He says he can't take that burden (he's the sole provider). He wants us to talk to our CSATs and see what we can come up with. He thinks a solution is to cut back -- each only do two sessions a month (no group). If we don't do that or they can't scale back the cost, we either quit (which means divorce) or I get a job on the weekends.
I'm a SAHM to our four kids (all under the age of 6). VERY busy, very hectic when you throw in keeping the house clean, grocery shopping, etc. VERY little down time. My weekends are my only down time and the only real time I have to spend with SAH. And now I may have to go get a job to pay for our therapy.
I told him I KNOW we can't cut back on therapy because I KNOW he's not sober and still treats me with disrespect, etc. He says he's been completely honest with his CSAT (which I find hard to believe because I know the CSAT would want him in group, and he said the CSAT says he doesn't need it). Anyways, I told him I CANNOT stay with him unless he can admit he has a problem and get sober. Period.
He said, "Let me ask you something. What if the information comes back and you don't like it?". I asked what he meant. Does he mean stuff he's done? Or why he does things? He wouldn't answer me. Told me to forget it. I said we weren't suppose to discuss/disclose things outside therapy, so we shelved it, but now I'm TERRIFIED. What the heck do you think he means?????
So just keep me in your prayers because we are about to hit a make-it-or-break-it crisis point.
I guess I don't feel the *need* to go as I can see the effects on him and the fact that he is working the program and investing - he does his work book, goes to meetings, keeps his IC appointments, and there has been a significant change in his behavior (and the frequency of our sex life). Plus, he just feels more 'present', if that makes any sense.
I'm not particularly concerned about this summer (perhaps I should be?). We have put a porn filter on the computer - a very good one (of course, there are always ways around it). I realize that I cannot effect his behavior. I hate being away for so long, of course, but it won't be too bad. We organized it so that I'm gone for 2 weeks, he's out with me for about 2.5 weeks, then I'm gone for 2.5 weeks then home. Plus, with cell phones, video chat, etc the distance doesn't feel as tangible.
I also view his time with the CSAT as *his*. I don't want to to intrude. However, I'm being invited in. From what Jekyll told me, it sounds like the CSAT wants to take my pulse, see if I have any concerns, give me some reassurances that Jekylls' working the program, etc.
"In life, unlike chess, the game continues after checkmate." - Asimov
"Be patient and tough; someday this pain will be useful to you." - Ovid
I am sorry for your frustration about finding a CSAT. Not knowing your financial situation, would it be possible to go away to one of the treatment centers as a couple for several days? The leading experts are Patrick Carnes and Douglass Weiss--Weiss is Heart TO Heart Counseling in CO Springs. Maybe they offer a sliding scale. I have to believe there are SA groups everywhere. As a starter, your SAH could also attend AA meetings--the 12 step program would help him with this addiction a great deal. Some men in my SAH's SA group drive over an hour to attend their meetings, so if it's important to them they will do it. This site and the web are great resources and if you keep investigating you'll find some helpful tools that may be near by. Also there are great books out there by the above mentined CSAT's so at least you both could start reading them. He must be motivated to help himself, or you're right, the situation will not improve. There is no such thing as "white knuckling" this terrible addiction. Church and Retrouvaille are other good resources for repairing the marriage, but not the addiction itself. Good luck, my prayers are with you!
Thanks, Baltimore. He is going to 2 meetings each week. One is a mixed where they are working on steps and one is an SA meeting. The problem is that there just aren't enough sober people to be sponsors and accty partners. He even went to another group and it was the same sitch, just no one really working the program. Frustrating. I contacted the site for CSATs and there truly are none in our area! So now are choices are phone counseling or something. Right now we can not afford anything, not even counseling.
I think that I'm going to have to get a job or something. I'm also a SAHM and homeschooling my oldest daughter. I don't know how I'm going to do all this. I know that he needs help, desperately. I don't know what to do or say anymore. I just don't think he's ready to take this seriously.
