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User Topic: BS Questions for WS"s III
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 6:23 AM, August 14th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ky_197220 -

Obviously I can't read his mind. But his actions are practically screaming that he is trying to run away from his issues. That was destructive when his running away turned into an A. It's not going to be less destructive now.

Be reassuring but firm that he needs to confront this. Offer things that might soften the blow, like joining him for the start of the first IC session (or all of the first one, which would only be intake anyway) or reading books that examine self worth together. Consider having him join SI so those of us who have been down this path can offer guidance and support to him as he works through the pain.

Anything that gets him to address his challenges instead of trying to bolt away from them will start his progress toward recovery.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
beach
♀ Member
Member # 7533
Default  Posted: 10:03 AM, August 14th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ky_197220 -
Maybe the fact that I am able to forgive makes him feel even worse and less deserving?

Could be... There was an exellent post that darkbeast made regarding to forgiving self.

I forgave myself a few months ago. I didn't understand that concept and questioned Fallen about it repeatedly. But I heard a sermon from an old preacher and it all made since. Forgiving yourself is saying "It's over, I am going to change". Self hate is accepting to remain the same.
I am fueled by the burning desire to rescue BB from the disaster that I placed her in. I stewed in self hate for a LONG time and it got me nowhere.

I am going to share some inspirational articles with you. I hope this helps. and you can send it to your H as well. And I hope you tell your H about Wayward side of SI and he join here as well.

June 14, 2005
Forgiving Yourself
Releasing Guilt

We all know what it feels like to feel guilty about something and many of us struggle with feeling guilty all the time. Guilt makes us feel that we are somehow unforgivable. While this experience is common, it is detrimental to our overall wellbeing. Feeling guilty generally promotes a sense of powerlessness-an anguished agonizing over a past action that cannot be changed. The problem with this is that it doesn't inspire us to forgive ourselves, make amends for mistakes, and move forward free of emotional baggage.

Originally, guilt referred to the fine paid for proven wrongdoing. Once you made the payment, in time or money, for what you had done, you were free-free of the sentence and free of the guilt. The problem with guilt as it is often experienced now is that it becomes a permanent state of mind for some people. In this case, it is a neurotic preoccupation rather than a fair assessment of wrongdoing followed by a course of action that leads to reparation.

It is part of the human experience to make mistakes and hurt others. There is no way to avoid this entirely, and wallowing in guilt will not help you or anyone else. It will not prevent future suffering. Understanding this is the first step towards liberating yourself from guilt.

If you are hanging onto guilt about something, the first thing you need to do is practice compassion for yourself; you are human and you make mistakes. Compassion and self-forgiveness are much more effective than guilt in helping you determine a course of effective action. You may need to make an apology, or you may need to make some changes in yourself. Know that with each action you create healing for yourself and anyone you have hurt. Finally, learn from your mistakes, but never beat yourself up. Know that you are inherently good, love yourself, and always do your best. Then there will be no place for guilt in your life.


April 4, 2008
Permission To Forgive Ourselves

Releasing Guilt

Learning to accept the things that we perceive as wrong can be a difficult task for many of us. Often we have been brought up to accept that it is normal to feel guilty about our actions and that by doing so we will make everything seem alright within ourselves. Even though we might feel that we have a reason to make up for the choices we have made, it is much more important for us to learn how to deal with them in a healthy and positive way, such as through forgiveness and understanding.

When we can look back at our past and really assess what has happened, we begin to realize that there are many dimensions to our actions. While feeling guilty might assuage our feelings at first, it is really only a short-term solution. It is all too ironic that being hard on ourselves is the easy way out. If we truly are able to gaze upon our lives through the lens of compassion, however, we will be able to see that there is much more to what we do and have done than we realize. Perhaps we were simply trying to protect ourselves or others and did the best we could at the time, or maybe we thought we had no other recourse and chose a solution in the heat of the moment. Once we can understand that dwelling in our negative feelings will only make us feel worse, we will come to recognize that it is really only through forgiving ourselves that we can transform our feelings and truly heal any resentment we have about our past.

Giving ourselves permission to feel at peace with our past actions is one of the most positive steps we can take toward living a life free from regrets, disappointments, and guilt. The more we are able to remind ourselves that the true path to a peaceful mind and heart is through acceptance of every part of our lives and actions, the more harmony and inner joy we will experience in all aspects of our lives.


