I'm pretty sure that NC is still in order because I have secret ways and have been checking up on her and there is nothing happening that I have seen.
It's very frustrating for me because I love her and want the intimacy back but I feel like she keeps putting on the brakes. I don't understand the shame she feels.
Is there a WS out there that had similar feelings about sex with their BS? What was your mindset? What changed your feelings about that?
Anyone can give up, it's the easiest thing in the world to do. But to hold it together when everyone else would understand if you fell apart, that's true strength.
Okay this is a sex question so there is bound to be some TMI involved, but I'll try to keep it to a minimum.
FWW has had 4 EAs and one EA turned ONS followed by EA during the time we've been together. That's over twenty years. I got over the EAs well enough, but this ONS has me struggling. For one I just don't believe it. Hot chatting/texting at work with OM leads to ONS followed by hot chatting/texting at work. There is physical evidence as well but that is TMI even for my drunken ass.
My problem is this: I can get through this, eventually. It would go faster if I thought she were being completely honest with me but considering what I believe happened I can understand her fear of doing so. I'm more concerned that she is not being honest with me than what did or didn't happen actually.
Where I run into trouble is that during the EAs and ONS she became more aggressive sexually. This is something I really enjoyed as she is normally a pretty passive person. I tend to initiate things WAY more than she does (as in NEVER except, well, you get the idea) She has told me that she is afraid it would be a huge trigger for me and that I would think she was up to her bad behavior again, which is understandable. But I really do crave for her to start things once in a while. I would like to be on the receiving end sometimes too. I love to give her goosebumps and feel her become aroused at my touch, the whole predator - prey thing. But once in a while I would like to be the prey, ya know? Where's my goosebumpage? Because the way things have been going, I feel like I have been a human dildo for her fantasies. I don't feel wanted, desired, craved.
So how do I talk to her about this without making her feel even more shame about what's happened? Because that has been the pattern so far. I've been playing along, reading and posting in the forums, hoping she would see some of the things I say and buy a clue or a vowel or something. But she just cruises along in F&G and Off Topic...
Just realized this had turned into a vent and I really didna wanna do dat. I'm out of whiskey anyway, I should go to bed. But any suggestions would be appreciated (thank you dictionary.com, thought I was never going to spell that right)
Before de-fogging I did not want NC, was resentful at any feeling of remorse that may have encroached on my fantasy, locked up all my accounts with new passwords, and was honest about averything except the A. Nothing anyone could have said would have made me change my views of these four pillars. As a WS starts coming out of the fog, a hefty 2x4 can start making a difference, but even then, the addiction can be too much and the WS can deny these four pillars until they destroy everything.
Thanks, BaxtersBFF. I think we're at a point where everything has been destroyed. WS thinks they can still be 'friends'. He is (?) honest when asked point blank, but there are many lies by omission. His whole demeanor is one of entitlement. Even though I have seen a trickle of effort since the first of the year, I just don't think he is ever going to 'get it'.
No you aren't being unrealistic. Since he is reluctant to let you listen in or review what he writes, there are some things that he probably feels he needs to say that he doesn't want you to hear. You can probably guess what those things are.
I wanted to have that last conversation with my OW, but it never occurred. Looking back I am glad that it didn't occur. I am not one to just flip the switch and be done, but if that last conversation would have occurred, the one that I wouldn't have wanted my BW to be listening in on, it would have prolonged the pain for everybody.
This isn't his time right now to be telling you what he needs to do. This is your time.
Mplpmom - When I asked him to do it via a NC letter or allow me to be on the call, he refused saying he was not going to allow me to control him or control the sitch, he needed to do it his way. I expressed that I needed to listen to have some reassurance that it was truly over? Am I being unrealistic or asking for too much too soon?
No. you are not being unrealistic or asking too much, too soon. Period!
Obviously, it has not sunk into him that after his unilateral decision to destroy the marriage and the bonds of trust and respect that should tie you together; you get to call the shots with regard to the next decision. Itís your unilateral right to make the decision to go down the road of divorce or the road of separation or the road of reconciliation. He doesnít really get much of a vote in this regard.
