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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Spouses/Partners of Sex Addicts 4
Stop
♂ Member
Member # 23564
Default  Posted: 11:37 PM, December 17th (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

mommyblonde,

I think you have it right. The first step is to genuinely let go of the outcome knowing that you can;t control his addictions or his actions. Looking out for yourself in every way will come easier when you have genuinely accepted that you are powerless to control the outcome.

I have received much serenity by listening to my support group, IC, COSA group, sponsor, and by reading all I can about how to control me and let go of her addictions. It works.

I wish you the best. You can get through it. You didn't cause it, you can't control it, you can't change it. You can only control/change you. Doing that will get you through it.

[This message edited by Stop at 11:38 PM, December 17th (Thursday)]


Me: Recovering codependent BH
Her: Long term gambling addict, unadmitted,unrepentant,practicing sex addict.
I didn't cause it, I can't control it, I can't fix it.
"Healing starts when you start taking care of yourself and let go of

Posts: 90 | Registered: Apr 2009 | From: Midwest
srb1608
♀ Member
Member # 19477
Default  Posted: 6:35 AM, December 19th (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just wanted to ask what yall think. My H in general has always been a sexual person and had never been faithful to most of his girlfriends. Then in our 12 year of marriage he went thru what i thought was a midlife crisis, tatoo's, motorcycle, affair, then left me and slept with affair woman and 2 more while he was gone.
We reconciled and now 18 months later discover he was in an ea headed to pa. We go to couseling and he gets upset saying he doesnt want to lose me as he loves me, is in love with me, loves everything about our life, but doesnt know why he keeps risking it all. Why he sees what is headed in the wrong direction but yet cant walk away from inappropriate situations. The counselor thinks he has tendencies of a Sex addict and is sending us to a SAA group.

My question is if this diagnosis is wrong will going to this group make things worse? I am paranoid as hell about EVERYTHING now.

Thanks in advance!


BS- me 37
WS -him 37
Married 13 years

Posts: 2220 | Registered: May 2008
JustWow
♀ Member
Member # 19636
Default  Posted: 7:36 AM, December 19th (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Srb-
In my opinion, if there is a question of SA, the very best thing to do is get evaluated by a CSAT - certified sex addiction thereapist. Any thing less can be dangerous at worst, and a waste of time and money at the best.

Here is a link to find a CSAT near your zip code:

http://www.iitap.com/find_csat.cfm

If your H is indeed SA, from our experience, he needs a CSAT, a group and a sponsor, and working the 12 steps in earnest, and recovery is quite straightforward IF IF IF he embraces it. My H spent 8 months with an IC who claimed to be qualified to treat SA, but he wasn't. H was going to Celebrate Recovery SA groups and seeing this bozo weekly and made no real progress. It was frustrating.

Lets say your H isn't SA but mistakenly gets diagnosed as SA. So he works with a CSAT and a group. The recovery program for SA is about getting sexually sober - meaning not enganging in unhealthy addictive sexual outlets. It is about healing the wounds that led the SA to use this unhealthy coping mechanism, it is about teaching them healthy coping skills and learning how to be truly intimate - emotionally and sexually - with their partner. I really do not see how being involved in an SA recovery program could HARM someone, even if they weren't SA.

Please see a CSAT. They often are not covered by insurance, but it is soooooooo worth the expense. We have gone both routes. The unqualified IC who was covered who was worthless, and the uncovered CSAT at $100 a pop who has helped so much we'd pay double if we had it - and we don't!!!


BW - Reconciling

edited for typos (I always have to!)


Posts: 3556 | Registered: May 2008 | From: Midwest
PixieDust
♀ Member
Member # 21842
Default  Posted: 4:18 AM, December 20th (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

To SRB...when I looked on my benefits, I found 2 counselors in all of Houston that were CSATS and on my emotional health insurance (or what ever they call it.) One had a full practice...but we did make an appointment with the other CSAT for Jan. (She is having surgery and couldnt do it till then. ) So at least LOOK through your provider list and see what you can find, as far as CSATs go. Its going to be a 40 min drive for us probably, and I might not have gone to the trouble if CSATs had not been so encouraged here on SI.

