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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS"s III
NeverWillAgain
♂ Member
Member # 25007
Default  Posted: 4:59 AM, September 18th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi H0ppy. I can understand how you are feeling, my BW was there too. She asked me to write it all out, and I did. We burnt it afterward, but as a ceremony of forgiveness instead of destroying the evidence.

I think your idea of having him write it out is spot on. Have you given him questions you need answered? Think about those, it may help him start the process. But, I suspect he is dragging his feet. Nobody wants to revisit their mistakes. But, in the case of infidelity, too bad! That is the price of the betrayal.

I think you may want to do the 180 (healing library, upper left yellow box, look in the BS FAQ's) Since you are feeling like you are getting nowhere and may need to move on, it is something you need to understand to help you. It also may just help him figure out you are serious. If he really wants R, he will come around. If not, you will be prepared to move on. It has to be followed exactly! That can be tough, and it adds more confusion to the process if it isn't. Read it carefully and decide if it is what you want to do. If it is, do it right!

What you are asking is not unreasonable. You need answers and he must provide them, talk openly and help you heal.

I wish you well and hope this turns around for you.

NWA


Trust is something you take for granted until you lose it...

Posts: 491 | Registered: Jul 2009
h0ppy
♀ Member
Member # 24581
Default  Posted: 11:18 AM, September 18th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you NeverWillAgain for the response. I have told him what I want but I'm not sure if I'm being clear enough. He tries to tell me that they just talked about old times (they knew each other when they were kids) and just random shit. He did the whole "just friends" thing in the beginning until he saw that I refused to buy into the crap and then admitted it had turned into more than friendly talk. That's what I need to know about! I need to know the depth of the conversations when it turned from just "old friends catching up" to when it all ended me seeing her sending texts telling him that she loves him and he's breaking her heart and that she thought he would make the "right choice" and chose her over me. He needs to explain to me how it got from just friends to THAT! He doesn't want to. He says he can't remember specific conversations. I tell him that I'm not asking for word for word. I just want to know the depth of the "relationship". It's driving me INSANE! I can't move forward with him without understanding. I'm starting to think he wants to keep his "special memories" (my words) to himself. I know he's ashamed, as he should be but I can't find the words to get through to him. I just soooo sick of living in limbo... I don't think that he sees that he's the one holding up our R. He just wants us to BE HAPPY! I can't BE HAPPY. Not until I get what I need...

Posts: 369 | Registered: Jun 2009 | From: Texas
EmptyCup
♀ Member
Member # 22909
Default  Posted: 11:28 AM, September 18th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

h0ppy- have you ever seen "Joseph's letter"?

http://www.network54.com/Realm/HealingHeart/Josephletter.html

I know some BS's have found it helpful in trying to explain to the WS why they need all the details.


FWW, reconciled with my best friend <3

Nothing much but love to give you, even less have I to hide - Tim O'Brien


Posts: 1140 | Registered: Feb 2009
h0ppy
♀ Member
Member # 24581
Default  Posted: 11:48 AM, September 18th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yes, I have seen it and have shared it with him. It was back during the "fog" and I hope he's past that stage now but I think I'll have him read it again to see if he "hears it" now. Thank you!

Posts: 369 | Registered: Jun 2009 | From: Texas
TICKED OFF
♀ Member
Member # 8291
Default  Posted: 2:50 PM, September 19th (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Does a ws truly believe that after being involved in an a and getting caught, that the bs is going to have the same feelings for them during sex? In other words, what exactly goes through the ws's mind when they have sex with their now bs and what does the ws thinks goes on in the mind of the bs?

Posts: 2390 | Registered: Sep 2005
NeverWillAgain
♂ Member
Member # 25007
Default  Posted: 4:06 PM, September 19th (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi TICKED OFF, I can't answer this in a generic sense, but I can answer from my own experience.

Does a ws truly believe that after being involved in an a and getting caught, that the bs is going to have the same feelings for them during sex? In other words, what exactly goes through the ws's mind when they have sex with their now bs and what does the ws thinks goes on in the mind of the bs?

Yes, but actually better and I'll explain. Sex before the A was just that, sex. We had been married for years and years. My idea of foreplay was "Can I have it?" BW's response was "I'll give you 5 minutes" or "Yea, I'll be a port in the storm." Sex was horrible for both of us and a reflection of our relationship. We were distant, didn't talk about anything but the mundane.

During the R, we went through phases. First the hysterical bonding hit. She was trying to compete with OW,felt I was comparing her to the OW, didn't want to lose me (even though I was NC and not going anywhere), and felt she needed to make me happy or else...