October 23, 2007
Empowered Forgiveness

Apologies

In life there will always be times when we are affected by the actions of another person. When this happens, we often receive an apology. More often than not we say, "It's alright?" or "It's okay" and by saying this we are allowing, accepting, and giving permission for the behavior to happen again. When we say Thank you, or accept your apology, we are forced to sit in our feelings rather than ignore them.

There are many of us who feel that it is easier to brush off how we really feel than to express our discomfort with something that has happened to us. While this may initially seem like the best thing to do, what it really does is put us into an unending pattern of behavior; since we are not honest with another person, we continue the cycle of letting them overstep our emotional limits time and time again. By doing this we place ourselves in the position of victim. We can put an end to this karmic chain by first acknowledging to the other person that we accept their request for forgiveness; often a simple Thank you is enough. To truly create a greater sense of harmony in our relationship, however, we need to gently, and with compassion, express our innermost concerns about what has transpired. By taking a deep breath and calling upon the deepest parts of our spirit, we can usually find the right words to say and verbalize them in a way that lets the other person recognize the consequences of what they have done.

If we can remember that our response to others is important, we can begin to realize that trust and forgiveness go hand in hand. And when we react in a way that engenders a greater amount of honesty and candor, we will establish a more positive and empowering way of being and interacting others.


September 18, 2007
The Weight Of The Past
Regret

Holding onto regret is like dragging the weight of the past with us everywhere we go. It drains our energy, leaving less available for life in the present because we are constantly feeding an old issue. This attachment can cause illness the same way watering a dead plant creates decay. We know that something new and beautiful can grow in its place if we only prepare the soil and plant the right seeds. We also know that we create our lives from our thoughts, so dwelling on the past may actually recreate a situation in our lives where we are forced to make the choice again and again. We can choose to move on right now by applying what we have learned to the present and perhaps even sharing with others, transforming the energy into something that is constructive and creative for ourselves and others.

Forgiveness is the soothing balm that can heal regret. In meditation, we can imagine discussing the issue with the self of our past and offering our forgiveness for the choice. In return, we can ask for our selves?forgiveness for keeping them locked in that space of judgment for so long. We may also want to ask forgiveness from anyone else who may have been affected and perhaps offer our forgiveness. By replaying the event in our minds, we can choose a new ending using all that we now know. Imagine that you have actually gone back into the past and made this change, and then say goodbye to it. Release your former self with a hug and bring the forgiveness and love back with you to the present. Since we are usually our harshest critics, it is amazing how powerfully healing it can be to offer ourselves love.

Keeping our minds and our energy fully in the present allows us to fuel our physical and emotional healing and well-being today. This action frees our energy to create the dreams we dream for the future. By taking responsibility and action in the present, we can release our hold on the past.

June 6, 2007
An Empowered Perspective
Importance Of Forgiveness

When someone has hurt us, consciously or unconsciously, one of the most difficult things we have to face in resolving the situation is the act of forgiveness. Sometimes it feels like it's easier not to forgive and that the answer is to simply cut the person in question out of our lives. In some cases, ending the relationship may be the right thing to do, but even in that case, we will only be free if we have truly forgiven. If we harbor bitterness in our hearts against anyone, we only hurt ourselves because we are the ones harboring the bitterness. Choosing to forgive is choosing to alleviate ourselves of that burden, choosing to be free of the past, and choosing not to perceive ourselves as victims.

One of the reasons that forgiveness can be so challenging is that we feel we are condoning the actions of the person who caused our suffering, but this is a misunderstanding of what is required. In order to forgive, we simply need to get to a place where we are ready to stop identifying ourselves with the suffering that was caused us. Forgiveness is something we do for ourselves, and our forgiveness of others is an extension of our readiness to let go of our own pain. Getting to this point begins with fully accepting what has happened. Through this acceptance, we allow ourselves to feel and process our emotions.

It can be helpful to articulate our feelings in writing over a period of days or even weeks. As we allow ourselves to say what we need to say and ask for what we need to heal, we will find that this changes each day. It may be confusing, but it is a sign of progress. At times we may feel as if we are slogging uphill through dense mud and thick trees, getting nowhere. If we keep going, however, we will reach a summit and see clearly that we are finally free of the past. From here, we recognize that suffering comes from suffering, and compassion for those who have hurt us naturally arises, enhancing our new perspective.