Pixiedust

[This message edited by PixieDust at 4:19 AM, December 20th (Sunday)]


Me(38): FWW/BW
Him(33): FBH/WH
Married: 6 years
DD(2), DS (8mo)DS in heaven
Status: Learning a bunch of new letters: SA, SAA, CSAT and COSA. How fun.

Posts: 150 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: Texas
lost_in_space
♀ Member
Member # 24302
Default  Posted: 10:38 AM, December 22nd (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So I haven't really posted much in this on this thread b/c WH had not even read a book on SA or been to a meeting so I have thought that he is using it as a cop out for bad choices he's made. He also is not going to any counselors.

He went to a meeting for the first time this morning. He says that the group consists of 6 men including him and that the senior member has 8 year sobriety but is mentally challanged. The next in line has 110 days sobriety. The others had 1 or 2 days. From the description I'm not sure how helpful that group can really be.

Anyone have some insight?

Thanks.


Me: BW 38

Last DDay: 7/15/09
TT: 2/28/11
TT: 3/5/11
Dday again: 3/10/2011
All Done: Better late then never.


Posts: 3513 | Registered: Jun 2009
TooManyYears
♀ Member
Member # 26108
Default  Posted: 10:48 AM, December 22nd (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh LIS, welcome!

Nope, not a good group to be in. My H's CSAT told him that there are good and bad 12 step groups, and that a good group would have enough people in recovery to actually help out the newer members and provide support. A group where they are all new to sobriety and slipping is probably not a good place to be.

My H attends SAA. Even though a lot of people put down SAA as more lax (and it probably is), my H's CSAT thought this was a strong group that had members with years of sobriety. Your H probably needs to look around at another group.

I am sort of impressed that your H is attending a group though. Is he taking the things we all said to him to heart? Or is it a lame attempt to say that he tried? Is he behaving any better these days? How are you holding up, and what are you doing for you?


Me- 40
H, rSA- 46
2 young adult children
Married 21 years
Last D-day 9/19/09 (Many before this)

Posts: 496 | Registered: Nov 2009
lost_in_space
♀ Member
Member # 24302
Default  Posted: 12:42 PM, December 22nd (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm not doing much for me. I have good days and bad days.

I'm not sure he has taken anything that was said to him to heart. Just a couple of nights ago he was telling me I was a bitch, that I was a drunk, (I had 1/2 a glass of wine while arguing with him), and a couple of days before that he was telling me that when he started his multiple As that I wasn't there for him and it contributed. At that time I had just given birth to our youngest via a difficult c-section where I almost died and then when I got the ok to resume sex it hurt so much I started going to the gyno and found out I have a severe bacterial infection that he gave me. There's more but you get the idea. He later said he shouldn't have said it but this is common for him. He says and does stuff to hurt me and then is all nice the following day. It just seems like he is getting meaner and meaner towards me.

I didn't think that the group was a good one for him. I will try and encourage him to try another one. There isn't even anyone in it that can be his sponsor. That can't be good. More then likely he will choose to stay in that one as it will be easier for him. That is if he keeps it up. I don't know. Maybe he will surprise me. I'm so skeptical now.


Me: BW 38

Last DDay: 7/15/09
TT: 2/28/11
TT: 3/5/11
Dday again: 3/10/2011
All Done: Better late then never.


Posts: 3513 | Registered: Jun 2009
IRN2006
♀ Member
Member # 23717
Default  Posted: 10:41 PM, December 22nd (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LIS-
Glad to see you here.

SA is online (through yahoo groups) and also has phone meetings. If your husband doesn't find a good fit, maybe those will work.

One thing, I've found for ourselves, is that not every recovery tool works for every person. My husband and I both got the best help from seeing a CSAT (for my husband) and someone who understood sa (for me.) The 12-step groups really didn't work for either of us.

Some people swear by online messageboards or places like recoverynation.com.