That phase passed and we became more settled. We were talking, but not well during the R (I was defensive) and after a meltdown, it would be passionate again. I think part of that was still HB, but part passion.

We are now in solid R. I feel very connected to her and tell her everything. I mean everything, from A things, to deep personal feelings. She also feels very connected to me. I wouldn't say sex is sex anymore, it really is love.

I know she doesn't think about anyone else. She has had enough empty relationships in her life. We really have a great base to build from. We both love each other. I don't think of anyone else either. I am totally focused on her. We talk, watch tv, hug, kiss, make love, hold each other, talk some more and share the night together. It is so much different than it used to be and so much better.

I think the key is the relationship. We are communicating daily, talking daily, doing things together and living the life we have both always wanted. I couldn't think of anything or anyone else I would rather be with. Not because of sex, but because we are together.

I hope this helps you. Just FYI, my BW has read this just before I posted and said she agrees with it.

NWA


Trust is something you take for granted until you lose it...

Posts: 491 | Registered: Jul 2009
TICKED OFF
♀ Member
Member # 8291
Default  Posted: 8:15 PM, September 19th (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

"Never" thank you for you answer. Now let me throw this in........do you think your bs or you would feel the same if you still lived next to the ow? Do you think you would be at the stage of r that you are at now or do you think it would put a snag in the final outcome?

P.S. It is awesome to hear of success stories such as yours.....I only wish I could be so lucky. Trying like hell, but there is still a snag somewhere.


Posts: 2390 | Registered: Sep 2005
NeverWillAgain
♂ Member
Member # 25007
Default  Posted: 11:18 PM, September 19th (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TO, yea, that would put a kink in the whole process. The OW lives about 5 miles away and that road is a trigger for BW at times. It used to be all the time.

When I mentioned this to her, she simply said "We'd be moving."

I think it would slow the process down quite a bit as the reminder is only a few feet away. I do think though, if we weren't able to move, we would probably find some way around it. I can't say for sure as that is a big problem. I really think that it still comes down to the relationship. A solid relationship has a much better chance of weathering such issues.

I hope that helps.

NWA


Trust is something you take for granted until you lose it...

Posts: 491 | Registered: Jul 2009
chasingpavements
♀ Member
Member # 24325
Default  Posted: 10:51 AM, September 21st (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I feel like R is going well with FWH and I can see that he's really trying to meet my needs. Lately, most of my uncertainties come from learning to manage in our "new" normal.

Anyway, the one thing that I still wonder about with FWH is his reluctance to discuss the A. He will answer questions that I ask honestly, without the defensiveness and anger that used to be there... but he will end any conversation about it with... Can we please put that in the past NOW?

I don't know what I'm expecting... that he'd have this sudden break through desire to just spill his guts to me about every little thing... I mean, he's told me before that he feels like he committed murder and I'm asking him to recount the tale when it's something he HATES to think about.

I guess I'm here asking if this is a normal feeling or something I should be worried about? If everything else is going the way it should in R... he's transparent, remorseful, full NC established ... should I be worried that this is still a subject he prefers to avoid? It's not a matter of me having unanswered questions... or feeling like he's blameshifting or hiding something from me... I just can't get wondering why he can't get past his aversion to discussing it in any manner...


"I personally believe "the one" - that special partner, the soul mate, that person that becomes intoxicated by love for us -
Well shoot, I think that the one that needs to feel that way is us, for ourselves."
wisdom from Healing Tree

Posts: 712 | Registered: Jun 2009
lostkale
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Member # 25482
Sad  Posted: 2:28 PM, September 21st (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm awfully confused. I'm incredibly hurt, angry, have intense feelings of wanting to retaliate and inflict pain back onto him; yet what I want most (usually) is for him to hold me, to feel the loving vibrations I feel when he holds me, and be intimate with him.

I'm left completely scared each time that in being with him I am in some way “rewarding” the A, although I need it. Like reassurance or something. I wish I could hold back, I wish I could force him to sleep on the couch for months in misery thinking of what he did and how painful it is for me; but all it does it hurt me even more when he is out there. I cant sleep without him, I have vicious nightmares and I just cant sleep. How is it that I feel safer in his arms when he is the one who did this to me? I'm so incredibly confused.

Did you and your BS continue being intimate after DDay? Did it hurt the healing path…or bring you even closer having shared the road of pain…?

