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User Topic: Long Term Affair Thread XV
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 8:57 PM, August 28th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Excellent posts.... hurtshirley... I feel much the same way as you do.
I am 2 and 1/2 yrs. post d-day and I am still so sad and hurt . I just can't seem to shake that sadness for very long.... a few hours at most.
My husband is doing anything and everything to be the 'perfect' husband... but, it just doesn't erase the feeling of loss that I have.
Ironically, before the affair, our marriage was in trouble due to his problems with alcohol....but it was different.
I didn't feel so completely destroyed. I was angry with him, disappointed, etc.
And now...he is 100% sober...something I wished for our entire marriage and that is a big reason for my decision to reconcile.....but, I am just heart broken over the affair.
I guess I never saw the drinking as a personal affront... the 5 yr long affair....well..that's different. No matter how often he says she meant nothing to him... I just feel so sad... I feel that he was completely disloyal to me, just threw me under the bus after all we had been through together.
I truly believe that I could have understood and dealt with a ONS or a short affair... I would have seen that as more of a 'mistake'.
It's the length of the affair...5 years... it still makes me sick to my stomach when I think about it..
will I ever feel any happier? will ever feel any better about reconciling? will I eventually stop questioning my decision to stay? or..will I be an 80 yr old lady... regretting all of this?
sorry..if this post triggers anyone...
I know how that can happen.
Believe me...I do have some positive days..when I feel strong and positive...
today is not one of those...
thanks for listening.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
leapyearbaby
♀ Member
Member # 24902
Default  Posted: 11:59 PM, August 28th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

HS...good to have you back...so sorry you lost your father...hope you are feeling better.

These people had LTA(s) and affairs for years because they were monumentally fucked up. Fucked up in a way that those of us with a shred of normalcy will never understand. At some level they are as mentally broken as serial killers. They JUST DON’T CARE about the consequences to others. (the good news is that they didn’t really care about the OP either – only the fantasy that existed around this person). The bad news is that we must admit to ourselves that they WERE capable of anything. I believe I know the truth because his confession was so awful and so complete. He has never been faithful because he only cared about himself. My H has admitted that he used and abused me to get what he wanted. I was the vision of the good life and he could have his seedy life on the side. He admits he was pathologically selfish and knew just when to smooth things over so he didn’t lose what he needed.

This part of your post really resonated with me...but the question I still can't answer after 15 months is WHY? Why do those of us, particularly the LTAs WANT to reconcile? In may case after being cheated on for half our marriage? I just can't get it straight in my head. Apparently I want to..otherwise I would have been long gone. Financially independent and able to take care of myself, so it isn't that. But why? I know it is different for everyone, but it seems that for some of us at least, there seems to be a common thread of wanting, needing this particular person despite the horrendous damage they have done.
I found anew book last week that seems to be the best I have read so far. "Getting Past the Affair". Only read 3 chapters, but seems to have some real concrete answers on the nuts and bolts of reconciling, the how-tos. One paragraph talks about feeling like you will never reconnect with your WS, but still not able to imagine life without them. That is exactly where I am and have been, but I still don't know WHY!!!
Any thoughts?


me BS the Big 6-0!!
him WS 56
married 28 years
together 31
DD 6/10/08
ow #1,2 lta on and off since 1995
ow 3 ons summer 2005
2 D, mine from prior marriage, but he raised them
R'ing...probably not....but then again, maybe....


Posts: 1375 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: Colorado
leapyearbaby
♀ Member
Member # 24902
Default  Posted: 12:00 AM, August 29th (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ps...Ok, I give up. What is FOO? Not in abbreviations and I can't figure it out from the context of several references here that have used it.


me BS the Big 6-0!!
him WS 56
married 28 years
together 31
DD 6/10/08
ow #1,2 lta on and off since 1995
ow 3 ons summer 2005
2 D, mine from prior marriage, but he raised them
R'ing...probably not....but then again, maybe....


Posts: 1375 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: Colorado
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 6:50 AM, August 29th (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey leapyearbaby...
Why do those of us, particularly the LTAs WANT to reconcile?
We both were living the married but singles life... We always have since the day we've been married... Why is it today we are closer then before? (With great pain I might add?)

This is an awaking. Yes, I could have chosen another woman to wake up with...

People change... This is fact.

My wife is my best friend. She comforts me when I'm sick and when I'm down. She and I are bonded by my kids with unconditional love. I dream of a future sharing grandchildren, togather. My wife is a good cook and works hard in my house. We have fun going to Colts football, movies and a glass of wine. Our conversations are fun and interesting. We like the same foods and same jokes. We have a partnership we have built with success financially. She is a good quality lover and very pleasing to look at. We have shared faith in God.

Love is a choice. You can decide to love your spouse or not. If you decide to love, then you go forward...

Is it a risk? yes. If you risk it and dejavoux.. then move on.

Is moving forward with some other relationship a risk? yes...

[This message edited by trynhard at 6:56 AM, August 29th (Saturday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
MollyBrown
♀ New Member
Member # 25061
Default  Posted: 8:14 AM, August 29th (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Njga1480: I so agree with you, if it had been a short A or ONS, I think I would also be able to get past it quicker, particularly if it had given him a wake up call and he had come running back to me crying “I’m so sorry, how could I have been so stupid?” (preferably on his knees)

LYB: FOO=family of origin. Thanks for the book recommendation, I’ve been re-reading “Not Just Friends” and “Infidelity: A Survival Guide” but they’re just not what I need. I’ll check out "Getting Past the Affair".

