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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS"s III
EmptyCup
♀ Member
Member # 22909
Default  Posted: 9:37 AM, September 3rd (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

After your D-Day did you express the desire to remain in the M because you were scared or because you really wanted to--and after the hoopla died down and the BS emotions cooled off did you in the ensuing months begin to feel "hey this isn't going to work no matter what because it is too painful to get to the root of the issue" so I'll just check out emotionally and hope that my BS gets fed up and ends it.

Even though xOM and I thought we loved each other, being together was never an option. I would never have left my family for such an unknown (and part of me always knew the A was mostly fantasy). Right after d-day, I knew logically that H and I had a chance, even as I felt nothing emotionally. I knew keeping my family together was my best shot for happiness, so I decided to work on it, but I had the thought in the back of my mind that if things didn't work out, I'd divorce rather than have another A or stay together in an unhappy marriage. I spent a lot of that early time trying to figure out how to love my H again and this site was invaluable getting me through it.

We've been making steady progress since very early on, so I never felt like things weren't working. We got to the root of our marital issues immediately and I worked on my own issues at a slower pace. Again, SI was invaluable there.


FWW, reconciled with my best friend <3

Nothing much but love to give you, even less have I to hide - Tim O'Brien


Posts: 1140 | Registered: Feb 2009
beach
♀ Member
Member # 7533
Default  Posted: 9:38 AM, September 3rd (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

quirkina,

After your D-Day did you express the desire to remain in the M because you were scared or because you really wanted to-- and after the hoopla died down and the BS emotions cooled off did you in the ensuing months begin to feel "hey this isn't going to work no matter what because it is too painful to get to the root of the issue" so I'll just check out emotionally and hope that my BS gets fed up and ends it


Last sentense sounds like WS is a passive and conflict avoider.

We are 3 years out. In my situation (even though it was open to H), as soon as H realized that my feeling was strongly attached to xOM, H wanted me to end it and then he said he was willing to D. I then chose for R, because xOM was not someone I want for full time and that our history together and the kids. Of course, I was afraid of being alone. At the beginning of R, my love for H was like motherly love, but I changed my mindset to "if we are staying in M, I want to enjoy being together", so I did modified fake it till you make it approach. One step at a time.

Simplyfied and decluttered our house.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.
Stopped watching reality shows, or fictional TV programs to get rid of junky mind.

We both worked on improving to become a better person to be with.


We are 150% reconciled.


If you don't find peace with yourself, you cannot find anywhere else.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.

Posts: 8680 | Registered: Jul 2005 | From: midwest
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 9:52 AM, September 3rd (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Razor -

If you could go back in time and choose to NOT have the A and loose everything you gained from it in personal growth and a better M. Would you choose NOT to have the A?

I'll answer your question, but I have to preface the answer. I've never been a big fan of hypothetical questions that are dependent upon certain conditions. Truth is there's no way for me to know where our M would have gone without the A.

With that said, I would forgo the lessons learned and not have the A. Yes, what I have learned is important and would have needed to happen at some point. But the price paid was far too great.

Here's the interesting thing though. It's not just about sparing the BS the pain they went through. It's also about losing full integrity for life. For every day I have left on this Earth, I have to live it knowing I can never say I lived a life of total integrity and honor. I sacrificed that through short sighted thoughts, and would gladly go back and restore mu integrity if I could.

Herein lies the gap in your question though. If we went back in time to that point and did not carry what we have learned, we likely would have made the same mistakes. Remember, the A wasn't about the M or even concerns about the BS. It was about a flaw or weakness within the WS. That flaw would still exist, so the potential to fall into an A would happen again.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 9:57 AM, September 3rd (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

futureseemsbleak -

Should I start dating now? I think I'm ready!!!

It's your call, but in your place I wouldn't. Looking at what I've learned, I would be unwilling to date until a D was final. There are too many opportunities for dynamics to change. Sometimes the weight of a D filing can snap a WS out of their fog and let them see the consequences of their actions. Sometimes it doesn't happen until they stand in a court room and face what they've done.

