uk girl, solost and lost heart thatnk you so much for all your words and hugs, all were and are deeply felt....
solost, you have so much on your plate, between his illness and his disconnect....much (((HUGS)))
lostheart2... would love to tell you to forget that picture...but i know that would be futile...but you need to put it away where it can't hurt you....i know much easier said then done...but i am learning the hard way almost everything we all are learning is easie said then done....in the words of the esteemed gloria gaynor (i think it was her)...."I WILL SURVIVE" you came through your childhood, you will come through this too!!!
whimsy...what little i know of your sich...my heart goes out to you, dealing with an oc must be really rough.....
ukgirl...how are you feeling these days....
dhac....hopefully you faring well.....
I saw a pic of ow about 3-4 months ago I guess. It rocked me to my core. She's pretty, thin. Nothing earth shattering, but it didn't matter. And then he called her 'hot' to some buddies on line. In the context of "I made a mistake, she was hot adn I went for it and shouldn't have". It didn't matter. That word stuck with me for weeks. No one would call me that. The picture has stuck with me. But it does get a bit easier, a bit less stinging...not totally though. I'm so sorry for all your pain.
I Have thought more than once int he past few days how much I woudl like to start over. I want to fall in love, I want to build a healthy, trusting, loving relationship. I want to have someone adore me and think about me and want to do things with me. that is not my current life. Maybe things woudl be better to divorce and move on. Then BAM. Kids in the car today start talking about divorce. They each have a friend whose parents are divorced. How they woudl hate it, their friends are always confused about which house they are going to be at, they leave stuff at one house and can't get it, etc. Divorce would not be that simple fairy tale. And who knows if the white prince would ever even come. But I wish I felt like I deserved it.
I have called 911 about 25-30 times in my 12 year marriage. It is sadly a part of my life. H is taking better care of himself now, although not perfectly. Most calls were during the affair, when stress for him took it's toll on his body. His therapist says he shoudl be the poster boy for how stress from an affair can affect your health. Every morning I wake up aroud 4-5 am and check on H. Make sure he is breathing. It is a stressful part of my day, but a necessary one. Otherwise I let me kids father die. I could never live with that guilt and really pray I don't have to.
I'm off to read that article on porn. It is such a hard subject. I fee like a whiny, ridiculous person "Why don't you want to have sex with me? We never have sex, you woudl ratehr look at ponr wah wah". God, I want him to want me, I don't want to have to talk him in to it.
Wimsey, could you not tell them one at a time when the moment seems right? And ask them to not forge ahead and tell their siblings until you have had a chance to tell them first? Maybe when H is due to visit the child, or when he comes home. The childís birthday, or if OW and the child should move. Unless you agree that this skeleton should remain in the closet (only for the OC to turn up on the doorstep or for future generations to find), surely sooner is better? I can only say again, I think you are a star of a woman.
Miracle, let us know how the whole workshop went. And as to your partnerís story, why am I not surprised?!
SoL, one of my kids actually thought he was deprived by having parents who were still together (H had just become WH when DS3 went through this stage). He wanted the two holidays, two Christmases, two lots of ďstuffĒ, one for each home, and to be the centre of attention between his bickering parents. Over the next couple of years, he realised that many of his friends whose parents were Díd had no say in where they staying, where they went in the holidays or who with, constantly making sure they had all the right stuff for when they went to Dadís. They didnít have the freedom to just spend time hanging out with their friends on a weekend.
I told my H I was jealous of what he and MOW had. He misunderstood me, I didnít want what SHE had, I wanted something of my own. I want to experience that headiness, the secrecy, the ducking and diving, the furtive texting and calling, the adrenalin rush of meeting someone, the anticipation of the night ahead after dinner in a hotel, etc, etc. Just for a short while to say Iíve had it too. There is one guy who is trying to hook up with me after meeting me a year ago at a party. Heís very nice and, best of all, nothing to do with anyone I know. He doesnít even live nearby. But, Iíd be all guilt ridden and Iím a hopeless liar. Doesnít stop me wanting it though. Part revenge, part a desire to be wanted by some one else.
