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User Topic: Npd Thread Part V II
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 7:18 PM, June 14th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yep. Use the recorder fallenangel, it's protection! Use anything and everything you can to protect yourself.
If you choose to reveal that he is being recorded, which is not a bad idea! as it can minimize the volume of abuse, prepare to have the source hunted, ie, prepare to make the recording totally inaccessible to him, as you know it will be hunted.

In the early days, I'd leave "tells", like my wallet's corner touching the keys (unbeknownst to her) when I took a shower.

You aren't betting it wasn't moved (she went thru my wallet) are you? The personality-disordered are driven...I mean that...driven by forces they've long and long relinquished themselves to.
Slaves to their compulsions, they have no true knowledge of themselves. You must not let yourself be sacrificed on altars of their construct. They are false.


Posts: 6032 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
Cogal
♀ Member
Member # 28314
Default  Posted: 12:46 AM, June 16th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am crazy right?!

I am thinking about agreeing to the MC. But before we go I will call the therapist and explain how stbs is NPD, that I am only going in hopes someone can convince him to get his OWN therapy. That it is not ok to share "details" with the kids. That the divorce of his own creation.

I am expecting too much right? He won't listen, will he? It will just frustrate the shit out of me and I will say something I shouldn't, right?


I need stbx to agree in writing to let me take the kids on vacation for 2 weeks over thanksgiving. We go every year for this time. He has agreed verbally. But when I asked for it in writing he changes the subject and also reminds me I cannot take them out of state w/o his approval. I need to stop trying and just have the lawyers handle it right?

WTF to do I get myself back into to trying to reason with him, why, why, why. He is not in reality as my therapist says.


Me (bw): 30 something
exH NPD: 30 something
kids: preschool twins
d-day 4/09 (7 month EA/PA)
married 10 years
divorced and ready for 2011

It's not that I have trust issues, it's that you shouldn't trust some people!


Posts: 279 | Registered: Apr 2010
Nicole5
♀ Member
Member # 17794
Default  Posted: 11:00 AM, June 16th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Cogal,

After 5 years of trying to stay as far away from MC as possible, I finally relented.

I probably logged a million conversations prior to deciding that I had to go with him to MC so I could finally get some closure. (either the MC would "set him straight" or she would give me some kind of sign that she felt this was hopeless)

It didn't take long. After 4 sessions it was painfully clear that we weren't going to make it. At one point the counselor actually said those words.

I will never know if she meant to say it or if she was thinking out loud, but I have those words to take with me as I walk away knowing, on every level, there was nothing I could have done to effect the change/s necessary to save the marriage.

More to your point, that MC is now his IC. It has given me a measure of peace knowing that he was in good hands. (that I brought the horse to water, so-to-speak)

IMHO,go to MC if you feel you must in order to be able to live your life without regrets. Answer the MC questions honestly without worry about saying the "right" or the "wrong" thing.

Since you have a lawyer involved already, let him (or her) handle the vacation plan and agreement. Just tell your NPD husband that that you are just trying to make sure your lawyer earns his/her keep

Nicole


divorced my WH on Nov 4, 2011
(see my profile for "the story")


Posts: 338 | Registered: Jan 2008 | From: TX
diditagn
♀ Member
Member # 3433
Default  Posted: 1:11 PM, June 16th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Going through some old files and found this. Thought it might help some.

Breaking up with a histrionic or narcissist? Be prepared for the battle of your life! While you are an emotional basket case, he is as Cold as Ice! While you are left holding down the fort and dealing with the real-life responsibilities, he walks away from everything leaving you to mop off his stage and pay his bills. He will punish you in ways you couldn't possibly have ever imagined...

.... and not even acknowledge it to himself! Why? Because he's off charming the socks off of new women as if your years together didn't even exist! And to him they didn't! The narcissist has a 'counterfeit heart'!

Narcissists tend to make very good first impressions on others. They are excellent actors and can fool almost anybody, even trained individuals. However, they have counterfeit hearts. Underneath their brilliant exterior lies a man that is self-centered and self-focused, dishonest, irresponsible, disloyal, and lacking emotions, remorse, and a conscience. These men live with a false sense of grandiosity and specialness and are easily found to be arrogant and deceitful. Underneath their fake exterior is an empty fraud who seemingly is lacking a human soul.

"Women know how to fake orgasm. Men know how to fake an entire relationship." ~ Sharon Stone

Of course, you will never see this in the beginning of the relationship with a narcissistic man. Many women do not see any of these awful qualities until the relationship gets serious because both the narcissist and his prey tend to idolize people in the beginning of relationships.