Anyway, thanks for being here everyone.
I try to read everything but it's difficult to respond to everything when I have a squirrely baby on my lap that likes to help me write.
I'm behind again/still due to not dealing very well with the discovery of my SO SA. We are both in early recovery, me in S Anon.
I am having chest pains, debilitating depression etc.
Anyway...I have an appointment with my IC tomorrow to finalize the consequences for the boundaries I came up with. I would love any ideas for boundaries & consequences that any of you have implemented. I cannot have him go to treatment due to financial difficulty.
Thanks...you guys rock
No emotion, for me, ever. If I was having a bad day, he would get mad. If I came to him for a hug or support, he would throw me off and tell me I was too needy. I posted a description of sociopaths on another thread a day or two ago, and as I was reading it, I was thinking, wow, STBXH fits almost every single one of those.
I never considered that before, and I don't know if it is just the addiction that has him so heartless, but one thing is for sure, no one matters in his life except for him (and his dog).
My SAH has been doing the exercises on Recovery Nation as well as his meetings. I have seen changes in his behavior but I still don't think he's doing as much as he could. However, his recovery is up to him.
For the last 3 weeks he's been working on full disclosure. He's been writing it at the computer. Every night for a few hours at the computer typing, crying, getting up and pacing, etc. It's torture obviously. He has said many times its extensive and he's terrified it may mean the end of the marriage. I have not reacted to his statement or actions; but have simply let him work this out in his own way.
Last night he stayed up late and finished it. He wants me to read it today or tomorrow before our DD gets back from the coast on Sunday. I am now TERRIFIED!!!
I hope you will all keep me in your thoughts and prayers. I suspect it's going to be a rugged weekend.
Goodluck with the letter. I'm sure the waiting has been agony. I hope you're doing ok.
On a lighter note I went to a psychic today where she told me my significant other is a good man and that we would have trouble in the near future over when to have kids. hmmmm...
I think the psychic's sign was misspelled- it should have read psychotic!!
Just kidding, sort of. He may very well be a very good man, but he is also a very unwell man.
edited for typos (I always have to!)
I like your take on the good, but unwell.
I also have a fairy friend that is trying to cheer me up. He needs to work harder!
Oh the best part was I finally told her why we were seprated and she said we'd get back together, but I can't make him feel guilty about anything! I think I better stick to standard therapy.
I did have a friend who saw a psychic but she had spelled her sign incorrectly and it read: "Physic". Hard to trust someone who can't spell to "read" the future...
Then this morning I get on Craigslist (been trying to find something for sale). You know how the links you click turn from blue to purple when you've clicked on them in the past? Well, the link for "women seeking men" had been clicked. Now it IS possible MAYBE that one day I was curious/afraid and clicked on it, but I truly don't remember doing that. So now I'm EXTRA terrified.
I'm trying to hang on until my appointment with my CSAT on Tuesday. I have my codependency group Mon night (run by same CSAT) and I'm scared I'm going to unload everything on them all.
At this point I kind of feel like I want him to take a polygraph just to get an answer yes or no on whether he's ever been with anyone else. No details -- just yes or no. I'm afraid I'm doing all this work and continueing to emotionally invest only to find out down the road that the answer to that question is "yes" and I'd have to leave anyways.
The poor husband was visibly upset when he gave me the printed copy of his “autobiography”. He has been working on it as part of his First Step and at the counselor’s request. I have been requesting it for my healing for months. Even though he was afraid, he gave it to me to read. It was a big act of bravery on his part. He acknowledged the "knowledge is power" aspect and wanted me to know so we'd be on equal footing from now on.