Bottom line is I sacrificed my integrity for life. Dating while still legally married, no matter how bad the M may be, makes the same sacrifice in my mind. Just look at the landscape littered with WS's claiming how bad their M was and using that as justification to be with someone other than their spouse. Their thinking may be flawed, but it's not that far from removed from "we're not S or D but we live as roommates anyway. So why not just get together with someone else anyway?".


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 10:06 AM, September 3rd (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

quirkina -

After your D-Day did you express the desire to remain in the M because you were scared or because you really wanted to--and after the hoopla died down and the BS emotions cooled off did you in the ensuing months begin to feel "hey this isn't going to work no matter what because it is too painful to get to the root of the issue" so I'll just check out emotionally and hope that my BS gets fed up and ends it.

I think it depends on which part of the choice we're focused on. In my active mind, fear of loss (family, stability, comfort) was certainly a factor. I have no doubt it was an influence in my actions at the time.

But remember that in light of D-Day, a WS is still deep in fog. So the active mind is clouded. In my case, there was an inner compass. One that kept pointing to staying and making the effort for R as the right path. Looking back now a couple of years later, I am seeing that inner compass for what it is. It is the deep seated love I have for my BW. A love that was so strong and so powerful that not even the delusion of an A could displace it within me.

There was never a time that I wanted to check out to deliberately force my BW to ask for a D. There were certainly low points where I wondered if I could ever recover from the damage I had done. But the desire to stay true to my inner compass always held more power than the painful thoughts that would surface surrounding the consequences of my actions.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 10:29 AM, September 3rd (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Listening.

Thank you for you thoughtful answer.

I hesitated to post the Q for the same reasons you gave. The Q really was about the value the WS places on their own personal gains vs. the pain inflicted on they BS. I didnt know another way to post the Q other than using a hypothetical Q.

I have to admit the whole "idealizing the A" threads on both forums yesterday triggered me badly. Not anger just a deep depression. You see one of the worst things that came from my WW A was that I really do not value myself anymore. From that the Q rose. How do WS balance the gains they have made in they self and the M vs. the pain they caused.

Rambling. Sorry. Still depressed I guess. Again thank you and all WS that answered my Q for they honest and thoughtful answers.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3084 | Registered: Sep 2007
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 10:43 AM, September 3rd (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Razor -

How do WS balance the gains they have made in they self and the M vs. the pain they caused.

I think this question actually does a better job of getting to the heart of the matter for you.

The answer will depend on where in the healing journey a WS is. For a remorseful WS, early on seeing the pain caused can be destructive and even crippling. You see the pain, you know that you are the cause, and there's a lot of opportunity to doubt you can ever make amends for what has been done.

As R continues, the pain remains a motivator to improve yourself not only for your own sake, but for that of your BS whom you know deserves better than you have given.


Looking back now a couple of years out, my views have changed a bit again. I see the pain as something I caused but also something I can never undo. I have to choose each day not to let that pain hold me back from being present in the here and now, giving all I can for what my BW needs of me today. In learning to be more mature in my focus on our relationship, I have learned to be far more focused on giving to my BW and less focused on what I was taking from the relationship. That change in thinking changes how much space is given to thinking about the pain versus thinking about ways to make your BS happy again.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
EmptyCup
♀ Member
Member # 22909
Default  Posted: 10:48 AM, September 3rd (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The Q really was about the value the WS places on their own personal gains vs. the pain inflicted on they BS.

Not for me it wasn't

On one side is the pain inflicted by the affair. On the other side is:
- the benefit to H & me as individuals (individual growth)
- the incredible improvement in our marriage from pre-A
- our children now have a mother and a father (individually) they deserve
- our children now have their parents in the kind of relationship they deserve to have as a model for their own lives
- the whole family is closer and spending more time together and we're really enjoying each other!

If it was just my own personal gain I would have seen it as a very different question.


