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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS"s III
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 12:06 AM, October 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

iwantamiracle -

so how can this love be over just because i found out..

You are not being ignored. I think most of us are not able to answer this question. Had I not been found out, I don't think my affair would have lasted more than a few months, so I have no idea...


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
TICKED OFF
♀ Member
Member # 8291
Default  Posted: 2:27 AM, October 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How can the ws tell the bs that they loved the bs even during their a with another person, yet upon getting caught, immediately dump the op whom they had just had an intimate and emotional realtionship with? Isn't this hypocrisy at it's finest? I mean, first the ws just throws the bs under the bus, then as quick as a blink of an eye, they throw the op under the bus? I just can't understand how the ws can just toss everyone aside for their own good. Isn't there any loyalty to any of the parties involved whether it be the bs or the op?



Posts: 2386 | Registered: Sep 2005
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 7:28 AM, October 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TICKEDOFF -

How can the ws tell the bs that they loved the bs even during their a with another person, yet upon getting caught, immediately dump the op whom they had just had an intimate and emotional realtionship with? Isn't this hypocrisy at it's finest? I mean, first the ws just throws the bs under the bus, then as quick as a blink of an eye, they throw the op under the bus? I just can't understand how the ws can just toss everyone aside for their own good. Isn't there any loyalty to any of the parties involved whether it be the bs or the op?

This question gets asked a lot in various forms. This is just my opinion, but I doubt you will ever truly understand how a WS feels because you are not facing the same issues that they are. Just like a WS can never understand the pain a BS feels (unless they become the victim of an RA, but even then it's different), a BS is unlikely to understand what a WS is going through.

We see the analogy here all the time of a drug or alcohol addict. And honestly that's how it felt to me. There was a need inside me that I allowed to trump my own personality and common sense. The only way I can describe it is that I was not "me" while I was in my A. And at the core, regardless of the words spoken at the time, love was not a component of the A. Filling a gap that only I could fill myself in the end was the reason for the intensity. But it was not about love.

Have I loved my BW for the 24+ years we have been together? Absolutely. What happened to that love during my A? I selfishly placed it aside and focused at the big voice screaming inside me about my failings instead of listening to the smaller, more consistent voice trying to guide me to the right choices.

If you've ever watched someone trash their life by being strung out on drugs, then you'll see similar symptoms. Because the drug is powerful enough to scream at them, they set aside family, friends, careers - everything that matters to get their fix. Do they know better? Of course they do. But the draw of the drug is strong and the addict is weak in character.

An A is not about love. It is about looking to fill an unmet need within the WS. It is also the lazy way to approach it. When you feel like you have no value, it takes a lot less effort to find someone who will praise the smallest thing you do than to be strong enough to ignore your critics and have the conviction to know when you are making the right choices. What the WS doesn't see until it is too late is that the easy way is also a temporary solution and cannot be sustained. It will always collapse under it's own weight.

Is it hypocrisy? Yes. But the greater hypocrisy is that the WS turns on themselves, ignoring who they are meant to be and allowing themselves to become something far less.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
leftoolate
♀ Member
Member # 22658
Default  Posted: 8:02 AM, October 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Ticked Off, you sound like you're indeed roayally ticked off. Hope you're alright... As for yor questions:

How can the ws tell the bs that they loved the bs even during their a with another person, yet upon getting caught, immediately dump the op whom they had just had an intimate and emotional realtionship with?

The 'trick' was in strictly separating my husband and the other person in my mind, especially while I was with my husband. It worked, too. I can only recall one instance where I was really reminded of the OM while I was in the room with my husband. Otherwise, I could mention him in passing, but I didn't really think of him while my husband was around. And yes, I always loved my husband, so that's what I told him.