I’ve been trying to figure out just what it is I need.

I understand the how and most of the why.

I can see he’s turned his life upside down and maybe even inside out, he’s trying hard and making good genuine changes.

I miss my old feelings, beliefs about us, and dreams but I would never want the old him or old marriage back. I like how things are between us now, it’s actually great if I don’t think about the A.

If I read this story in a book, I would want her to take him back so that they could share their love and live out the life they were meant to.

I know that I could look at this as making us closer, stronger. I could look at it as just one part of the story of “us”, not the biggest part or the most important. I can let this kill our marriage or not. I can let his A have the last say or not.

It’s time to move forward. What is it I need in order to be able to do that?

I know that the OW didn’t mean that much to him, that he used their contact to give him a boost. I understand that for him, it wasn’t much more significant than if he went to the gym to work out (albeit a lot more titillating and exciting ).

My problem is, that even if she didn’t mean that much to him, he shared a “secret us” with her for 3.5 years and that is a very long time. Despite what she did or did not mean to him, he gave her a very special role in his life which he fed and watered and tended carefully for a very long time. I was the weed to be kept out of that garden. I know that sounds like an ego issue but I hate that I had ABSOLUTELY NO idea. We made fun of how much time away his job required and which girlfriend he would be visiting with this time, BUT IT WAS JUST A JOKE, we could joke like that because it was such an impossibility (NOT!). I feel like such an idiot now. He counted on and used my total belief, trust and devotion to get away with it for all that time. He knew I never questioned him and wouldn’t dream of looking in his computer or phone. He was above reproach and suspicion. He never even bothered to hide their e-mails to each other. They were there all along as were their calls in his phone. I wish I could say with hindsight that I knew something was going on, maybe that would make it easier.

Have any of you been able to get past this?

[This message edited by MollyBrown at 8:16 AM, August 29th (Saturday)]


The Unsinkable Molly Brown:
"Sure I may be tuckered, and I may give out, but I won't give IN!"
"I mean more to me than I mean to anybody else."

Posts: 47 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: Europe
Ms.Martha
♀ Member
Member # 23951
Default  Posted: 6:39 PM, August 29th (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I sat next to my BF's cell phone for two years. I never looked in it. I thought about it, but I didn't want to get caught. I didn't want to tip him off. Urrrgggghhh, if I had looked 2 years ago and called two years ago.... I would have been gone. Cause that's when I caught him the first time though that was an ONS. He's been dating this girl I think for 8 or so years. Through the end of his last marriage and all through our courtship. He told his family he intends to marry me. they all call me Sis. Hah.......

Posts: 172 | Registered: May 2009
ejs5
♀ Member
Member # 24607
Default  Posted: 12:05 AM, August 30th (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tell me about the book Getting Past the Affair...I'm liking Not just Friends because that is how my husbands two affairs, one was emotional and the last was the 2.5 year PA started they were with people he knew from work, and he is still friends with one of the guys from work...and my husband would prefer me not to meet him because he thinks I will hang it over this guys head what an ass he is...well he is a single womanizing guy who contantly sends provocative pics of girls he is seeing or trashy text messages of who he is doing so of course I don't want my husband to head down that way to hang out and drink around the campfire in the back yard and spend the night because he has drank too much. He used this guy as a cover so he could sleep over at tampon's house(stole that name from another thread, he soaked her up and threw her away).
But I am always looking for more books to read and learn from. I am also reading Broken Open that our MC recommended to me, it is okay some is to emotional for me to read less than 3 months out.

Hey Molly I have a friend that is in Sweden and she said it has always been more open about sex and breastfeeding etc...at least in her experience:)


DD June 2nd 2009
Me BW 38
Him WS 40
No reconciliation was all false 2.5 LTA now a couple of months affair...

Posts: 256 | Registered: Jun 2009 | From: Done
MollyBrown
♀ New Member
Member # 25061
Default  Posted: 8:25 AM, August 30th (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ejs5: Yes, all of Scandinavia is much more relaxed with all natural body functions, it’s all just part of life. Especially where children and family are concerned. I think they are more “child friendly” with children and raising children in general. There’s more room for children to be part of society. Probably also why they also have much longer maternity leave. One of the good points, but there are also plenty of negatives too.

More ramblings:
I’ve been dealing with the question of why my WH wants to be with me now (besides the fact that I’m just plain wonderful ). I read the post asking why so many of us want to reconcile with LTA spouses. I was then was reading in recon. and it made me think about why so many WS’s suddenly want to “save” their M and be with their BS. I wonder if it’s sincere or just some kind of reaction?

My WH says that the reason his A lasted so long was because he presented something to OW (an image/promise/lie) and he had to be accountable to that. If he wasn’t, it would mean that what he had presented wasn’t true and he didn’t want to admit that. But at the same time, he says that he knew it was a lie all along and he just thought of it as a game. Here is where I get confused. How do you not admit something to yourself that you know? How could it have contributed to his fantasy image if he knew it was a lie? Wouldn’t he have had to believe it if for it to work? He also says he didn’t want to believe that he was an insincere creep using her but either he had to know he was an insincere creep or the “lie” he presented to her was true and he wasn’t a creep.

I can see that when he was with me, he had to be accountable to the image/promise/lie he presented to me and when he was with her, he had to be accountable to the image/promise/lie he presented her. So how does being a lying, cheating, deceiving husband fit into the image with me? And how does being an insincere creep fit the image with her? I just still don’t get this part.