What did you think about the Naomi Wolf article?
I thought the article was good. I am trying to really pray adn think things out before I confront about this. I think I need to be ready to follow through on my consequences and also to deal with whatever his reaction is. I can't do it all emotional. I want/need to be in control.
Read the "...wants to be OW" thread awhile back and shared some of the thoughts there with my WH. Told him I would never want to be her: meeting in parking lots, quickie bjs in the spare room, etc. What I would like to experience is that heady feeling that someone is willing to risk EVERYTHING to be with me. Sadly, one can never experience that in a marriage - only in an affair. And I'm not willing to go there.
Gotta go. Hang in there tribe!
WS-59: LTA (22+ years)
MOW-54: H's old girlfriend
D-day 08/11/08 (3 days before 25th anniversary)
Working hard on R
Sorry I have been MIA. H is back from Asia and we did have an "incident". The last few days have been really tough. I wish he could quit his job and not have to go there anymore but it just isn't an option. Especially in this economy having a position like he does is not something to let go.
The "incident": he was in China meeting with very important clients. Unfortunately, in Asia if a client wants to go to a gentleman's club, karaoke club, hostess club, what have you, as the "guest" you cannot say "NO". So H was taken (and he saying not very willingly but I am asking him to examine that further) to a karaoke bar where the executives would sit in a large private room. When they were all settled, a group of women come in and each is asked to pick one to be their hostess for the night.
Okay, so we are so fucking far over every boundary already you can see how I am losing it. Good news, nothing happened (at least he says). They were all in the room together (10 - 15 men + "hostesses). This is a "high end" club so not flat out prostitutes but probably negotiable. But here is the killer - he was drinking. He cannot, CANNOT, drink and hold any boundaries at all.
He called as soon as he got home, told me the whole story and I was devastated. Then I had to wait 48 hours for him to fly home to talk about it in person. What sucks is that he was "proud of himself" for being in that position and not "doing anything". I was fucking furious that he allowed himself to get into that position in the first place. You know, slippery slope, etc.
So after 2+ days of fighting, crying, apologies, etc. I think he gets it but I don't know what to do about his job. His travel to meet clients is an integral part of his position and some of the largest clients are in Asia. Why is this acceptable there? WTF?
I guess I need to look at the bright side that he called immediately and told me everything and he could have hid it all. I never would have known. It just hurts so badly as this is the type of behavior that led to ONS/pros in the past.
Sorry to be such a bummer....
(((fading memories))much sympathy...life just really sucks sometimes....
uk: my workshop was definitely an experience...it was amazing, joyful, sad and unbelievably emotionally draining....on the last morning 3 quarters of the people, appx 200 people, were all balling...of course me included....only tonite am i starting to come out of that funk...but it was truly worth it on so many levels.....on sat van praagh gave us a quote that came to him in a dream...it was a thought provoker,
"PERCEPTION + INTENTION = ACTUALITY"....lately i've been picking up quite alot of quotes to ponder......pondering is so much better than wallowing.....
((((HUGS))) to the rest of this "tribe"
dhac: hope you are doing well on your "vacation"
Sadly, one can never experience that in a marriage - only in an affair.
Which takes me to
"PERCEPTION + INTENTION = ACTUALITY"...
Iím glad you went off and did what you wanted to do for a few days. And how was Mr Miracle when you got home? I gather he was missing you somewhat.
Shirley, You have to understand the different cultures within Asia. This is the normal way of life for them. The bigger the deal, the more expensive the ďentertainmentĒ. If EO was there to pull the deals (whether buyer or supplier), he HAD to go along with it. They would be mightily offended if he didnít. Yes, there are ďnegotiableĒ hostesses. Some Western guys go OTT out there, rubbing their hands in glee that they are the ones getting to go. The place where is stops, and should stop, is at the ďextrasĒ. This only gives the individuals and companies hosting these jollies the upper hand. It becomes very dangerous territory. If EO didnít go along for the evening entertainment, he could be blanked next time (and maybe lose his job if he really offends them by telling them this is not the way to do business). On the other hand, if he goes along and gets carried away like the kid in the sweetie shop and taking everything on offer, then he could upset his employers (and his wife!!!!!) and lose his job.
