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User Topic: Long Term Affair Thread XV
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 3:37 PM, August 20th (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((LostH)))
w_a_l put a post on a thread about how we, as the BS, live with this betrayal as our “constant companion”.
And it always boggles me, because I know that the chaos *is* the BS's universe. That thing the WS has put away and tried to forget about is the BS's daily companion. It's the constant anger that can sweep us away in an instant if we don't constantly keep a guard on our thoughts and our tongues.

(It’s the last post on the thread: "I lost my cool" in Gen
http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=311177&AP=61&HL=17062)

Yesterday I wasnt ashamed for my feelings - i was ashamed for sharing them with him of all people if you KWIM.
We’ve all felt like that. You knew you were taking a risk by doing this. But it’s only by exposing that most intimate and tender part of yourself that you can let your H know how you feel. You have made a decision to share these things with him and that it why you felt that way. I have done the opposite. H had the most intimate part of me, he knew me very, very well. I never hid anything from him. I felt I could tell him anything and he would be happy for me to share with him. He wanted that intimacy – we both did. Now I keep that softest and most vulnerable part away from him. He nearly killed me with his affair. And now I have a pretty good idea that there were two other forerunners there is no way he is going to extract my deepest feelings and thoughts again.

I made a decision to change the way I view our marriage. I’m not married to him. I am his partner. Somehow, this has made me removed from the affair(s) b/c I’m removed from him. I suppose I’m saying that I don’t love him as much, so he won’t hurt me again. I know he won’t. when he’s away, I actually don’t care. I’m marginally interested, but nothing like I used to be. I know I will cope in life without him and I think that knowledge has made me emotionally distant. I’m simply no longer a “wife”.

I don’t need to know about his interactions with other women. I’m not interested. If I get niggling suspicions, then I’ll check to verify, but heck, I didn’t have a clue before and now he has a company blackberry and company laptop, there is NOTHING to stop him other than himself. His affair with MOW was all set up using his work email address, he used his private phone which he charged to the company and he had NO ITEMISED LISTING, just a bill re # of calls, etc, so…. (So much for the “it wasn’t planned crap, eh”?) If his boundaries are so flexible, and I find out, then fuck him. I’m off. And I have told him a whiff will be enough – I won’t need “evidence”, I will just kick him out.

yesterday I asked my H if he had been inappropriate with women other then the ones I know of
Well. Does it matter now? Would it make any difference? And what response were you wanting? Maybe if you had known the answers before you asked the question, you could have had a response lined up to take the heat out of it and got an answer more along the lines you were looking for. I dunno. I think your H’s messed up anyhow. His verbally violent and abusive reply was totally unnecessary and he did it to end the convo.

And…… fuck. Why do I do this? DS4 is joining FB. So, I log on and.……. Why do I feel the need to peek at MOW’s FB pic and I see that she’s changed it? Do I need to make sure she’s STILL nothing special? So fucking ordinary? So ugly on the inside? Aarrgghhh!! Stupid me!! >>>sigh<<< It’s ok. I’ve whacked myself with a 2x4 to knock some sense into me.


ETA: i just changed my profile pic to one of both of us.... ok, ready for 2x4's....

[This message edited by UKgirl at 3:53 PM, August 20th (Thursday)]


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3328 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
ejs5
♀ Member
Member # 24607
Default  Posted: 1:20 AM, August 21st (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MC was so draining today, we talked about finances, our blow up last week(about the other woman continuing to call him) and just issues that we had...it is so hard to talk to him without another party present when it comes to the affair. MC is guiding us through how to argue without bringing up old sh*t and to communicate together and work on all the issues we have, honesty and communication at the top of the list.

He even asked a question at the end about my continued questions, the mc basically said to answer honestly when asked, also I am supposed to come up with a list of things I want to know and bring it to the next session. I of course could think of no questions when she asked what types I want to know...
We talked about the love issue and him not saying it and basically he shrugged and said we are together because it is comfortable, he enjoys being with me sometimes, we have children together...but honestly I sat there wondering if that is enough am I willing to wait for him to have feelings for me again? He continues to say he didn't ever say to ow that he loved her(but she said it to him on occasion when she was drunk). I'm in a very subdued but close to the edge emotional state right now.

Now I guess the test will be if she will stop contacting him...I hope to god she does because I don't think I can stand anymore. I just want her gone. If she does will he tell me?


DD June 2nd 2009
Me BW 38
Him WS 40
No reconciliation was all false 2.5 LTA now a couple of months affair...

Posts: 256 | Registered: Jun 2009 | From: Done
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 4:08 AM, August 21st (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ejs5, has he not sent a NC letter to her? If not, why not? And as to the love issue, maybe at your next session, you should ask him what love means to him. Ask him who he has loved in the past, who he loves now and how he feels towards people who express their love for him. Does he feel he is capable of love? How would he feel if you were to separate? Upset? Devastated? Accepting? Relieved? Analysing this might take you to the crux of the problem. I think that could lead on to some long buried and forgotten foo issues…..