Anyway, my concern is that he’s still doing same thing with me, being accountable to an image/promise/lie he presented to me, and it doesn’t mean that he loves me. If he can get me to believe that he really has loved me all these years and the image/promise/lie he presented to me was true then somehow he continues to exist or win or something. But if he has to admit that it was all a lie, what is left of him?

Hope you all are having a good weekend


The Unsinkable Molly Brown:
"Sure I may be tuckered, and I may give out, but I won't give IN!"
"I mean more to me than I mean to anybody else."

Posts: 47 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: Europe
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 8:56 AM, August 30th (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

njgal:

My husband is doing anything and everything to be the 'perfect' husband... but, it just doesn't erase the feeling of loss that I have.
Ironically, before the affair, our marriage was in trouble due to his problems with alcohol....but it was different.
I didn't feel so completely destroyed. I was angry with him, disappointed, etc.
And now...he is 100% sober...something I wished for our entire marriage and that is a big reason for my decision to reconcile.....but, I am just heart broken over the affair.

take out the words "sober" and "alcohol"...substitute them for "foo" and "work"...and you have summed up my feelings....

i was at a si g2g yesterday, which was wonderful btw, anyways....this actually came up, for 22 years i had a marriage in which none of my needs were being met, i was married to a man who put everything else before me and his kids, heard all the time that he was changing and was gonna change....and he never really changed, hed did little things for the day or 2 to shut me up and then back to square one, i spent 22 years trying to get that man to see reason, a counseler, put him in front of countless dr phil shows, a few oprahs, i even got him some books on tape...all did nothing...now all of sudden i find out about his secret life and just how many other people came before me, now he has changed all the things he needed to change before i knew....but the devastation of knowing that he couldn't do it before because:
he was in love with someone else,
was too selfish,
resented me,
believed his foo,
didn't love me enough...

and that last one is the BIGGEST....i still don't feel like he loves me enough, if he did, then he would at the very least be truthful, and finally, finally do what I NEED, WHAT I WANT, WHATS BEST FOR ME.....BUT ITS ALWAYS BACK TO WHAT CAN PFM DO FOR HIMSELF....

long way to say i can relate...

lyb:

the why is simple....we love them and want that happily ever after...i think the question should be "should i let if go"....is it time "to let it go".....?????

tryn: i absolutely agree people do change, but they first have to want to change, they need to acknowledge what they have to change and when they fall into old habits they need to step up, own them and make amends for them....

i disagree however on the love is a choice thing....if it were a choice it would be easy to change your mind,,,but the mind has nothing to do with matters of the heart...what you feel and what you think are not always in sinc....if they were most of us would not need s.i.....they only time the 2 truly connect is when its "right" and "true" to oneself...

molly:

i wish i could get past this one way or another...sadly i still have raw emotions....

we all want the ahppily ever after, and for the ws to magically come up with the words and gestures that "work",,,to make it all better....and then none of us wants to feel as though we lost, we already lost so much....we can't let bad win over evil kind of thing...of course if you read this in a story you would be the heroine, and he would come through as the hero....we all want a hero....but we need to be our own hero's...not an easy task by any stretch of the imagination....


msmartha: i do not know your story, but welcome to the "tribe" and you haven't already done so go to the healing library....and remember what he did is not about you, you couldn't know....trusting someone is what you are supposed to do when you truly love them...it goes hand in hand with unconditional love



i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 8:56 AM, August 30th (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

njgal:

My husband is doing anything and everything to be the 'perfect' husband... but, it just doesn't erase the feeling of loss that I have.
Ironically, before the affair, our marriage was in trouble due to his problems with alcohol....but it was different.
I didn't feel so completely destroyed. I was angry with him, disappointed, etc.
And now...he is 100% sober...something I wished for our entire marriage and that is a big reason for my decision to reconcile.....but, I am just heart broken over the affair.

take out the words "sober" and "alcohol"...substitute them for "foo" and "work"...and you have summed up my feelings....

i was at a si g2g yesterday, which was wonderful btw, anyways....this actually came up, for 22 years i had a marriage in which none of my needs were being met, i was married to a man who put everything else before me and his kids, heard all the time that he was changing and was gonna change....and he never really changed, hed did little things for the day or 2 to shut me up and then back to square one, i spent 22 years trying to get that man to see reason, a counseler, put him in front of countless dr phil shows, a few oprahs, i even got him some books on tape...all did nothing...now all of sudden i find out about his secret life and just how many other people came before me, now he has changed all the things he needed to change before i knew....but the devastation of knowing that he couldn't do it before because:
he was in love with someone else,
was too selfish,
resented me,
believed his foo,
didn't love me enough...

and that last one is the BIGGEST....i still don't feel like he loves me enough, if he did, then he would at the very least be truthful, and finally, finally do what I NEED, WHAT I WANT, WHATS BEST FOR ME.....BUT ITS ALWAYS BACK TO WHAT CAN PFM DO FOR HIMSELF....

long way to say i can relate...

lyb:

the why is simple....we love them and want that happily ever after...i think the question should be "should i let if go"....is it time "to let it go".....?????

tryn: i absolutely agree people do change, but they first have to want to change, they need to acknowledge what they have to change and when they fall into old habits they need to step up, own them and make amends for them....

i disagree however on the love is a choice thing....if it were a choice it would be easy to change your mind,,,but the mind has nothing to do with matters of the heart...what you feel and what you think are not always in sinc....if they were most of us would not need s.i.....they only time the 2 truly connect is when its "right" and "true" to oneself...