FWW, reconciled with my best friend <3

Nothing much but love to give you, even less have I to hide - Tim O'Brien


Posts: 1140 | Registered: Feb 2009
tryin2smile
♀ Member
Member # 25131
Default  Posted: 12:35 PM, September 3rd (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks again to everyone here, to all the BS's for their thought-provoking questions and to all the WS's for their introspective and honest answers.

So this may be a dificult question. I was wondering if all of the WS's had a moment where you had to make that decision to either stay in reality and R or to immerse themselves in the A and its fantasy.
I ask this because I believe my husband chose the latter. I knew he was struggling and going through tremendous stress at work. He said he was really sad, didn't know why but then he thought it was this or that...He also said some weird things at the time - they were almost coded and I misintrepeted them when placed in the context of his other statements. I think he was trying to confess his A, but in a very ambiguous way and that he was really struggling with his actions. Now, I'm kicking myself because it's all clear as day now... Well anyway, he's since turned into a unremorseful MEAN SOB. Won't admit the A despite HUGE tell-tale signs, and full of anger toward me.
So I guess my questions are -
1. did you decide to avoid the fulll out fantasy or did D-day just happen first?
2. Have you ever heard of an unremorseful WS wake from the fog soon enough that R possible?
thank you

[This message edited by tryin2smile at 12:49 PM, September 3rd (Thursday)]


“The soul would have no rainbow had the eyes no tears.”-John Vance Cheney

"The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph." -Thomas Paine


Posts: 189 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: East Coast
NeverWillAgain
♂ Member
Member # 25007
Default  Posted: 12:52 PM, September 3rd (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

1. did you decide to avoid the fulll out fantasy or did D-day just happen first?

1. The way my A broke was very messy. I was actually forcing the confrontation by my behavior. I was MAD at my BW the entire week before I told her "I'm moving out, I met another woman." I also told her this because she had always said that infidelity was a deal breaker. I knew she meant it and I was too arrogant to beg for a chance. So, I took control and told her.

2. Have you ever heard of an unremorseful WS wake from the fog soon enough that R possible?

2. Absolutely. My BW called me to reconcile, 5 hrs after I moved to the OW's place. She wanted to know why I was mad at her. After all, I had the A. I was pretty nasty and said "you are just calling to badger me." But, then she asked me to talk and I immediately said "yes". I would probably have not asked her for the same. I was always the one who had to straighten out our disagreements by starting the talk. This time, I wasn't going to.

Why was I mad? Well, it was all HER fault. Yes, I was that much in a fog or stupid. It took me almost 3 weeks after being home to finally see that it wasn't her fault at all. I didn't see the OW as less than perfect for 2 months and another month or so to see her as manipulative. The fog can last quite a while.

I would ask you if you were the dominate personality in your relationship. If so, your WS may just be afraid to talk to you, and ask for forgiveness. I am sure he is blaming you for making him do this in the first place. It's wrong, but it's what I did.


Trust is something you take for granted until you lose it...

Posts: 491 | Registered: Jul 2009
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 12:57 PM, September 3rd (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

tryin2smile -

1. did you decide to avoid the full out fantasy or did D-day just happen first?

In my case, D-Day was the wake up call that prevented the fantasy from getting even worse (meaning PA, leaving the family, losing my job, etc.). I was forced to face reality based on my BW being a very clear and very honest mirror of where I had allowed my life to go.

2. Have you ever heard of an unremorseful WS wake from the fog soon enough that R possible?

While it wasn't my own experience - remorse hit me pretty quickly - I have seen situations here where the light went on after a period of time and the WS found remorse. Unfortunately, there are equal numbers where the opposite is true. It's really an individual thing.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
tryin2smile
♀ Member
Member # 25131
Default  Posted: 1:07 PM, September 3rd (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you for the great responses!

