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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS"s III
beach
♀ Member
Member # 7533
Default  Posted: 10:11 PM, August 28th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

amott,

There are two things that happened in the ten years I have been married that I often question my husband about.
First, when he finished basic training in the army, he brought a bag home that had a pair of women's underwear in it...he assured me he had no idea how they got there, thought that maybe it was some other guy playing a prank.

Second, on my twenty first birthday he lost his wedding ring. He found it a couple of years later...in our BED!!!. He had lost it on a day that I had been out looking for a job. He claims that he took it off at work the night before to wash his hands and stuck it in his pocket. I asked him if he took his ring off very often and he says never, he doesn't know why he did then. So, my question is...

Why would he take the ring off this time?

And could he be telling the truth?

I mean, he was caught sleeping with my best friend, why would'nt he fess up about these things if there was more? If there was any time to confess, wouldn't this be it? He still maintains innocence in those circumstances.

If the event occured so long ago, it may not be accurate, or making up, or may have forgotten about it.

Now keep watching his action / behavior and not his words. And make sure he is consistant and being transparent and open book with you.

[This message edited by beach at 10:17 PM, August 28th (Friday)]


If you don't find peace with yourself, you cannot find anywhere else.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.

Posts: 8680 | Registered: Jul 2005 | From: midwest
beach
♀ Member
Member # 7533
Default  Posted: 10:16 PM, August 28th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

kitcasey,

I have a question about questions for you all. My WH and I have arranged a meeting tomorrow wherein I will ask him questions that I have had about the A, and he will give me straight answers. We talked through some ground rules in MC, including:
-A time limit of one hour, so this doesn't devolve into a painful argument
-Just the facts -- he will answer my questions without trying to explain "why" this happened. -- this was my request, as I feel that this will get the conversation off track.
-He will tell me the truth (Of course I don't have a polygraph or anything -- I'm just trusting him to do this)
-No cell phones, blackberry, or laptop nearby to cause interruption.
-We do not have set plans for tomorrow evening so that either us is free to spend some time alone or with friends if we feel the need to do this.

I think we're both feeling nervous -- actually WH said he is "scared." Does anyone have any advice for me from a WS perspective? How can I make this work for both of us? Did you have a similar conversation with your BS?

Thanks in advance for any advice you might be willing to share.

I think it sounds like a reasonable and manageable plan to me. It is kind of like undevided quality time for you to talk. If he is a conflict avoider, you can also ask him to write down the timeline, too. Or if writing is easier for him to express. Good luck.


If you don't find peace with yourself, you cannot find anywhere else.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.

Posts: 8680 | Registered: Jul 2005 | From: midwest
beach
♀ Member
Member # 7533
Default  Posted: 10:25 PM, August 28th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TO
Why doesn't a WS just leave the marriage when they make the decision to cheat? They obviously have little respect for the BS and the marriage so why not just leave in the first place?
Song wrote - For the same reason you don't immediately file for divorce when you find out... Despite everything (being broken, messed up, stupid), there is still love there and something inside is crying out for help.

I agree with Song. In addition, many WS wants xOP for only ego stroking (or for me, I only wanted xOM part time and not full time) and not necessary to replace BS, was not looking for a next H.

Maybe Lust (toxic love - xOM) vs motherly love (healthy love - H). During A, foggy WS (as myself) didn't even see that having OP was abnormal.


Oh by the way, back to original question, you said, if WS was unhappy with BS, why not leave M first..?? Many WSs are afraid of being alone, or codependent and don't have courage, or not financially independent.... and then once opportunity arise, it starts slipperly slope and then start the cycle.

[This message edited by beach at 11:25 PM, August 28th (Friday)]


If you don't find peace with yourself, you cannot find anywhere else.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.

Posts: 8680 | Registered: Jul 2005 | From: midwest
QUEENOFDENIAL
♀ Member
Member # 23448
Sad  Posted: 9:52 AM, August 29th (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Still learning my way around the site and posted in the wrong place again... so here goes,

We are 5 months post D day and recently attempted R. We were separated before and since R attempt. I felt FWS's efforts were not 100% and so I didn't give that either. I realize that I am in danger of not seeing all the effort.