molly:

i wish i could get past this one way or another...sadly i still have raw emotions....

we all want the ahppily ever after, and for the ws to magically come up with the words and gestures that "work",,,to make it all better....and then none of us wants to feel as though we lost, we already lost so much....we can't let bad win over evil kind of thing...of course if you read this in a story you would be the heroine, and he would come through as the hero....we all want a hero....but we need to be our own hero's...not an easy task by any stretch of the imagination....


msmartha: i do not know your story, but welcome to the "tribe" and you haven't already done so go to the healing library....and remember what he did is not about you, you couldn't know....trusting someone is what you are supposed to do when you truly love them...it goes hand in hand with unconditional love



i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 9:05 AM, August 30th (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

njgal:

My husband is doing anything and everything to be the 'perfect' husband... but, it just doesn't erase the feeling of loss that I have.
Ironically, before the affair, our marriage was in trouble due to his problems with alcohol....but it was different.
I didn't feel so completely destroyed. I was angry with him, disappointed, etc.
And now...he is 100% sober...something I wished for our entire marriage and that is a big reason for my decision to reconcile.....but, I am just heart broken over the affair.

take out the words "sober" and "alcohol"...substitute them for "foo" and "work"...and you have summed up my feelings....

i was at a si g2g yesterday, which was wonderful btw, anyways....this actually came up, for 22 years i had a marriage in which none of my needs were being met, i was married to a man who put everything else before me and his kids, heard all the time that he was changing and was gonna change....and he never really changed, hed did little things for the day or 2 to shut me up and then back to square one, i spent 22 years trying to get that man to see reason, a counseler, put him in front of countless dr phil shows, a few oprahs, i even got him some books on tape...all did nothing...now all of sudden i find out about his secret life and just how many other people came before me, now he has changed all the things he needed to change before i knew....but the devastation of knowing that he couldn't do it before because:
he was in love with someone else,
was too selfish,
resented me,
believed his foo,
didn't love me enough...

and that last one is the BIGGEST....i still don't feel like he loves me enough, if he did, then he would at the very least be truthful, and finally, finally do what I NEED, WHAT I WANT, WHATS BEST FOR ME.....BUT ITS ALWAYS BACK TO WHAT CAN PFM DO FOR HIMSELF....

long way to say i can relate...

lyb:

the why is simple....we love them and want that happily ever after...i think the question should be "should i let if go"....is it time "to let it go".....?????

tryn: i absolutely agree people do change, but they first have to want to change, they need to acknowledge what they have to change and when they fall into old habits they need to step up, own them and make amends for them....

i disagree however on the love is a choice thing....if it were a choice it would be easy to change your mind,,,but the mind has nothing to do with matters of the heart...what you feel and what you think are not always in sinc....if they were most of us would not need s.i.....they only time the 2 truly connect is when its "right" and "true" to oneself...

molly:

i wish i could get past this one way or another...sadly i still have raw emotions....

we all want the ahppily ever after, and for the ws to magically come up with the words and gestures that "work",,,to make it all better....and then none of us wants to feel as though we lost, we already lost so much....we can't let bad win over evil kind of thing...of course if you read this in a story you would be the heroine, and he would come through as the hero....we all want a hero....but we need to be our own hero's...not an easy task by any stretch of the imagination....


msmartha: i do not know your story, but welcome to the "tribe" and you haven't already done so go to the healing library....and remember what he did is not about you, you couldn't know....trusting someone is what you are supposed to do when you truly love them...it goes hand in hand with unconditional love

ejs5:

He used this guy as a cover so he could sleep over at tampon's house(stole that name from another thread, he soaked her up and threw her away).

love the tampon thing...

and i would put my foot sown to this as well, and it wouldn't be my size 6 shoe it would be the moon shoe the one that keeps you down!!!!


I wonder if it’s sincere or just some kind of reaction?

this question that molly posted is another one of those questions i wonder about, is it really because you love me enough, or is the house, the kids the financial end that you want to protect...

and yet is it really is me...when and what are you wating for to finally step up and do what i need for the first time EVER!!! and truly make it all about me all about me and our marriage!!!


on another note, pfm and i were at a s.i. g2t last nite and it was really wonderful being with such awesome people....and being able to speak freely to people who ahve been there on both sides of the spetrum was more validating then i can ever put words too....our hosts put themselves out there both in words and actions, they fed us in our hearts and in our tummies....

would definitely do another....si has truly been a safe place to be, even when meeting in person....

as always
(((((tribe))))


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 9:48 AM, August 30th (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh my Molly... the questions in your mind I’ve had too….

In Retrouvaille, they say all M's go through phases... Romance, Disillusionment, Misery and Awakening.

I think the romance of love, lust... sex... physical... a most powerful part of everyone’s brain chemicals. With that is many Emotional feelings too... Many people just cannot control this feeling or they believe this is the only love. The people that have A's, have a weakness in that they have no idea what true commitment, communication is... for whatever reason. The lie is because they know the trauma to cause... The end of one of their loves... Breaking up is very hard with someone you love. on a scale of 10, it's a 10 in your life. A's continue until caught and awakening happens... the length depends on when they get caught… and some can hide easier then others… I travel every week. The A’s happen at her work… at lunch… it makes it pretty easy to hide. Then you throw in your commitment and ethics… thinking your spouse has the same… with my low boundaries standards… It is a crime of opportunity you might say.