And being idolized feels good - so good that we often willingly overlook the red flags.

Unfortunately, the narcissist is sociopathic in that they often see themselves as victims, and lack remorse or the ability to empathize with others (did you notice that [according to him] ALL his 'exes' were 'psycho bitches'? THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN MAJOR RED FLAGS WAVING IN YOUR FACE FROM EVERYWHERE ON THAT ONE - BUT IT PROBABLY DIDN'T REALLY HIT YOU UNTIL 'YOUR' RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM WAS OVER!!). (More on this later...)

See, narcissistic men haven't the ability to see their own negative actions or the detrimental roles they play in their relationships with others. The narcissist is a deceptive man and the most common form of his deception is his own self-deception. He truly believes he is perfectly innocent of having committed any wrongdoing - ever.

He holds himself completely blameless for any part in the breakdown of your relationship (or ANY of his past relationships). Don't hold your breath waiting for an apology from this man, or even an admittance on his part of being partially to blame - for anything. He believes he has done nothing wrong, as he is just so wonderful! (At least, in his own mind.)

The narcissist doesn't care about your problems or your feelings. He has absolutely no regard or respect for anyone's feelings; he is completely without empathy and is never above taking advantage of others for his own personal gain. He is constantly hungry for praise and he will go on a feeding frenzy for the adoration and admiration he desperately seeks with every individual he comes in contact with. He is a legend in his own mind, and deeply living in a fantasy world built on his own imagined self-importance.

"The narcissist can neither give nor receive love. He cannot empathize with the pain and suffering of others. Although he is often incredibly charming and draws many people into his 'enchanted circle', the narcissist is incapable of true intimacy. At the core of his life experience, the narcissist has emotionally and often financially harmed so many. He has treated others with cruelty, ruthlessness and indifference too many times. Ultimately, in the depth of his unconscious, he knows he is an empty fraud" ~Linda Martinez-Lewi Ph.D.

Nothing can be more painful than breaking up with a histrionic narcissistic man. He will not take it kindly - not because he will grieve the loss of you (you mean nothing to this man) but simply because you will have embarrassed him. And damaging his ego is a totally unforgivable sin to the narcissist! I'm afraid you're about to become his next victim, so be aware of his soon-to-come character assassin of you, your family, your friends, and even your children. (Narcissistic men [they all hold an actor's award] will say just about anything about another in order to protect their perfect 'image'.)

Whether or not this has happened to you, it is still a very painful realization when you come to discover that you meant absolutely nothing to someone you loved very much. The realization that this man never loved you (don't delude yourself) hurts beyond compare. It is hard to understand that a histrionic narcissist loves only himself, and, if anything, considered you more a 'love-rival' than a 'lover'.

He was with you for the 'benefits'. His benefits could have been something as simple as getting his needy ego stroked, or being taken care of financially, or maybe it was something more, like status or opportunity - but whatever his benefits, being loved by you or being in an intimate relationship with you was not one of them. What I mean to say is 'love' and 'relationship' are not considered benefits to him!

You will find that you have changed during the course of the relationship with a narcissist. You will walk away completely far removed from the beautiful woman you were when you entered it. You may have gone from soft, sweet and feminine to hardened and bitter. From trusting, open and receptive to suspicious and untrusting. From self-assured and confident to being full of self-doubt and insecurities. It will take some hard work on your part to let this damaged part of you go and find your old self again.

A NARCISSIST HAS A CALLOUS DISREGARD - FOR YOU

For most of us breaking up with a narcissist can leave us feeling confused, devastated, and untrusting of all men in the future.

Usually, when a relationship ends both parties grieve some, both parties have regrets and both parties have done things that they feel remorseful for.

But not a narcissist! He walks away from you with a cold, callous disregard. He feels nothing.

A narcissist will avoid looking at you - even if you are sitting right in front of him. This is his way of 'dismissing' and 'devaluing' you. All narcissists do this and, of course, there is nothing about these actions that are normal, but your mind can't conceive this and so it tries to understand. However, there is no making sense of the 'senseless'.

A narcissist can turn from loving you to discarding you almost abruptly as it took for him to 'idolize' you after his first meeting you. Uh, what was that? About one date would you say?

