make sure it can be enforced if need be. having them be accountable to someone else for the support minimizes the games they play to some degree and that is helpful.
Absolutely, that's another good point. As long as it's in the decree, it's enforceable, but you may want to put language in the decree saying he has to pay it through the attorney general's office, or whoever manages child support. Then they issue that payment to you. I have that language, and a wage withholding order, but my X didn't want to do that. He thought the wage withholding might make him look bad. So, I had an order signed by the judge, but agreed that he could make the payment directly to me, on the understanding that, on the first day he is late, the withholding order goes to his employer. If it starts to be a hassle to collect from him for other reasons, I'll just tell him to follow the decree, and make the payment into the state child support fund. I am hoping the fear of looking like a deadbeat dad to people at work, etc, will keep him making the payments on time, but we will see.
On the laughable side, after telling everyone I'm a crazy b*tch who trapped him into fatherhood, he told me last night he can't find someone else (although he's been flirting with, messing around with, and dating people since we separated and were trying to R), because you can't be in a relationship when you still have feelings for someone else. He did not see the parallels to his affairs.
i totally agree...we can be blamed for everything...even the economy..we possess so much power to influence ...?
A friend told me that in relationships sometimes you just have to stop rowing the boat and see if the other party picks up the oars and takes over. If not, then they really aren't in the boat with you.
My EXWH wasn't in the boat with me either. This really tickled me because when my SO and I started dating, he told me a story about his Grandfather...He said, "When my grandparents started dating my grandpa explained to my grandma that for a long time he felt like he was in a boat with one oar and he was rowing, but only going around in circles."
"But, since I've met you, I feel like I found my other oar."
Then, my SO (who is now my husband), asked me (this was years ago) "Will you be my other oar?" That was his lead in to ask me to move in with him.
It seems as though N's expect YOU to do all the work. They certainly seem to give "lip service" good enough to pacify their "victims"...or, rather, manipulate them. Lip service is only intent with NO action to back it up. My MIL told me that "some people write checks their a$$ can't cash". That was my EXWH....always agreeing to, or saying he would do something, and very rarely follow through.
As for custody it would be better to have more than 50% of the custody if you can manage it. If not it may eventually happen that he takes them less and less and then you can get it adjusted accordingly. They usually withdraw from the children as they get older and are not as easily manipulated and the kids act out and call them on their actions.
I wonder if this is a common occurrence among people with NPD? This is exactly my situation. My EXWH fought for 50/50 custody (he actually wanted FULL custody - NOPE, don't think so), but after a year or so (and according to my therapist, THIS would happen because she KNEW his personality-type after ONE meeting), his visitation became less and less. And, I'm sure our D calling him out on some of his actions is part of some of the reasons....I'm sure he will have all kinds of excuses ranging from blaming his wife, to blaming me for his lack of care & concern for our child. ::shrugs:: I don't really know....and I really don't care because our D is much better off without his influence in her life.
He's the joke and I can't take him anymore!!
My IC keeps telling that when you are in NPD's "circle" you shine and everything is wonderful, but if you are outside, you don't count, you don't exist.
That is how he reeled me in. I was down when I met him, he gave me compliments, etc etc. Now OW is in the circle.....
I feel like I'm an addict that is withdrawing from a drug. A drug that was harmful, even lethal. WH no longer gives me affirmation, I'm mourning the loss of the relationship I thought I had. I was willing to accept even the illusion, the superficiality of it.
STBX fought hard for 50/50. But I have started to see it trending away from that. It is gradual but I am noticing that STBX is not so rigid with "his time." I don't know the last time he had a full weekend with them.
He came over tonight so I could talk to him in person about using the kids. I explained how selfish it is to tell the kids anything other than reassurences that we love them and being seperated will be better in the end. Of course he says he "can't" lie to them, WTF. That he won't tell them things will be ok because he doesn't want this and he thinks we should be together. All I said is "once again, selfish, let them be kids"
I tried touching me, the balls that man has, I pushed his hand away and just said "its over".
Sooo, the OW's exH contacted me today. Said if I ever need to vent he's here for me, he knows how hard it is. Invited me for drinks (he owns several bars) and said we could "bitch, laugh and have a good time". While I think he is super nice, very smart and would be fun to bitch with, I am thinking it would just be misery loves company kind of thing. Or should I just see it as an opportunity to make a friend?