During the Disillusionment part of the M, communication is just not there. Listening is not there. Basically you are living a single married life. Think about it... For me, I was getting up to work, working, working and then come home... "what's for dinner?" I would go play golf... games, coach, volunteer...and take care. It had been years and years I really sat down and discussed any kind of feelings my wife had... she learned to shared those with the OM. True, she made the mistake not bringing those feeling to me, but that was who she was. I personally don't think you can R unless you change too... If you think you were perfect in your M, then you have a problem too.

In the misery part of the M, a third party enters to fill that need..... Yes it hurts us BS to know that our spouses loved two people. A fact we must face. I hear time and time again that it is not possible, not true, but people can and do fall in love with two people. Both men and women can have this same feeling. It is a fact. You lie to yourself if you think different. Your spouse is lying or just has no clue what love is if he says he didn’t love the OP. Of course they did.

If you do try and R, this is where the BS must evaluate him, or herself, to know what was missing in the M... probably already know after a few months. But first, grief will need to stop or get in control. How long that takes is up to the BS. The WS must deal with this too! It took me near 11 months... and even still, a trigger will bring it back, but I can control it now. That is the acceptance part of me now, those feelings will always be somewhere in me... I deal with them inside out of my love for my W, my commitment to R, my choice to love her.

You must also set new boundaries for yourself that will protect your happiness. Then you focus on only yourself and what you can do to R... give it 100%... not anything less. This is called taking care of yourself. You can never be AFRAID to tell your spouse your feelings about going outside any boundary.. LOUD and CLEAR… with every emotion that comes with it too… And there are consequences. After this awakening, if my W cannot change, I have a firm conviction now, that if my W wants to love someone else... go right ahead. But I won't be the other lover. It's a… I'm gonna trot my ass down and file D... That day! No contact any more until I get over her and only through attorneys. I’m starting a different type of life. Accepting again after a third time is just asking for abuse. That person is habitual.

Yes, you just risk and hope that your spouse has awakened... and knows what a M is about and will also give you 100%... in good conscience. I can feel so much peace coming back to my life right now… it takes you to change your mind to feel like me. It is up to all us BS to control our minds… make the choice… but be kind to yourself and know it takes time…


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 10:00 AM, August 30th (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

iwantamiracle
love is a choice thing
... think about the following...

I have always had feelings in my head that I wanted to have sex with so many women... All the time in fact... since I was in jr high I guess... You cannot control those feeling from popping in your head... That is the physical part of love... You can have that for many people.. the chemistry. So I choose not to act. That is an act of love I choose for only my W. I choose to keep my house clean as act of love that my W.. acts of service... or gifts. I choose to bring her a flower. I choose to cook for her... I choose to be kind to her.. I choose to hold her hand... I choose to share my faith with her... I choose be honest as I can... I choose to be open and start to share my deepest feelings.. I choose to accept some thing I disagree with her on... I choose share my money with her... I choose to live in the same house... I choose to make love to her... I choose to be married... I choose every bit of my love...

If you are not being loved like you want... You cannot control what others do... you should choose to love someone else.

[This message edited by trynhard at 10:16 AM, August 30th (Sunday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
MollyBrown
♀ New Member
Member # 25061
Default  Posted: 1:59 PM, August 30th (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Msmartha: Hi, I didn’t know you were new to LTA, I’m new too. Welcome!

Iwantamiracle: I went through a similar thing for 17 years trying to get WS to see his side of the dynamic/relationship and his response was pretty much to put his fingers in his ears and chant, “I can’t hear you, it’s all your fault”. Why do they need to get caught in their lies to finally “see the light”? I wasn’t perfect when I met him; I had flirted and treated my previous husband poorly. WS had had mistresses in his previous marriage per agreement with XW. But when we met, it was supposed to be different. He said his feelings for me changed him. I know my love for him changed everything for me; suddenly I cared about someone else more that myself. Suddenly, “I got it”. My loves for him made me “see the light”. Why wasn’t it the same for him? I assume it’s because he didn’t love me enough. Love changes everything.

The SI G2G sounded really good/supportive. I am so happy that I found this forum, we haven’t told anyone else and it sure is a relief to have someone to talk to (guess you hadn’t noticed by all my posting).

Trynhard: I’m impressed at the recommitment you’ve been able to make with your FWW. What does she think of Retrouvaille?

I too believe people can change but in this situation, I sure want to know every in and out and up and down of why they’ve changed before I jump on that bandwagon a second time.

On a teasing note: I do think there is a difference between wanting to make love to someone and loving them (particularly with men, sorry, that was probably sexist, but hey, I say “Viva la difference!”). Also, there is a difference between loving someone and acting loving towards them. I don’t think loving them is a choice but acting loving towards them is. I hope you don’t mind me saying this but it sounds to me like you love your FWW so much, you couldn’t leave her (not a choice) but you choose to stay and make it work and act lovingly towards her. That is admirable. I was actually thinking about you in regards to my dilemma and decided that you had faced up to the choice “do I really love this person, faults and all, do I really want to live my life without them?” I think I’m avoiding stepping up to the plate on that one. I do want to examine all the facts a little bit longer and make sure this second time around. I need a few more questions answered.

I have really been searching for my part in the A. But an interesting thing is, when I couldn’t get him to look at our issues together (before I knew about the A), I just started working on myself. That threw him off, because the more I became clean and clear the more he couldn’t hide. We now pretty much agree that my part was not leaving him when he wouldn’t do his part which just let him continue his “evil ways”. Not that I didn’t hold him accountable, because I did but he just wouldn’t hear. I would have had to leave him to give him his wake up call.