Posts: 1295 | Registered: Apr 2009
twokids
♀ Member
Member # 23266
Default  Posted: 12:27 AM, December 23rd (Wednesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I've been reading here the last 6 weeks. Dday was 9 mos ago (EA/PA of 4 mos). A prior Dday 8 years previous. After this most recent Dday I was doing the heavy lifting: I got books, arranged for IC/MC, a couples workshop, and we were limping along.

6weeks ago I found he had posted online for 'intimate encounters' and based on what I read here I decided he was an addict. Additional detective work on my part revealed OW1 was back and an OW 2.

At this point I was ready to D and had detached. I set my boundaries: get help or go. To my surprise he got help. He picked up 3 books and is tearing thru them. He attended his first SAA meeting and wants to continue. He scheduled IC. He went NC with OW 1&2.

And he has completely changed how he treats me. He no longer blames me for his affairs. Now I realize that he's an addict and there are no promises for tomorrow.

But maybe, just maybe, the nightmare of 2009 is drawing to a close. I credit this forum for helping recognize the problem and giving me guidance and support.

God bless you all.


Me: BS, 56
Him: WH, 50
5+ DDAYS; 10+ OW
Two sons, 16 & 18
M 19 yrs - detaching to divorce
In-house Separation since 7/2012

Posts: 393 | Registered: Mar 2009 | From: California
PixieDust
♀ Member
Member # 21842
Default  Posted: 4:11 AM, December 23rd (Wednesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LIS - My husband tried to go to an SAA meeting the week after DDay and couldnt find the meeting at all. (He said he found a Weight Watchers group, but didnt really think they could help him. )

He made an appointment with a CSAT and she was able to point him towards a very large SAA group that meets downtown. Its a 45 min drive for him once a week, but its a large meeting. He didnt get in to particulars, but he said that he has 2 people who he can call anytime. SAA seems to have more meetings in our town than SA. Keep looking in your area. Even if he has to drive a bit farther for a good meeting, it will be worth it.
I have been working through Recoverynation.com's partner workshop. I think some of it is helpful, some of it - not so much. I cant get WH to even look at that site.
The hardest part for me is to step back and not control or manage his recovery. He has to want it. and he has to do it by himself. He made an appointment for us with a CSAT in late Jan. She wanted to see both of us for the first appointment. But otherwise, Im going to try really hard to heal myself and let him do his own thing. I read, I think in Mending a Shattered Heart, that 18 months is a fair time to let him work on himself before re-evaluating weather to stay married or not. Since I am having a baby in May, and I'm stuck in a contract at my work for another year, I figure I can at least give him 12 months.
I dont know if I will go to a COSA meeting or not. I will probably ask our CSAT's opinion on it. I read through the steps and Im just not feeling it. But I think as someone said, not every tool works for every person. Find the ones that work for you.
And take care of you! One of the things recovery nation had me do, was remember what my dreams and values were before WH's addiction turned the world upside down. and imagine what my life will be like when I am that person again. I have made 2 small promises to myself that I will do next year. 1) apply for attend grad school part time in the fall. 2) go back to weight watchers after the baby is born. Just making some plans that have only to do with you, might make you feel more like LIS less like Alice in Wonderland.
Good Luck!
(PS I hope this was really insight and not a t/j. DDAy #3 was only Nov 30 and somtimes my vision is a little narrow.)

ETA: I just re-read one of your posts. There would be a difference for me if WH was abusive. Verbally or otherwise. WH is abjectly sorry and says he wants to fix himself so that he can be a good daddy. He is always sweet to me. (Expect for this one little porn/prostitue problem ) If he called me a bitch, he'd get his walking papers. I would have no trouble, packing up DD and our things, breaking my contract and moving back to where both our moms live. Please do what you think is right for you, to make you better and whole. You deserve someone who treats you with love and respect.
HUGS
Pixiedust

[This message edited by PixieDust at 4:19 AM, December 23rd (Wednesday)]


Me(38): FWW/BW
Him(33): FBH/WH
Married: 6 years
DD(2), DS (8mo)DS in heaven
Status: Learning a bunch of new letters: SA, SAA, CSAT and COSA. How fun.