Most people seem to not want to be touched by WS and I admit that when he does things to me that he did to her, I find myself having to work reallllllly hard to push that thought from my mind, trying to tell myself that whatever they did, it was never as intense and intimate as what we share, but it still bothers me. Am I nuts on that? Do you think about the OP and what you did with them? Wait, I don’t think I want that answer.

To “TMI” you even more and give a better understanding, before DDay I wasn’t like this. Everyday stressors and his lack of helping out left me feeling resentful and the last thing I wanted at the end of the day was to please him. His asking would frequently anger me after him sitting on the couch all night while I took care of all the household duties, the kids, and worked a part-time job at home in the evenings (I also have a fulltime job and a part-time Saturday job). I work all these because we have incredible debt accumulated for a number of reasons not relevant here, but the fact that he didn’t put forth extra effort as I did to rid us of the debt, AND didn’t help out at all around the house or with the kids left me very resentful. Not necessarily an excuse, but a reason. Everyday we were (somewhat) unconsciously pushing each other away. The only difference was that I didn’t long for anyone else. I longed for him to care for me the way I needed to be cared for. He looked outside of the marriage and that has left me feeling abandoned, alone, broken - even while he holds me. I feel confused by the comfort I feel in his arms.

So anyway, I guess that is why I worry SO much that wanting to be intimate with him now is “rewarding” his behavior given the lack of constant intimacy pre-DDay. It seems like he shouldn’t get any, but in all honesty, it isn’t about him. I want it. I need it. I need to feel close to him, wanted by him. I need to feel his remorse and his love; but that double edged sword is that I worry it isn’t forcing him into wading through the pain. I have no choice, the pain is there for me, ever present, on my mind all waking hours, and many sleeping hours through “dreams.” The pain is there when he holds me and it is there when we are being intimate. While I brush my teeth, I hurt. Even if I am thinking of something else, my heart is shattered and collected in the tips of my toes and I feel the pain constantly. Is this not allowing him to address the pain he caused me, to feel the pain, but teaching him that he can have his cake and eat it too?

Is it possible that in filling my need I am not allowing him to deal with what he needs to deal with? I do think he is remorseful, I just don’t want him to ever stop being remorseful. I want him to forever remember, as will I, the pain he inflicted on me and our family. I never want him to forget his indiscretions. EVER. I want him to be bothered by them, to hurt from them, and I worry that allowing our love to flow isn’t helping with that, but I might be wrong. I worry it is keeping him in the fog, though he claims to be out of it and his actions as far as family life, helping out, have changed a great deal since DDay and most definitely add to my desire to be intimate with him.

Gosh I'm rambling like crazy….

Thanks everyone for your insight.


BW 31
WH 28 (Sorry Sack)
Married 8 years, together 13
D-Day - 8/30/09
Trickle truth....
Real D-Day (I think its all out now?) 9/19/09
MOW - "A dear friend" of mine...in my house...while I was sleeping...once in the same room
Kids - 2

Posts: 75 | Registered: Sep 2009
Sandcrab
♀ Member
Member # 10067
Default  Posted: 2:37 PM, September 21st (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

lostkale:

Did you and your BS continue being intimate after DDay? Did it hurt the healing path…or bring you even closer having shared the road of pain…?

Yes we continued to be intimate after dday. I do not think it hurt the healing I do think it helped keep us close through that horrible time.

Most people seem to not want to be touched by WS and I admit that when he does things to me that he did to her, I find myself having to work reallllllly hard to push that thought from my mind, trying to tell myself that whatever they did, it was never as intense and intimate as what we share, but it still bothers me. Am I nuts on that? Do you think about the OP and what you did with them? Wait, I don’t think I want that answer.

Is there a way to do things "differently" than what he did with OW?


I ♥ LostJim

Adopt a chihuahua in your area
http://adopt-a-chihuahua.adoptapet.com/


Posts: 5618 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: wishing I was on an ocean beach somewhere...
lostkale
♀ Member
Member # 25482
Default  Posted: 4:22 PM, September 21st (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Is there a way to do things "differently" than what he did with OW?

They only used one position for intercourse, but did many other things that I consider very intimate. Kissing, everything, think it up, yep, they did it, with me home asleep in the other room. Both straight faced in the morning, both professing their love for me.

Maybe we can at least avoid that one position for a while until I am comfortable, but I cant imagine forever since we do hope to work it out and IMO part of being married is having comfort in doing whatever. I just was raised very "proper" I guess you could say and many things took me years to feel comfortable with. I found all of it very, very intimate and private between us. After the "Final Dday" this past Saturday, I found myself laying in bed, being miserable. I decided to get up and go out with my BF to a show and clear my head a bit. Of course, it was all on my mind. Funny thing is, even with all the anger and pain I felt, when a guy there touched the small of my back when I asked where the restroom was, I felt incredibly uncomfortable. I cant imagine how he could do all these intimate things with her; and here I am, cant even have someone touch my back. I dont think I ever will be able to understand.