But it sounds like a good session and some progress for you both. Stay with it. Slowly, slowly, catchee monkey.


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3328 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 5:46 AM, August 21st (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey UK… I have done the exact same thing.
Why do I do this? Why do I feel the need to peek at MOW’s FB pic…
For me…
I think it’s part of being a human… psychic apparatus… It is likely several feelings… One for sure is ego, another maybe curiosity. It’s because you are sizing up the competition. It’s like when you’re driving down the road and you see a serious car accident, you just got to look at the gory stuff, you might even see someone dead, curiosity. One thing I know is this, it is destructive and will not make you happy. It’s going to take much will power to stop it… It is a conscious choice… Kinda like getting off drugs.

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 6:56 AM, August 21st (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

kalamity... I hope your communications effort pays off...

ejs5.. my heart goes out for you… stay strong!

Mgmd.. you made one hard decision and hats off for taking control of you life toward happiness!

Lost Heart2.. Life is full of risk and

Hearbroken.. way to go.. 12 step program & exercising,

REALLY SAD… You stay strong

And all others my prayers are with you…

We all are taking a risk staying with our M... Some of us bigger risk then others. I have spent hours and hours thinking about risk, meditating about risking, up and down… This is very hard to do… First, I know some people can change. I know people who have been arrested for DUI. They just don’t drink and drive today. Once you get caught it can be an Awakening. But I also know other people continued destructive behavior and get a 2nd, 3rd or 4th DUI. So I now RISK that my W will not lie to me again. Tomorrow she could make a choice to cheat on me again or even leave me. I adopted a mindset that if that happens… it happens. I will deal with that day, if it comes.

But for today… I made a choice to stay so I am going to work my ass off to make this work. I will treat my W with the up most respect, love and kindness. I will work on my communication in a way that does not manipulate but shares my feelings. I will share with her my wants and desires and let her know what is most important to me… my dreams… I will accept her as she is and if I get angry at something she says, or does, I will not let it go… I will let her know in a respectful way, a calm way, why I’m angry and what I feel. I’m not going to revisit any of the ugly past.. only the beautiful past.

Everyday I work on myself..
- When I think of OM… think about how my W places her head on my shoulders
- When I think of the years of lies… think, that was the past and think about something now.
- When my mind starts to wonder in days gone by… I think about my pictures… or write a poem (I thank the lord too… for warning me with those birds)
- I’m going to do more stuff that makes me happy.
- I made my choice to be happy again and I’m fighting for it!

Part of Retrouvaille is helping others… so I will always make a few suggestions here in great gratitude for all the post and those that have helped me get through living this death… but I will also make a effort to try not to think about the A everyday… The A is part of me now and always will be… My emotions will always come with that… but I know now I can control them and will control them… it will be Ok if I shed a tear.. but I will pick myself up move on…

So that means not visiting this site everyday. I’m going to start with every other day and slowly try to start living again.

This is my future.. I took this pic yesterday only seeing the rainbow when I took the picture... then, when I got home and looked at the picture, look what showed up! By luck? I don't think so...

[This message edited by trynhard at 1:08 PM, February 14th (Tuesday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
feelingdead
♀ Member
Member # 23591
Default  Posted: 6:49 PM, August 21st (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I've posted a couple of times to this thread and look at
it a little but haven't ever gone back and read it all (I think I should sometime). But I have a question maybe someone can help me answer.

Is the length of healing/R relative to length of A? And is it me or are LTA's harder to get over than shorter A's?

H had one short term PA and one LTA EA (I think it was only EA because they were/are in separate towns - otherwise would have been PA). The LTA lasted 20 years that I know of. Although, I really feel it was more like 24 years because it was H's h.s. gf and he invited her best friend to our wedding knowing she (OW) would come also - which she did. So I guess there has been contact on and off our whole time together.

R seems to have been going along fine but have definitely hit anger stage and just wondering if this will hit me for longer because I have to completely rethink our entire married lives. Only been 4 months but sometimes pain just as bad as D-day.

Thanks for advice. Really wishing I could find a time machine and could go back 25 years.