"Abuse is an integral, inseparable part of the Narcissistic Personality Disorder. The narcissist idealizes and then DEVALUES and discards the object of his initial idealization. This abrupt, heartless devaluation IS abuse. ALL narcissists idealize and then devalue. This is THE core of pathological narcissism. The narcissist exploits, lies, insults, demeans, ignores (the "silent treatment"), manipulates, controls. All these are forms of abuse. " ~ by Sam Vaknin, Ph.D.

The narcissist has to be NUMBER ONE, the CENTER OF ATTENTION, THE BIG CHEESE, the MAIN ATTRACTION. If he is in a situation where he fears not getting the adulation that he feels he deserves, such as with your friends or co-workers, or even in a club that you frequent (translation: your territory), he will be extremely uncomfortable, either claiming a headache, feeling 'bad vibes' in the place, or simply getting angry. He may insult or dismiss everyone there as 'substandard human beings'. A narcissist cannot share his limelight with anyone, not even his spouse.

It is especially hard to let go of a relationship breakdown when you can't find any rhyme or reason to the way it all unfolded. We think that all people are good people and can't understand how someone could so easily just dismiss us as if we never existed.

Truth is, you didn't exist to the narcissist. He is so totally and completely self-centered to the point of his being the only person in his life - ever. You simply were a temporary ego-boost. A narcissist supplier (an enforcer and validator of his self-love). His mirror.

You were taken in by his phony charm simply because you trusted men. And now you are left with doubts, insecurities, questions, and extreme hurt that one you cared for could so easily 'dismiss you' and then walk away completely unmoved and untouched by the experience.

You want him to hurt, too. To show sorrow. To feel remorse.

So that you can feel important again. Like you mattered.

But you didn't. And it has nothing to do with you. He simply is unable to care for anyone other than himself, no matter whom they are. And deep inside you know that you have just wasted years of your life on someone who is an empty fraud. It's like you imagined everything; nothing was real. He was a masterful actor when he was getting his ego fed; but now that he is not getting his narcissistic supply from you anymore he simply - and completely - has totally erased you from his life. It is important to remember that narcissists are 'plotters' and he has been plotting the destruction of the relationship since the very first moment his charming, but fake persona met you.

Expect your world to fall apart whereas his world will remain unscathed - as will his emotions. OOPS, pardon me, I made a mistake! Make that "his 'lack of' emotions". Narcissistic men haven't any empathy for others, and will never take any direct responsibility for any pain they may have caused. They will never acknowledge their wrongdoings, or apologize to you, because they truly believe themselves to be perfect. They project all their faults and flaws onto you, accusing you of the very things that they, themselves, are guilty of.

In fact, throughout your entire relationship, you probably were lead to believe that you were the problem when in actuality it was their narcissism that was at fault. You have subconsciously learned to take his attacks personally, because he is so very good at manipulating the people around him.

Narcissistic and histrionic men play on the fact that most of us are trusting and forgiving, and that we want to believe in them.

Narcissists are all about their image, and they spend an inordinate amount of time perfecting their false front, or their 'image'. He's forever aware of his impression on people, and he knows exactly what 'face' to put on to draw people into his 'magical circle' of followers - all with the intent to enhance his own self-exaltation.

Whatever his career, special talent, or gift may be he will spend days, weeks, months, YEARS perfecting it. If he is a lawyer there is no winning a legal argument against him. If he is a musician he will practice the same tune over and over again, each time trying to make it even more perfect than the time before. If he is a doctor he will try to out-diagnose all his colleagues. If he is a salesman, he will read every book on the market on the art of sales. Perfecting his persona for the sole purpose of gaining admiration is the only thing he holds important, and the only reward he needs.

He is an expert at even fooling himself into thinking he is larger than life and, unfortunately, the more positive the feedback he receives, the more trapped in his mirror he becomes. He would rather have adoration from complete strangers than a deep meaningful relationship with a loving partner. His image is superficial and covers up his complete lack of inner awareness. He is, quite simply, an expert fake, forever on the search for a true acceptance, but never daring enough to show his 'real self' for fear of not receiving it.

The sad thing is, because he feels he is loved for his fake front, he never truly feels loved for his real self, and this just further enables and encourages his narcissism.

The narcissistic mate displays many typical psychopathic characteristics. He may have falsely displayed deep emotion toward you (when he was in your good graces). In reality, he was less concerned with you than with making himself look good. In the romance department, a narcissist or a histrionic man has an uncanny ability to gain your trust and affection quickly, disarming you with his charm (i.e., "What a beautiful necklace; you have such excellent taste in jewelry") and captivating you with his many grandiose plans (i.e., "I'm getting the old band together and we are going to tour Europe"). If he cheats on you you'll probably find forgiveness for him - maybe even blame yourself for his infidelities - but one day when you've had enough, he'll leave you with nothing but the breath-taking epiphany that your whole life with him has been a lie. He'll also, most likely, leave you with an empty pocketbook, too. Of course, by this time he'll already have a new 'sucker' under his wing, and could care less what he has done to you.