I feel it was too soon for both of us but I do love my FWS. I am starting IC this week to work on my issues with the A. My FWS's refuses to go now that we are separated again. She initially agreed after much talk but never made the appointment. I think this is the only thing that will give me peace of mind that the monster that hurt me is gone. I need her to do this. Can anyone tell me why they won't go.

[This message edited by QUEENOFDENIAL at 3:12 PM, August 29th (Saturday)]


BS 42(me)
FWS 40
Together 18years, 6m EA into 18m PA
D Day 03/20/09 Trust died and so did a part of me.
NC 10/08/09
R 10/09/09
We promise according to our hopes, and perform according to our fears.

Posts: 110 | Registered: Mar 2009
beach
♀ Member
Member # 7533
Default  Posted: 9:33 AM, August 31st (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Queenof,

I am starting IC this week to work on my issues with the A. My FWS's refuses to go now that we are separated again. She initially agreed after much talk but never made the appointment. I think this is the only thing that will give me peace of mind that the monster that hurt me is gone. I need her to do this. Can anyone tell me why they won't go.

Hi. I am over almost 3 years. I only went to IC through EAP (employee assistant program) once (when I ended), but I was very hesitant to talk about my A in details thinking I would be judged by IC. Even though he was very understandable and not judgemental, but still didn't want to talk about 'it' and discuss deeper rooted issues. So SI has been like my group therapy and it was easier to talk about my issue with people who has been in my shoes and nice to feel being belonged and being connected, especially during A I felt like I was alone in dealing things, but it was nice to feel that I was not alone in this. I also had a social anxiety, so it was hard to talk in person. The setting of SI is annonymous, and it helped overcoming the fear of talking to strangers. Posting here was also theraputic, too.

After I got better talking about my sitch here and then finally, I decided to go to IC to talk about and work on the core issues. Talking at SI was like a practice of talking to strangers gave me a courage to go to SI in person. Hope this helps.

Do you think your WS would join here? Good luck.

[This message edited by beach at 10:03 AM, August 31st (Monday)]


If you don't find peace with yourself, you cannot find anywhere else.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.

Posts: 8680 | Registered: Jul 2005 | From: midwest
tryin2smile
♀ Member
Member # 25131
Default  Posted: 8:53 AM, September 1st (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Given another few months, my A would very likely have ended my M, my relationship with my kids and my career.

My WH has already gone there: walked out, accumulated huge credit card debt, career down tubes. I've recently gone NC to protect myself from all of the anger and venom thrown my way. I think I already know the answer to this, but is there anything I can do to help stop his spiral downwards?He is just so incredibly different than the man I remember and he's gotten progressively more hostile toward me since leaving (more entrenched in the fog?)...

[This message edited by tryin2smile at 12:46 PM, September 1st (Tuesday)]


“The soul would have no rainbow had the eyes no tears.”-John Vance Cheney

"The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph." -Thomas Paine


Posts: 189 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: East Coast
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 10:43 AM, September 1st (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

lovedance -

Catching up on a few items here, so sorry this isn't a quick reply.

I'm am sorry for the pain you are enduring. The most important thing to remember is that your WH's A has nothing to do with you. Yes, I said nothing. He may have been unhappy in your M, and there may have been issues. But he had options. He could have asked for MC. He could have asked for S or D. Instead, his own flaws led him to close the window on you and open one with OW.

The feelings of the M being awful are part of the rewriting of history that a WS uses to justify their A. It's a protection mechanism to prevent facing the "wrongness" of their own actions.

Why not share the feelings that the feelings were breaking down? In my case, I was a conflict avoider. I was actually scared to confront my BW with the things that bothered me.

Why would he be so willing to give up his family? Because he is still addicted to OW, and in order to keep getting his fix he needs to rid himself of any obligation that will tear apart his fantasy. In that phase, kids are seen as a burden, not a blessing.

Will he emerge from his fog? The only way it happens is quitting cold turkey. Full on NC with OP and facing serious consequences if the WS does not take care of the basics (full transparency, IC and MC). Shy of that, he's likely to stay in the fog and continue to act irrationally.

