I've often wondered if kids have gut feelings too... do they know? can they see love? does that carry over? does staying M, help or hurt?
I can think back... I was 40 when my Wife really started her two faces.... what would life have been like for my kids, had I kept boundaries back then? My wife was certainly in a different place then today... maybe it was just meant to be, fate... or God.. Oh well, things are starting to feel better now...
My son (19) and I have not talked about my W's A too much. But last time we did, he gave me a hug and said, "I'm glad you stayed."
Peace to all today...
[This message edited by trynhard at 6:11 PM, November 22nd (Sunday)]
what would life have been like for my kids, had I kept boundaries back then?
As for what kids feel..
I know growing up in a LTA inflicted household, that all I ever wanted was for my parents to get along. When I became a teenager and could see the hurt he caused her, I encouraged her to leave and start fresh with us kids...she went back.
Kids do sense our friction, the sadness and anger,especially when it hangs heavy. They may not understand it but they know that somethings gone wrong.
Your son sounds pretty cool.
What do you think that the universe is trying to tell you?
I am sorry you had a bad day. Isnt it horrible how on some days, infidelity and OW and WS, just seem to be on every freeking corner?
Sending you big hugs and good vibes for a more peaceful week.
Mind what you love. Mind how you are loved.
Do you really think that that is your responsibility to bear?
Iwantamiracle is very special... not greedy, not selfish and a very special deep love for here kids... Me, I’m too selfish.
[This message edited by trynhard at 6:27 PM, November 22nd (Sunday)]
i disagree on prevention of an affair...but i disagree only on certain affairs, some start just because there is no communication, some start because sex is no longer an active part, some start because one spouse is never home...there are so many reasons an affair can start...reasons that BOTH SPOUSES need to work on...for the spouse who chooses to run away from the problems and have the affair there are no excuses...but should both partied work on the marriage, and turn towards each other as opposed to away, i believe alot of affairs can be prevented....
then of course there are those affairs that it truly doesn't matter,the one who cheats will cheat no matter what...i unfortunately married one of those, as did most of us....
i think if you are married to the first kind of cheater, your success and reconcilliation is much more attainable...where for the latter, not so much...if there was no real reason to turn away, then there is nothing to prevent it from happening again....not to mention that the latter are a different breed of human...the kind who do it just because they can....
tryn: i am curious on the latest picutre, why is the man naked? and has 2 head? what is your symoblism?...this picture really hits home..
When I became a teenager and could see the hurt he caused her, I encouraged her to leave and start fresh with us kids...she went back.
how do you relate this to your own marriage?...would your children want you to do what you wanted your own mom to do...
and thanks guys for the support as usual, thankfully bad days pass....kind of like gas, ...once you get that feeling, you are completely uncomfortable until you can pass that gas...then you pass the gas.. and it instant rrelief, the odor may linger a bit, but it passes... now if only those bad days or moments can dissappear like the gas dissapates... with nothing but a distant recollection of the event...but alas....so not that simple...if only....
i really must be nuts, comparing the feelings over triggers to farts... ...yep....nuts...
Iwantamiracle is very special... not greedy, not selfish and a very special deep love for here kids
i do have a deep love for my kids, but i am selfish too...and in a way, doing this for them is also doing this for me...i need to be able to live with my decisions...and on the selfish side, i would not think twice at this point in time of having my own private, very private, discreeet relationship...so i can be selfish....as far as i am concerned, my vows are no longer in place, my contract of marriage was broken and i have no reason to stay faithful...i there is nothing to stay faithful too, except my kids...there are alot of people who would think very badly of me because of these beliefs, and would condemn me should they come to pass...
i've learned that going back to what we should and could have done is fruitless....it cannot change what has alreaduy happened, and because of your reality with your new experiences..who you were then is no longer who you are now....we are forever evolving...going back and giving a a life review though can be quite helpful in learning from your past to deal with your present and prepare for your future...which is pretty different from living regretfully and lamenting over what cannot be changed...jmho...
good night all
My son had his laptop stolen at Purdue about a month ago. A $700 mistake. He told me that he thought it was visitors to his fraternity and no way it could have been a brother. I look at him and said, how can you say that? You know what your mother did to me, If someone you commit to God can do what she did, what makes you think a brother, some you know, would not steal? He didn’t say a word. My kids are going to read my story too before they get married… when engaged. I have detailed my tremendous pain, anger, hurt and the deceptions. They will see my art too. I hope they can see also that you can forgive if you decide to do it.