Yes, living with, loving and leaving a narcissistic man is an experience unlike any other! You are left deeply confused and weakened by the abuse.

***

"My narcissist was mad at me every single day. In fact, I can't remember even one day that he wasn't angry, grudgeful, judgmental, and insulting."

***

He wants you to pay for his inner pain, and he will do everything in his power to punish you and push you over the brink. Your mind can't rationalize that these men are not 'normal', and so it tries to make sense of their behavior.

Yet, the narcissistic ex continually acts in abusive, bewildering and confusing ways. He is not above committing destructive acts. When the breakup becomes a reality, it is likely that his 'false persona' will completely disappear all together and you will most likely experience the most hurtful of behavior from him. He is completely lacking in empathy, and - since he is not receiving any admiration from you anymore - he will dismiss you and discard you as worthless to him, consequently dropping any fake front that he use to put up in order to keep you in the relationship.

"Narcissists become particularly shameless during a divorce. They accuse the other spouse of neglecting the children when the reverse is true. They hide their assets long before the formal divorce proceedings begin. They lie about their net worth so they don't have to part with alimony or child support. Some narcissists, both male and female, abandon their families all together and start new lives with more attractive, adoring and compliant partners. Leaving the previous spouse and children in a state of financial and psychological chaos is of no consequence to them. Many narcissists repeat these egregious patterns of behavior throughout their lives without shame or regret." ~ Linda Martinez-Lewi Ph.D.


Happy people don't have the best things, they make the best with what they have.

Posts: 1556 | Registered: Feb 2004 | From: WI
diditagn
♀ Member
Member # 3433
Default  Posted: 1:13 PM, June 16th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

He wants you to pay for his inner pain, and he will do everything in his power to punish you and push you over the brink.

This is where I'm at now, I can't wait till I don't have to deal with him anymore


Happy people don't have the best things, they make the best with what they have.

Posts: 1556 | Registered: Feb 2004 | From: WI
lsccbean
♀ Member
Member # 5444
Default  Posted: 1:43 PM, June 16th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Counceling with a N is a total waste of time

I totally agree!


“A woman has got to love a bad man once or twice in her life, to be thankful for a good one.” ~Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings

http://lsccbean.blogspot.com/2011/12/anniversary.html


Posts: 1141 | Registered: Sep 2004
woundedby2
♀ Member
Member # 18522
Default  Posted: 2:07 PM, June 16th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Excellent post, diditagn.

Cogal, let us know what happens in your MC. It ought to be interesting.


Me: BS
2 kids: DD15 and DS18
Him: The Assclown NPD
OW: "friend" of 15 years
Divorced! Feb. 2010

Everybody, soon or late, sits down to a banquet of consequences.
~Robert Louis Stevenson


Posts: 7636 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: SoCal
mommyblonde
♀ Member
Member # 22548
Default  Posted: 2:07 PM, June 16th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

"He would rather have adoration from complete strangers than a deep meaningful relationship with a loving partner."

THIS hits the nail on the head.


"When a heart breaks no it don't breakeven" The Script

Posts: 513 | Registered: Jan 2009
diditagn
♀ Member
Member # 3433
Default  Posted: 3:38 PM, June 16th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I read this and it all seems to hit the nail on the head.


Happy people don't have the best things, they make the best with what they have.

Posts: 1556 | Registered: Feb 2004 | From: WI
Nicole5
♀ Member
Member # 17794
Default  Posted: 8:22 PM, June 16th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I saved this and review as needed. Maybe it will help someone here...


STARVE THE VAMPIRE

by Sandra Brown, MA


Pathological persons are energy and emotional vampires. They live off of your emotional content. Part of their personality deficit is the lack of a stable and consistent inner core of a self concept so they need constant attention, distraction, and identity management from which they draw their identity.