Whatever I felt for the OM, it was never more than friendship before the affair and never more than infatuation during the affair. The actions were intimat, but the supposedly corresponding emotion just wasn't there. So I'm very relieved that I was stopped before my feelings caught up to my actions. Perhaps the choice would still have been obvious, but now it was easy as well (the decision, that is - the follow through was not that smooth, sorry to say). So, the obvious answer is to never compare feelings until forced and then make the instinctive choice (which will often be for the betrayed spouse). There probably are many more nuanced possibilities...


Isn't this hypocrisy at it's finest?

Yes, it is. It's not even the lying, I did and do love him, after all. It's the way I tried to have it both ways on so many levels. I shouldn't have looked for both exclusivity and promiscuity, sustainment and entertainment, warmth and anonimity, etc. It was lunacy (no, I'm not blaming it on the moon, I'm trying to convey the surreality of the whol thing). The hypocrisy was in trying to act all innocent while knowing full well that it's all wrong.

I mean, first the ws just throws the bs under the bus, then as quick as a blink of an eye, they throw the op under the bus?

Yes, see the first two 'answers'. I didn't consider the affair to be abandonment, at least until I started to notice the widening distance between us. Also I figured the other man had no rights or standing (I applied this to myself as well). As long as I avoided a good look at myself, my actions and the harm I was doing, I didn't even realize I was hurting anyone, throwing anyone under anything. Ugh.

I just can't understand how the ws can just toss everyone aside for their own good.

Pretty amazing, isn't it. The first twenty years of my life I didn't have a real self image. Then, I started looking, slowly, at tiny little bits of me at a time, appraising them, valuing them. This really took flight when I discovered a home management system that helped me figure myself out. By that time I was twenty eight and working on loving myself, from the outside in. And then I went astray and got greedy - me, mine, grab, take. It's not right, I know. I knew it even then, but I'd screwed up my heart with some vision of entitlement. I felt I deserved some fun - which was how I tried to view the affair. Some fun :-(. The point is I was trying to fill up my own emptiness without establishing a firm base first. I pulled in everything I could and threw them into that big hole, selfish and stupid both.

Isn't there any loyalty to any of the parties involved whether it be the bs or the op?

Loyalty has always been one of my core values. I only realized recently that loyalty requires trust which requires dependability which requires honesty which requires openness which requires awareness which requires attention. I just never got that far, not in time. As for the other man, well, he 'only' deserves my loyalty as a human being, and my compassion as a fellow screw up. He doesn't have the merits for anything above the basics - and as far as respect goes he's sunk quite a bit as far as I'm concerned.

I realize that it's very unsatisfactory to see that all it really took was rigid ignorance. I'm sorry. ListeningClosely did a great job explaining.

~L.

[This message edited by leftoolate at 8:10 AM, October 9th (Friday)]


If you came this far, you're looking for something. - Jrazz

Posts: 811 | Registered: Jan 2009 | From: Europe
Jessy1501
♀ Member
Member # 24483
Default  Posted: 8:16 AM, October 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for the response listeningclosely...and yes, I mean BS, not WS


Attempting to give a fuck: ███████████████████] 99% Complete...ERROR!: Unable to give a fuck.

Posts: 5893 | Registered: Jun 2009 | From: My own fantasy land
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 10:11 AM, October 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

unexpectedsong: thank you for the response


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
QUEENOFDENIAL
♀ Member
Member # 23448
Default  Posted: 11:49 AM, October 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I posted this in General but maybe I can get more help here.

First let me say, I believe my FWS is trying hard, being honest and seems truly remorseful. The first real NC started yesterday. She says she loves me and wants to spend her life with me but when I asked for NC she became tearful/upset. When I asked why, she said she knew she would never be able to talk to OP again. She has been talking with OP everyday many times a day in the last two weeks because she knew NC was coming. She says she knows that is not right and is going to talk to her counselor about it.
She wants me, loves me, is working hard on R and knows she doesn't want the other person. She even told the OP she wants to be with me.
Despite all this her need for OP is real and it scares the life out of me.