June 14, 2007
Demolishing Anger's Walls
Resentment

Anger, when channeled into the pursuit of change, can be a useful tool in our emotional palette. Anger is experienced by most people, some more than others. It is when anger has no outlet and morphs into resentment that it carries with it the potential to cause great turmoil. Allowing us to assign blame for the pain we are feeling, thereby easing it, resentment tends to smolder relentlessly just below the surface of our awareness, eroding our peace of mind. The target of our resentment grows ever more wicked in our minds and we rue the day we first encountered them. But resentment is merely another hue on the emotional palette and therefore within the realm of our conscious control. We can choose to let go of our resentment and to move on with our lives, no matter how painful the event that incited it.

Hanging onto resentment in our hearts does not serve us in any way. Successfully divesting ourselves of resentful feelings can be difficult, however, because doing so forces us to mentally and emotionally confront the original source of anger. When we cease assigning blame, we realize that our need to hold someone or something responsible for our feelings has harmed us. We thought we were coping with our hurt when in fact we were holding onto that hurt with a vice grip. To release resentment, we must shift our attention from those we resent back toward ourselves by thinking of our own needs. Performing a short ceremony can help you quell resentful feelings by giving tangible form to your emotions. You may want to write down your feelings and then burn the paper and close your ceremony by wishing them well. When you can find compassion in your heart, you know you are on your way to healing.

Free of resentment, we have much more energy and attention to devote to our personal development. We can fill the spaces it left behind with unconditional acceptance and joy. And, as a result of our subsequent freedom from resentment, blessings can once again enter our lives as the walls we built to contain our anger have been demolished.


March 3, 2005
Healing The Past
Fire Meditation

Each of us has unresolved issues revolving around our relationships that linger in our souls. People don't always say or do what's right and it can seem impossible to heal that breach, particularly when that person is unresponsive or has passed away. The following fire meditation is a way to release pain and to heal a past or present relationship, or to deal with unresolved interpersonal issues. Through this type of meditation, it becomes possible to seek out reconciliation and forgiveness, as well as to rid yourself of the spiritual baggage that can come when you harbor emotional pain.

During this meditation, it can be helpful to have a partner who reads the instructions to you in a soothing voice. Or, if you prefer to meditate alone, you may want to record yourself reading the instructions and play it back when you are ready to start. Begin by finding a quiet, relaxing space. In choosing, keep in mind that you will want to have your back be as straight as possible, either by laying down on a flat surface or sitting up straight in a chair. Breathe deeply and relax your body and mind.

When you have reached a state of deep relaxation, envision the place where you feel most safe. It needn't be a real location; it can be an isolated private island, a tropical beach, or a mountain sanctuary. It can even be your own bedroom. Take the time to really see and experience your safe place. Smell the air, listen for sounds, and feel the ground under you. When you are relaxed in your surroundings, envision a road. Look down it and watch for the arrival of the person or animal you wish to make peace with. Let them come at their own pace and, when they are in full view, ask if they are willing to heal with you. If their answer is yes, look at first at yourself. How old are you? What are you wearing? How old is your companion and what do they look like?

The next step is to envision a fire. It can be in any form you wish: a camp fire, a ceremonial fire, or a bonfire. As you begin to heal, throw your baggage into the fire and ask for forgiveness or the closure you are seeking. If you wish, you can step into the fire; it will not harm you. Release everything that you no longer desire for yourself or your companion into the fire. In doing so, you may feel your body temperature rise, or you may shake a little. This is normal. Take as much time as you need with your companion. When you are finished, release them, and they will turn and walk back the way they came. Stay in your safe place for as long as you desire. When you feel comfortable, open your eyes and note the great weight that has been lifted from you.

Source : Dailyom.com

[This message edited by beach at 10:06 AM, August 14th (Friday)]


If you don't find peace with yourself, you cannot find anywhere else.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.

Posts: 8680 | Registered: Jul 2005 | From: midwest
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 10:20 AM, August 14th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ky_197220 -

Maybe I'm just in denial but six weeks out I feel I am able to forgive him.

My husband said something very similar very soon, too. I kept wanting to run away and he said "I've forgiven you, why haven't you forgiven yourself" and he just really wanted me to move past it. And then later, issues came up, and he realized that it does take more time, even for him.

I'm not sure what you can do if you are living apart. My husband pushed for special date nights, trips away.. everything lovely, but not helpful for my frame of mind. I just wanted peace - I wanted emptiness for awhile. I guess that is very difficult for the BS to do and accept.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
MissesJai
♀ Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 10:35 AM, August 14th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How many of you were assured by your affair partners that they would back away and let go if you wanted to work on your relationship?

xOM and i knew full well that what we had was bound to end at some point.

