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User Topic: BS Questions for WS"s III
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 10:15 AM, December 3rd (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Long story short: 3 months ago I learned my husband was having an ea/pa with a coworker for the past 14 mos. The relationship was still going strong when I found the texts. He agreed to break it off with her - she transferred locations (she still works & resides nearby), but I found that she gave him a cell phone and they had been in phone contact for about 2 weeks after Dday until I found the phone. I know this OW - not well - but I know enough. She is an objectively attractive, sexy, happy-go lucky kind of person (which I am not - especially not now)who made it clear to him that she wants him back when they spoke on the phone. (He denies having seen her).Some days I think he is nc & somedays I think he is not. I am trying to R & I think we've been pretty successful, but I still feel threatened by this person - I know she wants him & I feel that he isnt able to resist her & it's only a matter of time before he breaks nc again. My take on the A is that I nagged my husband, didnt make him feel appreciated or loved (primarily because I was overwhelmed by the demands of my job & 4 young children) - there were good times too - but I guess the bad overshadowed the good. When I asked him about breaking nc he told me that he thought that they could be friends. To this day, he maintains that he could, but that he wouldnt break nc again because he knows he would lose me. (When I pointed out that he knew this the 1st time he broke nc he said well, now I know with your "never ending investigation" that you would find out if I did). He claims he didn't love her (tho he told her he did on a few occasions)and is not experiencing any withdrawal or anything. It really bothers me that he doesnt understand why they cant just be friends because to me, it's evidence of him deluding himself or bsing me and my wh is the kind of person who doesn't choose his actions based upon what other people tell him to do -including me obviously. Any thoughts from the WS perspective? (My ws does not discuss his feelings much to begin with & he, of course, loathes this topic - feels that us just getting along & spending more time together will be enough.)


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 10:34 AM, December 3rd (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Allgoodnamesgone -

The first, and most important, thing to understand is that the A was not about what you think it was.

It was NOT about the OW. And it was certainly NOT about how you were treating your WH. Early on post D-Day, it's not uncommon for the fog to linger for a while and for a WS to still blame others for their actions instead of owning it themselves. So if this is the feedback you are getting from your WH, you need to remember it is coming through your WH's inaccurate view of reality.

The desire to hang on to the "friendship" afterward is normal. While I went NC after D-Day, I asked my BW for permission to have a "goodbye and closure" dinner with xMOW. It was one of the biggest mistakes I ever made. It hurt my BW deeply, and it really didn't help my own recovery process.

The healing process for your WH needs to be about him "affair proofing" himself from any potential OW, not just the one you are dealing with right now. Yes, total NC is a must. He must detox from the OW to see clearly. But he also needs to work through IC to determine why he allowed himself to travel down the slippery slope in the first place. It wasn't about you. It was about something within himself that was broken. That's the answer he needs to find.

NC = No New Hurts. He needs to get that clear in his head first and foremost.

He's not experiencing withdrawal? He hasn't allowed himself to go through it. The broken NC ensured that. He needs to go for a prolonged, sustained period of time with NC to get through the healing process.

Have you shared information from here with him? It's worth sharing key things to help him learn. There's great stuff in the Healing Library for starters.

You may also want to leverage a book to help the conversation along. My BW and I read "After the Affair" together, and discussed each chapter as we each completed it. This helped us both understand where the other was coming from, and surface the issues that needed to be addressed.

It also never hurts for any WS to at least read the Wayward Forum here. Even better if they can participate. I have done a lot of searching over time, and I still have yet to find any other resource pnline for WS's who want to R that encourages the right behaviors and holds a WS accountable for their actions in a way that isn't belittling. It is the only safe resource I've found to enable healing to happen.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Nicki519
♀ Member
Member # 26311
Default  Posted: 12:09 PM, December 3rd (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ListeningClosly

Thank you for your answer! I do understand what your telling me, and how A can spiral out of control


BS, Me, 41
WH, 41
Married 12yrs, Together 17yrs
D-day #1 May 25, 2009
D-day #2 June 21, 2009
8 yr old Son
19 yr old Step Daughter
In Recovery

Posts: 226 | Registered: Nov 2009 | From: The South
BoardPearl
♀ Member
Member # 25463
Default  Posted: 1:52 PM, December 3rd (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I was just reading Hufi-Pufi's post on trickle truth. Before that I read a blog about perfection. And how we try and hide the truth of who we are. But who does it serve? We know the truth about ourselves, so how does it help us to keep everything to ourselves. This can certainly pertain to betrayal.

I wonder what is behind the wanting to lie? My WH says it was because he didn't want to hurt me but I know he's still with her and lying (we have had a LDR for almost a year and a half and that's when things started happening, but now I don't trust the whole marriage). It is one hundred times more devastating to be lied to than actually falling in love with someone else, and he doesn't get this.