FWH has not been to China (well he did and got his passport stamped ďrefusedĒ at the border, so until he gets a new one heíll never be allowed in! ), but he has been to other countries. Korea, Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore all have the same culture. The men work hard and play hard and that includes going out on business in the evening. The wives are not included, they stay at home looking after the 1.2 children, making sure their husbands shirts are pressed, the house is clean and if he wants something to eat at 4am when he gets in, she will get out of bed and do it for him. Thatís how is just is.
If EO is at risk, he should find some fictitious health reason for not doing long haul travel. Otherwise, I am afraid, you will just have to grit your teeth and put the onus on him to do the right thing by you and not overstep the mark. The Asians do understand that there is this point at which Westerners are not comfortable. And most Westerners do understand the concept of an Asian honey trap.
But yes, it's a bummer.
[This message edited by UKgirl at 10:20 AM, April 8th (Wednesday)]
when d-day happended he was told by me that i need full disclosure and a timeline...since i've gotten many timelines, all have conflicting info, not one timeline from beginning to end for any of his other women with the full truth, tonite he is ready to hand me over 8 pages of wrtings, so isaked him, is it the full unvarnished truthful timeline...he said "no" so i told him to keep it...i just don't see the point, its not worth getting all upset...we are fast approaching 4 months and i "require" total truth, without it i'm not even going to bother......i will no longer settle the way i did all these years, everything was put before me....i just didn't know how many people were ahead of me on that line....well right now i feel like they could have him...he doesn't deserve me.....
i had ic last nite....she is proud of my progress..that i went to the workshop and that i am taking positive steps as opposed to sitting back and letting things happen....i told her how i keep reading all these books to give me persepective, hope and faith in myself above all......i am not making any decisions yet about my marriage and nor do i intend to until i am sure that i will have no regrets......but i do no that while he remains a liar there will not even be a consideration of trying to reconcile.......of that i am so certain...i've settled for less for this entire relationship, lost a part of myself and swallowed more shit then a public toilet.....
NO MORE....I DESERVE BETTER AND WILL ATAIN BETTER....
as always thanks for listening to my rantings......it truly is cathartic.....
god bless this site and all who post...
Each one of us has a different tale to tell, some straight forward (like mine), some horribly complicated. Some have remorseful spouses, some have Sís who pull up the drawbridge or are simply in denial at what they have done.
What you have experienced is not unusual in that as soon as you completed the 180 (see healing library) and found a boyfriend, he decided to be the kid who doesnít want to give his toy up. Weíve all seen it. The toys that are abandoned and viewed with distain as being baby toys are suddenly the very favourite thing when we want to give them away. Itís just the same with finally losing the last thread in a marriage. You were going to take something from him (you) and give it to someone else more appropriate (deserving) and he wanted you back. Pretty simple psychology.
The main points for you to realise is that you DO have the right to talk about his affair. He abandoned you and you filed for D. At that point, he had NO RIGHT to get pissy about who you were seeing or what you were doing, as long as it didnít impinge on your abilities as a mother to his children. He instigated your need to find a new life. It was not your choice and there was no discussion. What were you supposed to do? Lay down and die? You can tell him that the door was always open and it was only as the lock was about to click shut that he wanted back into the marriage again.
Get into MC asap if you can afford it. And IC for you to get your head around this and to find the strength you DO still have within. You have coped on your own and you donít really need him. You want him, you may love him, but you know you can survive without him. Make this very clear to him.
You got yourself a good job, how come you lost it, if you donít mind me asking?