How many of them did it and if they didn't how much harder did it make things for you and for your BS?

he did it..he let me go....but on the last d-day, after i called him and told him BH knows everything and he doesn't have to lie for me anymore, his first response was "what does this mean for us?" then he contacted me once at work a few weeks later, to which i shut him down, and that was it. i told BH, and he flipped out - it was awful. it was almost like we were back at d-day all over again. it made me wish i didn't say anything.

Maybe the fact that I am able to forgive makes him feel even worse and less deserving?

this was me....BH had forgiven me but i was refusing to forgive myself. i'm very hard on myself and have self-esteem issues, which alot of waywards deal with, so i have an uncanny ability to beat myself up better than anybody else ever could. so, BH forgiving me made me feel so much worse - because i didn't feel worthy of him or his forgiveness. how did i get past it? i went up to the bay area for 2 days - spent time with one of my best friends, went to the beach every day and i made a whole hearted attempt to leave as much of my guilt and shame on that beach each time i went. it worked. i still have my moments, but overall, i'm not overwhelmed with feelings of guilt and shame. what's done cannot be undone....


FWW - 40
Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent...

Posts: 5532 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
ky_197220
♀ Member
Member # 24728
Default  Posted: 12:49 PM, August 14th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks everyone for the advice.

Unexpected Song- I can underatand the peace part of it but that's really hard for me to be patient. I have two babies that are turning 1 in two weeks. I so wish we could be together as a family, but it won't happen. How long did you need the peace?


BS with beautiful b/g twins

Status - happily divorced.


Posts: 156 | Registered: Jul 2009
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 1:26 PM, August 14th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ky-

How long did you need the peace?

I am learning to think more of others, so I am trying to put aside my needs. (I am sure my husband does not think I'm doing it very well. I am still very selfish.) I look for my peace in the few minutes before I fall asleep.

Why is your husband away? I would think he'd want to be home for the babies!!!


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
BreathingAgain
♀ New Member
Member # 25031
Default  Posted: 1:28 PM, August 14th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have a question about "the fog". I would like to hear from WS's whose fog didn't lift until months into R.

When we were first in R my H's answer to many of my questions was "It's never going to make sense to you, I was in a fog at the time."

Then he sent her a letter about three months into R, but I didn't find out about it until about 6 months in. Again his response was, "I was still in the fog back then".

He wrote his NC letter to MOW and an apology letter to her husband. He sent both letters to each of them so there would be no secrets.

He later admitted that there had been "a few phone calls"
in the time between him sending the letter and me finding out about it.

Then recently in MC I asked him when the fog had lifted. He gave a timeframe that was 6 months after I found out about the broken NC (a year into R).

I was shocked. I looked at the MC for confirmation and he said "that timeframe seemed about right to him".

I should have kept my cool and explored it further at that time, but instead I reacted with anger and H shut down.

That was right before I found this website. Before I learned so much from the people here and their experiences.

I was so hurt that I had lived a year with him while he was still in the fog (while all the time telling me that the fog was a thing of the past). Now I understand that the fog, for some, doesn't begin to lift until NC starts and is maintained. I also learned from you here that 5 to 6 months (from NC to being out of the fog) is not outside the norm. That made me feel so much better. I thank all you WS's for sharing on this website.

So now the issue at hand...

Both he and the MC seemed so sure of the timeline that it seemed to me to have been driven by a specific event or breakthrough in IC.

My understanding of "the fog" is that some WS's break out of it immediately at DDday and for some it fades away slowly with time, IC, MC, etc.

Neither of these seem to fit our circumstance. His quick and "date certain" response, backed up by the MC leads me to believe that this was not simply the end of "fading away" process.

So I asked him what had happened? Why were they both so certain of the timeframe? Did something happen in IC? What was it like for him to come out of the fog?

His only answer to me is that he "made a decision to live with integrity".

Of course I thought he made that decision when R started, and again when NC was firmly in place.

And from reading here and reading many books, I don't believe that you can simply decide to come out of the fog.

We are doing so well that it may seem like a small thing to him, but I have been here with him once before.

After reading on this site I have a much greater understanding, and even sympathy for what he must have been going through.