Posts: 150 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: Texas
too trusting BW
♀ Member
Member # 15459
Default  Posted: 8:02 AM, December 23rd (Wednesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LIS,
I am so glad you are seeking some help for yourself.
His attendance at a meeting (good or bad) is his deal. If it is not helpful then he has the ability to look for another.
It isn't your job.
I know, easier to say than to do, but leave him to figure his stuff out.

When we try to "help" too much we set ourselves up for resentment when they fail to follow through.
It's difficult to resist when we can see the answers for them so clearly, isn't it?

My opinion on 12 step groups:
Do not view it as a "fix it" for your issues or your marriage issues. Look at it as one more thing to do for YOU. Time spent with people that "get" the hell we are going through is so powerfully healing IMO.

My COSA group has had only two members regular; Me and the lady that started it. We have had several that were regular for a while then stopped. We have 2 women that have been fairly regular since Sept.
Neither of us has begun doing the steps rigorously as we are not fully prepared yet, and will just need to support one another rather than be a sponsor.

We are adapting as we need to. Having that one hour a week is one hour that I can say is all about taking care of me.
Try COSA for about 5 visits before making up your mind. No cost, and it is one hour a week you can leave home and just be there for yourself. I am really glad I did. Up to the 4th COSA meeting I was thinking I wouldn't keep coming, but I did.


Me 39
SA-FWH 44
11yrs M
In R-maybe
3 DC from Marriage #1
1 DS together
at least 4 d-days

Posts: 1300 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Kansas
lost_in_space
♀ Member
Member # 24302
Default  Posted: 11:18 AM, December 23rd (Wednesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you all for the support.

Yes he is abusive. He knows about the telemeetings and groups. He did a couple of chat meetings and then just said it wasn't for him. We no longer have insurance b/c he lost great job due to misconduct with his APs at work.

I know that if I want the cycle to go stop for me I have to get myself out of it. It has been a long process but I am now in the right direction for that to happen. Not easy at ALL! It is very confusing that one minute he is saying how he will do the right thing and all that and then a bit later he is a jerk and then in the morning he is back to being sorry. Typical abusive cycle. Right now we are in separate rooms and I have told him not to try his lovey dovey stuff on me. If I can keep my distance it helps. When he violates my space I tell him he has no respect for me and then he turns tail and and leaves b/c he doesn't want to hear it.

I have a book called "How Can I Forgive You" that is about accepting someone for who they are without forgiving. It all about accepting someone for who they are and then deciding if you can live with them or not. I think that should help me realize more who he REALLY is and stop pretending that someday he will just stop being the way he is. He doesn't seem to be taking concrete steps to working on himself so I need to accept that he doesn't plan on changing.


Me: BW 38

Last DDay: 7/15/09
TT: 2/28/11
TT: 3/5/11
Dday again: 3/10/2011
All Done: Better late then never.


Posts: 3513 | Registered: Jun 2009
Stop
♂ Member
Member # 23564
Default  Posted: 9:39 PM, December 23rd (Wednesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am 100% sure that this coming week is very tough for all of us. Those together years have lots of happy memories of the holiday season and the change triggers resentment and depression in me.

A triple whammy next week; the holidays, also Dec 28 2008 was the first day she started trolling the porn website, and Dec 31 is our 22nd wedding anniversary. None of those feel real good now.

I am very lucky to have a great support system, IC, COSA, sponsor, lots of books, and a wonderful grown daughter to talk to. So I will be fine, just have to get through the week.

If any of you have not been working on developing your support system I highly recommend it. I feel really bad now but I would be a basket case if I didn't have my support system.

Thanks for listening, I get a lot from reading your posts as well.