I read his disclosure and it was very similar to his initial "disclosure" but he did admit to some more and other behaviors I didn't know about. I was able to detach and stay calm. I was able to see through the veil of addiction to the man himself and I felt extreme empathy for him. What he had been so scared about, so terrified of me finding out was not as bad as anything I could have imagined. The fact that he was finally able to trust me and let go of the fear was a huge step. After I read it; I told him how proud I was of him for doing the mature thing and trusting me. At that point he broke down crying in my arms. He had been so afraid that I would leave him if I knew the truth. I told him that the truth was all I ever wanted and how brave he had been taking this first step. He said he now feels like he is ready to move forward in his recovery because he now knows the truth is finally out there. He said he felt light, less burdened and he will do everything he can to recover.
I think that we are closer now than ever. I feel like I know enough now to make an informed decision on my life and what boundaries/consequences will follow if those are infringed upon again. I feel like my husband has turned a corner and has set his own values and boundaries - the most important of which is honesty and ownership of his actions. It was a HUGE step.
I can't fully express how unburdened and strong I feel right now. I now have the same information he does and we can move forward now. The past is now known and put in its rightful place - the past. Our future - I think it looks very promising. I am feeling very, very good today.
Thank you all for your thoughts, prayers and concern. I am more than fine - I am at peace for a change.
edited for typos
[This message edited by 2br02b at 10:42 AM, June 7th (Sunday)]
OMG I feel sick. Ever since our arguement on Friday, I have just been a big ball of nerves. I'm so scared about what he meant about me "not liking information" when I find out. Of course, I finally realized he COULD mean what if the CSAT says he doesn't have any problems (which is possible since he doesn't think he HAS a problem). But I'm still scared to death and he's been kind of cool and detached from me all weekend.
In the initial months after D-Day, my H worked hard to stay in control and would often say things like this, I now believe, to keep me off balance. He had spent our entire marriage keeping me under control by making me second guess myself. After an argument, it was ALWAYS me that initiated patching things up. Deep down he knew I could not stand to be 'at odds' with him. He could count on me 'fixing' things, even if he was totally responsible.
It's all he knew, I guess, and if gained any kind of control, I could make life uncomfortable for him. He couldn't let that happen; he had an addiction to deny and protect.
In time you will look back on feeling unsettled by his remark and think or even say to him, "How dare you!!" These types of remarks will not unsettle you any more. You will understand the source of the remark; a survival technique he has used, or is now developing.
It took a few years for my IC appointments to be about ME and not about how SAh makes me feel. The power he had over my feelings does not exist with the same intensity it once did. I backslide now and then and let those things have power over me, but more and more, that is happening less and less. You will get there H2H. And when you do, you will feel some real liberation. Hang in there!
[This message edited by 1Forward1Back at 11:04 AM, June 7th (Sunday)]
I am checking in with the little bit of time I have today...
EO- I am so sorry about the loss of your friend so early... That is so hard.
Broken11- Hang in there sweetie. I know you are hurting and this is awful. Be gentle with yourself and give yourself as much time as you need. Don't let anyone pressure you and if you want to exercise your "non- codependent" side- Tell them to back off! It's your marriage, not theirs!
Watchingu- I echo everyone's advice about finding as much support with people who are familiar with SA as possible. It's very hard for our friends and family to understand what is going on with this addiction, and it does make it difficult for them to be supportive. COSA, CODA, S-Anon and all the other resources given here should start to be able to help a little. We've all been here... Lean on us as much as you need to. There will always be someone here to talk. You will get through this and it is possible to have a good life afterwards...Take care. (((HUGS)))
Melissa21- Hugs to you- I know you are having a hard time. As hard as it may be to see, you have done the very best thing for yourself and your children. Good luck on the job search.
Silla- I agree with EO in telling the CSAT what you need. They may feel that they are giving you examples of other cases so that you feel less alone in your specific situation... I would guess that if you tell the IC that this bothers you, they will stop doing it. Good luck.
Confusedandsad- It's definitely okay to have dealbreakers. In fact, boundaries are crucial to your recovery from all of this mess. I know it's been touched on, but make sure that they are enforceable boundaries, and that you will follow through with them once they are set. JW gave you great advice.