And, since I’m long winded and you mentioned the phases of marriage (very helpful), I am subjecting you (so sorry) to “my phases of recovery after the affair”. I’ve been working on it to get clarity and here it is:

1. Shock: Reality and magnitude of the situation haven’t sunk in. Still believe in WS and M. Committed to R.
2. Disbelief: At all the lies and deception than has been going on behind my back. Still believe in WS and M. Still committed to R.
3. Confusion: As to why WS doesn’t just come clean and align with me/us. Why is he protecting the “dark side?” Too much TT. Does WS want this marriage? Do I want this marriage? Commitment to R wavering.
4. Deep pain, sorrow and devastation hit full force: At what WS has done, at what has been ruined and lost forever. “What the heck is R?”
5. Disillusioned: WS and M not what I thought they were. Reality and magnitude of the situation starting to sink in. No longer committed to R, need something to convince me to commit, but what?. Plane/plain of lethal flatness.

One year mark here. Note: Intense and scary anger, depression/despair and bargaining (“if you had only…” , “If it had only been…” ) experienced pretty much during all of the above stages. Wrote multiple letters to OW which I didn’t send but enjoyed writing.

6. Processing: Rehashing everything with all the new knowledge I have. Writing and expressing my feelings more coherently. Putting it all together in my head. Questioning myself; “do I really love him?” “was it just an illusion I was in love with?”
7. Boomeranging: Starting to experience some good times with WS and can see how hard he is trying. Some days hopeful and I think, “I can do this”. Other days full of triggering and I think “there is no way I can accept this”. Experiencing hope is scary and pushes me back into protective mode. Good note: I no longer want to contact the OW, “Let her fry in her own fat”, she’s miserable in her own life and I don’t want to open any doors for her or help her get out of it in any way. Let her live a life of quiet desperation. Her H is onto her crap so I don’t need to worry about responsibility to let him know.
8. Resignation: I’m tired of this taking up so much room. What happened, happened, neither of us can change it. At least it wasn’t true love or… WS is trying hard and I can now appreciate that. My feelings for WS are not what they were and I miss that (and HB - LOL) but I wouldn’t want the old him back or to be back in our old marriage. Need to really think about all my options and what I really want to do with my life now.

(I’m in Resignation, so the following stages I’m only guessing at)

9. Re-building: New life together with shared goals, new marriage, new experiences, new honest sex life, new feelings. True commitment to R (and if not, then commitment to my life).
10. Reconciled! (If not with WS, then with myself)


The Unsinkable Molly Brown:
"Sure I may be tuckered, and I may give out, but I won't give IN!"
"I mean more to me than I mean to anybody else."

Posts: 47 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: Europe
trynhard
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Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 8:43 AM, August 31st (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey MollyBrown...
I hope you don’t mind me saying
Say away! lol... not much anyone can say to me that comes close to comparison to what I have been through. This week in our local paper is a story about a soldier... I can draw comparisons to myself over infidelity.

http://www.indystar.com/article/99999999/NEWS/90827061/-1/NEWS16/Timeline++A+War+Within

http://www.indystar.com/article/99999999/NEWS/90828048/-1/NEWS16/Timeline++A+War+Within

But there is hope for a person going through this, and all can be a peace... I am coming to peace.

I am pointing out many things I've learn in Retrouvaille, a program that has saved many M's since 1977. BTW.. I'm not trying to argue with anyone here... It is my wish all to be a peace and this program has been great comfort to me.

Molly.. I’m glad you asked this…

What does she (my W) think of Retrouvaille?
First, without this program, I could have only assumed what she really thought. But today, I really know! Here goes… She has feeling of discomfort and doubt. She is unsure if this will lead to resolution, afraid to share her real feelings because her real feeling may hurt me… and says she feels like I have become a much more sensitive and compassionate person. At our post session yesterday, she complained they are too long. But this is not the case for me. She got mad because I told her my feelings that I still have about not trusting her while she is at work talking to OM. It is a valid feeling I have. She wanted to leave right then and there.. lol. I said no. That has been our problem our whole M. Bury it, hide it, afraid of anger, her having the inability to tell me and me not listening…. the very things she wants of me, to know my deep feeling, she cannot take herself! I hung tough… Told her we need to work on ways to so my trust will come back… We later kissed!

I sure want to know every in and out and up and down of why they’ve changed
this was not unlike me too. She did tell me why… Of course my W knew it was wrong to have an A. During that time, she truly did go delusional. She really thought some pretty crazy things…It was a way to justify the infidelity is a messed up mind of guilt... that mistake she made was a solution to her unhappiness. My wife always says it was my lack of attention that made her unhappy. It’s just a simple statement… lack of attention. I have no way of know if it is more that that. I have accepted that was it. Now her change… she saw my trauma, she now knows my feelings, my feeling like a soldier in trauma after friends being killed and killing a man shooting him in half. My telling her to imagine our child being killed by a killer, me wanting to kill the man who committed who killed our child… I had feelings close to all those that could go through a death… I can imagine as the same. Some people like me have it in themselves to commit crimes of passion too… suicide and the likes… I had that in my soul, but was saved by God and a friend. There is a difference in infidelity though… the offender is someone you have loved. That makes things much more complicated. I think once the A starts, it gets somewhat trivialized (delusional) by the offender… Once the offender knows reality and real feelings of hurt caused… That person will change! If not, they are a frick’n idiots, crazed, evil habitual person incapable of ever having a healthy relationship. As UK has said here, you can move on to the next person, but they will have thing you must overlook and you will need to make a choice to love beyond the nasty stuff they do too… There is a risk that that person wears a mast too.