If he understood this and was feeling the first pangs of remorse, he would understand your need to set boundaries in stone and that part of that process would include the issues of transparency and NC. He is not being transparent when he wants to retain control and keep you out of the decision making process. You could explain that youíre not controlling him, youíre merely demanding to have transparency within your marriage and thatís understandable considering that he is a proven liar.
No, this sounds like he is still in the fog worse than a Newfie. Perhaps a dose of the 180 will help steer him in the right direction or perhaps a firm line needs to be drawn in the sand. You might want to suggest that he reads the post at http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=324250 so he can understand what is happening in your head and heart right now.
Expressing "remorse" means that he has to back up those words with action. That means transparancy, that means honesty, that means doing whatever it takes to make you feel comfortable and safe again. Trying to control NC in this manner is not showing remorse.
HUFI - BE STRONG. BE LION STRONG. ROAAR!
The fact that he recieved a phone call from his chum that night might not be a red flag.
It seems to me that more and more people actually use their phones in places like bars, malls and stores to keep tabs on their friends instead of walking around and looking for them anymore. Maybe itís just a generational thing but I would tend to walk around the bar looking for my friend rather than even thinking of calling him on a phone. But thatís me.
However, the promise of honesty and transparency that your H should have given you in exchange for the gift of reconciliation does not come with a due date and expiry date.
I think you should feel free to ask. IMHO, his response might be the very thing that tells you to worry or not.
[This message edited by HUFI-PUFI at 12:20 PM, March 9th (Tuesday)]
No, you are absolutely not being unreasonable at all.
Personally, I feel it is much too soon for him to be going out period, much less w/o you. Some couples never get to the point where they are comfortable with solo outings after an A. And that is absolutely ok.
Here's the main issue though, he himself has identified this as a problem and promised to stop going out. Then a week later he is "asking" you if it is ok, putting all the responsibility on you. THAT is not ok. It is time he starts being a man of his word and stops giving you lip service. He says he wants to R and he says that his going out is a problem and he isn't going to do it anymore. His actions aren't matching his words.
I'm not almost 40. I'm $19.99 plus shipping and handling. And insurance.
Sometimes, the person you would take a bullet for is the one holding the gun.
Same for WHs and the emotional aspect.
DDay 1: 11/21/09 (ILYBINILWY)
DDay 2: 2/18/10 - Full disclosure of EA/PA
Divorced (my choice) 10/8/10
Are there any WSs or BSs that could give me a little insight on my previous post, please?
Your question has crossed my mind a few times over the past couple days and what I wonder is whether this is more of a gender thing as far as how your WGF is acting. I don't know.
But to your questions, even though I had an EA, I have struggled with guilt in the sense that I don't always feel I have the right to participate. I don't just lay there, but I have a difficult time showing my BW intimacy. It's like I don't feel worthy to touch her. It has only been recently that I have been able to overcome those feelings of guilt and felt okay with giving intimacy. Re-reading your quesiton, I guess I also felt guilty receiving intimacy from my BW even though she has always appeared to give it freely. So I can understand if your WGF doesn't feel as if she deserves it. Sort of a penance thing.
It sounds like you need this in order to heal. Have you approached her in conversation in regards to needing it for your healing? and for her to try to get passed that?
When I came home after my A, I didn't want my BH to touch me. I felt like I was cheating on the xOM. I know that makes no sense, but in my mind, at the time, thats how I felt.
Me, personally had no desire or physical attraction to my BH at all. The thought of him touching me made me cringe.
It took awhile before I finally got my head on straight, and alot of IC to finally figure out why I was feeling like I was.
For me, we wern't that far from d-day at the time. I was in a daze I guess you could say for quite awhile, and if we did have sex, thats all it was to me. I didn't want foreplay, etc., I just wanted it over with. I guess I was doing it for my BH, not for me.
What it comes down to, is the emotional toll the A has on the relationship. I know what I went through, and I'm the FWW. I can't even to begin to imagine what a BS goes through, but I know it must be worse than hell, if thats possible.