Married 23 years
Three teenagers
Dday1 4/11/09 (two for one, one PA, one EA, two OW, then found out about three more plus MULTIPLE boundary issues)
Dday2 3/27/10 (two more!)
Dday 3 3/21/10 (one more PA)

Posts: 204 | Registered: Apr 2009
REALLY SAD
♀ Member
Member # 23030
Default  Posted: 8:16 PM, August 21st (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

UKg....OW FB is my drug of choice too except I was able to figure out the password of one of WH's friends who has OW as a friend so I go in through his account and have full access to her page, her wall, her photos, her friends and I can't help myself. I'm getting better, used to check it hourly and I'm down to once or twice a day. Tryn is right, it's a conscience choice but damn it's hard to just exercise the self control and do the right thing and just stop (hmmmmm sounds familiar???) I think the 2x4's that come from your own hand sometimes hit the hardest and sting the most so no 2x4's from me.

(((LostHeart2))) I agree with UKg your H reply to you made me very angry and I got that pit at the bottom of my stomach. I actually said out loud when I read it "fuck you"...just awful!

(((ej5)))

(((feelingdead))) that is such a long time, I don't even know what to say...I don't have much to offer as I haven't been here very long myself and am still a long way from healed or R just wanted to send some hugs your way.

Tryn...great photo, I don't think it's luck either...they seek you out!

Had IC session today, my first one since the IM exchange last week with WH. Therapist is confident by the exchange that WH is having second thoughts about his choice to S. Asked me how I felt about that possibility and how I might handle that type of conversation with WH if in fact it happened? I told her I wasn't sure. I told her my initial reaction was the same as hers but for several reasons have put that out of my mind. Guessing part of me is afraid that it wont' be the case don't want to set myself up looking for something from WH that might not happen and I really am quite content right now for the time being to do nothing. You know what they say "when in doubt, do nothing"! She started to tell me all of the things that she thought would have to be in place for me to even consider R with WH if he did come to me with that (ie, no contact, transparency...you know all the standard stuff) then she asked me if I thought I would ever be able to trust him again considering that it was a LTA? Again, I didn't know. All I do know is that I absolutely couldn't go back to living the way I had been for the last year...wondering, worrying, second guessing, sleuthing, always on my toes, not sleeping, afraid to go out with my friends and leave him alone...I always felt the need to micromanage his time, I felt if I knew what he was doing and was around then he couldn't call OW or text etc...plain and simple it was exhausting, I have never been as tired in my life and I like the feeling of being able to breathe again and having some peace of mind. Not at all what I wanted but it's manageable now.
Anyways, back to IC. I know I'm paying her a hefty fee but she said to this to me:

"You are the whole package, you are intelligent, pretty, funny, good head on your shoulders, financially independent, you don't have any kids. I have no doubt that you could and would meet someone who would love you and care for you and that you could trust and feel secure with. Someone who would be absolutely grateful to have found you and for you to have come into their life. Would you really want to risk your heart and your life on WH again and possibly pass up something or someone like that"?

She never comes right out and tells me what to do and as a matter of fact does say "I can't tell you what to do" but I get the distinct impression that she'd like to and I think chances are she has a raft of 2 x 4's stashed behind her couch that she's just itchin' to beat me with!

She encourages me to think and consider everything but she is always encouraging me to move on, forge ahead and to not look back. That I can do better and I would never be able to forgive and things would never be the same. I really like her and feel very comfortable and a strong connection...she is also a FBS so maybe that's why she has such strong feelings about my situation?

Just wondering for anyone else who is in IC what they get from their therapist and if this is normal?

That's all for now....good weekend everyone and hugs to all!
RS


Truth whether good, bad or ugly can be dealt with. Hope on the other hand can be devastating!

Me - BS (37)
Him - WS (36)
Together - October 1991
Married - September 2005
DDay#1 - 12/29/08
DDay #2 - 02/21/09
His heart just isn't in it -


Posts: 162 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Canada
ejs5
♀ Member
Member # 24607
Default  Posted: 9:48 PM, August 21st (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

UKGirl he didn't have a no contact letter, he did a phone call and said it was over and he would not be contacting her again. 2 days later she sent a text saying she never promised no contact...evidently she must drink a lot because those are the times when she has said I love you, and he thinks that is when she continues to contact him. He said he wouldn't contact her again and has maintained it, he just didn't tell me the two times she called and he didn't answer(phone records prove this) of course he knows this will not work next time...to me that is a deal breaker, if she leaves a message he will let me listen to it. I did send another email from me saying that if she continued to contact me I would be the one she would have to deal with as he will not have any form of communication with her at all. I'm a little nervous that she will show up at his work he works on a train thankfully he has no real schedule as of yet and is on call all the time...so she isn't likey to be getting that one last goodbye, would have been easier if they still worked together:) she hasn't updated her myspace or reponded to my email I sent last week so hopefully(I'm praying) that is the last contact!

Good news my husband decided to be nice and help around the house a bit today so that was lovely and he has been very nice.

Also those are great questions to ask about love...I know he loves our daughters and he says I love you to his mom and if a mutual married friend of ours says it he says it back but once when I asked about this he said what am I not ever supposed to reply back to_____if they say it...I didn't have a response.