It does take something too… I do feel love from my wife... Did I feel love when she didn’t want to hug me yesterday? NO. I went outside to “cool off” and then made a decision to love her by not “acting” on my anger feelings… I let that go. What else will I let go of… much right now… It is my choice to love… You can make a decision to love. Call it “acting” if you wish… My actions are what they are… I’ve empowered myself again by controlling my brain to think this way… I could have chosen to leave my wife and D. That is totally a personal choice. You make that choice to D because you think you will be happier by yourself or risk happiness with someone else. You can also make the choice to continue to be unhappy with trying to R… but being a negative self-talker. What if my spouse leaves me? If I had only married so and so… I should be able to here my spouse’s criticism with feeling hurt…I am too fat and not a cute… I don’t have the patience…. Those kinds of choices and talk are about too.

If you want to be happy you must change the way you think. Tomorrow will take care if itself. It has taken me months and months to get to this point of thinking. It has come after so much grieving. It is very hard and difficult to “let go”. It has taken hours and hours of me saying.. I make that choice…

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next. Amen.

There will be a time in all this where you will accept it… Anyone and everyone I know that have been through this tells me, with time, they come to a point of acceptance. There is a peace when that comes. My best friend who has cheated on his 1st wife… now thinks as himself very evil during that period… his A ended his 1st M, and he M’d his AP. That ended in her cheating on him… he says that was God’s way… “what goes around, comes around”.. but he has no bitterness toward his 2nd X wife… and his 1st wife has something very special for him right now… they are very good friends. His 1st X wife is at peace too.. Peace will come for all of us here… and IMO it is up to you, yourself, say “I will make that peace happen.”
I know my wife is not happy right now. I cannot control her feelings. I can only control mine… I make a choice to be happy. I'm just “acting” or choosing to be very kind... and when I find out something she wants..I do it. Fact is, when I do something that makes her happy, I feel happier. If she wants me to do something that doesn’t make me happy, I tell her my feelings… without accusing, without interjecting what I “think” she thinks or feels…

I post this because it is very hard to see any kind of happiness when in a grief period… Hold your heads high and make the choice today is the first day of the rest of your life! Go sign up for Retrouvaille… It is not anything that you think… It is a new way to think about life. It is free for those that cannot pay. It will bring you some peace if you make a decision to try it.

Oh well… off to my day.


[This message edited by trynhard at 8:50 AM, August 31st (Monday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
Ms.Martha
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Member # 23951
Default  Posted: 12:15 PM, August 31st (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@needamiracle and @mollybrown Thanks for the welcome. I've been reading around since April, joined in May and started posting. I usually feel kind of out of place because my story is completly my fault. At least this last half of the years. I knew who he was his reputation and what I could see with my own eyes. I convinced myself that I couldn't assume and should give him a chance.

In the end I just made it very easy for him to do it. I think there are two or three rotating LTA's and lots of in between ONS and FWB........

He swears he is going to change. Not to give up on him. But, in my heart of hearts I know...... He will not change....

Anyway, I will sit down and try to explain the story from the beginning maybe it will help.

I can only do like little stories that I remember here and there. It's like I'm making all these connections.....

I kind of belong in the "In the dark" section too cause I have only hit the tip, I think.

Anyway, thanks again for the welcome.

I have to work on my boundary list as I will be seeing him tomorrow.


Posts: 172 | Registered: May 2009
MollyBrown
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Member # 25061
Default  Posted: 1:18 PM, August 31st (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Trynhard: Thank you, hearing your perspective is very helpful.

Retrouvaille sounds like it gives a very good structure to looking at this issue.

I think you’re right about changing ones way of thinking. I’ve been looking at it as changing my perspective, sort of like the shift you get when looking at the vase/faces. I would like to find a way to see this from a different angle. I am acting loving towards my FWH and talking constructively but I just can’t seem to give it that last little bit that will make the difference.

“I think once the A starts, it gets somewhat trivialized (delusional) by the offender… Once the offender knows reality and real feelings of hurt caused… That person will change!”

Of course, I believe this cognitively. I don’t know why I’m having such a hard time accepting this emotionally. I know that before in his life, my FWH only valued things/people that contributed to his fantasy image. After discovery and months of talking, when the choice he’d been making, fantasy over reality, became clear and he saw that he had been using fantasy to avoid facing himself, he had his Aha moment. I do think at that moment, his values shifted. I think he values me and our marriage now in a very different way then he ever did before. I guess I just don’t understand how he could have trivialized the A. He knew what he was doing, he knew it was against everything we meant to each other but he still chose it repeatedly for 3.5 years over us. I can’t seem to get past that. How can one trivialize something they put so much time and energy into for 3.5 years?

“As UK has said here, you can move on to the next person, but they will have things you must overlook and you will need to make a choice to love beyond the nasty stuff they do too… There is a risk that that person wears a mask too.”

I have thought about this a lot too and know it to be true. My FWH and I share so much and are very compatible, I don’t think it would be easy to replace that. That is why I am trying. If I do end up choosing to leave in the end, it will be to pursuit my own life for once, not to find someone new. In the meantime, I guess the only thing to do is keep struggling on, maybe one day the last pieces of the puzzle will fall into place.