My art is based on my thoughts about what I know about you Iwant… They may be true.. or not. I live my own thoughts, dreams, visions as I read what so many have to say here… You are different then others here… So here is my verbal behind that art…
The family circle of commitment broke, no longer can hold hands, touch, broken by a two faced selfish liar caught. Everyone now knows who he is, stripped down, no more hiding who he is, he’s naked. He betrayed such a beautiful woman you see, a woman that gave him his three children… and devotion. He tries and tries to hold out his hand in sorrow, but today, she does not have it, she cannot forgive him, and cannot look at his face. Stop it. The kids do see what is going on, they are looking at him wondering why he did it. They both hold on to the kids because of family love, unconditional love, and also hold on to a broke marriage, but the circle of forever is broke. The sunrise is in the future as she looks ahead, not a plan just yet, but a vision of seeing beauty again, the black silhouette, she will fall in love again.
I too believe my vows broken. My goal is to asked my wife to marry me again, if I can go one day without thinking about her A, the betrayal, our relationship. It may never happen… and I’m done with therapy. That gave me the tools and knowledge so don’t get me wrong, I recommend therapy to all. I will go off my AD in January or February. This is going to change my brain chemistry and I may not make it in my marriage. I’m going to start picking up my running distance again and try to plan for more positive behaviors.
This is me today
Hyacinth -- I am sorry, Please forgive me
White Tulip - forgiveness
Doves - mates for life
Oh this in review.. I love this poem...
Years with tears of rain, it took it’s toll.
For now in dry dock… She wants a miracle.
On limbo Land, but powerfully magnificence uncovered.
Just sits for now near the cool waters.
Breakaway to be like Wind Dancer.
Return the moist on her stern.
Breakaway… you see Paraiso Azul, a Blue Paradise.
Oh God, bring her a beautiful miracle,
[This message edited by trynhard at 7:54 AM, November 23rd (Monday)]
He says you are the one who is unhappy and you have the problem? Damn! What did he expect? It seems those WSs are really incapable of grasping the situation
Forgive me, I have a memory kinda like miracle's. Have you had MC before? If he is willing to have MC, perhaps he would find out that your feelings are not out of line. Of course it seems these WSs all think the BSs should get over it and in a short time. They seem to think the BS wants to be unhappy.
Since with your double post, you asked twice, I think I better answer the question about OM#1. I hope it is alright if I only answer once.
I knew him socially. We had some mutual friends. It was known that he was pretty successful with the women. My WW claims it was a two night stand. Maybe that is the truth. It could have been longer than that.
He moved away about 6 months after I gave him my NC speech. He was scared of me but, I don't feel he left because of me but work. He got cancer in the brain and died. I did not laugh. I did not cry.
You are right about not being able to ask questions. That can suck. I also agree with the idea that knowing more can make it worse. Am I wishy-washy? Years ago I pretty much decided that knowing more details would just make me more nuts. Of course some say that to fully heal, you need to know everything.
The problem with trying to get the whole truth is the fact that liers, lie. How do you know if the stories are all true? My WW confessed to three different A. For all I know she had ten. If she decided that hell would freeze over before she would fess up to any more, I would bet on her keeping that secret.
Comparing triggers to farts? You are right. It is not that simple. Are you nuts? I don't really think you are. Well maybe a little. I know I am. I was before A. Now I am certified.
Another thumbs up for the art. I totally got that one.
I noticed that the kid she is touching, ( the closest ) is also looking away from him. You really put some thought and time in that one.
You wondered about the kids, and one of your questions was, does staying in M help or hurt. All cases are different, but your son telling you that he was glad you stayed, answers that. In your situation it was the thing to do.
You think that you being soft and non-confrontational assisted your WW's actions. I like to think of it as full and unconditional trust, not being soft. Unless you work with her, ( in my case )travel with her ), how can you monitor her activites? I know I was way too trusting. Hindsight is so very smart.
I hope your son learned a lesson with that stolen laptop. I can sort of remember thinking as he did. It was in a time long and far away.
I hope I only post this once. I do not want to have the iwamdoublepostitis.
My WH had an A just about our whole marriage (18 years of 20 married - from what I have been told).
Ask me anything you want. We are here for you. You can PM me if you want.
Unfortunately several members in here have been in that situation . Iwantamiracle will probably be along soon...you can check out her profile. For most of us, even if the LTA did not last the entire marriage, much of the cheating did (whether they have admitted it or not!)