Me: Recovering codependent BH
Her: Long term gambling addict, unadmitted,unrepentant,practicing sex addict.
I didn't cause it, I can't control it, I can't fix it.
"Healing starts when you start taking care of yourself and let go of

Posts: 90 | Registered: Apr 2009 | From: Midwest
PixieDust
♀ Member
Member # 21842
Default  Posted: 11:38 PM, December 23rd (Wednesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yea...December kind of sucks for me. Dec 4 is my Angel baby's birthday. Dec 17 is our anniversary. Now its also the month I started trying to wade through all this sex addiction stuff. And you are right, being so close to Christmas, New Years...this is supposed to be a joyous time. Im glad DD not quite 2...she has no idea that mommy just isnt feeling the season this year.
On the other hand...the we had our 20 week US yesterday. and she comfirmed that we are having a healthy baby boy in May. We kind of knew that, but it was really early when she did the last US, and we are very glad to hear he is healthy.
I watched Polar Express tonight and the end, when he is shaking the bell and he doesnt hear anything and he wants to hear it so bad...thats how I feel. When did I stop hearing the Jingle Bell...I didnt even notice.
Merry Christmas everyone. Dont let your spouse define Christmas for you. Embrace it and love it...even if you can only do it for just one day.


Me(38): FWW/BW
Him(33): FBH/WH
Married: 6 years
DD(2), DS (8mo)DS in heaven
Status: Learning a bunch of new letters: SA, SAA, CSAT and COSA. How fun.

Posts: 150 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: Texas
twokids
♀ Member
Member # 23266
Default  Posted: 1:38 PM, December 25th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Stop and Pixie Dust,

Thanks for your encouragement not to let our pain and losses kill our Christmas joy. I'm putting on a happy face for my boys, my friends, and my family. Sometimes I feel I can't keep trying, and I'm worried I'm going to burst into tears in the middle of the room if someone inadvertantly says a trigger word (please don't say Chicago).

Things that keep my positive include reading this website, my books, and thinking about my next COSA meeting.

Happy Holidays to you all


Me: BS, 56
Him: WH, 50
5+ DDAYS; 10+ OW
Two sons, 16 & 18
M 19 yrs - detaching to divorce
In-house Separation since 7/2012

Posts: 393 | Registered: Mar 2009 | From: California
watchingU
♀ Member
Member # 22144
Default  Posted: 10:30 AM, December 28th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I feel so alone today. I'm coming to grips with the fact that my WH does have some sort of personality disorder. He is SA to some degree, the attachment disorder. In my heart I know our situation will not change. He is saying all the right things, he's sorry, he's changed. He doesn't have any desire to act out again. But I know differently now. I've watched him, read so many books, and then there's my 'knower' (gut). Things will never really change. I'll always be waiting for the other shoe to drop. Always.

So why can't I leave him??? Why do I hope beyond any reasonable hope? Why do I focus on his good qualities and try to pretend I can live with the acting out? Honestly, I don't even know the extent of his acting out. He won't be truthful. I have to give up that expectation. He will never admit the whole truth.

Does the fact that I loved him almost 40 years override the fact that I'm dying inside? That my world today is a black sadness. Oh I make resolutions to take care of myself and detach from him. But is that really possible when you live with someone and have sex relationship with them and pretend that all is okay?
You can only pretend so long.

I have no support system whatsoever. My WH is pretty much it. He has total control over my life and has since I was 16 yrs old. I see that clearly now.

I feel so hopeless. I don't want to live like this anymore.

How do you guys accept the unacceptable? How do you continue to live with your SA and not judge yourself as stupid for doing so? How do you find happines in all this sorrow?


BW me 60(naive until 3/30/07 Dday)
WH 60(PA w/SIL PA with neighbor, 100's of EAs,chat rooms, M 1969
Multiple Ddays over the past 4 yrs (about prior infidelities, not new ones) My Gut says WH Has cheated thruout M

Posts: 520 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: South
lost_in_space
♀ Member
Member # 24302
Default  Posted: 3:49 PM, December 28th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

watchingU - I have not accepted WH's actions and am no longer in the same room with him or having sex with him. Just recently (today) I thought about how I am not special to him sexually. He will have sex with pretty much anything with a vagina and I am too important to allow someone like that to have access to mine. I rather have no one touch me then to let him do it. You are important too! If he really wants access to you sexually then he needs to do the work.