If you have any other suggestions for questions to ask throw them at me...ones that each of you needed answered about the affair with the other person...need to come armed to our next session on Sept 3rd.


DD June 2nd 2009
Me BW 38
Him WS 40
No reconciliation was all false 2.5 LTA now a couple of months affair...

Posts: 256 | Registered: Jun 2009 | From: Done
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 11:18 PM, August 21st (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hey tribe, i am back from vacation, we had a few rough moments from time to time, but all in all my kids had a great time....its did them all really good to have some "good" family time....that is after all why i am still "here".....

i saw that this forum has been a bit busy....too much pain.....i am so sorry for everyones pain...it really sucks...

ejs5:...when your husband made that phone call were you with him?, and what exactly did he say to her?, he may have to send a no contact letter anyway...the ow doesn't have to agree to anything, its your husband who has to follow thru...

he needs to continue to tell you each and every time she intitiates contact, he is to continue to ignore her each and everytime, he laso needs to show you any writings of any kind from her....and then YOU BOTH are to ignore her each and everytime she initiates contact...and this no contact letter must come from him or it means nothing....

ukgirl: from what you post you have no intention of being his wife in every way. if i may ask, why are you staying in the marriage? what is in it for you?

kalamity:

Why are you opposed to having both your ICs together? I think it's a great idea

in answer to your question, i dont believe my wh's motives for doing this are good ones first off. second i also don't think his c would be open to this either, i already know that my c thinks its not a good idea, pfm's counseler started out as OUR mc, i then backed out of mc because it wasn't going to work until he did a major amount of work on himslef, he had nothing to give the marriage until he healed himself, so he needed to fix him before he could EVER fix the marriage....he still continued to lie and still does, so for me there is no r period because of his lying, i will no longer be married to a liar....so hence the marriage is in name only for family, my 3 teenagers....

anyway i digressed....having a meeting between the 2 ic's and us would serve no purpose, and whatever he would need to tell me in a counseling session could be said with just his counseler since that counseler started out as a "our" counseler....

i most importantly i question his motives for wanting this, because this was pfm's request not his counseler.

in a ddition i had told his "C" that if i was ever needed for a session, say the word and i was there...he has not...

enjoy your getaway kalamity...

lh2:

Is it that simple? a person who has lied and deceived all their adult life just decides to stop... and it stops? And as he will not be unfaithful anymore

NO, it is NOT that simple. Trust your gut and continue to speak the truth. After my first dday, H did IC and MC with me and went for years of being faithful until dday2. When he essentially quit going to IC the first time I did not think he had worked out all his issues, but he *insisted* that he had, that he figured out the "whys" and he just "knew" that he would never do this to me again. He was sadly mistaken, and it cost us dearly. IMHO if your H does not truly look inside himself to figure out the whys then you are at continued risk.

hb is totally on the money....

lh2, the way your wh snapped at you is totally unacceptable, you do not deserve that EVER...and he needs to know that, and its a 2 way street, if he feels that you are not moving on fast enough, he then could move on himself.....at the very least he should be grateful that you are still there trying, and he has no right to tell you when or where its enough...it won't ever be wnough until he does what it takes, as dr phil loves to say he drove you realtionship into the ditch, its him to get it out and he is to do until.....it couldbe a day, a month, a year or years or it could be never, but if your marriage is what he truly wants then he needs to do what it takes "UNTIL"

one more thing i need to address...you never need tobe ashamed, not even from sharing your feelings with him, sharing your feeling with him is a gift that you give him, he is the one who should be ashamed for taking hat gift and spitting it out....

i know the feeled of regretting sharing those feelings, i feel those pangs of regret almost eveytime with pfm, but then i think at least i said what i had to say, i will never wonder if saying them would have made any kind of a difference because it only ends up reaffirming my decision not to reconcile

i hope you find some peace..

lostsoul:

Only I haven't been brave enough to confront FWH with my thoughts that run along the same line as yours! I'm not willing to rock the boat and spoil the good times with our dd and gs but often find myself (like now) awake and pondering my existence. Seems so superficial... I wear a mask that makes me so uncomfortable but I don't have the strength to face my fears head on.

being brave is so much more then confrontation, sometimes its not doing the confronting, sticking it out and keeping peace is i think even harder to do and is a much braver thing....bravado is not always about fighting, sometimes it about not fighting when you really want to but knowing that it wouldn't solve anything and might make the situation even worse....its not always easy to shut up, i know its not for me....

mgmd: welcome to the tribe, i read some of yur profile and some of a previous post, so if i got it right, you did separate, was with that younger dude, but now have decided to try and reconcile?...