Hope everyone has one bright point to be thankful this week...:)
tryn: your words have touched me so deeply, i actually cried while i read....so deeply...thank you...
don't let too much time go by before sharing your art with your kids, i understand not sharing all the affair stuff yet, so make some art for them, for your relationship with your children...i think it will be a wonderful legacy for them..
I’m teaching her my new boundaries.
has she come up with any of her own...any that she has said without your prompts...
and i am rooting for you to come off the meds...and yes take up running...the natural chemistry we are wired with is amazing...i am not big on drugs...they are wonderful when necessary, i know i became a xanax fan, but i just don't like anything long term...goes back to seeing alot of drug abuse, and hearing about alot of drug abuse...one of many quirks...
hope I only post this once. I do not want to have the iwamdoublepostitis.
Forgive me, I have a memory kinda like miracle's.
wow 2 diseases...miraclemnesia....i like it, that is named for me...definteley not that i have it part...
Years ago I pretty much decided that knowing more details would just make me more nuts. Of course some say that to fully heal, you need to know everything.
no, no and uh no....knowing detail is an individual thing...each person is the decider on what they need to know with just a few exceptions...everything else is subjective...
the needs to know:
-is he/she in love with the person, even just love
- how long did it take place
- was there unprotected sex
-does the op and/or the ws have an std
- is no contact in place
- who else knows about this
-who the op is
everything else is totally up to each bs...each bs knows what they need as far as info and details...each bs is to make that decision for themselves based on themselves and not others...
the ws needs to answer each and every question without embellishments, and even though not asked, write a timeline including every detail that can be remembered, and put in a safe place should the bs want it, or more info/details...
there are those like you dipstick that feel that what else is there really to know, and then there are bs's like me, i need to know every possible detail....
the rationale behind each of these choices makes perfect sense, but again...no bs should base their choice on someone else, which would you have regrets about later...and if your ws is cooperative and provides that timeline...the bs who chooses not to find out anything else has the option to change his/hers mind...so that there are no regrets...
of course the other biggest obstacle to reconcilliation and healing is a ws who continues to lie, is unremorseful and doesnt do the necessart work to heal the bs and hopefully the marriage...
you are so not wishy-washy...you know yourself well enough to know what you need so bravo...and don't let anyone else tell you otherwise...i may have to double post that one...
so glad to hear that things are progressing...
Just checking in having a relatively quiet week. Counseling is always hard had it last week and it is so emotionally wrenching sometimes I can barely talk to him the rest of the night, but it is good too. He left me a note that said see you tonight...it has been years since I saw a note like that...felt nice.
this is really good, getting it all out there, purging the bad to let in the good is always healing...and yes this healing process is long and frankly it hurts...but its necessary....burying the pain will only surface in other ways, destructive ways....purging gets it out....and out it what you want....so good for you...yay...keep up the good hard work...
iwantamiracle.. I am sorry I made you cry...although, I cried writing this too lol…believe it or not... it is as much for me as it is for you. I am sorry. That is why I had to quickly to my doves…
Hey Dip… “I like to think of it as full and unconditional trust, not being soft.” Yes she had that. I thought M was about that but I don’t think it really is. A relationship changes with time and you must adapt, learn, grow, with all the ups and downs. We get lulled in to being lazy, too secure, and forget about the commitments. So I say you always have boundaries… always! For yourself and for the one you cherish in your relationship. That means, If you feel threatened… you tell them that… if you feel hurt.. you tell them that… just feelings.. not smart ass remarks… and in a good gentle way but clearly… I will not make the same mistake twice. Never. It is then up to the other in the relationship to respond. If not, they are the type person that just cannot do it… I’m learning if my wife is that type. I don’t think but who knows?
This will be a much better, more happy Thanksgiving this year... I pray for all the same. Peace.
I Survived Infidelity... God watched me that day... my angel was my best friend, Mike.
[This message edited by trynhard at 1:05 PM, November 25th (Wednesday)]
It really does get better with time. The M may not, but you will!
Yes we have had MC but stopped when she accused me, of amongst other things, making a bigger deal of the LTAs then they were. Right.
I seldom venture into his head anymore, so I dont know what he is thinking. Maybe I am being a conflict avoider, but I guess I reached such a scary low at some point, that I decided to figure my ehad out first as a means of survival. I am still at it!