Bird- Good to hear that you guys are doing the tai chi classes... That's great! My H and I have been doing yoga together and it is nice to have those "new" memories... (By the way- We always need you! But it is nice that there are so many great people here who do give such great advice...)
Tootrusting- I have not had to do an assignment like what you did, but I think it is very interesting... I hope it went well with sharing it with your H.
hope4tomorrow- Sorry things are rough right now. But, you are doing the right thing by focusing on yourself. You cannot change him or the circumstances. You can only change you and your thoughts and actions. I hope you are hanging in there and trying to get the support you need with your step work. Take care. (((HUGS)))
JW- I'm in for the spa treatments! Yay!
Neversawit- Sorry you find yourself here, but glad that you found this site. Post as often as you need and look back on some of the posts for some resources to check out. We are here to talk or answer any questions. There are poeple here who are divorcing, divorced, separated, reconciling and reconciled... We are all here to help out in any way we can. Take care of yourself and your children.Good luck on finding a job-
Sorrowheart- I think that sounds like great karma!
hurtbs- I have gone to a few CSAT appointments with my H, at their request... I actually enjoyed them. I think your H is right about the CSAT wanting your "pulse" about how things have been going... At least that's what my H's always wants to know. I think it will be nice to be able to say that you have been feeling good about your H's recovery. It will be nice for him to hear that in front of his IC also... Hope it goes well-
iwillrecover- Sorry you are having such a hard time, but glad you are going to your meetings- There was a post on people's specific boundaries that 7yrs started awhile back, but I think that boundaries are a very individual thing and they should be what you need and not necessarily what anyone else may need. That being said, I do think it can help to see what other people are thinking and you can use it as a guideline for yourself if you need to. Good luck with making them. Just make sure you can stick to the consequences if the boundary is crossed!
2br02b- I am glad it went well and I am glad you are at peace right now. That's a great place to be...
hoping2heal- Hope you can hang in there until you see your IC- I think 1F1B gave you great advice, and it does seem to be a bit of a controlling statement to make- I hope you can get some clarity about what he is talking about and why he is being so coy about it. This isn't really the time for him to make a statement like that and then not say anything else about it. Good luck...
The cost of therapy is highway robbery. While it is not ideal, is it possible for you to reduce the number of IC sessions and increase your group partcipation (I assume the group is free or cost less)? Is it possible to negotiate a rate reduction with your IC? (I negotiated a $20 reduction with my IC).
I also hear resentment in your posts. You were not the one who caused the mess. You were not the one who did anything wrong. You did not make bad/wrong choices. Nonetheless, you are stuck with the consequences of someone else's wrongdoing. Why should you be in therapy in the first place? Why should you and your family have to be in debt for a problem that you did not cause or bargain for?
If you feel like that, rest assured you are not alone. I try to remember (easier said than done) that therapy is necessary and beneficial for ME. The fact that my husband has created the (unfortunate) necessity of therapy has given me no choice but to resolve my "demons" - my childhood emotional abuse by my parents, my bitterness about life and my low self-esteem.
As to a lie detector test, while you have to do what is best for you, I wish to offer two arguments against it.
One, unless your husband is in full recovery (which he is not, though he seems to be on the right path), he is lying about something. I have not seen any SA making 100% truthul and full disclosure, unless they are in full recovery (and even then....). So you already know he is more likely than not still to be lying about something (whether it is lie by omission, lie by half truths, or an outright lie); why then ask him to do the test when you already know the result? To insist is like pain-shopping, or alternatively, a co-dependent way to control and shame your husband.
Second, a lie detector test will only tell you about the past, and says nothing about the future. So let say the lie detector test comes out clear, or if it turns out he has lied and therefore he now fesses up, it is not going to make him honest tomorrow, the next week, the next month. Is honesty by coercion and fear sustainable? Are you going to administer a lie detector test once a week, or randomly to "catch him off guard"?