Was his A because he felt you no longer needed him? I don't think so. My bet is he thinks very little of himself and needs others to define him as a terrific person. When the day to day realities of your M no longer allowed that, he looked to someone else to feed his ego. The fix for this is finding your own self worth. That can only happen with a good deal of IC to tear down the feelings of inferiority.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
QUEENOFDENIAL
♀ Member
Member # 23448
Default  Posted: 10:45 AM, September 1st (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Beach,

Thank you for your insight. I know she did some reading here when I asked but I don't know if she joined or visited the WS forum. I do know her well and IC would be very difficult for her.

I need to know she is working on repairing what is damaged inside her before I can open my heart to her again. That is my line in the sand and I will not compromise myself by taking less than a 100% effort on her part. R attempt failed miserably, partially my fault but the bottom line is she still wants to blame me and won't look at herself. She also still has feelings for the OP. She sent me a NC text(you can not believe how that hurt) at the AP's behest a couple of months ago but wouldn't write or send the letter I asked for during R attempt. Just one more pain to add to the pile.

I'm not sure she loved me at all anymore and the OP may meet her needs just fine. If I don't mean enough to her for her to do this, then it is time for me to give up and just accept that her feelings weren't real all those years, I was just meeting her needs. The person I thought she was and the person she is are very different and I am having trouble reconciling this in my mind(something to work on in IC). She may have loved me the only way she knew how but the minute I failed to meet those needs she turned to someone else and I can not live my life looking over my shoulder.

Most importantly, I want to be loved for me not what I provide. I deserve that and to have her whole heart.


BS 42(me)
FWS 40
Together 18years, 6m EA into 18m PA
D Day 03/20/09 Trust died and so did a part of me.
NC 10/08/09
R 10/09/09
We promise according to our hopes, and perform according to our fears.

Posts: 110 | Registered: Mar 2009
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 11:06 AM, September 1st (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

amott -

Your gut is telling you that you are not getting the truth, right. My read is your gut is right. To paraphrase Judge Judy, "when something doesn't make sense then it isn't true".

Why not fess up? Because until confronted with either full evidence or full consequences, there is still a part inside the WS that is trying to protect themselves. Still trying to minimize the damage from their actions by not revealing too much.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 11:46 AM, September 1st (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

kitcasey -

I hope your conversation went well. Assuming it's an ongoing dialogue, I thought I would still reply for you.

The biggest thing my BW did for me when asking me questions was her acceptance of my answers. Not that she liked what I had to say. But she worked hard to make sure she wasn't dismissing my answers. Let's face it, anything a WS tells you post D-Day is going to sound irrational and illogical. If the response is either to tell the WS how stupid they are or how wrong they are, what incentive is there to continue providing honest answers?

This is especially true when discussing feelings. Feelings exist - whether you think they should or not. To dismiss them is to dismiss the other person entirely, which is not healthy in trying to get to the core of the matter.

I see the ground rules for him, but did you have any ground rules for yourself? If I were to ask for some, they would include:

-No interruptions. If you ask a question, let me answer it fully and possibly even give it a minute to soak in before replying.

-No dismissal of my answers. My answers are what they are. If you argue them, then I will likely no longer feel comfortable giving you the whole story.

-No rebuttals. If I am no allowed to give the reasons "why" something happened, it's not fair for you to have the ability to give the reasons it should not have happened. That's a set up for a one sided attack conversation.

-I don't know is not an acceptable answer, but I don't know yet is. It's ok for me to table a response if in fact I really do need to think about it to make sure I get it right. I would need to agree to a time frame so it didn't go on forever unanswered, but breathing room would be allowed.

I hope you both are finding a way to communicate effectively. In our case, we used the chapters of "After the Affair" and the Emotional Needs Questionnaire from marriagebuilders.com as springboards for topics of conversation. This worked really well for us, keeping us on topic and allowing for some really deep thought processes to take place.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 11:52 AM, September 1st (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TO -

Why doesn't a WS just leave the marriage when they make the decision to cheat? They obviously have little respect for the BS and the marriage so why not just leave in the first place?