Ms.martha: do write your story down, it sure helped me just to get it out on paper and not rambling around in my head.

I just wanted to add: Between knowing that people can and do change and that with a new person, you just get new problems, there is a certain element. With someone who hasn’t betrayed you, you have a faith in them and the relationship that is magical and will always be missing after the betrayal. No matter how much you understand the betrayers actions, no matter how sorry they are or how changed they are, that element will always be missing. I often think that my FWH would be better off if he could start a new relationship with someone else. He would now be a much better husband/partner and they could share that element of faith with each other. He would have a chance to “do it right” this time and could share something really special with that person.

[This message edited by MollyBrown at 1:30 PM, August 31st (Monday)]


The Unsinkable Molly Brown:
"Sure I may be tuckered, and I may give out, but I won't give IN!"
"I mean more to me than I mean to anybody else."

Posts: 47 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: Europe
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 4:26 PM, August 31st (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ya know MollyBrown
He would have a chance to “do it right” this time and could share something really special with that person.
I could not agree with you more... But then again... who knows??? He gets married and his new wife cheats. I think you can also say a M is stronger after having gone through this darkness.

I guess I just don’t understand how he could have trivialized the A... accepting this emotionally
You may never understand it unless you have an A yourself.

I physically hurt my wife back in May '09... A bruise over the size of a golf ball. I am a spouse abuser. I am luck I did not go to jail that night. That is who I am. I never thought that was in me. But it is. It was the lowest point in my life. I can now understand that aspect of how I can hurt another human being... Some men think that is the worst thing ever... at the time when I was squeezing her arm, I was out of my mind. I totally lost it... I compare it to people in an A... they are out of there minds... They must justify it by making it seem smaller then it is... flipping things in there minds. For example, You are having a A too... you are a bad spouse, it is your fault I did this.. blah blah blah... it becomes a form of mental illness. That lie is so bad and socially unacceptable, you know it is so wrong.... your mind does things.. chemicals change it. My wife even got to the point she gave up, so why not continue... she knew it was going to end and and lost hope thinking It would be all over... It's mental.


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
leapyearbaby
♀ Member
Member # 24902
Default  Posted: 9:26 PM, August 31st (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Molly Brown:
My problem is, that even if she didn’t mean that much to him, he shared a “secret us” with her for 3.5 years and that is a very long time. Despite what she did or did not mean to him, he gave her a very special role in his life which he fed and watered and tended carefully for a very long time. I was the weed to be kept out of that garden. I know that sounds like an ego issue but I hate that I had ABSOLUTELY NO idea. We made fun of how much time away his job required and which girlfriend he would be visiting with this time, BUT IT WAS JUST A JOKE, we could joke like that because it was such an impossibility (NOT!). I feel like such an idiot now. He counted on and used my total belief, trust and devotion to get away with it for all that time. He knew I never questioned him and wouldn’t dream of looking in his computer or phone. He was above reproach and suspicion. He never even bothered to hide their e-mails to each other. They were there all along as were their calls in his phone. I wish I could say with hindsight that I knew something was going on, maybe that would make it easier.

Oh boy....I am there with you. 12 years for me, with more than one....and I had NO CLUE. I never looked, never even thought to. If I had had to make a list of things he would do; having an A would not even BE on the list. Total shock and disbelief.
And living a secret life...multiple secret lives? I wouldn't be capable of it myself, much less suspect him of it. After almost 15 months, he has finally realized just "hunkering down: and hoping I get over it wasn't working. He has finally started doing some work on himself. But we'll see...I had already moved out because after 2 months he still said, well, he was sorry for my pain, but he had no remorse over his actions...so I left.
I just can't figure why I am still here....

Trynhard:

We didn't live that kind of life...worked together in rescue work, practically joined at the hip before and during his 3 different affairs. Switched shifts last few years I worked, so he had more time to himself. Physically, emotionally and intellectually very close. We had friends of course, and kids, but everything was done together and we like it that way (at least I thought we did.)


me BS the Big 6-0!!
him WS 56
married 28 years
together 31
DD 6/10/08
ow #1,2 lta on and off since 1995
ow 3 ons summer 2005
2 D, mine from prior marriage, but he raised them
R'ing...probably not....but then again, maybe....


Posts: 1375 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: Colorado
leapyearbaby
♀ Member
Member # 24902
Default  Posted: 9:39 PM, August 31st (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ejs5:
Getting Past the Affair is more of a workbook type book. Chapters on different subjects with reading recommended to be shared and exercises to be done jointly at the end of each chapter. I put it aside briefly as my H and I have decided to work together on it during October during a trip away on our 26th anninversary. Not the way I would choose to spend it under other curcumstances...

Not to sound ADD, but I found another one (actually my wh found it and gave it to me, a surprise in itself) that has me so entranced, I had a hard time putting it down last night.
Called "Too Good to Go, Too Bad to Stay", rather than following a pro-con decision making process, it ask a series of diagnostic questions. Being in the medical field, I like this approach. I started out with several yesses, but now have found a few I don't knows or maybes.
Anyway, I think for people who are still having a problem to stay or go, this book be just what you need. It does not deal directly with infidelity...but with any problem in any given marriage. It may lead me into saying no, I don't want to stay, but then, at least, I will KNOW....


me BS the Big 6-0!!
him WS 56
married 28 years
together 31
DD 6/10/08
ow #1,2 lta on and off since 1995
ow 3 ons summer 2005
2 D, mine from prior marriage, but he raised them
R'ing...probably not....but then again, maybe....


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