Lots of their identity is acquired from their relationships since internally there is so little core self to draw from. This is part of the reason they are so exhausting. In order to get their emotional 'blood supply' from you, they 'hook you' into conversations or arguements or any kind of response they can get from you. They live vicariously thru your own emotional expressions of love, frustration, confusion, etc. It doesn't always matter 'what' emotion is fed to the vampire (although narcissists like adoration) but just that there is SOME content is enough for them--even your tears, or your screams, or your insults. It doesn't matter...they just 'need' something, anything from you in the way of content. If they dont' get the blood supply/emotional content from you, they will seek elsewhere. (Remember Dracula? He just moved from town to town taking it where he could get it?)

When you begin to break up (read my How to Break Up With a Dangerous Man E-book) he will fear the loss of emotional supply. He won't fear losing you so much as he will getting his identity and his sense of self from you and/or the relationship. He fears the loss of self or 'who am I without her?' This is a very fragmented ego state --one which only exists thru relationships with others.

So when you try to break up, he will continue to contact you which is why they are hard to break up with (read my book). They are predictable in their approaches to get you to respond to them (you are feeding the vampire his emotional blood supply every time you talk to him). These are some of his approaches and if you can get a bag of popcorn and just watch it like it was a LifeTime for Women movie and detach from it, you will see a whole movie pan out like this:

* One contact he's angry, blaming, shaming
When you don't respond to that verbally or emotionally (think like you are lobotomized with no facial expression...that's what I want women to do with these men)

* Then one contact will be sweet, loving, buy you things
When you don't respond

* He will promise to do what you've asked for years..go to counseling, church, take meds, be nice, go to anger managment
When you don't respond

* He will get angry again--say you aren't working on the relat which is why it's gonna fail
When you don't respond

* He will quit calling for a while to make it look like he's moved on (They are boomerangs, they ALWAYS come back a few times.)
When you dont' respond

* He will indicate he found someone else or had sex with someone else
When you don't respond

(Are you enjoying the popcorn and movie about now??)

* He becomes 'sick' -- he doesn't know what this mysterious illness is, or he has prostate cancer, MS, some other lethal disease
When you don't respond

* He will just go back to drinking/drugging/dealing/driving too fast/etc.
When you don't respond

* He will kill himself, leave the area, never see you again
When you don't respond

* He will take the kids, drag your a*ss thru court, threaten to physically harm you
When you don't respond

* He will tell you he's dating someone you hate or his previous girlfriend/wife
When you don't respond

* It will come full circle and will begin again, at the top of this list.

When I do phone counseling, it's all the same stories. I know that women think that their experiences are unique. But pathology is all the same--these people aren't very creative and don't deviate much from the strict internal structure that is associated with pathology. They ONLY react in certain ways so for me, it's pretty easy to predict. Once you are able to understand this, you can predict his sad/silly/stupid reactions to a break up.

Since they live off of your emotion and NEED it, the sooner you starve him out by having no contact and if you have to because of your kids, no words exchanged and no emotional content on your face, the vampire will flee to the next available source to be fed.

When women don't disconnect once they understand the feeding and maintanence of pathologicals, they are doing it becuase SHE wants to remain. The ball is then in your court to figure out where you are still hung up so you can disconnect. This is not a judgment about women not being able to leave. It is a POINTER to a place where the dis-engagment has hit a snag. Simply notice where the snag IS so that something can be done.

As soon as you are ready to really make the break, buy the Break Up book and then starve THE VAMPIRE. I'm going to have frig magnets made with that on there so women remember daily to not feed the vampire who is lurking near by.


Nic


divorced my WH on Nov 4, 2011
(see my profile for "the story")


Posts: 338 | Registered: Jan 2008 | From: TX
Cogal
♀ Member
Member # 28314
Default  Posted: 9:29 PM, June 16th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My vampire is still sucking me dry, damn it. Very good reminder to think about why I am still in any contact non-kid related. I am doing a MUCH better job, but need to do better. I think I have gone from trying to "fix" him for our marriage to survive to trying to fix him for the kids sake. Who am I kidding, the man is nuts, I can't fix him, and my trying only wears me out.
Shit, just had an ah ha moment. No wonder the kids exhaust me so much, they are exhausting in their own right, but once again I am exerting mental energy on HIM. And getting nothing but pure frustration in return.
Screw MC, I don't want to be married to him, that I am 100% sure of, so MC is will not help me and I need to stop trying to help him.

I cannot thank all of you enough for the help and insight I am getting here. I know am strong and will survive, but he clearly still has a grasp on me, frightening.


Me (bw): 30 something
exH NPD: 30 something
kids: preschool twins
d-day 4/09 (7 month EA/PA)
married 10 years
divorced and ready for 2011

It's not that I have trust issues, it's that you shouldn't trust some people!