I need help here. The OP helped my FWS tear my world apart and hurt me more than anything in my life ever has. My FWS has always been very protective of me. If someone hurt me, even family or close friends, she immediatly jumped to my defense. In this case if the OP had beat me then gutted me with a knife and left me bleeding on the floor,it still wouldn't be equivalent to the pain I felt.. OP was my FWS's best friend and supposed to be a good friend to me which doubled the betrayal.

I am trying to understand her side and believe in her but this is really really difficult for me.


BS 42(me)
FWS 40
Together 18years, 6m EA into 18m PA
D Day 03/20/09 Trust died and so did a part of me.
NC 10/08/09
R 10/09/09
We promise according to our hopes, and perform according to our fears.

Posts: 110 | Registered: Mar 2009
EmptyCup
♀ Member
Member # 22909
Default  Posted: 12:01 PM, October 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Queen - this is the fog, the withdrawal. I don't think any of what you wrote is even all that uncommon. I know your post could have been about me right after d-day.

The good news - your WS is being very honest with you and had expressed that she wants to be with you. Just be careful. Even the best-intentioned WS can break NC when the withdrawal gets to be too much. Do whatever you need to to make sure NC is kept and over time your WS should come out of the fog and see the A for what it really was.

It took me a few months to understand that the OP wasn't even really a friend, since friends don't come between you and your spouse. It wasn't until I came out of the fog that I saw he had just been using me, just as I had been using him. I thought he was my best friend. Unfortunately, it can take time for a WS to see that.


FWW, reconciled with my best friend <3

Nothing much but love to give you, even less have I to hide - Tim O'Brien


Posts: 1140 | Registered: Feb 2009
capri
♀ Member
Member # 14940
Default  Posted: 12:10 PM, October 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Can someone explain to me the complete lack of emotion on the part of my fwh? Over the years, I have seen mostly anger at me, very little tenderness, no light in the eyes, no smiling when he sees me, no grief at the realization that his multiple and lt ea's have hurt me, no recognition that the ugly things he's said about me to people are hurtful-- he sort of shrugs it off and explains it away, saying these things, and informs me 'no they don't think that of you,' even after reporting their exact words of what they think of me. I see no reaction, no grief, nothing, when I say this marriage is dying, when I tell him it's going to end in divorce.

I have seen real emotion, upset, grief, sorrow, from him, at losing his forwards with ow3, at losing his lt e-mail relationship with ow1. I heard real emotion, pain, hurt, in his voice, when he told me how ow2 just disappeared on him one day, not having told him where her new job was.

By contrast, when I say we're heading toward D, I get a flat monotone, "Yes, I care." When I ask why he's married to me, I get a sort of shrug and "Because despite it all, I still love you." When I ask why, I get a vague list, never with any real emotion, never with the specifics he can apply to all the ugly things he's said about me. He spent a year sleeping on the couch, and never once expressed any concern about it or asked what could he do to heal this? (I let him back the day he finally answered my questions about ow1 without shouting at me.)

He says nothing he does is good enough: he's now helping with the housework, he buys me flowers (he always did, through the 13+ years of multiple lt ea's, and running me down to other women, anyway), buys me birthday gifts. He keeps saying obviously he cares about my feelings because he 'quit the behavior.' At the same time, he still dismisses these relationships as not that big a deal, acts like I'm blowing it all out of proportion.

I have asked for certain things over the years, maybe 7 or 8 total, such as doing Retrouvaille follow-ups weekends or discussions together; for time together; for kind words and e-mails; for him to come here and talk to some other people who have been in his shoes; to read the book Not Just Friends. He informs me he doesn't want to do those things, or that they wouldn't have made any difference anyway; or he just keeps saying he's trying. (He's been 'trying' to read the book for 2-1/2 years, probably hasn't opened it in over 18 months.)

I feel the flowers and housework and gifts are going through a checklist: this is what women want, I'll do it, then she'll leave me alone.