i think you need to be in ic, and you need to make sure that you are reconciling for the right reasons and that there aren't some underlying issues from your past that you are trying to heal....because if its the latter you will probably never heal them with this man, that doesn't mean to say that you should or shouldn't reconcile with him just that whatever issues you have or fears you have, you need to address those by yourself, he can only help you heal from his indiscetions but only if you heal yourself first...i could be totally off base, i only know a little about you, but it might be food for thought....

jessy: how did the mc go? i remember how long it took...

brightbeauty: r u and db in mc, and are you in ic....and have you ever done retrovaille, tryn here can tell you all about it....

i really bellieve that if you and db put everything into each other and really do the work i think you can make it, persepctive helps too, how you look at a situation can either make the situatin look really bad or really good....i don't believe that you really get over it per say as much as you let it go and move forward in your life....sometimes letting go of the pain means we will put our gards down and that will open us up all over again and make us vulnerable....letting go, 2 simple words that are far from simple....

dhac: welcome back, and how are you?

fairyfried: 2 things...

1st: sex is so much more then just sex....when its between 2 people who love each other it is one of the most fulfilling ways to experience that love, when i though i was "it" for pfm and we had sex, sometimes it would be so intense and i would feel it in my soul, then there would be other times and it was playful...sex can be so much more then sex its postively a wonderful state of mind...when of course its between 2 people who should be having sex...

2nd: affairs, especially long term ones are very rarely about the sex....only your wh and his counseler probably know the true answer to that one...and if the 2 of you get to a good place, maybe you might believe him, or maybe he will own it that is was more....

either way...glad to hear that you are happier....happy is always good...

tryn: you sound very good, and its really nice to read your positive posts....and i loved the rainbow and of course those birds....

as always
(((((tribe))))



i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 12:14 PM, August 22nd (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ukgirl: from what you post you have no intention of being his wife in every way. if i may ask, why are you staying in the marriage? what is in it for you?
I got taken for granted by being the doormat. I saw it at the time as being supportive. I did everything to do with the house down to changing a light bulb, I saw to the boys, events, holidays, birthdays (incl his parents), Christmas (the whole caboodle) finance, his sideline business, paid all bills (incl his credit card bills showing “business” hotel stay aways), decorating, gardening, cooking, cleaning, filing, tax returns, fixing the car, I bought his clothes (he couldn’t be bothered), cut his hair. I got involved with his court case, taking papers to court and getting receipts, writing letters for him, gathering evidence for his case. I even monitored his health and stress levels when most of it was due to his affair. His contribution? Earn a living, play golf and fuck MOW. Oh, and walk the dogs early am for 20mins so he could talk/text MOW. Never took them out early mornings again after dday. No wonder he took to the cake eating lifestyle – he had it made.

Why do I stay? I like his company. I like my standard of living. I do not want to break up this home. He says he loves me. I am simply taking a stand by saying there are things I am no longer prepared to do. The break we have been on is THE FIRST ONE he has initiated and thought about and organised. Before, I would suggest, ask him for dates, go back to choices and come up with a short list which I would present to him. He would um and err, choose and I would do the rest. Including the packing. Yet he would turn cartwheels for MOW organising their trysts.

I will never be so close to the trees that I cannot see the wood ever again. He lied to me for over two years. And I can’t be bothered with putting the truth to him anymore, otherwise he would still be lying to me. He can live with that rewritten past if he wants and if it makes him feel better. He does not want to see himself as the bad guy – ever. He says he is essentially a good person who made a "mistake". Fine. He can believe that. I don’t. I know that if and when the opportunity arose, he would relight the flame with her. He was always going to do it and I know there is nothing I could have done. It was inevitable. And – of course – he asked her to marry him. That one hurt. That one really hurt. She wanted my life and he was offering it to her. Wife? No thanks.

Okay. Rant over. Sorry miracle – once I started I couldn’t stop, do not take my rage personally!!!!


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3328 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 1:53 PM, August 22nd (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ukgirl: rant away....anytime...

question...since i am still realatively new there ae a few things from your story i am unclear about...you refer to him asking her to marry him, and not you....and this ocnfuses me since you are married....

and i agree these affairs, or at least all long term affairs are not just mistakes....they are much more then that....trying to simplify it doesn't give it any less weight....in fact when the ws tries to simplify it, it does the opposite because it shows the bs that they still do not own their shit....the ws is not taking full responsiblity for the gravity of their actions...that would be like saying premidated murder in the first degree is just a mistake....

(((((tribe))))


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
fairyfriend
♀ Member
Member # 11208
Default  Posted: 3:15 PM, August 22nd (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

"1st: sex is so much more then just sex....when its between 2 people who love each other it is one of the most fulfilling ways to experience that love, when i though i was "it" for pfm and we had sex, sometimes it would be so intense and i would feel it in my soul, then there would be other times and it was playful...sex can be so much more then sex its postively a wonderful state of mind...when of course its between 2 people who should be having sex..."