Time...That's what it takes, is time, and it may take a long time. And yes, shame also plays a HUGE part in it also.
Feel free to PM me if you want to. Take care and hang in there...
how come the remorse only came out when you got caught and NOT before?
What you may have seen already, or you can find relatively easy throughout the sight, is reference to the fog. That is what keeps remorse at bay. For many WS, the fog that occurs during the A is powerful enough to make us feel justified in what we are doing. There is no remorse because we have found our panacea and our marriages are crap. We can believe this wholeheartedly. Then D-day hits and we start to see what idiots we were. Then it really diverges here...some WS can go cold turkey, full remorse. Others, like myself, take a long, long, long, long, very long time to really come out of the fog and start feeling remorse. When the fog is around, we just aren't capable of remorse, or we are very good at pushing it deep down into ourselves because of the fantasy that we find ourselves in, but don't realize is fantasy.
You could also sum it up by saying we are stupid...but we are trying now.
So - R is going well. Like so many other men, my FWS does not have a lot of friends he stays connected with. He's happier when he connects with people. I don't feel so much pressure that I am ALL the entertainment. I like to hang out with my friends and he just sits at home.
Anyway...after much thought and increasing trust. I told him he should start a facebook page and it would be a good way to reconnect especially with his 25th high school reunion coming up. He was not interested at first, but I set it up.
A couple days later, he liked it - could not believe how many people he was connecting with and I think got a kick out of it.
Then he tell me - a female high school friend - friended him and he was looking at her pictures and say one of three of his female classmates posing together. The caption was - we look just like we did in high school. My FWS tells me his comment was "A trio of hotties - just like Charlie's Angels".
I kinda make a frown face, but sit on it. He says that he's not sure whether it's okay facebook etiquette or does it seem creepy. I don't answer.
Before bed, I say that the comment he made on that picture bothered me because I thought it was flirty. He said he was just trying to be nice...then blew up at me. Turned his back on me. Said I set up his facebook and forget it - he's not using it if that's what's gonna happen.
I told him if that's what he wanted to do. But that I would like to talk to him about this comment and don't appreciate him blowing up at me.
You know - I think the comment was actually somewhat fun - he told me - so - I don't think it was meant to start something, but there are many things that start without meaning to BECOME something.
What is your take on his anger at me?
He's still mad.
How do I approach this again?
Although I was very calm and conversational - he said he felt like he was being attacked (this is a problem that we have discussed for years - how do I approach him when anyway he takes it as an attack).
I have a mixed up series of questions because I am a very mixed up person right now.
My WW had an approximately 4 yr., LTA. 2-EA+2-EA/PA. We've been married almost 30 years. I found it out and that is what caused it to end.
I've recently told my WW I wanted to S for financial reasons and then D in 6 months. Obviously I have some doubts or I wouldn't be writing.
My WW tells me that I am everything to her, has gone NC, read everything I've asked and gone to some IC and MC (only some due to finances again). She seems like she won't go down that path again but she also is really lousy at opening up and talking about anything. She will answer any direct question I have with a direct answer and that is the end of it. Otherwise it is never spoken of.
I spend every day in silent agony wondering about so many things. I don't want to be or have any desire to become the grand inquisitor and try and ask her 1 million questions to get 1/2 dozen truths. I really want to come to some understanding of why? Why now am I the greatest thing that ever happened to her? Why now is our marriage worth fighting for when just 9 months ago it wasn't? Why can she not ever open up to me emotionally until we get to a point like this? I left once before and asked for D once before but each time this happened I saw what I thought was the person I married coming out and trying to be remorseful in a way I need and can understand. As long as I don't bring it up though she just moves happily thru her day acting like nothing ever happened while I am dying a little more inside every day. I have never felt so alone in all of my life and I have told her this is why I want to D. I have been alone in this marriage for almost 5 years now and I can go heal myself by being alone better than constantly seeing her act as if nothing has happened and being so happy.
Is there something I'm not seeing here that can make me understand this better. We are S this weekend and headed towards D unless I decide otherwise.