He has never really admitted any serious wrongdoing, just sort of shrug, okay, it was stupid and hurtful. Sorry. Shrug. But you're blowing it out of proportion.

Some days, I believe this complete lack of emotion is what I read here from the WS's, the inability to face himself and what he's done, and I wonder if patience and compassion are the right answers. But we're now at over 3 years since he went nc with the last of these women, and it's not getting much better. (He still lies to me about other things, for instance.)

Other days, I think I'm an idiot, and it's fairly obvious he's just placating me until the kids are old enough that he doesn't have to pay child support.

Can any WS give me any insight into this complete flatline lack of emotion?


Me: free of the secrets and lies!!!
Divorced 10/2011

Posts: 4483 | Registered: Jun 2007
EmptyCup
♀ Member
Member # 22909
Default  Posted: 12:19 PM, October 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Capri -

I'm sorry, it sounds so painful and it's been going on for so long.

Are you willing to live like this for the rest of your life? If not, I think you need to draw a line in the sand. I would insist on IC/MC. I can't tell from reading your post whether he's just going through the motions or has some deeper issues that are keeping him from opening up to you, but some good counseling would help in either case.

But only you can decide whether or not you'll divorce him if he doesn't take some visible steps towards changing things, and I think counseling is the step that's needed here.

(((Capri)))


FWW, reconciled with my best friend <3

Nothing much but love to give you, even less have I to hide - Tim O'Brien


Posts: 1140 | Registered: Feb 2009
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 12:19 PM, October 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

QUEENOFDENIAL -

Despite all this her need for OP is real and it scares the life out of me.

First, I'm sorry you are facing all of this and struggling for answers.

Ultimately, there is something missing in your FWS that she thought the OP could fulfill. Going NC is highly scary to the FWS because whatever that need is will be stripped away before the FWS has developed the capabilities to cope with their need. In my case, I was giving up ego stroking that offset my own lack of self worth and need for others to define me as a "good guy" to feel good about myself. The day I went NC, I was faced with a low self esteem that I had driven even further into the ground, cut off contact from the people who artificially offset that low self esteem, and an incredibly hurt BW who I had no right to turn to for any positive feedback. I was gradually able through IC to find my inner strength while at the same time "getting over" the xMOW. But it was an extended process.

I do think SI could be a huge help for your FWS. Sharing and posting in the Wayward Forum when triggers hit or lack of ability to cope is still present would be a healthy way for her to work through those issues.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
capri
♀ Member
Member # 14940
Default  Posted: 1:44 PM, October 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you, Empty Cup. We've been to 2 mc's, both of whom fwh lied to. He has seen an IC on and off for about 3 years now. I suspect most of that time, he lied to the IC, too, proving he was just fine. Last January, he must have finally been a little more honest, because the guy decided fwh needed to set up another dozen appointments that time. When things got more peaceful around here, fwh quit going again. And he never told me anything that happened there.

Barring change on his part, I expect to stay, at a maximum, till the youngest leaves home. That's still a ways off. No, I absolutely have no intention of living this way forever. It's more a question of will/can he change before I run out of patience. And I guess my patience wavers with what I think the truth is on a given day: is he emotionally broken or a scheming liar who is truly as lacking in emotions as he seems and just waiting for the kids to outgrow child support payments.


Me: free of the secrets and lies!!!
Divorced 10/2011

Posts: 4483 | Registered: Jun 2007
stuck808
♂ New Member
Member # 24976
Default  Posted: 3:19 PM, October 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have a question that's kind of similar to the one above.

In my W's A, she told me she made out with her boss twice, she bought him gifts, spent time at lunch with him, etc. yet she continues to deny that it was an A. Even an EA.

A year ago she told me flat out that she had feelings for this guy and wanted a D. I fought it and broke it up swearing that if she ever ended up with this guy she'd never see the kids again.