It's not that I have trust issues, it's that you shouldn't trust some people!
I was willing to accept even the illusion, the superficiality of it.
Wow! Thanks for posting that! I think I finally understand ALL the whys of my staying with him even after so many affairs. Thanks, Honest!
mommy...I'm sorry to say that he will eventually abandon them. It's very hard on the child(ren) when this happens. Once again, the N's leave it up to US to do damage control. If it's any help whatsoever, keeping my DD involved in many activities, nurturing her as BOTH parents, and having adults in my life who are really good examples - who also adore her and nurture her, too - has helped her A LOT. Be warned, though, he may blame you for his choices with visitation and his abandonment of his kids.
Cogal...that is precisely what has happened with my EXWH. As long as he didn't have a source for the N-Supply, he held on to our DD tightly...it WAS very messy and he was extremely rigid (that is really an understatement) with his visitation time with her...all the way down to the minutes.
When he met his gf (now wife), he used our DD to get "in" with the gf, but as our DD got to know the gf and started calling BOTH of them on their "lip service" and "actions", the visitation started trickling off and has been non-existent for nearly 3 years. He hasn't even laid eyes on his child in a year (except for the "coincidental" seeing her in traffic or in a restaurant). Oh...and my EXWH (at the beginning) berated me to our DD and also told her how much he missed me and loved me.
As for the OW's EXH, hmmmm...not sure on that one. Maybe making a new "friend" might be okay, but I suggest just treading very carefully on that front. (don't forget a big stick, just in case LOL).
In fact, during our "R", it got to the point where I think his least favorite words were, "if you think [whatever crazy thing he was saying/doing] is reasonable, why don't we sit down with a neutral third party and get their opinion" because he couldn't say okay because he knew no one would back the craziness he was spouting, but he couldn't say no without looking like an ass.
Since he is "so concerned" about what you are doing to the kids, could you suggest a meeting with a family counselor, to discuss what is in the kids' best interest going forward?
When he met his gf (now wife), he used our DD to get "in" with the gf, but as our DD got to know the gf and started calling BOTH of them on their "lip service" and "actions", the visitation started trickling off and has been non-existent for nearly 3 years
My ex has basically done the same thing with my kids. It sucks for them but I think it is for the best since his new dynamic with the wifetress is none to healthy and my kids don't need to see that.
The essence of love is not what we think or do or provide for others, but how much we give of ourselves.
A clean house is the sign of a broken computer.
My ex saw the kids perhaps twice last year and had not see the kids this yr other than a few hrs a few weeks ago with the oldest after bringing over lame gifts (lego for each boy) for their birthday and christmas gifts. They are 14 1/2 and 17 1/2 so lego is no longer on their 'wishlist'
So he dropped by tonight before I got home from work. He was talking to the youngest and was going on about how the boys are his biggest expense every month and how he he is not going to buy their love and affection. ( showing up more often than every 6months is a good start -idiot)
Oh and how he was so stressed out after I took him back to court to get the table amount support that he refused to pay he had to take 2 weeks off work to recover. I guess following the law is cause for him to need stress relief.
Amazing how they fool us so well, that I bought into his madness FULLY.
Of course with kids he keeps coming up with zingers and the kids buy them to some degree because he is their father and they want to believe him and receive love from him.
"why don't we sit down with a neutral third party and get their opinion"
But here's the thing...it's a quick way to find out what kind of wall you're banging your head against isn't it? I mean, how many here have done the destructive/hopeful dance of counseling with a narcissist?
Has it worked for anyone here?
I've only read where it results in more discombobulation...the therapist is snowed, or there's a whole new load of fictitious, hateful, damaging nonsense..ad nauseum! Counseling with a narcissist is like trying to pat a pack of rabid ravening dogs while wearing milk-bone underwear.
It's probably a good thing if the N storms out of there in a huff, when called on their lies.
Before I found SI, the thing she hated most to hear;
"I'm sorry you feel that way."
It became the verbal recipe for instant rage.
It is a wise saying - for 'normals' lol!
Kids. I had none with her, and I pray for you that do! It can be where an apple or two doesn't fall far from the N-tree. That's hard hard hard.
Counseling for children would have to be a requirement I suspect...at least for a chance to ameliorate some of the destructive effects. I believe, before N is "set" in a child - a child!...well, I guess I just have to believe there's a chance to get training in modifying behaviours...for a chance, for a child.
