what I would have to do to start the healing process, I knew she meant it. In my case, it tipped the scale to push me toward the work I had to do to reconcile.

I've seen others where when that line is drawn they run away. The reality is that if that's their reaction then not drawing the line in the sand would just have extended the pain anyway.

At this point, you've reached the point where you really should stop trying to figure out how to change each individual flaw in your WS. Simply state the facts. For me, I had to arrange for the first counseling session, go NC with the OP, open up full transparency, get IC to figure out why I did what I did, etc. to stay at home and be a part of our family.

Make your rules, set them in front of your WS, and allow the choice to happen. Either way, you will know what the probable outcome would have been all along.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
DevastatedTwice
♀ Member
Member # 29061
Default  Posted: 9:53 AM, July 23rd (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I really appreciate any WS's answering my questions. I read on here for hours last night and barely got anywhere so my question has probably been answered.

I feel like I'm continually trying to make sense of the fog. Not sure if this is what I'm trying to do by my question.

All of our marriage, my WH has wanted to spend every minute together....to the point where he'd want the whole family to go with him to the hardware store. During both of his affairs, he seemed to not care whether he saw us at all. During the second, I completely distanced myself from him (a 180 I guess although I hadn't heard about that). Every few weeks he would say he missed us. But he seemed like a totally different person. Before the affair, he wanted to be at every event for the kids and couldn't stand being away from them for a day....he even hated going to work and missing out.

But during the affair, he missed all their events. He barely saw them at all. They were totally struggling. I was totally struggling.

I can understand getting involved with someone else. But I don't understand completely abandoning your family when they were everything to you before. Can someone explain to me how that's possible? Is it about loving and wanting the OW so bad that you just don't care about your family any more? I think the answer to that is no, but sometimes I feel like I'm in a BW fog because I can't get the focus off the OW.

This issue always bothered me during the A. But it came up again now because WH is going away overnight for a fun day with a friend tonight. But he keeps saying he doesn't want to go and will miss us too much. So now I'm confused again about why he can hardly go a day without us when he's not in an A but can go a week or more when he is.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[This message edited by DevastatedTwice at 9:56 AM, July 23rd (Friday)]


Me - BS - 39
Him - WH, SA - 39
Married 17 yrs.
3 kids- 16, 13, 8
Dday#1 - 3/16/07 PA
D-day#2- 9/21/09 PA, began recovery 6/8/10
D-day#3- 11-8-10 False recovery.
D-Day#4- 12/27/11 Third PA, divorcing
Divorced- 6/6/12

Posts: 405 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: California
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 11:52 AM, July 23rd (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

DevestatedTwice,

Do you remember how you felt when you and your WH first met? Was there a time when you and/or he exluded everything in your lives just to be with each other? Many A's have this same component that most/many couples experience in the first months of the relationship. Limerence may be what he was experiencing and if so, it is pretty powerful.

Right after I met my wife I went to a big family ski vacation. I showed up late and left early because I couldn't stand being away from my wife. Well, when my A happened, it was a similar thing that occurred. I just needed my fix and the OW was providing it.

Now that we are trying to R, I am back to wanting to be with my BW as much as possible. I work out of town a fair amount though and while it may seem fun to go out all the time and stay in new places and meet new people, it is really a pain in the ass and I would rather be home with BW. Luckily she can go along with me once in a while and those trips are a lot better.

As far as you getting your attention off OW, it isn't her, it is your WH. He needs to break the cycle, break the need for that feeling. It really doesn't matter who the OW is, if he doesn't figure out why he allows himself to get into these situations, then it could happen again.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6047 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
MissesJai
♀ Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 12:33 PM, July 23rd (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

deceivedone ~
So, is there ANYTHING I can do on my part to wake him up to what a great woman he already has so that he will stop his behavior???
in short, NOPE....he's gotten away with it all this time, he's got no incentive to change....bottom line, the only thing you can change is YOU....so, either you wake up and leave this man, or simply accept this as your life...the choice is yours....


FWW - 40
Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent...

Posts: 5525 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
EmptyCup
♀ Member
Member # 22909
Default  Posted: 1:54 PM, July 23rd (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Is it about loving and wanting the OW so bad that you just don't care about your family any more?

I agree with BaxtersBFF. It's not about love, it's about limerance. It's more than that, though. The affair can have a powerful, addictive draw for a WS. Most likely he was trying to fill some void in himself with whatever it was he was getting from the affair (external validation, for example). That, combined with the limerance aspect of a new "relationship" can have a very strong draw and cause withdrawal when it's taken away.