I have to run (piano for DS4), but will check in later. Big hugs to you hon. Someone else will drop in and offer some more advice soon, Iím sure. (((((emeraldeyes)))))
I have made every mistake under the sun with regards to how I have handled it...all I can say is that I still love him and thought I was trying to fight for my marraige...
OW is D so I am not able to expose to her EXH. We all work for the same co-they work nights and I work days. I have exposed to our HR dept but they can not do anything as they work for different depts/different supervisers and work in different buildings..since it doesn't affect their job and they are doing this during non-working hours they can not do anything..I have exposed to his family--they love him but do not condone his actions and have told him so..I have begged, pleaded--only to be told he'll end it and then I am going thru a false recovery and another D-Day...
I have consulted a lawyer and I can D however the economy is what is keeping me here..Not in a position to sell the house and neither one of us can afford to move on our own while still trying to pay all the bills as well as the house...
I found out her saw her on Monday and now I am 180'ing big time--no marriage perks at all..there is alot of tension but no talking as I guess he is upset that I am not doing anything for him and not talking to him either...I have said all of 12 words in 3 days which involved our youngest son...
Has anyone been in the situation of still living with their H while the A is still going on? How did you cope? I think he might be with her today and this is really killing me..Please help!
emeraldeyes: on the suicide thing, please do not even consider this an option, we have all felt like crawling under the covers and never coming out, but suicide is truly not an option...if not for you, your kids, you family and friends....suicide leaves behind a lifetime of pain...and i speak from experience...pm if u need to talk, or post here often
gotta go, someone at the door
[This message edited by iwantamiracle at 2:26 PM, April 9th (Thursday)]
emeraldeyes, get back on the job looking for another job. Please do the 180 again and find your self esteem. He wants to control you and you need to inform him that you are not the same person and your marriage is not the same as before either. You have stood on your own two feet and proved you CAN do it without him. Take a few steps back, some deep breaths and draw on your inner strength. He can walk by your side or take his own path. Please do not pander to him, you will be the loser and he will have the upper hand. This is about taking his toys back. You are not his toy.
Weíve all had days when we donít want to wake up, let alone get out of bed. Hugs to you hon.
LfL, if OW is now Díd, why not take his day to day essential stuff and take them round to her place, dumping them on the doorstep if sheís at work. Or take them to work, labelling them up for her to take home. I would make it very clear (at least I hope I would) that if he wants to carry on the A, then she should have him all the time, not pick and choose when it suits her. If she doesnít want him, then he should go and sleep at a friendís for now. You do NOT have to put up with this. Honestly, if he can carry on sitting on the fence, cake-eating, then he can find out what being out of the family home is like.
Way back when my WH first confessed and I scooted round to his bfís house (who didnít know), one of the things I asked of his bf was to give him a bed for a while if I kicked him out. Of course he said yes. I asked again three or four times over the next 12mths. I know I could have asked two or three of his other friends to give him a roof for a while. And I like to think that as MOW was pestering for fucking months after dday, that I would have sent his stuff round to her place, which would have given her BH something to think about.
There is always somewhere for them to go. How about if your place was (heaven forbid) burned to the ground Ė who would put you up for a couple of months? Really, if shove came to push, heíd find somewhere. So push.
Meanwhile, I still havenít taken FWH to task over the business of who he was fucking in 1999 before the hook up with MOW. Or the suspected A in Ď92/93. Guess heís going to keep that all in the box and never tell. But it eats away at me. And Iíve had a set back with the surgery, which leaves me in a worse place than before. Friends, the ILís and FWH say I look great, but I can do without the five steps forward and three steps back. I just want to be the person I was pre-A, kwim? I hate that he is seeing me like this. Iím a mess.
Logging out. Check in tomorrow. Love my Tribe.
If I moved out, I can afford a place but he couldn't afford the bills/house--then mortgage co would be come looking for me as I am also on the loan for the house--can't afford to help him out with the payment if I move...
So basically staying due to finances right now--anyone else in this situation?