We talked for a few weeks after he left. We talked and most of what he said was about how angry he was at me and all the things that were just terrible in our marriage. I believed everything he said, even believed that his crush on his coworker was only that - well I was denying the signs big time. That all happened 3 months ago and he's progressively gotten more angry and has rewritten history BIG-TIME... Blaming me for the most irrational and unreasonable things. I really feel that it's all hopeless now, but I have the tiniest glimmer of hope when I think about how good we used to be.

And BTW, the OW was having sooo many personal problems when it all went down. One of her "crises" was how her married really good friend expressed feelings for her and so she was so devastated. So devastated she needed to cry on my H's shoulder!

[This message edited by tryin2smile at 1:09 PM, September 3rd (Thursday)]


“The soul would have no rainbow had the eyes no tears.”-John Vance Cheney

"The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph." -Thomas Paine


Posts: 189 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: East Coast
altered
♀ Member
Member # 25116
Default  Posted: 5:26 PM, September 3rd (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am a BS and have a question for WS where there is an OC. I have been posting and reading OC forum, but there is no information from the side of the WS about how they cope with OC and C vs NC. If you have a story please let me know. Thank you. I hope that R goes well for all.


Married since 5/99
BS-36
WH-39
1 COM
D-Day 6/27/09
In R OC born 12/15
D-Day #2 8/19/13

I want to be the kind of woman I want my daughter to be-Jewel

Posts: 205 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: Heartland
NeverWillAgain
♂ Member
Member # 25007
Default  Posted: 5:49 PM, September 3rd (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

That all happened 3 months ago and he's progressively gotten more angry and has rewritten history BIG-TIME... Blaming me for the most irrational and unreasonable things. I really feel that it's all hopeless now

T2S, hang in there, but protect yourself. I keep wondering if he is getting increasingly angry because he is starting the reality of his situation. I know that if I had continued down the path of the OW instead of R, I would probably be pretty bitter now myself. And since I felt it was all my W's fault, I would have directed that anger straight at her. Otherwise, why wouldn't he just be distant and cold. If he truly didn't feel anything for you, he wouldn't care.

He may hit bottom once he sees the real situation he is in. Stats say over 75% of these types of relationships end in divorce, so the odds aren't good for him.

I hope that whatever way it works out, you are ok. Nobody deserves this, nobody.


Trust is something you take for granted until you lose it...

Posts: 491 | Registered: Jul 2009
tryin2smile
♀ Member
Member # 25131
Default  Posted: 8:23 PM, September 3rd (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you NeverWillAgain.

I really appreciate your response and words of encouragement. I will hang in there and protect myself. I do believe that rockbottom may arrive sooner rather than later; he's put himself in a financial mess. There's such a big part of me that wants to shake him and make him see how he's destroying himself. But I know that he'll only get more angry with me and that will only cause me more anguish. NC (for me) has been a godsend.

I'm so glad that you and your wife chose to R. You've both posted such insiteful comments.

[This message edited by tryin2smile at 11:25 AM, September 4th (Friday)]


“The soul would have no rainbow had the eyes no tears.”-John Vance Cheney

"The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph." -Thomas Paine


Posts: 189 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: East Coast
feelingstupid09
♀ Member
Member # 22946
Default  Posted: 4:04 PM, September 5th (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I need to ask the WSs out there if what my husband says is really possible: he loves me more than ever and has always loved me. Always meaning even though he had intercourse with four women (one less than a year after our second child was born) and who knows how many happy ending massages and make out sessions over 17 years of our 19 year marriage. He says there were all one night stands, except one. A former teammate that he ran into in a bar.
He tells me it was never about me, yes we had our difficult times and maybe that frustration and anger were there, but bottom line, he did what he did. He makes no excuses except that it was his own selfishness and self-centeredness.

We are approaching 7 months and I got most of the truth when he told me about his infidelities over the years. He trickled a bit and then I think a couple of days ago I finally got all the truth. He really has been transparent, apologetic, remorseful; in fact, he feels as though an enormous weight has been lifted since telling me.