I totally agree with you. Sex with my H pre-A was, for the most part, incredible. So the horrible sex during the A was so painful to me emotionally because we had had such an incredible connection in the past. My H has told me that the best sex he has ever had was with me. OW was number 2 from the BOTTOM of the list. Obviously, she should have never been on the list!

"2nd: affairs, especially long term ones are very rarely about the sex....only your wh and his counseler probably know the true answer to that one...and if the 2 of you get to a good place, maybe you might believe him, or maybe he will own it that is was more...."

Believe me, we have discussed this. What I didn't know until dealing with R was the HUGE role porn played in H's life. He was exposed to hardcore porn starting around age 12/13. He developed skewed ideas about sex and over time wrapped a large part of his self-esteem around sex. He met his OW on-line at an adult chat site.

The only email between the two I ever saw was the last email she sent him. Finding that email in his personal emails folder at his work email site was how I discovered the A. That email made reference to their wonderful week at the beach, but didn't contain any sexual comments otherwise. My H admitted that for the first half of their A, they sent each other extremely explicit sexual emails. He said wasn't comfortable having them on his work email (NO DUH!) and so quickly deleted them. I can only take his word on them. He has assured me that they were juvenile and fantasy and that sex IRL with her was NOTHING like what they wrote in their emails to each other. He figured out that one of the few times he felt good about himself was during sex because he thought he was good at sex. So in answer to your comment, yes, I do believe sex played the biggest role in the A, but obviously not for the sex itself, but rather for the esteem issues my H had.

Not surprising to us BS, my H realized that having sex with OW didn't enhance his self-esteem at all even though at the time of the A he initially thought it did. It was just a downward spiral.

I never knew until my H and I had been through loads of IC and MC that his ideas about sex were so warped. He admitted to me that prior to IC, EVERY time he had sex, he felt guilty and ashamed afterwards--even when he was with me, his wife! It all related back to his guilt about sex and his sneaking around as a boy looking as his father's porn collection.

Today sex is good again. Thank goodness my H understands why he had such skewed ideas about sex and has been able to change his thinking and to enjoy sex for the closeness and release that it should be. He no longer feels ashamed. I'm glad because I feel the same way about sex as you, and I know my H was missing out by not having a healthy view of sex.

Edited to add: my H was downright shocked when I pointed out to him that his A had lasted around 4 1/4 years. He was genuinely shocked. I asked him how in the hell he could have not had an idea that he had been having an A for so long. He said he didn't think about it. He had sporadic contact with her--intense amounts for weeks at a time and then nothing for a few months. Then the cycle would begin.

My H and I have come to believe, based on what he learned about OW and her sister, that sex was an issue for her because she was likely sexually abused as a child. Her behaviors very much fit in the known behaviors of women who were sexually abused as children.

So sad and unnecessary.

[This message edited by fairyfriend at 3:21 PM, August 22nd (Saturday)]


DDay 1--Feb 99
Crappy IC, false R--spring 1999
A ended around April, 2003
DDay 2--September 26, 2004
DDay 3--September 26, 2005 when I found out the REST of the truth
8/8/09--Doing very well due to hard work on my and H's part

Posts: 1607 | Registered: Jul 2006 | From: far north Chicago suburbs
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 6:23 PM, August 22nd (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MOW was H’s ex-gf/fiancee. They were together for around four yrs – HS and at uni (although they were at diff uni’s about 120miles apart). Apparently they were engaged last yr at school. He referred to her “extracting a £2.50 Woollies ring” from him. Whatever. They split end of second yr at uni when her to-be H asked her to move in with him on the condition that the old bf was out of the picture. She went back to H him, demanded he change uni’s or it was over. He walked away when what she really wanted was for him to declare his undying love for her and to change uni. All this was found out after dday.

One yr later, H and I met. A summer fling, I thought. MOW went on to m the man who became the BH. Brief as I can. I have older bro who m’d in reg office with close family and two friends. We retired to the pub on the village green after. Older sis never m’d, thought herself a bit Bohemian, had two kids and her other half fucked off with some student after a few yrs. Twin bro got engaged twice, then announced he was never going to get m’d. Somehow H and I had this conversation (I think we were out for a walk) that he’d taken this job, was thinking of buying a house and thought it would be nice for my parents to have at least one white wedding and it may as well be us. I sorted it in about 4mths (my mum had a pink fit) while he sorted the house some 250miles away. He never proposed to me as such. it was a really roundabout way of getting m’d. I truly wasn’t bothered, I was just going to move in with him – til he decided he had enough for a deposit. If you’ve seen Sex and the City film, it was a Carrie/Big type proposal.