Mine consented to go... and would immediately report back to OW for "supply". Apparently she would tell him what a good man he was for trying so hard to make his marriage work.
[This message edited by luv2swim at 2:36 PM, June 13th (Sunday)]
So I bought stbx a dresser before he moved out, I was at the store already buying them beds and my dumb as told him him I could do this one favor. He texted me the model # and said he'd pay me back. Now here we are 2 months later and he still hasn't payed me.
I asked him again for this, money that came out of my accnt for paypal that he purchased and for 1/2 the 529 college money that comes out of my accnt.
This is the text I get:
"Classes for the kids are to be split evenly. College expenses are to be split evenly. Day care is to be split evenly. Produce receipts with dates. Lots of broken promises; I promised to be faithful, you promised to never leave. Here we are. I STILL don't want this and for you to be living in the house that we own and harassing me is crass and cold. This is ALL your choice. My fault, but your choice."
he's such a charmer that guy, why on earth do I not want him back, lol. Oh and the paypal purchase was for an antique cookie jar the kids broke because his dumbass put candy in it so obviously they tried to get some sneakily and shattered it. Now he is saying "i" broke it to purposely torture him!!! Dude, first off it's a fucking cookie jar, if I wanted to torture you I would key your car or something, secondly I am not the one who lies, if I said the kids broke it we all know I'm telling the truth. He's so damn crazy.
The 529 plans are under his name, but the money automatically comes out of my accnt. If he won't help me with 1/2 I really need to reduce the amnt, of course they won't talk to me because it's under his name, argghh.
[This message edited by Cogal at 3:23 PM, June 13th (Sunday)]
Same with paypal. Change the password and then he can't use the account to pay for stuff.
Time to stop the gravy train and let him pay for his own share since he clearly is not going to pay you back for the stuff without a fight.
Counceling with a N is a total waste of time.
As for counseling, oy. Before it became really clear just how horrible my ex was, we went to MC. Also before D-Day. For our first appointment, he planned to borrowed the OW's car. I have no clue where he told her he was going. I actually cherish my memories of MC, personally, because it became so darn funny. But engaging in active, meaningful progress, oh hell no.
I suggest a counselor only because Cogal's NPD will not want to come off the way he is coming off to her. It's why I had a third party present for our divorce negotiations--he was so conscious of what that person think that it went much better than if we had done it alone. And if and when he started to reneg on what he had said, I had someone I could call in to testify at court.
1) Pathalogical lying
2) Pitting people against each other.
3) Blame shifting.
Very interesting read. It's always shocking to me to see the similarities in the way NPD's speak. It's almost word for word in the way they verbally abuse their victims. I remember mine saying almost ALL of these same things to me.
Husband to wife: You think you have friends?! Our friends are courteous people. They don't tell you how ridiculous they think you are, but they tell each other...and I've overheard comments. You don't have any friends; just people who feel sorry for your ignorance. People merely tolerate you out of a sense of kindness and feeling sorry for your pitiful appearance and your ridiculous ideas.
Except mine would go further and say, "You think you have friends? Our friend are decent courteous people. They don't tell you how they really feel, but they tell each other and they tell ME. They only hang around because of ME. They feel sorry for ME, that I have to put up with YOU.
Ugh. It went on and on.
It went so far that when he was deep, deep into his affairs and I KNEW it, he blame shifted the whole mess on me and accused me of having a paranoia disorder and claimed that I was the one distroying our marriage by wrongfully accusing him of cheating. He demanded that I see a psychiatrist and get help or HE was divorcing ME.
So I went, had myself put on all sorts of meds, even went as far as listening to him say that maybe I was bi-polar because of my "mood swings" and my "anger problems".
OMG! I get pissed just thinking about it!!
He only bothered to come to one of two of the MC sessions that were suggested to "help" with this supposed "destruction of marriage" but in his mind since I was the one destroying the marriage I was the only one who needed to be there. I kept going like an idiot thinking I could single handedly save someting that never existed.
What a PUKE! Talk about NOTHING being his fault.
And speaking of the "other oar" that fits in my situation too. When I was working, brining in the "big bucks", looking good, providing him with whatever things were find. But when I got laid off my job during the Dot-Bomb era, do you think he would stick his oar in the water to help pick up the slack? Hell NO!!
They are all so cut from the same cloth it's frightning.
When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
OC born 2001
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)