What are some of the fears behind this, so I can understand him better? Have you felt better after coming 100% clean. Has it healed both of you?

Why save the hurt, instead of telling the BS? It must feel actually good to come completely clean no matter what.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can shed some light on this. I know it's individual and we all have our stories, but there must be some underlying fear.


Posts: 1114 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: Europe
Sandcrab
♀ Member
Member # 10067
Default  Posted: 3:27 PM, December 3rd (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I wonder what is behind the wanting to lie?

It is not that there is a "want" to lie, there is a "want" to be the person that your spouse thinks you are.

I didn't want to lie, I lied because I didn't want to hurt my husband, I didn't want to loose my husband, I was embarrassed about what I did, there are a lot of emotions that go along with the wanting to come clean but not wanting to hurt anyone including yourself.

Have you felt better after coming 100% clean.

Yes, I feel so much better. I use to have migranes and my stomach was torn up, just knowing that I hadn't told the whole truth. Now that I have I don't have the migranes and I don't have the upset stomach. My conscience is clear and I don't have to worry about anything else coming to light.

Why save the hurt, instead of telling the BS?

I guess you are talking about the hurt the BS feels? I tried to shield my husband from the hurt by lying. I didn't want to hurt him and I didn't want to loose him. If I had told him everything at once in the beginning the hurt would have been so overwhelming that he would have left and not even considered trying R. I am sorry for causing the hurt over and over again by TT but I felt I had to to keep my husband. He did confirm that he would have left had he found out everything at once.


I ♥ LostJim

Adopt a chihuahua in your area
http://adopt-a-chihuahua.adoptapet.com/


Posts: 5618 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: wishing I was on an ocean beach somewhere...
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Content  Posted: 3:41 PM, December 3rd (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you Listeningclosely & Sandcrab for shedding some light on the thought process. I really do appreciate all the WS's who respond - it really is a lifesaver sometimes.


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
BoardPearl
♀ Member
Member # 25463
Default  Posted: 5:02 PM, December 3rd (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank You Sandcrab.

I think I can understand his intentions much better with your post. It helps. Whatever circumstance. I have been able to somewhat forgive and we are amicable but all the feelings come up and it's nice to know the psychology behind everything. I should talk to him because he does have a heart problem and if he has to live with guilt, it's not good for him. If he comes clean he can deal with it ok.

[This message edited by BoardPearl at 5:07 PM, December 3rd (Thursday)]


Posts: 1114 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: Europe
MelisssaZZZ
♀ Member
Member # 25953
Default  Posted: 6:51 AM, December 4th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi, everyone. appologies if something very similar has already been asked.

Condensed story: H has 2y A. I discovered it in march 09. He said he broke it of, but then I found out them speaking in the end of May 09. After that there has been 2-3 emails exhanged, 1 meeting in aug (the details are in my profile) to tell her its over.

Now he tells me he felt very close to her. I understand they had/ have some kind of bond. But how big?? I have hard time of understanding how close, as he met her once every 2-3 weeks in hotel rooms for few hours. He used different name for her and lied to her about pretty much everything. (he did say i exist though). pretended to be someone more succesful etc etc.

So now (yesterday), he still says he misses her. That he is thinking of leaving me every day. That he does not love me. when i ask him that maybe OW is his soulmate and he should try to build life with her he answers - no. That he will probably be happy for few weeks and he does not want to lose his family over this. He also says that he feels very hurt about the fact she cheated on him with 5-6 people while they were 'dating'... (some of them he discovered about and some of them i discovered as i did serious snooping on her internet activity when i found out about A). she is very unfortunate girl, 16 at the time of start of A. abused by her relatives and now mixed up in her head - fulfilling peoples fantasies just to feel loved (I think). expresses herself via sex. anyways seems she is borderline prostitute by choice. and enjoying it

His tune has somewhat shifted during the last months at least now he blames me for less... previously he blamed me for absolutely everything (to the point that i 'made' him to go to holidays which he hated???).

I am just starting to get very impatient with all of this. Maybe someone can tell me when the 'fog' lifts and when is he expected to get his mind back?

he now withdraws from me and clearly still has withdrawal symptoms from her. only times when i can have any intimate discussions is when we discuss the things i have done incorrectly or hurtfully (there of course have been some, but nothing remotely close to his behaviour). is there a light in the end of the tunner here? or should i just let him to distroy his life completely (he got fired last december (still unemployed), i suspect because he imagined he is a 'God' as she made him feel that way. and noone in his workplace tried to tolerate this as much as I have...)? is it possible he will ever be happy with me again?

Many many thanks for the responses...