I want to have a conversation with him about this. I need to KNOW that the nightmare is truly over, and in order to do that I need some idea of his thought processes leading up to the fog lifting.

His "deciding to live with integrity" is great if there's some meat behind it. But words are cheap, and his have proven to be untrustworthy more than once.

Am I wrong in feeling this way? Do you agree that you can't DECIDE the fog away? Would you be able to shed any light on your "trip out of the fog" for your BS?

Thanks again!


Posts: 26 | Registered: Aug 2009
Sandcrab
♀ Member
Member # 10067
Default  Posted: 1:49 PM, August 14th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

During the A, did any of you feel a sort of thrill at tricking your BS? Was that ever part of the dynamic of the relationship between you and the OP?

No and No. There was no thrill in tricking my BS. He believes that I was laughing at him the whole time. That is wrong also. I didn't think I would get caught so I didn't think about how my BS would feel. I know that is harse but it is the way that it was.


I ♥ LostJim

Adopt a chihuahua in your area
http://adopt-a-chihuahua.adoptapet.com/


Posts: 5618 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: wishing I was on an ocean beach somewhere...
Sandcrab
♀ Member
Member # 10067
Default  Posted: 1:56 PM, August 14th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Do you agree that you can't DECIDE the fog away?

I do agree with you to a point.

This is what happened to me.

I beleive I went through the "fading away" and then one day the fog wasn't as thick and there was an ah-ha moment that blew the rest of it away.

I couldn't give you a date though. That is one thing that I don't remember about that time.


I ♥ LostJim

Adopt a chihuahua in your area
http://adopt-a-chihuahua.adoptapet.com/


Posts: 5618 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: wishing I was on an ocean beach somewhere...
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 2:58 PM, August 14th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BreathingAgain -

Am I wrong in feeling this way? Do you agree that you can't DECIDE the fog away? Would you be able to shed any light on your "trip out of the fog" for your BS?

My experience goes a bit against your thinking. My fog lasted about 5 months. Some things did fade gradually over time. Triggers over some song xMOW liked or a phrase she used or a scene she painted in words....those types of things dissipated piece by piece. But the big remaining piece, the one that I had to come to terms with my need to focus on giving over taking and that I needed to focus on my BW above all others? That was more in an instant.

She had looked at my cell bill and found off hours calls to the same area code as xMOW. The calls were legit to a colleague at work that was in a tough spot. But the pain in my BW's eyes and her very visible fear was what snapped me into understanding the need for total focus on her. That's when all of the fog truly cleared for me.

I guess the only way I can put my experience is this:

Triggers fade over time.
Focus changes in an instant.

Not sure that can make sense to someone who hasn't lived it. But that's how it was for me.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
BreathingAgain
♀ New Member
Member # 25031
Default  Posted: 5:46 PM, August 14th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sandcrab & Listeningclosely

Thanks so much for your input!

I remember now something that happened that might explain the timing. We went to an event many miles from home. He had been planning the trip for months. We walked in and she was there. We turned around and left. We had a serious discussion/fight/meltdown that night then flew straight back home the next morning.

Maybe seeing me meltdown and the shock of her being there was the thing that finally ended the last of his fog.

It did prove to me that he was maintaining NC. There's no way he would have taken me there if he had know she would be at the event.

Maybe I just need to let it go. In the end what I really want is to have a conversation with him now that he is out of the fog and now that I have learned, through you, to have sympathy for his situation.

But it seems that every time I set out to have a conversation with him, I rehearse it in my head and think that I will feel better at the end. But the conversations end up making him so upset that even if it has put some things to rest for me, I still can't feel better when the person I love is so upset.

I am working with the MC on ways to talk and get what I need while trying to minimize the pain for him.

Any input or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks again. I do truly appreciate your taking the time to give me your input.


Posts: 26 | Registered: Aug 2009
ky_197220
♀ Member
Member # 24728
Default  Posted: 6:36 PM, August 14th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I would think he'd want to be home for the babies!!!

They are part of the stress that led him down the road he chose. He tried to come back last Friday. Friday went well. When Saturday came the panic just keep building and building until he was extremely worked up. He's afraid to face anyone.

He's afraid to hurt me again. I love him but at this point I don't know what to do. We are trying no contact after some blowouts early in the week. (I sent the OW an email letting her know the other side of what was going on. I don't think she was very happy about the lies she got either. WS was beside himself that I actually did it. I'm sure some of the things I said hurt too, but they weren't lies.) I miss my husband and I miss my step-kids. I'm so torn. I go from R to D a couple times a day. That's why I'm in this thread because only a WS can understand what he is going through.