I am not in any way minimizing your agony. Please believe me, I am not in a good place right now myself. But it is important to slow down and remind each other that we must re-focus inwardly toward ourselves. I am thinking of you!
multiple A's, 2 LTA's,multiple indescretions...before and throughout our marriage
I had a bad weekend. I am starting to think I am losing my marbles.
We went to a coffee shop a month ago. My husband asked the girl for a paper sleeve for the cup, telling her "I have delicate hands". The girl winked and responded "I bet you do". My husband thought the exchange was witty but I did not find that amusing at all.
Fast forward to last Saturday. When we went to the coffee shop again, the same girl served my husband (my husband denied it was the same girl). The girl was flicking her eyelashes and being extremely friendly to my husband. And when I asked her a question, she initially ignored me. And I observed how she served other customers, she was unfriendly and had the "talk to the hand attitude".
I did not think my husband is acting out. However, I just did not like the whole dynamics. When I was "sour faced" about it, my husband said "I wish I can buy a damn coffee without you accusing me about things", and "I want you to cut out that attitude".
I flipped! I was off the handle, anxiety attack, angry and miserable. I told him he had no idea how humiliating it was to have a woman flirting (even innocently) with my own husband right in front of me, and for her to look down on me as if my being there was an "inconvenience" for her.
My husband said it was cruel for me to say he has not experienced humiliation, because his ex-wife treated him despicably (and I agree). To be fair to him, he has looked after me and pulled out all stops to try to make me feel better. But to me, he is still not getting it! I will sound like a bitch; I am not ungrateful - cooking meals, making the bed, telling me I am beautiful are all wonderful things. But at no time did he acknowledge it was humiliating and hurtful for me - I feel like he is soothing a naughty child who is acting up and having a tandrum.
I ran to the bedroom and wanted to close the door because I could not handle it anymore. He pushed the door open and started yelling. Things turned from bad to worse. I don't think I have disclosed this before, but I am of asian decent, so I am 115 lbs and short. My husband is 6 foot 7 (yes, it's not a typo) and 265 lbs. I was angry when he started yelling at me red faced and pushed the door, so I said "What are you going to do, punch me? If you punch me, I am calling the police".
He was angry and miserable. He said "I have never hit you or anybody. How could you even think that? What would my mother think?"
I would NEVER EVER call the police if he did not hit me. But if I feel threatened, I should have a right to call the police? You have no idea how scary it is when a gigantic, red faced man, pushed the door open behind you and closed in on you. He said "Have I ever even laid a finger on you? Have I even rough played with you?" My answer is no - he has always been gentle with me. But, and this is the big but, I did not think he would manipulate me, lie to me, cheat on me, tell another woman he loves her, and bring a woman to my house either! In my mind, there is no more guarantee in life. There is no certainty. Do I reasonably think he will hit me? No. But do I reasonably think he will never hit me? No either.
Last night, he pulled his notorious passive agressive stunt - "I think you should think about what you want from us and I think I should think about that myself" (transaction - we should think hard about whether we want to stay in this marriage). He says this every time we have a fight. So I said okay, I will think and I left it at that. I was too tired to think. I am psychically drained.
Anyway, I am stressed to the max. I want to just crawl in a hole and never come out and see day light. I feel like a bad person. I feel I am an over-reacting, drama-queen-bitch. I want to be a good person. I want to be kind to people. I do not want to be nasty or mean.
Well, here is my story. One year out - I feel like I just want to give up. I don't think I can take this anymore.
I'm so sorry to hear about your weekend. It's so frustrating how dealing and processing all this makes what we once thought of as a normal life turn into a dysfunctional mess. And we're acting like the dysfunctional ones or what we once thought of dysfunctional. I'm not saying your are! I just know after dealing with this I see a person in myself that I don't recognize.
I do think you response was fine. Your gut was telling you something. Your husband probably liked the attention and your gut knew that woman was/is trouble.
Avoid the coffee shop!! :)
I don't have much advice, but I understand your pain and I think you're handling youself wonderfully.