Me BS - 37
WH 39
1 child - 4yrs
married 5 yrs, together 7
DD1 midmarch 09
DD2 early june 09
some more DD's of course - cannot bother to list
LTA (2 yrs) fully?? finished mid Aug 09
Status: Divorced Oct 2011

Posts: 1199 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: London, UK
Phoenix519
♀ Member
Member # 26186
Default  Posted: 7:38 AM, December 4th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sandcrab. Thank you for your honest responses. I am a BS 6 1/2 months out from d-day and this is what I continue to struggle with. *Why my FWS lied to me after I found out.* Your explanations make so much sense and seem so heartfelt and I appreciate the peace of mind I now have to start my day.

Posts: 581 | Registered: Nov 2009
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 8:55 AM, December 4th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MelisssaZZZ -

He's definitely foggy. Look at the classic signs:

Still harboring feelings of affection for the OP.

Feelings of jealousy over the OP "cheating on him" (I know, ironic huh?)

Statements of a lack of love for the BS.

Blameshifting and placing blame for the choices he made on you.

While there is no single path to breaking a WS' fog, I can offer you this. It was when I was challenged the most that I was forced to see reality and clear my fog. At a minimum, I think you need to start with a full on 180. He needs to experience exactly what he is risking losing with his thought process in order to make his choices.

Once he has to face that impact, I think you will see a change in his approach. Always remember that you have every right to pursue a life with a spouse who will love and respect you. If your WH can be that man, fine. If not, you are not obligated to put up with it any longer than you already have.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
MelisssaZZZ
♀ Member
Member # 25953
Default  Posted: 9:12 AM, December 4th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TBH I dont think 180 will work with him. it would achieve opposite reaction i am pretty sure of this. that is the only reason i have not implemented it as yet.

so, i will not use 180. unless i decide i really cannot take it anymore and then it will be divorce not 180 .

he is slowly, slowly making progress. but it is such a slow process...

I guess it is naive to ask whether there is anything else apart from 180 which might help?


Me BS - 37
WH 39
1 child - 4yrs
married 5 yrs, together 7
DD1 midmarch 09
DD2 early june 09
some more DD's of course - cannot bother to list
LTA (2 yrs) fully?? finished mid Aug 09
Status: Divorced Oct 2011

Posts: 1199 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: London, UK
beach
♀ Member
Member # 7533
Default  Posted: 9:34 AM, December 4th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MelisssaZZZ,
I would say, yes, if he is jealous or hurt by xOW's cheating on him, he is still thinking of him and xOW as a couple....
I also agree, it sounds like, 180 is not an option, he will probably, think that since you are cold, he will use it as more excuse to go to xOW.
Even if he left you for her, it also sounds like she will keep cheating on him.

Just tell him that you are starting filing for D paper on Monday and have it ready for him to sign it and he will probably jump off the fence.

It shook me off.

[This message edited by beach at 9:35 AM, December 4th (Friday)]


If you don't find peace with yourself, you cannot find anywhere else.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.

Posts: 8680 | Registered: Jul 2005 | From: midwest
MelisssaZZZ
♀ Member
Member # 25953
Default  Posted: 10:24 AM, December 4th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

thanks! my gut feeling (like I can trust it at all these days :() says that if I tell him to leave and to serve D papers he will leave no problems. he will wake up weeks/months after this.

which will be too late for me because by then i will not want all of this shit back in my life.

this is why i am being as patient as i am. i can see slow slow recovery. but it is a torture.. ironic, but his main reason for staying in marrige was: 'so Melisssazz doesnot have a chance to badmouth WH to DD (she is 9 months old, like i could even if i wanted to!!)

Beach - thank you - you put it perfectly (wish i would be able to actually put words to what i am thinking of). he will think i am cold and he will run to her or maybe even just sulk alone.

All our lifes together he claims i have made him do things. like to propose to me, to get married, to have a baby, to work the job he did, to got to holidays etc etc. therefore i am reluctant to talk about how I feel on this (meaning that I dont feel i should communicate that I am reaching my limits on this - this communication he will just call yet 'another ultimatum'). I will just go for D...

Thanks guys - glad that you found your way out of the fog


Me BS - 37
WH 39
1 child - 4yrs
married 5 yrs, together 7
DD1 midmarch 09
DD2 early june 09
some more DD's of course - cannot bother to list
LTA (2 yrs) fully?? finished mid Aug 09
Status: Divorced Oct 2011

Posts: 1199 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: London, UK
beach
♀ Member
Member # 7533
Default  Posted: 10:45 AM, December 4th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Melisssa, I understand that you don't want to use D as a threat. It is hard to forecast, or control what he would do.

Sounds like his staying M is doing you a favor? oh puhlease...

I am not sure how D process works and how expensive to just file D and not actually complete.