He actually PROPOSED to bitchface when they were courting, and he actually PROPOSED to her (b/c it’s what she wanted…….) several times in several ways while they were having the affair. And romantically too. Dressed up in his fucking poetical words. And the rest about the life they would have had. Makes me sick to think of it. So the conclusion is she was the one he WANTED to marry while I am the one he HAPPENED to marry. In a way, she was not the “mistake” – I was!


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3328 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 9:07 PM, August 22nd (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ukgirl: did he ever say why she got the proposals and not you?.....

maybe he felt that he didn't need to do that with you because you were already his so to speak and he didn't have to win you over...

you were safe, and it sucks, because i was too....never did he jump through hoops for me, i was the abused one.....and it just sucks when you feel as though you were the one settled for, or the one that was "there" there to satisfy the hole left behind and in my case truly becomming the hole to fill that hole....

fairyfreind: the porn you wh was exposed to shouldn't have warped his views, i know as a kid, me and some of my cousins found some of my dad's porn, some playboys and through a friend we came across some movies...didn't warp us just made us curious....and clarified how sex was done, as kids we didn't know we could only guess.....at 12/13 the hrmones are starting and so are some urges....

is it possible that there is more then just being exposed to it...?

and on another note i am happy for you that you could have good sex with each other...i miss having sex, and it really hurts that knowing when those times it was intense for me, for him it only probably made him miss his ow#1 even more....he never missed me...and if he did never enough, never enough to risk what he risked for her...

pfm used to say he missed me, when we were not having sex too often because of what i thought were priority foo issues....but that was obviously a lie, another lie....because the one he missed was her....i was just a fill in....and everytime we had sex he would say " what does "she" want"....and stupid me, thought he was talking about my privates or a total fantasy...not a real live fantasy person that he had sex with whenever he could.....

sorry tend to ramble now and then...

i notice we all ramble, we all rant, we all vent...and we all have pain....and thankfully we all have each other now...one of the few blessings in this mess.....


(((((tribe))))


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
fairyfriend
♀ Member
Member # 11208
Default  Posted: 11:43 PM, August 22nd (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Unfortunately, what my H saw was not Playboy magazines. It was hardcore porn his father bought while he was on business trips overseas. Part of the issues was that his father is a major control freak. My H found the porn while he was snooping through his father's things. He looked at it whenever he got the chance until it disappeared one day. I suspect that one or both of his brothers might have been sneaking peeks, too.

He knew if his father ever caught him, he would be in the worst trouble of his life. The stories I heard about his father's temper! Scary.

So part of his guilt came from the fears he had of being caught by his father and punished. And believe me, he would have been.

There are more reasons why my H had the A, but the sex is part of the equation, and the part I was relating.

I think if my H had stumbled upon Playboy, which in the late 1960s was very tame, he wouldn't have developed the skewed views he had.

I have never been a proponent of porn because I think, for the most part, it objectifies women, gives men unrealistic ideas of sex, and tells men they are entitled to have their needs met without regard to women's needs or feelings. Just MHO. It's not that I am a prude. I'm not. I just don't think porn presents a healthy view of sex.

[This message edited by fairyfriend at 11:44 PM, August 22nd (Saturday)]


DDay 1--Feb 99
Crappy IC, false R--spring 1999
A ended around April, 2003
DDay 2--September 26, 2004
DDay 3--September 26, 2005 when I found out the REST of the truth
8/8/09--Doing very well due to hard work on my and H's part

Posts: 1607 | Registered: Jul 2006 | From: far north Chicago suburbs
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 12:06 AM, August 23rd (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

fairyfreind: the porn movies we came across through a freind were hardcore...and again they didn't warp us but made us very curious...not curious to do anything...just to find out more and seek out more porn if it were possible...but we didn't need it...just liked watching it amongst some giggles...we were about 12 and 13, maybe a bit younger...but not by much....

the reason i think there may have been more to his story is that what else happened in his life with his foo....its just odd that something like that would warp him so....jmho


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
menow
♀ New Member
Member # 25262
Default  Posted: 12:18 AM, August 23rd (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

no one out here for months, but i just backtracked to a LTA and do not know how to define it. there are other recent A's but seem to be for different personal affirmations (?????) new to this chat stuff but need discussion. how do I define the good times i have had in this 35 year R? if things were okay but not great during those years, (I figure LTA of 20 years) do i regret having something good but could have been better?
i have many friends of the OS, but do not stray. someone please enter thread and help me.


tryinghard

Posts: 15 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: california
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 12:22 AM, August 23rd (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

welcome menow: please go to the healing library if you had not already done so....i am sorry you have a need to be here, but you have found a truly safe place....

its usually a little quiet in here on weekends...general is usually busy somewhat 24/7...