[This message edited by lostkale at 4:25 PM, September 21st (Monday)]


BW 31
WH 28 (Sorry Sack)
Married 8 years, together 13
D-Day - 8/30/09
Trickle truth....
Real D-Day (I think its all out now?) 9/19/09
MOW - "A dear friend" of mine...in my house...while I was sleeping...once in the same room
Kids - 2

Posts: 75 | Registered: Sep 2009
NeverWillAgain
♂ Member
Member # 25007
Default  Posted: 5:54 PM, September 21st (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi lostkale, I read your post and also your WH's and I responded to his.

My BW and I went through the very same thing as you. It is called "Hysterical Bonding" and it is in the healing library. We slept together the very first day - DDay. She hated me and loved me and wanted me all at the same time. It was strange and wonderful as well.

I can put your mind at ease. I didn't think of the OW at all during sex, and never have. Judging from your WH's post, I think he doesn't either. It is apparent he loves you very much and is remorseful for what he has done.

Did you and your BS continue being intimate after DDay? Did it hurt the healing path…or bring you even closer having shared the road of pain…?

The answer is Yes to being intimate and No it hurt the healing. She was cycling from anger/rage to euphoria for months. We fought horribly (I didn't "get it" and kept being defensive) and then we would make up. We would bond and be as one. It wasn't sex, it was real love. But, she felt she was competing with the OW, she also felt she was trying so hard to keep me. It was somewhat true.

But, it did give us moments where we could point to how good it was between us after the A. That gave us hope the next time we went down the tubes.

Positions, there is one position I did with the OW that she will never do again. She didn't like it that much anyway. I am more than willing to give that up. I enjoy being with her, not some stupid position. You need to feel comfortable as well. Don't worry about it, things will get better there too.

The biggest thing to work on is both the A and the M. Many forget to work on the M and never really heal. We read the 5 Languages of Love and it really helped. I found she needed me to open up (very difficult for me) and she found I needed physical touch. Hugs are better than compiments! We have worked to please each other and the M is so much stronger. So is our bond to each other and now we love to be with each other in and out of bed.

I hope this helps you. Just post up more questions if you have them.

NWA


Trust is something you take for granted until you lose it...

Posts: 491 | Registered: Jul 2009
lostkale
♀ Member
Member # 25482
Default  Posted: 6:59 PM, September 21st (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you SOOOO Much for your input, I will take as much as I can in this very confusing time. I have been so worried and confused through it all, I just couldnt figure anything out. Nothing at all made any sense anymore. Couldnt figure out what was real, what wasnt. Im just sick over it all.

blllaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh


BW 31
WH 28 (Sorry Sack)
Married 8 years, together 13
D-Day - 8/30/09
Trickle truth....
Real D-Day (I think its all out now?) 9/19/09
MOW - "A dear friend" of mine...in my house...while I was sleeping...once in the same room
Kids - 2

Posts: 75 | Registered: Sep 2009
NeverWillAgain
♂ Member
Member # 25007
Default  Posted: 7:24 PM, September 21st (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Well, one more thing. There is nothing wrong with you at all. The feelings you are having are quite normal. My W went through the very same thing. You will have moments when you feel like everything is right and then "Bam" everything is wrong. Don't put too much weight in them, look if he is helping you heal. That will determine the course. It took me many months to finally "get it." I am not proud of that either. But I can say that we are glad we kept at it. It really can be better than before. We fixed so many issues in our M (most of them were me, by the way). We are truly and rapidly moving toward being one. It is so awesome!

Good luck, but the signs are there that you can do the same. I think your WH knows what he did is wrong and wants to make amends. I think you both love each other deeply and that is the best thing to be working from.

I always liked the phrase from a Wynonna Judd song: "When you hit rock bottom, at least you have solid ground" So, if you find yourself there, remember it can only go up...


Trust is something you take for granted until you lose it...

Posts: 491 | Registered: Jul 2009
nothereorthere
♀ Member
Member # 20530
Default  Posted: 1:48 AM, September 22nd (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It has been 4 years out for us & before the affair we have always had a great sex life. After the affair, we again had a great sex life. Now, much of the time for the past year, I usually don't feel anything when we kiss or have sex. I just feel kinda numb. Not sure if I'm being cautious or what's going on. I'm wondering if any WS's have had their BS's feel the same way I do & if they would rather be told or not be told? I keep hoping this phase too passes, but I just don't know anymore. Feeling kind of hopeless here.