He promises he will never do it again, and I am working toward believing him. I love him more than anything and always have.

But I struggle with believing that he has ever really loved me. How can he have loved me and did what he did? Do the WS out agree? Can you with all honesty say you loved your wives even though your behavior indicates otherwise?

What do you think?


BS: me 52 (not feeling stupid now)
WS: him 50
DDay 2/7/09 gave me most of it, but full
disclosure came 8/30/09 about 15+ years of hookers/strippers/other women.
We are reconciling; we will make it.
Married for 23 years with 2 beautiful children:

Posts: 170 | Registered: Feb 2009
NeverWillAgain
♂ Member
Member # 25007
Default  Posted: 5:30 PM, September 5th (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But I struggle with believing that he has ever really loved me. How can he have loved me and did what he did? Do the WS out agree? Can you with all honesty say you loved your wives even though your behavior indicates otherwise?

What do you think?

This is probably the most common question I see on this board. And, it was one my BW had so much trouble with.

The answer for me was yes, I love my wife very much and always have.

The A wasn't about not loving her, it was about not loving myself. I was looking for external validation as I didn't feel that she appreciated me or sometimes even loved me. I was very selfish and decided to make myself "feel better."

The low self esteem issues and insecurity issues I have had all my life I have covered up so well. My W had no idea just how insecure I really was. I am in IC to get to the complete bottom of mine. I know many of the reasons, but I want them all. I never want to find myself back here again.

Your WH is probably dealing with some of the same issues. He probably does love you deeply, but his act was about him allowing himself to be so selfish. This in turn hurt you as deeply as anyone could.

My W had been raped a long time ago, before she met me. I was always careful with her on those subjects, movies that involved that, traveling (that's when it happened), etc. However, she told me that I hurt her worse than the rapist. I understand that now, but I didn't at first.

I am now very committed to my M and my BS. I am grateful for her love and commitment to me through all of this.

I suspect your WH will be the same if you can find a way to R successfully.

I wish you luck...

Edited for typo

[This message edited by NeverWillAgain at 5:34 PM, September 5th (Saturday)]


Trust is something you take for granted until you lose it...

Posts: 491 | Registered: Jul 2009
MissesJai
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Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 5:42 PM, September 5th (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How can he have loved me and did what he did? Do the WS out agree? Can you with all honesty say you loved your wives even though your behavior indicates otherwise?

What do you think?

it's understandable to question this. but, as a FWW, i can tell you that what i did had nothing to do with the love i have for my H. i have loved him for the past 10 years and love him now more than ever. why? because he found it in his heart, spirit, and soul to forgive me and to give me and our M another chance...

my actions were about me and my lack of self love and self respect. you may hear or read about WS's compartmentalizing, and well, i did some of that too...all in all, i never, ever, ever stopped loving my H....


FWW - 40
Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent...

Posts: 5525 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
UnexpectedSong
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Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 9:47 PM, September 5th (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

feelingstupid09 -

How can he have loved me and did what he did? Do the WS out agree? Can you with all honesty say you loved your wives even though your behavior indicates otherwise?

I never stopped loving my husband. I never wanted to leave him, I never wanted out of my marriage.

I wasn't feeling good and I wanted an escape. That's what it was. It was selfish, it was stupid, and I knew it. It had nothing to do with love. I just never learned how to deal with what I was going through.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
feelingstupid09
♀ Member
Member # 22946
Default  Posted: 10:11 PM, September 5th (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow, you guys thank you. It helps to know that this isn't his finding the right things to say. You have all said what he has told me over and over again almost verbatim. It helps. Gosh I am so glad I found this site.


BS: me 52 (not feeling stupid now)
WS: him 50
DDay 2/7/09 gave me most of it, but full
disclosure came 8/30/09 about 15+ years of hookers/strippers/other women.
We are reconciling; we will make it.
Married for 23 years with 2 beautiful children:

Posts: 170 | Registered: Feb 2009
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