This wasn't true for me. It wasn't about a lack of respect for my BW. It was about a lack of respect for myself - willing to reduce myself to a lower standard than I should have. Combine that with a fear of conflict and not wanting to get into a fight with my BW, and I simply did not share with her the things that bothered me.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
debbied
♀ Member
Member # 25354
Default  Posted: 12:39 PM, September 1st (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Why doesn't a WS just leave the marriage when they make the decision to cheat? They obviously have little respect for the BS and the marriage so why not just leave in the first place?

I agree with listeningclosely on this.Its not about lack of respect for bs its about lack of respect for oneself.Also add to that lack of self esteem.For me I didn't go out looking for an A but I would never say it just happened as thats a poor excuse and just damn lying.Any form of cheating is considered beforehand(in my books anyway whether sober or drunk).It doesn't mean its considered properly though and what damage that can be done is put to the back of your mind.Looking back I should have left my M along time ago but didn't have the guts to leave.A happen for so many reasons and each case is different.

Posts: 620 | Registered: Aug 2009
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 1:41 PM, September 1st (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

QUEENOFDENIAL -

Can anyone tell me why they won't go [to IC].

I did agree pretty early to counseling. MC first, then realized IC was going to be needed before MC could help. But that's not to say I wasn't scared going in.

Why be afraid? Because IC is a mirror into our soul. As a WS, I knew how low I had let myself sink. Going to IC meant I had to shine a bright light on that dark corner of myself, and that was very scary indeed.

Your feeling is right though. IC is the only way to determine what truly allowed the A to happen and what behaviors need to change to ensure it never happens again. You are right to insist that IC is a requirement for the R process. Without it, a WS will never get to the true reasons they made the choices they did.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 1:47 PM, September 1st (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

tryin2smile -

is there anything I can do to help stop his spiral downwards?

If you haven't already, ensure stern consequences for incorrect choices are in place. Make NC, IC and full transparency mandatory. Add reading key books if you think it will help. Probably the best one for him to read would be "Not Just Friends". If all of these have already been done and the spiral continues, a full on 180 can be tried, letting the WS experience what life is like with a full loss of their family.

If you have already gone that far, I don't see much else that can be done. Once experiencing hitting rock bottom, the WS has to make their own commitment to fixing themselves in order for it to work. It cannot be willed, wished or forced upon them.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
TICKED OFF
♀ Member
Member # 8291
Default  Posted: 8:42 PM, September 1st (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

"song"....I do think that I would have left the marriage (and I think other bs's would too) or at least separated if I had known the depth of the a at the time I found out. However, as it goes, most of us do not get the truth for quite sometime. I also think that we (the bs) are in so much pain and shock that we don't really know what to do at that time. With this being said, does the ws have the same feeling of shock when they become involved in the a?

Here is my problem with the respect issue.... I have had many opportunites to cheat but did not due to respect for myself, but ALSO out of respect for my marraige and my h. Because of this, it is hard for me to understand how my h (or any ws) had any respect for thier spouse when they chose to have an a. How is it possible that a ws can NOT have respect for the spouse knowing that what they are doing is so wrong? I am at conflict with this issue.

And "debbied" thank your for your honesty. I too don't believe that it just happens and like you said, that is just a poor excuse and a damn lie.

P.S. Thank you to all the ws who try to help us understand by answering our sometimes very difficult questions. I am very greatfull to all of you.


Posts: 2389 | Registered: Sep 2005
beach
♀ Member
Member # 7533
Default  Posted: 10:16 PM, September 1st (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TickedOff -
I also think that we (the bs) are in so much pain and shock that we don't really know what to do at that time. With this being said, does the ws have the same feeling of shock when they become involved in the a?
Here is my problem with the respect issue.... I have had many opportunites to cheat but did not due to respect for myself, but ALSO out of respect for my marraige and my h. Because of this, it is hard for me to understand how my h (or any ws) had any respect for thier spouse when they chose to have an a. How is it possible that a ws can NOT have respect for the spouse knowing that what they are doing is so wrong? I am at conflict with this issue.