[This message edited by nothereorthere at 1:52 AM, September 22nd (Tuesday)]


Posts: 81 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: Ohio
roccodom
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Member # 19714
Default  Posted: 1:13 AM, September 23rd (Wednesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It's been about a year since the last dday. We have come a long way. MC, IC for both of us, the whole nine yards.

I see a significant difference in my FWH.

REcently, OW went on a fishing expedition - called him at work (he immediatley told me and hung up on her) then she e-mailed him that night.(told me).

But here's the thing that is bothering me. It's like he has rewritten his affair now. He speaks of her being a manipulator and how he thinks she may be a grifter looking to get money out of these WH (she apparently has a "hit list" of married men she goes after). I asked him if she asked him for money - "no - not directly". Then he says - he thinks she does this then threatens to tell the wife. I asked if she did this to him - he said no.

Look - I think he has taken responsibility for his actions - but he has a difficult time speaking with me about it (MC has helped - he can talk in there better). But why do I feel like he shirking his responsibilty by making her the bad guy - maybe not the best way to put it, but something freaks me out about it.

I do think she is a master manipulator - but what about him. I found out and was in False R for 5 months (when I found out the A has only been going on for 3months). He keeps saying that she would pull him back in with her theatrics and threats of suicide and drug use (yeh - nice). But don't you have to wanna be pulled back in. And don't you wanna be contacted if you don't tell your spouse she's contacting.

He said he thought he could make things okay with her while maintaining us (and admits that it was flawed thinking now)

What seems wrong to me or do I just not understand???


BS - me (45) WS - him (45)
married 16 yrs (DS 11yrs, DD 9yrs)
#1 PA - DDay 12/97
#2 PA DDay 5/08
#3 PA DDay 2/12
Trying R
Buddhism teaches that a craving for things outside ourselves causes an unhappy and pointless search for security.


Posts: 789 | Registered: May 2008 | From: MO
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 7:30 AM, September 23rd (Wednesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

chasingpavements -

should I be worried that this is still a subject he prefers to avoid?

If he is doing work to figure out his own flaws and fix them, then I don't think you need to worry so much. If he is trying to escape his past, that's a different story.

I'm not a big fan of going back to "revisit the details" of my lunacy. It tends to focus my energy on all the stuff I used to beat myself up with. Remind me of thoughts of not being good enough, of not deserving anything worthwhile, of being a loser. All that negative energy continually pummels you inside, and the natural desire is to get away from that thought process as quickly as possible.

Leaving the details behind to focus on making the changes I needed to get myself back to the person I should have been has been important for my healing. But if I was just trying to run away from my actions to set them aside with no effort to fix things, that would have been cause for concern.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 7:58 AM, September 23rd (Wednesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

nothereorthere -

I'm wondering if any WS's have had their BS's feel the same way I do & if they would rather be told or not be told?

If my BW felt that way, she never shared it with me. Having said that, I think I would prefer to be told if that's how she felt.

Let's face it, when we're intimate with our spouse, we can sense when they are enjoying it and when they are not. So whether you say something or not, I'm willing to bet he knows you are not into it.

I think it would also be important though to share as much as you can sort out about why you feel the way you do. It's important to be able to say you feel numb, but it's not because he's unattractive or bad at "performing". It's because the actions he took have worn away at your ability to open up to him. And when someone can't feel comfortable with fully opening themselves up to turning over their heart to their spouse, they can't experience passion the same way either. This can change in improve with time, but in this moment it's something that prevents fully enjoying intimate moments.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 9:54 AM, September 23rd (Wednesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

roccodom -

What seems wrong to me or do I just not understand???

To understand this, you have to remember that for many of us we idealized our OP during our fog. We set aside any negative trait they may have had and focused only whatever positives we could find.

Upon emerging from the fog, the euphoria wears off and we see the OP for who they really are. Sometimes this is instant, sometimes it happens over time. I think your FWH's process is actually healthy and productive. He needs to work through bringing the OP down from the pedestal he placed her on.

For me it went in extremes. I went from xMOW could do no wrong, to xMOW was scum of the earth who was pure evil, to ultimately leveling out to say that her role was wrong but mine was as well.

Ultimately, the day I felt strong and healed was the day when xMOW was neither bad nor good, but she just was. But unless you allow yourself to go through the phase where you absorb all the bad in the OP, you can't get to the balance point of indifference.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
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