My h's LTA started before our M and lasted throughout it.
When you are ready, I look forward to getting to know you. Welcome.
Miraclemnesia! Now you are making up names for yourself.
There are a few details I would like to have the answer to. Not the sex part. She answerd that stuff. Just some other things I sometimes wonder about.
I know the answer to all the ones you listed, except the who else knows about this question. People gossip, stories spread at a rapid pace, true or not. Men brag about this stuff. I am sure he did. When I mentioned that he would have bragged about the A to at least a few buddies, she was really taken by surprise. She had never considered that. It is not a secret if two people know it, is most of the time, a true statement
The problem is that they know the correct answer, the one that causes the least hurt and trouble might not be the truth.
It is common that a BH will want to know how he measured up to the other man. I think most WWs know that telling the BH that the OM was hung like a porn star is not the right answer. The same can be said about questions like did you love the OM and did you enjoy the sex? To answer yes, "I was head over heels in love," and "it was by far, the best sex I have ever had," would not be the smart thing to say.
In order to find out every little detail, you have to be ready to hear things that do cause you a lot of pain. With a remorsful and a so very sorry WS, you also have to be ready to see them in great pain.
I know from my experience that one answer will likely just lead to another question, and then another.
If you do get answers to every last question, how can you be sure you have heard the truth?
That last picture is scary. I liked the lightning. That was a good touch. I can say I know that feeling a little bit. I leaned more to the killer inside thoughts. I'm glad you are still here and so is everyone else.
I did have a gut feeling about a certain man at one time during her LTA. I just flat out asked her. She said no way was she interested in him. She did not end that sentence with "or anyone else." I guess I should have picked up on that. After her confession about her A, I asked about him again. I got the same answer. Who knows?
My WW gave up a good job at my request. She hardly goes anywhere without me. The only time she would have a chance to cheat is at lunch. I have some lunches with her and she always calls me if we don't meet. I really do not have any reason to be suspicious of her. Like you said, we get lazy and too secure.
I'm sure that she does not want to have another A. However, I will never agree to her having a job that would give her the total freedom to behave in that way. She is very attractive, dresses so very classy, and looks at least 10 years younger than she is. I have no doubt that if she was in the environment like before, she would have some men try to start something. Perhaps she knows better now, but I will not take that chance. I know I can't trust some of the men, always knew that. I thought I could trust her to just say no. You are correct, you have to have boundaries. In my case the saying, when the cats away, the mice will play, is so true. I also know that, when the mouse is away, the mouse can play.
To the tribe.
I want to wish everyone a happy Thanksgiving. I hope that all can have some peace during this holiday weekend.
Even when in despair and even though we have spouses who betrayed us, there is always something to be thankful for. Simple things. Family things. Getting out of bed each day.
My wish for you all is that you find that little (or big) thing to be thankful for.
Today, some people cannot believe, but I do forgive the OM. I dwelled for months about how I was going to kill or hurt him... today, not a single thought like that... just what was my thoughts. I hope and want him and his wife to somehow find peace. I never felt such hatred for an individual. My friend saved my life that day.(he's the bird.. lol) Not long after that, I made a decision to forgive the OM. I read this book, Total Forgiveness by R.T. Kendall… and practiced it.
It’s hard to live in today… I’m not sure if my image is a flashback of feelings or what… or why I even wanted to do it… Maybe to show others you can survive with those feelings… it just takes time and a decision to want it.
Tonight, we are going out for some fun at the casino, listen to the band, and she told me get ready for something special later!
I am thankful for such good friends. I am thankful I some how have made it through all this safely. I am thankful my family is together. Everyone try and have a happy Thanksgiving… Peace!!
[This message edited by trynhard at 3:32 PM, November 25th (Wednesday)]
found this online today. Guess I need to commit it to memory...
Hope everyone had a peaceful holiday, and some good eating!! LOL! I sure did.
Life really is what we decide to make it. If happiness can't be found where you are, then maybe it's time to move ahead, or else make some sort of peace with the past and then finally let it go! Letting it go doesn't mean you've forgiven or forgotten. It's just that it's over and done with and today is a new day, and your chance to decide how you want to live it! Sure hope you find some hope and peace...
Same to everyone else... sending you happy thoughts and hoping for a peaceful holiday season for all!
I am woman, hear me ROAR!!
What you accept, you teach!
Me 53, WS 54
Reconciled for life!
DD 24, DS 27