Emerald - UKG nailed it. He wants to control you and will do whatever it takes to keep you under his control. Once he saw you slipping away - BAM! - he is back in the picture. However, I have to say from what you have said, he is not remorseful at all. He made all the right sounds to get back in but is not owning his shit. Has he gone to IC to understand why he did what he did? Are you two in MC? The fact that he won't answer questions and is throwing your boyfriend in your face is a big red flag. Also, what kind of selfish asshole works overtime to make someone lose a job - especially in this economy. JMO but I think you need to go serious 180 on him. Find a job. Determine your boundaries and what HE MUST DO to even be allowed to work on R. If he balks, kick him to the curb.
LookingforLove - I have not been in your situation so no direct advice other than to say that he has learned that there really aren't any ramifications to his actions. Until there are, he will continue to do whatever he wants. If you absolutely must stay in the same home due to finances, I would try to make it as close to roomates without benefits as possible. You should have your own bedroom, you only cook for yourself, you only clean the areas you use, he cannot eat your food, don't do his laundry, etc. Treat him like a stranger that is renting a room....keep a safe distance.
Hey UKG - thanks for the support on the Asian situation. It sucks yes but unfortunately part of doing business in that part of the world. EO did talk to his country manager there yesterday and told him he would rather not be asked to go to these type of places. He said, if the client insists, he would agree but would not agree to have a hostess himself. Please let him be telling the truth.
ETA: UKG I just read the part about the setback. I hope it isn't serious. Do you have to have more surgery or is it something that time will fix?
[This message edited by hurtshirley at 4:13 PM, April 9th (Thursday)]
If you really cannot afford for him to move out, even temporarily, make him sleep in another room on a put-u-up. Borrow one if you canít afford to buy one. He must be a lodger; buy and cook his own food (give him a mini-fridge), clear up his own mess, do his laundry and ironing. If you have joint accounts, the only thing you need to communicate about is what you are spending and how much.
I think he might be with her today and this is really killing me..Please help!
shirley, I would hope your H knows of the honey traps. It gives leverage and power outside of the normal business negotiations and the Asians view that as part of the negotiation. He would be extremely fucking stupid if he did take up the offer of a hostessís private company. The only thing would be if he did get drunk enough to accept and, again, that is another part of the arsenal that the Westerner has to be wary of. Every man knows his limits, and the shrewd practiced businessman will stay well under it. If he still has a drink in front of him, he can refuse another. Drink bottled (sealed) water or ask for tea (which should be made in front of him). ďthese type of placesĒ are no more than going to a bar or restaurant or to the races after work and are viewed as the norm. As I said, he has to know the polite point at which he can smile, put his hands up and say ďthanks, but no thanksĒ. Knowing what the consequences could be should be enough of a deterrent.
The setback re my surgery is that when I went for my 6wk check a couple of weeks ago, the surgeon said the compression bras could go and to wear whatever I liked. Sometime in the last week, I noticed one breast lower (about an inch) and bigger than the other, so being Mrs Sensible, I took a photo, attached it to an email and sent it off. His senior nurse rang me and said to wear an underwired, full cup bra with wide straps and to wear the band tight and hoik up the shoulder strap on the side with the lower breast. She said it was probably that the swelling hadnít gone down as much and that was causing the difference. Which the woman at the lingerie shop said too. So Iíve been fretting about that. Keep wondering how much it will drop or if the smaller one is leaking silicone. I know thatís just me being paranoid! And the pigging little bits of stitches that keep coming through the skin on the facial scars. Tiny, tiny crystal bits that are pin prick sharp. So, nothing major. The surgeonís going to ring me towards the end of next week. Itíll be fine, Iím sure......
Sometime in the last week, I noticed one breast lower (about an inch) and bigger than the other,
sorry I am laughing but one of mine is larger and lower...I think cause I favored one side breastfeeding. Shit, I didn't even have to have surgery to make that happen. I am glad it in nothing more serious!