(((((menow)))))


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 7:04 AM, August 23rd (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

fairyfriend.. I personally think early porn does not have to do with A's. It is actually the person and his ability to have it in himself not to betray. It has to do with parents ethics, friends you hang with, schools.. When I was 18, my best friend’s mother owned a strip joint. We visited every weekend to drink and watch.. for several years. Why did some of my friends fuck those whore and some of us did not? That is the underlying issue. I did not because of several reasons… but the underlying feelings, as I think back, was my ethics. My friends that did it all did it for the thrill, the feelings of sex…For me, it was just not the right thing to do, yet I looked a playboy, penthouse.. fantasized.

As my W’s Affair continued… it got more intense, more frequent. At that time I got NO more often. I turned to porn as a way of self cope and self satisfaction… feeling it was not wrong, but way to satisfy myself and not “bother” or a way to meet, “her needs” of not wanting sex with me… Looking at it today, It was a communication issue. If I could have talked to my W about my needs, wants and desires, then maybe she could have told me what she wanted.. And not received it from her boss. She was taught by her mom to claim up. Retrouvaille is helping us reconnect again.

As for the length… My wife was surprised it lasted so long too… but is started very slow, not planned, fell for the lust, then developed over time, mostly talked about work, personal work stuff, then grew with at times hot and heavy, then cooled… then hot again… and cooled… until she got to a point that she got delusional, just didn’t care if I found out or not, hated herself for doing this, didn’t think I cared, was going to leave me after the kids left… waited for me to make a mistake… The eight years.. She says it’s like when you just wake up and all these years past so fast… duel life… a sickness.. and defiantly caused physical sickness and trauma… she got to the point she couldn't sleep at night!

I think we can all look at the past and learn… but until you are ready to place that in your mind, take a chance and risk, start looking at only today… take care of yourself, work on yourself.. you won’t recover from this.. Of course we all are different… life goes on...

iwantamiracle.. glad you had a good trip.

Peace be with you all!

[This message edited by trynhard at 7:08 AM, August 23rd (Sunday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
fairyfriend
♀ Member
Member # 11208
Default  Posted: 10:00 AM, August 23rd (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't think I am explaining very well.

In my H's case, I do think the exposure to porn seriously affected him because that was how he learned about sex. If he had had positive messages about sex and its role in a relationship, about how men and women should treat each other (respectfully and lovingly), then I doubt looking at porn would have had such an impact. This porn taught him negative lessons about sex and roles of men and women. He bought into the subliminal (and not-so-subliminal) messages that women existed to please men and would do whatever, however, whenever to please men with no regard for their needs or wishes.

Because he was sneaking into his father's stash and knew he would be severely punished for doing so if caught, he developed feelings of guilt associated with the porn which he transferred to feelings of guilt about sex.

He grew up the middle son of three sons and tried his best to please his parents, but never could. He was one of those kids picked next-to-last for team sports in high school and felt inferior--until he discovered he was quite good at running. But the damage to his self-esteem had started in his young years, and he never recovered.

So when he started having sex, he discovered he was good at it. It was one of the few things he believed he was good at, so sex became a double-edged sword for him. He believed he was a good lover, but felt guilty for having sex. So when he had sex with any woman, he prided himself on his sexual prowess but even though he told himself he was trying to please the woman, his motive wasn't really to please her, it was to feed his self-esteem by showing himself that he was good at something.

I know it's very convoluted. I agree. The sex was the vehicle for him to feed his self-esteem because he hadn't learned how to in more positive ways. Like many WS (and BS, too), he came from a screwed-up FOO.

There are many other factors involved in his having an A, but when he started having the A, he believed it was for the sex. Through years of IC, MC, and talking through issues, we believe we have pretty much figured out all the causes.

And, oh yes, prior to and during his A, H was CONSTANTLY viewing porn as a coping mechanism. His porn use and the kind of porn he looked at/watched kept escalating as it lost its ability to help him cope with his anxiety. He said that in a very real way, OW was living porn. I can tell you that after DDay #2, I found BOXES of disks on which he had downloaded porn, and some of it was pretty nasty stuff.

What is most interesting is that once he understood the role porn played in his life, it began to lose its grip on him until he lost all desire to look at it. For the first couple of years after DDay #2, he was still struggling not to look at it when he felt stressed, but the last couple of years, he really hasn't felt the desire or need. Of course, he feels very positive about himself for no longer feeling that need.

H has worked very hard on his issues, and I am proud of him. What is more important than my being proud of him is his being proud of himself.


DDay 1--Feb 99
Crappy IC, false R--spring 1999
A ended around April, 2003
DDay 2--September 26, 2004
DDay 3--September 26, 2005 when I found out the REST of the truth
8/8/09--Doing very well due to hard work on my and H's part

Posts: 1607 | Registered: Jul 2006 | From: far north Chicago suburbs
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