BS with beautiful b/g twins

Status - happily divorced.


Posts: 156 | Registered: Jul 2009
want my marriage
♀ New Member
Member # 23869
Default  Posted: 9:47 PM, August 14th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Unexpected Song, I think my WH may have the same thoughts as you as far as wanting to be alone to deal with what he has done.

Dday was 11 mos ago. 3 weeks ago after me finding emails to/from MOW (coworker) again, I told him to leave. I do not want a husband who also has a girlfriend. He admitted he was wrong and that I deserve better.

Can't believe that we are in this situation. Have had a beautiful 24 year marriage with 2 great kids. He just can't seem to get out of the fog. He said they have limited contact and are trying to do NC. I also believe that MOW is not helping the situation. She wanted to leave her H for my H and is still pissed that my WH stayed with me and "broke it off" with her.

Maybe this separation is what he needs to realize what he will be giving up.

Any comments from other WS?


Me: BS - 46
Him: FWS -48 - PA & EA with co-worker (still works with her)
DDay: 9/3/08
Married 23 years & dated 5 years
2 Kids; 21 & 18 and niece & nephew also live with us 21 & 20
He moved out 7/30/09; in MC and hoping to restore good M

Posts: 30 | Registered: May 2009 | From: Massachusetts
beach
♀ Member
Member # 7533
Default  Posted: 10:02 PM, August 14th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

want my marriage,

Maybe this separation is what he needs to realize what he will be giving up.

We have never separated, but if he is no longer foggy and strict/complete NC with xMOW, then it would be possible.

IMHO, if he is still foggy or not over it, and if xMOW is still pursuing him, it could be temptation and turn into slipperly slope and cloud his mind and become confused again.

[This message edited by beach at 10:03 PM, August 14th (Friday)]


If you don't find peace with yourself, you cannot find anywhere else.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.

Posts: 8680 | Registered: Jul 2005 | From: midwest
nlovemyfamily
♀ Member
Member # 15258
Default  Posted: 6:50 PM, August 16th (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

could a foggy WS rspond to this quote?

Future consequences

One action, taken now, can have powerful consequences far into the future. That fact can be a blessing or a curse, depending of course on what the action is.

Time will magnify whatever you do. So even in the smallest matters, do what is right.

The direction and purpose of each effort are much more important than the size of the effort. For over time, all your efforts will add together to exert great influence on your life and your world.

Your future consequences are being born right now. This is a moment of great opportunity.

Point all your actions, large and small, important and seemingly insignificant, in the direction you wish to see your life move. Time will combine all those actions into an increasingly powerful set of results, and now is when you can choose those results.

With your efforts, choose to put time on your side. Make the future your friend by making the most of right now.

-- Ralph Marston


Posts: 415 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: nj
REALLY SAD
♀ Member
Member # 23030
Default  Posted: 10:55 PM, August 16th (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I was reading about "the fog" and the timeframe for the fog, whether or not a WS can "decide" to come out of the fog etc....my question is how do you really know if your WS is in the fog?

I'm wondering if my WH is in the fog or just done? Just done with me, our life, our M etc. I do think he's delusional and he's certainly changed (and not for the good) but is it fog and how would I know for sure?

We S'd 6 weeks ago, he said he just didn't know if his heart was in it any longer (found out still contact with OW) but as far as I know since we S'd he doesn't see her (she lives 4 hours away), there may still be contact by phone, text etc. I'm not sure and as far as I know she is dating someone. So I'm thinking relationship with OW isn't happening so him not being with me isn't because of her anymore, could he be foggy from the 2+ year A and the 6 months of false R and just so messed up? Or is his heart just really not in it with me and he's done? One would think that an 18 year relationship and 4 years of M would be hard to just be "done" with for someone not in the fog but I don't know....I've never been there.

I guess I'm thinking with foggy you stand a chance of it lifting and things becoming clearer but done is done?

Just wondering if anyone has anything to offer on this one?

RS


Truth whether good, bad or ugly can be dealt with. Hope on the other hand can be devastating!

Me - BS (37)
Him - WS (36)
Together - October 1991
Married - September 2005
DDay#1 - 12/29/08
DDay #2 - 02/21/09
His heart just isn't in it -


Posts: 162 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Canada
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Default  Posted: 7:38 AM, August 17th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Roccodom - I think your question may have gotten missed in the crowd. Sorry about that:

You know - why does it always come back to him?