As for how to find happiness in all this, I have been finding it outside of home. I find it at my DS's school, at relative's homes, and although I struggle with it sometimes, I am doing better with it all the time. You will too. Also SI is a great place for support. I don't know if I'd be this far if it hadn't been for SI.


Me: BW 38

Last DDay: 7/15/09
TT: 2/28/11
TT: 3/5/11
Dday again: 3/10/2011
All Done: Better late then never.


Posts: 3513 | Registered: Jun 2009
Helen of Troy
♀ Member
Member # 26419
Default  Posted: 6:00 PM, December 29th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi all. BS here with a question. Over a few years when WH and I were not using condoms I had a few months of recurring bacterial vaginosis. He was messing around at this time. From what I could find on the internet, this is seldom seen in monogamous relationships. I wasn't doing any of the things you shouldn't do as female (without getting too graphic here about hygiene).
Just wondering if anyone other parnters of SAs have had BV. Do you think it is sexually transmitted?
Almost sick thinking about this now but have to know.
Thanks.

[This message edited by will get by at 6:01 PM, December 29th (Tuesday)]


Posts: 4610 | Registered: Dec 2009
PixieDust
♀ Member
Member # 21842
Default  Posted: 2:57 AM, December 30th (Wednesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Will get by,

"Researchers have had difficulty determining exactly what causes bacterial vaginosis. At present, it seems to be that a combination of multiple bacteria must be present together for the problem to develop. Bacterial vaginosis typically features a reduction in the number of the normal hydrogen peroxide-producing lactobacilli in the vagina. Simultaneously, there is an increase in concentration of other types of bacteria, especially anaerobic bacteria (bacteria that grow in the absence of oxygen). As a result, the diagnosis and treatment are not as simple as identifying and eradicating a single type of bacteria. Why the bacteria combine to cause the infection is unknown.

Certain factors have been identified that increase the chances of developing bacterial vaginosis. These include multiple or new sexual partners, vaginal douching, and cigarette smoking. However, the role of sexual activity in the development of the condition is not fully understood, and bacterial vaginosis can still develop in women who have not had sexual intercourse."

Which isnt to say your partner's infidelity didnt contribute. It doesnt mean he is a sex addict, though. I think I had that during my adventurous single 20s, now that i think about it. You should check with your doctor.
good luck.


Me(38): FWW/BW
Him(33): FBH/WH
Married: 6 years
DD(2), DS (8mo)DS in heaven
Status: Learning a bunch of new letters: SA, SAA, CSAT and COSA. How fun.

Posts: 150 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: Texas
ChooseJoy
♀ New Member
Member # 26955
Default  Posted: 1:02 AM, December 31st (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm new to this forum, but nearly 35 years old to the subject. I didn't know the meaning of co-dependent until last year, when working through a book study "The Healing Choice" by Susan Allen. Talk about a brick wall-full body slam!!!!! Over the years there has always been a reason not to make waves---at the beginning, I was not able to provide for the children, and did not want to disappoint parents or in-laws by causing a breakup in our small community.Later on, there was always a reason to delay a confrontation-busy raising children,and then helping with elderly in-laws--then grandchildren---holidays...... Always excuses............
Anyway, have just ordered the book most recommended, and also "Tough Love" by James Dobson.
My WS has actually been living an hour away for the past three years, and finally decided to move home for financial reasons. When confronted with boundaries I had set (filters on computers, locks on tv, and counseling), he chose to rent a cheaper apartment. I am trying hard to hold fast now and "abandon the outcome". I am so tired of thinking that I can control him into doing the right thing..........,,
We had a long conversation last week---He had not told me about getting another apartment--He just "assumed" I knew when I gave him all the "conditions" for him coming home......He continues to lie----not good................


Me:52 definition of co-dependent
Him:56 born for self indulgence
Married 34yrs
3 grown children
porn/dating sites/im other women, etc. etc. etc.

Posts: 5 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Texas
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