Since that time she's went from a sweet woman to an angry depressed individual who has since blamed me for everything and just flat told me that she wants a D because she has no "feelings" for me and doesn't want them back. No other reason. Just that the feelings are gone.

She has shown no remorse and prefers to gloss over everything, including my hurt, by saying that it doesn't matter because she has no feelings for me.

Is it normal for the WS to hate their BS? Or could it be that she's denying to herself what's happening? She's suffered from low self-esteem and has no friends which is why she regretted breaking up with the guy because he was one of her only friends. But now she's bent on destroying our friendship as well.

Could she still be in the fog and is refusing to see her own part of this?


Posts: 27 | Registered: Jul 2009
stuck808
♂ New Member
Member # 24976
Default  Posted: 3:21 PM, October 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh yeah and she still works with this guy even though she doesn't work directly for him anymore.

She sees him every day but she insists they only talk strictly business. She refuses to leave her job saying that it doesn't matter because she has no feelings for me. Why does she hate me so much to drag me through this pain?


Posts: 27 | Registered: Jul 2009
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 4:04 PM, October 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

stuck808 -

She refuses to leave her job saying that it doesn't matter because she has no feelings for me

Have you 180-ed your wife? Why are you letting her stomp all over you like this?


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
stuck808
♂ New Member
Member # 24976
Default  Posted: 4:28 PM, October 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yes I have done a 180 and I really don't think she's pursuing this guy anymore. She's been pretty transparent and she doesn't call anyone or email anyone when she's home or over the weekend.

She just seems...numb. I don't know if it's the fog or what. It's as if she has no emotions when she's with me. Like she's just...existing.


Posts: 27 | Registered: Jul 2009
MissesJai
♀ Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 4:29 PM, October 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She refuses to leave her job saying that it doesn't matter because she has no feelings for me. Why does she hate me so much to drag me through this pain?

First off, she doesn't hate you. It feels that way, but she's stuck in the fog and has no intentions of coming out. Only you can stop her from doing this to you. How? Simple. 180 her. we teach people how to treat us and as long as you allow this, it will continue. when you're ready to stop it, then stop it.


FWW - 40
Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent...

Posts: 5525 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
stuck808
♂ New Member
Member # 24976
Default  Posted: 5:04 PM, October 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks MissesJai.

So what would be a 180? I've already stood up to her. Treat her nicely, etc. and told her I will not share her with another man.

I haven't been the one to initiate the D though. That's what she's been pushing for, but has made no real moves to do it herself even though she keeps saying she wants one cause we're over.


Posts: 27 | Registered: Jul 2009
oja825
Member
Member # 17449
Default  Posted: 7:36 PM, October 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

"A year ago she told me flat out that she had feelings for this guy and wanted a D. I fought it and broke it up swearing that if she ever ended up with this guy she'd never see the kids again. "

I am puzzled by this. It is wrong for either parent to threaten to keep their children from the other-- unless of course that parent is abusive, or a substance abuser, or lives an otherwise dangerous lifestyle. Why would you want to harm your wife's relationship with your children? Is she abusive?

It is possible she is in a fog, but it is also possible she truly is unhappy in your marriage. Maybe I don't know enough of your story but why would you hang on to someone who has clearly said she wants a divorce?

If my husband told me that he wanted a divorce, of course I would try to reason with him, work with him, but if ultimately he was unhappy and determined to leave, I would not try to force him to remain in a relationship with me, and I certainly would not blackmail him with never seeing his children again.

What if she hadn't had an affair, but told you she was unhappy in the marriage and wanted to leave? Would you have the same reaction?

I would never want to live with someone who hates me. I guess she could be in a fog, but some relationships really do go sour, people change, people grow apart, people realize they made a mistake in selecting their mate. Sadly this is just a fact of life.


Posts: 101 | Registered: Dec 2007
TICKED OFF
♀ Member
Member # 8291
Default  Posted: 8:06 PM, October 9th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks Listening, and Lefttoolate.......thank you very much.

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