I wonder how much of this is a personality trait. I did the same thing as BaxtersBFF when my H and I were dating and I've gotten very absorbed in new things over the years. Only my affair was to an extent that it excluded my family, but I can get overly sucked into new interests (internet forums, people, hobbies, gadgets, drugs when I was younger, etc, although it most often involved connections to other people) at times. I used to say I had an addictive personality. In retrospect, I was just grasping desperately at whatever fix I was getting from it to try to fill the emptiness inside.


FWW, reconciled with my best friend <3

Nothing much but love to give you, even less have I to hide - Tim O'Brien


Posts: 1140 | Registered: Feb 2009
brokenheart831
♀ Member
Member # 29073
Default  Posted: 5:40 PM, July 23rd (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ok, my question is.....why is it so hard to get rid of the OP? Have any of you started NC and really stuck with it? For those who did not initially how long did it take to cut off communication and what finally made you do it?

Posts: 241 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: MD/DC
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 5:59 PM, July 23rd (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

DevastatedTwice and Brokenheart831 -

You may not realize it, but your questions are actually connected.

As Baxters and EmptyCup pointed out, the primary issue we were dealing with was not about love. It was about something filling what we saw as a void in our lives. As we let the OP fill that void, our vision narrowed. We tunneled in on all interactions with the OP to where we blocked out everything else. People in our lives, events in our lives, even our own sense of reason. We were drawn to the OP like a drug addict is drawn to another hit of their drug. Nothing else matters, and you risk losing everything in the process. but your view of the world is so screwed up you don't see it happening.

That same draw is what makes it so hard to leave the OP. I did follow through on NC< but I won't say it was easy. I had to deal with triggers that would remind me of something about the OP. I had voids I had to learn to fill myself instead of letting the OP do it for me.

For example, I was relying on xMOW for external validation. Once NC was established, I was faced with worries about xMOW hating me, moving on easily without me as if I didn't matter, etc. In essence, since I was unable to see the good in myself the thought that I was seen as bad or worthless to xMOW was rough. It took a while for me to discover both a stronger view of myself from within, as well as to clear my head to see that the people who mattered most in my lives - my family - saw good in me too and felt I had a lot of worth to offer them.

If you combine this with the fact that after discovery there is plenty of reason for a BS to not think anything good about their WS nor to see their value, that interim time can be a huge struggle. That's why IC is so critical early - to help the WS find their inner strength and not need something like an OP to provide it for them.

I held to NC, but I had to go through a process to purge myself of the "old" LC in order to bring back the person I really am.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
brokenheart831
♀ Member
Member # 29073
Default  Posted: 9:36 PM, July 23rd (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Listeningclosely, would it have made it easier for you to get over the OW if your wife had been loving and making you feel good about youself or would that have been a turn off? I tried to show my husband how great I thought he was since he stated that was part of why he had the A. He did not feel appreciated by me anymore. I was busy with a newborn at that time but I made the effort and he then told me he thought I was just acting and being insencere

Posts: 241 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: MD/DC
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 7:11 AM, July 24th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Brokenheart831 -

would it have made it easier for you to get over the OW if your wife had been loving and making you feel good about youself or would that have been a turn off?

It wouldn't have been a turn off. Far from it. But it also would have been the worst thing for us in the long run.

At this point I have the benefit of hindsight. Looking back, if my BW had showered me with affection after D-Day I would have taken it in and used it to feel good about myself. But it also would have continued to mask the fact that I needed to work on my own self image. It would have left me vulnerable to another A as soon as things got tough between my BW and I and some new person came by to shower me with compliments.

I had to do the work on myself to feel good about myself before I could ask my BW to feel good about me too.

Having an A because your BS "did not show their affection enough for you" is a way of saying "I can't be strong in myself, so I will turn to whoever is willing to toss me a compliment.". The only way to both help things now and to ensure the WS has been "affair proofed" in the future is for the WS to go to IC and figure out why they can't just appreciate themselves and not rely on others to do it for them.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
thegreatwife
♀ Member
Member # 28119
Default  Posted: 11:59 AM, July 24th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WH is out of the house living with parents. He has minimal interaction with his 3 children. I can understand if he is conflicted about me, but why will he not do anything with his children?
He is still in phone contact with OW but she lives halfway across country.
Why would he rather be by himself, lonely (18 messages on answering machine last weekend) than come home and reclaim his life? No it won't be easy but all is possible. PS he suffers from major depression


Me - Faithful Spouse 44
Him - WS 44
Married - 20 yrs
Together - 25 years
D Day 12/30/09
EA/PA - 18 mos

"Those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." But what truly matters is what *you* think." Dr. Seuss


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