I really thought that he was going to file D and I got scared. He also said, even if he let me leave for xOM, if he found out that I go out and parting all night long with xOM, he will call child protective service and make my life to hell. And you never know that xOM might cheat on me. He gave me all kinds of hypothetical statement and it made sense to me. At the same time, having a double life took toll on me, my identity crisis and core self. I was empty inside. I didn't want my kids (they were teen) to find out my A.

I knew that xOM and I were not meant to be. xOM didn't want to be together to have family. It was really time for me to let go.

It took a while to come out.

[This message edited by beach at 10:52 AM, December 4th (Friday)]


If you don't find peace with yourself, you cannot find anywhere else.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.

Posts: 8680 | Registered: Jul 2005 | From: midwest
Grinder
♀ Member
Member # 21322
Default  Posted: 12:38 PM, December 4th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

has anyone confronted the OW? I have been reading a long time but this site is so vast! Sorry if these experiences can be found elsewhere. i am sure the question has been asked before. I want to know what WH is telling her to make her hang around? He says "She loves me". most of their contact must take place during happy hour time. He is home every nite and weekends. Doesn't travel. WTF. He left her and moved home 5 months ago and she is still hanging around??? Why? He is home living his life with his wife and family. Should i meet with her to compare stories and find out why she continues to pursue a man that dumped her? (I understand he responds and is still doing what he can to keep her on a string but still!!?? I know I'm invested because of 23 years and 3 kiddos. What could her story possibly be???)


"Midway upon the journey of life, I found myself within a forest dark For the straightforward path had been lost" Dante

Posts: 105 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: Valley of the Sun
Grinder
♀ Member
Member # 21322
Default  Posted: 2:22 PM, December 4th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

and another question:

What shook you out of the fog?

Some of the things WH says to me is mind blowing!

"They are in love. He is in love with me too. He can't stay away from either of us because the feelings are so strong." But he refuses to acknowledge the idea of addiction, even after reading here, fischer's book, etc, he says he is different and no one understands that "they are special". What is my best course of action? Wait? Stay away? How long will that take? Give up? I wish there was rehab facilities for this. He is a classic addict but his drug is excitement induced dopamine. And to top it off, he has convinced himself that their love must really be so special because he can't face what he has really done to those he loves and promised to protect. He was once the most honest,caring self-sacrificing man I ever knew. Where did he go? Will he ever return? Is there anything anyone can do to help him be found, by me or himself?


"Midway upon the journey of life, I found myself within a forest dark For the straightforward path had been lost" Dante

Posts: 105 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: Valley of the Sun
lovedance
♀ Member
Member # 25294
Default  Posted: 4:27 PM, December 4th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MY WH just took with him NOT JUST FRIENDS when he picked up the boys for the weekend. Is that a good sign that fog may be lifting? I don't want to get my hopes up. Also, how did that book help any other WS and do you think it would do anything to help in the fog if he actually read it? "It is highlighted for his convenience and mine. "


Me-29
WH-31
OW-21
D-day #1 3/2/09
Separated off and on until 12/31/09 when A ended, WH moved home and NC started
Trying to R...I can tell he is starting to "get it."
I left 2/10 and he filed for D 6/10. Only a few more days until it is

Posts: 158 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: CA
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 4:48 PM, December 4th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Grinder -

he says he is different and no one understands that "they are special". What is my best course of action?

We Waywards are very predictable; we use the same handbook. We all say the same things, think the same way. I thought that I was special, that my affair was different. Even after being on this site for a few months, I was convinced that my issues were different, that my behavior was an aberration of my character. It took a lot of therapy and talking with my husband for me to realize that I was just another Wayward.

What can you do? Don't let him have his cake and eat it. If his love with the other woman is so special, he can go be with her. There is no way that you can control him back to you. You cannot threaten, cajole, beg enough to get him back. He's his own person, he makes his own decisions.

But, so are you. You make your decisions. Don't threaten. Just throw him out. Work on yourself. Get a new haircut, buy some new clothes. Or, go out to coffee with girlfriends. Do things for yourself.

If this is truly an exit affair - there is nothing you can do to "get him back". If this is not an exit affair (and most are not), he will come back. He will come back sooner if you throw him out and work on yourself. Trust me on this.

At that point, you can set up your conditions for his return.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 4:57 PM, December 4th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Grinder -
has anyone confronted the OW?

I believe you want BS input on this question. Why don't you ask this in "General"?

"Confronting the OP" does not apply to Waywards.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 4:59 PM, December 4th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MZ -

my gut feeling (like I can trust it at all these days :() says that if I tell him to leave and to serve D papers he will leave no problems. he will wake up weeks/months after this.


If this is not acceptable and the 180 is not acceptable, then you really do not have any options other than watch him recover slowly, if ever.

My husband told me he would file for divorce and take the kids away. That's what woke me up.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
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