Posts: 279 | Registered: Apr 2010
diditagn
♀ Member
Member # 3433
Default  Posted: 11:20 PM, June 16th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Cogal, I don't know you whole situation but, Ex and I did MC, it did help understand why things happened the way they did, and why I had the reactions I did to the whole situation.

It also helped me break free because once ex went from verbal/emotional abuse to physcial, the MC helped me realize that I needed to leave the situation.

He agreed to go because it helped his "image" it was there that he did receive a sociopathic narcissist diagnosis. That was also the day that he decided MC wasn't working. (go figure)

The one thing I have learned is that I loved the image that he portrayed himself to be. Some NPD's can get help, but it takes years of therapy. Sometimes MC only prolongs the ineveitable.


Happy people don't have the best things, they make the best with what they have.

Posts: 1556 | Registered: Feb 2004 | From: WI
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 11:36 PM, June 16th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

didit and Nicole: thank you so very much for those wonderful posts. There is a lot to reflect on.

As for MC, I agree with didit, it would help ME to understand things and have a reality check if someone else could really see WH for what he is. It would help make me feel stronger and more sure of my decision to leave.

I have a question after reading those wonderful posts. I was always content with WH acting sweet and loving because that bought him what he needed from me...all the adoration, etc. Sometimes, I feel now, that I was/am addicted to that sweetness which I know realize was superficial...Reading the list describing NPD, I wonder if in some ways I became needy with wanting his reassurances. Was this because this was all I was really getting from this relationship where I was being sucked dry????

Just rambling, but I don't know if this makes any sense.


Posts: 1903 | Registered: Jan 2010
Nicole5
♀ Member
Member # 17794
Default  Posted: 7:58 AM, June 17th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

honesttoafault: Ah....yes...I loved "charming guy" phases in the marriage. I believe that I spun a narrative about the marriage. An elaborate web of lies I told myself in order to get rid of the feeling that something was terribly wrong with this relationship. When he was sullen and withdrawn, and moody I called that "shy and needing private time". When he was dismissive and consistently chose to spend time with his friends over me and/or the kids, I called that "he works so hard during the week, and deserves this time with his friends (besides if his game goes well he will be in such a good mood when he gets home, maybe we can go out to dinner)"

I think you can see where I am going with this. "Charming guy" was the one persona that seemed to need no "extra" explanation (other than this self-talk to gut: See you are nuts. He loves you!")

didit: thanks for sharing from your files. Do you have anything else?

Cogal: It took me a few years before my heart and brain were in synch about the NPD. I needed time and lots of proving to myself that my narrative was faulty and needed to be re-written. NPD's lie. The #1 lie that I believed....the one that I believed without a shadow of a doubt....the lie upon which I wrote the narrative...was one of the first lies he ever told me. That lie is/was: I Love You, Nic.


divorced my WH on Nov 4, 2011
(see my profile for "the story")


Posts: 338 | Registered: Jan 2008 | From: TX
Nicole5
♀ Member
Member # 17794
Default  Posted: 11:27 AM, June 17th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

More about NPD and Love:

The crazy making conversations that I initiated a thousand times all hinged on my confusion about what he meant when he said he loved me.

I married very young. It never occurred to me to synch up our definitions of words such as: Love and Happiness.

When I asked him what he thought he was promising when he said the marriage vows, he said that he hadn't been to many weddings before ours and really doesn't remember what was said.

I kept hoping that eventually we would have a sane conversation with logical explanations as to how, when, and why we drifted, but that is not meant to be with an NPD.

Every conversation was akin to me slitting my wrists (metaphorically speaking.) After awhile it became apparent that it was harmful to me, on all levels, to continue to engage him.

Does he love me? Sure. In a poker player strategic way, he does. He loves the way that his image appears when his pretty, kind, loving, funny and successful wife and kids are at his side.

He loves to include me in a list of complaints about his unhappiness while he embarks on yet another *pity across america tour* (aka his search of new and gullible blood to feed from.)

My self-esteem was battered, but I reclaimed myself.

He is not able to love, but that doesn't stop me from loving me.

It is my wish for all of us: Love yourself and don't let anyone steal your joy!

Nicole


divorced my WH on Nov 4, 2011
(see my profile for "the story")


Posts: 338 | Registered: Jan 2008 | From: TX
lied2
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Member # 1807
Default  Posted: 8:36 PM, June 17th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

When I asked him what he thought he was promising when he said the marriage vows, he said that he hadn't been to many weddings before ours and really doesn't remember what was said.