I understand about the shock when you discovered WS's A. Now, from my experience as a FWS, once WS is in the slipperly slope sitch and the emotional boundary line became fuzzy, without realizing that the line was crossed. As the time goes by, all of sudden noticed that it became a part of daily life and thinking like have to have it mindset. Many FWS don't realize that if there was no physical involved, it is not guilty.....


I often wonder if my A was secretive and not open, what I would have done. I tried to think pre alternate life style days. I would not have cross the line physically though. Before I came to SI, I didn't know that EA was also cheating and guilty as charged.....

[This message edited by beach at 10:38 PM, September 1st (Tuesday)]


If you don't find peace with yourself, you cannot find anywhere else.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.

Posts: 8680 | Registered: Jul 2005 | From: midwest
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 10:21 PM, September 1st (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TO -

does the ws have the same feeling of shock when they become involved in the a?

In my case, no. But that's because the A happened gradually over time. Friendly banter for a while. Then some flirty comments. Then progressing to discussing fantasies. Then...you get the idea.

A BS is hit with the reality of an A full force like a sledgehammer on D-Day. But the WS went through a gradual build up. At first, small wrong decisions became bigger wrong decisions over time. So the reaction is very different on the WS end.

With that said, I felt the same amount of shock on D-Day itself. The slap in the face to wake up and understand what I had done was just as intense and just as frightening.

How is it possible that a ws can NOT have respect for the spouse knowing that what they are doing is so wrong?

Your premise assumes that one day we're walking along and behaving ourselves, and the next a switch is thrown and poof...we're in an A. That wasn't how mine happened at all. The gradual nature of establishing and building a relationship with xMOW made things far more subtle. I didn't realize early on how I was setting my BW aside.

By the time I realized how far things had gone, I felt trapped. Locked into a pattern that I couldn't escape.

I guess in a way you could say that I didn't respect my BW because of all the other factors that led to the build up of the A. I didn't talk to her and tell her I was unhappy for example. But my conflict avoidance fed that inability. None of it was a conscious choice to say "forget you, Wells. I'm gonna go get it on with someone else.".

Our MC made a statement early in our counseling that I had gotten in way over my head during the A. At the time I was very offended by that statement. But the reality is she was right. Things started innocently enough with some friendly banter, but it quickly got out of hand and I was definitely in over my head.

I suppose there are those who have an A to deliberately hurt their spouse (an RA would do that for example). But that wasn't how it happened in my case.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
beach
♀ Member
Member # 7533
Default  Posted: 10:44 PM, September 1st (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LC, articulated so well.


If you don't find peace with yourself, you cannot find anywhere else.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.

Posts: 8680 | Registered: Jul 2005 | From: midwest
TICKED OFF
♀ Member
Member # 8291
Default  Posted: 11:56 PM, September 1st (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks all of you for your insight........you guys are the best. It is just nice to get honest answers that help us make sense out of things that make no sense.

Posts: 2389 | Registered: Sep 2005
lovedance
♀ Member
Member # 25294
Default  Posted: 12:44 AM, September 2nd (Wednesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Listening - thank you so much for your reply. I am so greatful to gain persepctive from those who have survived this. I want my M to survive, WH does not. He has mentioned before that it's just too much now. I don't want to label anyone on this site, but that seems so cowardly and weak. I know it took me a few weeks to realize how I was "controlling" as he said and it was hard to see that flaw in me. I just always saw him as someone stronger than me and now I see the oposite. He too is a confilct avoider, saying his grandfather was te same way...keep it in until you blow. His mom keeps it in and - in her words - eventually it goes away. He had no male rolemodel to show him how to fight for a M. Thank you SI for helping me gt to a point where I am certain in the fault of the A being his (I lready claimed my 50% of the M breakdown.) He hasn't even claimed that much. He says "well maybe I should've blah blah blah, but I didn't." The end - no trying to change or fix himself. Thank you again to all that replied for sharing your insight and your story.


Me-29
WH-31
OW-21
D-day #1 3/2/09
Separated off and on until 12/31/09 when A ended, WH moved home and NC started
Trying to R...I can tell he is starting to "get it."
I left 2/10 and he filed for D 6/10. Only a few more days until it is

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