Also, when he acts like he was just trying to be the hero (KISA) - this makes me think he doesn't "get it"

Without badgering him - how do I know what he really thinks cause it does bother me when he puts himself in the victim/hero role.

I think you have two different things to address here. As for the KISA approach being where he was during the A, be careful you are not preventing total honesty by trying to change his thinking that occurred during that time. As screwed up as it might have been, he was seeing through a fog at the time. As long as proper work is being done now and he is not showing tendencies today toward KISA, then you need to accept that he was that way then, and is different now.

he goes on to say that he has been "trying" and it just never seems to be good enough.

I know this feeling all too well, and it comes down to an issue he still hasn't resolved. External validation.

You need to get to the point where you are confident enough in yourself that if you are giving the best you can, it doesn't matter if someone else thinks less of you. The biggest resource that helped me here was "The Assertiveness Workbook" by Randy Paterson. Some of the key points the book makes that made a big impact on me were:

"I am my own judge"

"I do not have to justify myself to others"

"People can ask me anything they want"

and most importantly...

"I am in charge of my behavior, others are in charge of their behavior"

It sounds like your WH needs to do some more work on getting himself to that same place, where a challenge response from someone else makes him consider whether or not he can do more, but doesn't make him victimize himself as being "not good enough".


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
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Default  Posted: 7:47 AM, August 17th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

want my marriage -

He admitted he was wrong and that I deserve better.

This is a common and often telling quote. It usually reflects someone who is still trying to take the easy way out. In essence, an already low self esteem is ripped to shreds by being caught in an A. There are two paths to take - start to work on improving one's self and climb up, or give up and remain at the bottom.

When the latter is chosen, a WS needs to find the safest path out. So they put on the Eeyore face, get real down on themselves and say the BS deserves someone better. In essence, they don't have the courage to work on themselves, nor do they have the courage to release their BS and suggest getting a D. So instead, they try to tee up the BS to get them to be the ones to file for D instead. Then they can point to the world and say "see, I was was willing to try and fix things, but it was just too much for my spouse.". In their mind, this protects them from further erosion of their image in the eyes of others.

When in this state, I think it's important to not let the WS retreat, but confront them. Let them know that there is still a belief that they can get back to being a healthy person but they are the one that has to do the work. IC is a must. They have to learn to strengthen their image of themselves in order to heal.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
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Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 7:55 AM, August 17th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

nlovemyfamily =

could a foggy WS rspond to this quote?

It may be tough finding a still foggy WS to respond, as in that state I would not have been ready to venture out of the Wayward forum, let alone respond directly to the question of a BS.

From a reflective perspective though, I can say that nothing during my A involved any kind of foresight or thought about what outcomes would be. Everything was consistently "in the moment". We talk a lot about the similarities to drug addiction, because it is truly a similar feeling to a WS. A drug addict knows that after the high wears off they will crash. They know the chance that they will be arrested, thrown in jail, lose their family, their job, etc. are all very real. They know the consequences, yet they still take their next hit. Why? Because the intensity of the focus on their need for a high is so powerful that it focuses them on the current moment only. It masks all future consequences from their mind at that time.

In the A, it's the same thing. The interaction with the OP gives the current high, and any thought of future consequences is totally hidden from view. So while the quote is valid, it won't matter to the WS when their focus is on the high they need from the A.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 8:02 AM, August 17th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

REALLY SAD -

how do you really know if your WS is in the fog?

I'm not sure there is a way to definitively tell. But I do feel strongly that is NC has not been established and IC has not been started, the probability that they are still in their fog is very high (think 99.9%). If NC has been in place for a while and several IC sessions have taken place to sort out the WS's own issues, it becomes more likely that they are thinking more clearly and are being far more honest with themselves.

as far as I know since we S'd he doesn't see her (she lives 4 hours away), there may still be contact by phone, text etc. I'm not sure and as far as I know she is dating someone. So I'm thinking relationship with OW isn't happening so him not being with me isn't because of her anymore

Don't confuse physical proximity with the power of an A's draw. I had a four month online EA with a xMOW who was about 1,000 miles away from where I live. My fog was maintained through online posts, IM's, text messages and phone calls. It had nothing to do with physically seeing her during that time. If he has any contact, even just online and by phone, he's likely still very foggy.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
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