Yup. My version of that was when we discussed the marriage vows he told me that he really didn't understand what he was agreeing to when he said them.

I think the worst part is that if you stay in a relationship like that for a good length of time they basically train you with their push and pull to give up who you are to keep them happy (ya right) so you are always working towards that content guy to come back. Over time he was seen less and less. Of course the content, happy, nice guy we thought we married was the real illusion and the miserable jerk face was the real person.

I find it seriously freaky to see my ex now and how he has cameleoned into his relationship with the wifetress. In many ways he has changed who he is again to fit with what he feels he needs to be to keep her supply.

Honesttoafault you asked

I wonder if in some ways I became needy with wanting his reassurances. Was this because this was all I was really getting from this relationship where I was being sucked dry????

I think it is 2 part. First the basically are unable to really connect with their partner in an emotionally intimate way so the partner feels the emptiness and starts looking for what the NPD can offer them. The one thing they can offer is reassurances, charm and ego stroking since the partner will usually stroke them back to some degree. So they slowly train you to stroke them back to get their need met often while slowly meeting fewer and fewer of your real needs. This can be a very slow process and in an effort to maintain the relationship we inately put ourselves second. On some level I would tell myself if I can help him solve his problems then he can then offer me what I need from the relationship. But that day never comes. They just take more and more and more until you are empty and crying foul. So rather than work on mending the relationship they just look for another one. My ex even acknowledged that it would take real hard work on his part to fix the relationship and it was just easier to move on with the wifetress. She met his need now.


The grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence. It is astro turf.

The essence of love is not what we think or do or provide for others, but how much we give of ourselves.


A clean house is the sign of a broken computer.


Posts: 8196 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Ontario, Canada
Cogal
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Member # 28314
Default  Posted: 10:00 PM, June 17th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Do others here have NPD's who cannot hold a job? stbx had 4 jobs in 4 years. He is in a healthcare job that is nearly impossible to get fired from, yet he got fired twice and left once when things got "difficult". He always had an excuse that made it seem like it was for the better, which it always was not.


Me (bw): 30 something
exH NPD: 30 something
kids: preschool twins
d-day 4/09 (7 month EA/PA)
married 10 years
divorced and ready for 2011

It's not that I have trust issues, it's that you shouldn't trust some people!


Posts: 279 | Registered: Apr 2010
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 7:39 AM, June 18th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Not being able to hold a job is a common story.
Except in my case. My pet never had a job!
(She obtained employment only after I had moved her out to live with her mother)

Excellent posts here! Thank you all so much!

If they don't get the blood supply/emotional content from you, they will seek elsewhere

And they will seek it elsewhere, as night follows day. Why?
Because their need is never-ending; a bottomless sucking black hole of constant need,

and you are the one who "runs out".

They empty you.
Her affair was a gift to me. It woke me up to the hollow shell I was becoming.

For a time, I lustily entertained the notion of MC, but only for the value it would bring me to have her evil and craziness exposed.
In the end, I had one session (privately) in which the therapist told me point blank to let her go. I asked him how did he know what I was telling him was true (why trust me/my side of the story?). He said he "just knew", and he'd been counseling for 15 years.
LOL!, iow; "Trust me, I'm a doctor." hahahaha!

What's sad is, lately her mother has been texting me (2X), asking for $$ help.
I have no animosity toward her mom, and she did help us when I was being used. She's just being drained too. More financial devastation in the narcissist's wake.
It is, it was inevitable. It's very hard to not help her, but I know I'd be enabling more financial sucking from her daughter. So no. No. Maybe later, when she's found another supply/victim.

Cogal's thread on D, where she's dealing with N abuse of the children stirred my "help" gene, heh, and I imagine...since I hope anyone with a Npet is leaving!...I imagine that the cycles of abuse with children is common -
I did some looking around and found this too:

Are you and your ex going through a difficult divorce or break up? Do you worry that she or he is turning your child(ren) against you? Are you shocked and confused by how your once warm and affectionate relationship with your kid(s) has become distant and hostile?
Parental alienation is no joke. It’s a form of child abuse. The custodial parent is usually the mother and it’s typically the custodial parent who engages in parental alienation. However, there are men who also engage in parental alienation.
Original research found women to be the perpetrators of this abusive behavior in 90% of reported cases. Recent research indicates both genders equally engage in parental alienation. It’s difficult to know the exact figures because of under-reporting, false accusations, and the positive bias toward mothers that’s rampant in most family courts.
Profile of Parental Alienation
Individuals who engage in parental alienation are like the mean kids in high school who demand that their friends be angry with whomever they’re angry with and hate whomever they hate. In children, this phenomenon is called relational aggression. Now she or he is a parent. They’re mad because your relationship ended—even if they’re the one who initiated the break-up.
Your ex requires, implicitly or explicitly, that your child(ren) feel and act the same way she or he does. The parent who engages in alienation tactics enlists your children to take on his or her battle against you. This is not the act of a responsible, mature adult, much less a responsible, loving parent. This is a bullying behavior called mobbing.
Bullying, Mobbing and Parental Alienation
Mobbing is usually written about in the context of workplace bullying, but that’s a limited use of the concept. It can occur in any kind of system, including a family system. Mobbing is the impassioned psychological harassment of one individual by a group. The attack is usually instigated and led by one or two people who are typically in a position of authority or a peer leader. The International Herald Tribune describes it as “group victimization of a single target” with the goal of demeaning, discrediting, alienating, excluding, humiliating, and isolating the targeted individual.
Mobbing ringleaders are bullies who try to dominate and control others in most situations and relationships. Namie and Namie (2000) describe them as, “inadequate, defective, and poorly developed people.” They’re generally angry, unpredictable, critical, jealous, and manipulative (Davenport, Schwartz and Elliot, 1999; Namie and Namie, 2000). The emotionally abusive bully who engages in mobbing (or parental alienation) revels in the excitement produced by their animosity. It produces a pleasurable buzz or rush in them. Westhues (2002) refers to this as “the euphoria of collective attack.” Sound familiar?
Parental Alienation and Personality Disorders
People that have no compunction about using their kids to hurt their exes seem to fit the profile of the emotionally abusive Cluster B personality disorders (Borderline Personality Disorder, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Antisocial Personality Disorder). These individuals play the professional victim as they emotionally bully anyone who confronts, challenges, or criticizes them. They don’t recognize appropriate boundaries, won’t accept personal responsibility for their actions—in fact, they blame you for the horrible things they do and always have an excuse to justify their indefensible behaviors.
If your ex is actively or passively alienating your child(ren)’s normal affection toward you, he or she was probably emotionally abusive while you were together. Parental alienation is her or his way of continuing to abuse and hurt you via remote access. Generally, most bullies don’t see themselves as such. If you confront your ex about this behavior, they’ll deny it and blame you for your deteriorating relationship with your child(ren), even as you make every effort to be a present and involved parent.
The only way to stop a bully is with the threat of a greater authority. Appealing to their “better nature” is futile. Emotionally abusive bullies don’t have a better nature. Attorneys and the courts will probably need to be involved as well as an UNBIASED children’s therapist and a lot of documentation. If you believe you’re the target of parental alienation, I encourage you to educate yourself about it and to know, protect and fight for your rights.


Posts: 6032 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
diditagn
♀ Member
Member # 3433
Default  Posted: 12:24 PM, June 18th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

thanks JJ,

Interesting, now that ex and ow are broken up, him and DS are "bonding". DS would have nothing to do with him when she was around. I thought I had been making progress with my son, but uunfortunatly he was just holding his anger in.

His dad and him are now comiserating with each other about how much they hate me.

Living with and being married to a NPD, for so long has really taken its toll on me. It is such an abusive cycle. And honestly they just don't see it and never will.

It has been such a long and grueling process, with two steps forward and three back...

What I have learned since I went back to IC is that I have to learn to not focus on him, he will never change and as a NPD gets older, they only get worse, their authority figures die off and honestly there is no one left to keep them in line or to fear.

DS has always been a bit like his dad, and I fear the reprecussions of ex feeding DS a bunch of crap. There is nothing I can do legaly now, ds is 20 I can only hope it is a temporary situation. I have a feeling it isn't.

This is so hard


Happy people don't have the best things, they make the best with what they have.

Posts: 1556 | Registered: Feb 2004 | From: WI
Nicole5
♀ Member
Member # 17794
Default  Posted: 5:45 PM, June 18th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Cogal--My NPD has difficulty holding a job for more than a few years.

Here's why:
--he lies
--he's not loyal
--he has no empathy so can't read co-workers
--needs quite a bit of positive strokes

They are the same 24/7. Where there are people there are problems for them.

Make sense?

at jj's "pet" name for his NPD!


divorced my WH on Nov 4, 2011
(see my profile for "the story")


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