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User Topic: BS Questions for WS's II
capri
♀ Member
Member # 14940
Default  Posted: 9:28 AM, April 24th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

A second question, and I want to say in advance how much I appreciate all the WSs who take the time to help us in this thread. I think it takes a great deal of character and moral strength to come back and help us through it.

I desperately need feedback, help, advice, something, on dealing with fwh's double standards.

He had what he says were strictly platonic ea's, (although he refuses to call them a's of any sort). One lasted most of our marriage, one a couple of years, several others that aren't even worth going into. He talked to them on a very personal, deep friendship level, including complaining about me and our marriage, and lied to me about it.

Time after time, he freely admits he'd be very upset if I did the same exact things he admits to. He admitted recently he doesn't know if he could get over it.

And then he goes right back to saying the real problem is that I'm assuming there was more; that places like si are convincing me this is really bad.

How can he rationally say this, that it would be awful if I did it, but I'm making too big a deal of it when he does? What is the best way for me to deal with this?


Me: free of the secrets and lies!!!
Divorced 10/2011

Posts: 4483 | Registered: Jun 2007
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 9:32 AM, April 24th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

NeedingGodsHelp -

From a WS persepctive, is there any hope for R at any point in the future?

As long as contact with the OP remains and the fog remains in full force, there is not much chance of R happening. Doesn't mean it can't. But it's not likely.

One word of caution. No matter how you feel about the OP, it's a bad idea to shut off access to the kids by the Father for the purpose of keeping the OP from seeing them. Your anger and issue with the OP will end up keeping a Father from being involved in the lives of his kids. Kids need Dads in their lives - even ones that have issues. Consider carefully the need for the kids to have their Dad involved before letting the spite toward either him or OP get in the way.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 9:35 AM, April 24th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

luvs80smusic -

How do you as a WS handle this from your BS?

It's tough, especially if the FWS is fully remorseful. It can be seen as doing everything possible to save the M but it still not being enough.

Just continue to be open and honest about how you are feeling and share what you need in order to heal. If possible, make a bit of an extra effort to acknowledge when your FWS is doing "the right things" so that they know the effort they are putting in should be continued.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 9:44 AM, April 24th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

capri -

Is it likely I'll eventually find there was some physical aspect, some cybersex, something of the sort? Or is there someone out there who can explain why a man would go to such lengths, for most of his marriage, to keep someone just to talk to?

It depends on the missing internal need within the WS. If what was needed was external validation, feeding a KISA syndrome (damsel in distress), or some other lack of social maturity then a "platonic EA" could possibly meet what the WS was looking for.

In the end you need to determine whether finding information about it being more "sensual" (cyber, phone, etc.) would change the course you need to take. For the WS, the healing path is still the same. NC, IC to strengthen their own self image, total transparency and honesty.

How can he rationally say this, that it would be awful if I did it, but I'm making too big a deal of it when he does? What is the best way for me to deal with this?

You have to decide at what point the clinging to finding specifics hurts you more than it hurts him. The bigger question to answer is what actions has he undertaken to address the problem. Has he worked in IC to determine why he turned to others instead of talking with you about what he wasn't happy with? About why he lied to you about it?

I think if the focus shifts from attacks on "was it sexual or not" to "what are you going to do to allow yourself to turn to me when you are hurting or upset" the result might improve as well.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
the fsc
♂ Member
Member # 23028
Default  Posted: 10:40 AM, April 24th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jade...

I married a hot-tempered Irish Redhead. Her personality was no mystery to me when I did so, and I'm sure your WH knew who you were before you got married.

Me and RR have a little yin/yang going in that respect. My first reaction when things get heated is to go into lock-down mode.

We both recognize that each of us needs to work on our own issues. I have to avoid battoning down the hatches so quickly, and she needs to take a few deep breaths and give me time to respond.

It's never easy to R...it takes hard work on both sides, and it's going to put people outside their comfort zone. The hardest thing I ever had to do in my life was to talk to each of RR's parents individually about what I did...and how I failed RR and them (up til D-Day, I considered myself #1 SIL).

Bottom line? He needs to man-up...and you need to hear him out. Can you do that?

BUT!...and a big BUT!...it bothers me that he wants R, but is still seeing OW? That dog don't hunt. NC means NC. No R can start until NC and transparency is there.

[This message edited by the fsc at 10:42 AM, April 24th (Friday)]


WH - (45) Me
BS - (44) Her (Redrock)

D Day 3/23/2008
Easter


Posts: 165 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Michigan
the fsc
♂ Member
Member # 23028
Default  Posted: 10:50 AM, April 24th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

capri...

Boundary issue...he needs to understand that there is a boundary issue. If he doesn't understand your boundaries...then MAKE him.

Not too long ago, my BS let me go to a charity event that I had used a year ago as an excuse to see OW. It was extremely difficult for her to let me go, even though several of her good friends were going to be there with me. We texted throughout the night, but one of my texts crossed a boundary with her, and she let me know. I appologized for it, and we worked through it. Lay down your boundaries...if he's truly willing to R, then he needs to stay within.


WH - (45) Me
BS - (44) Her (Redrock)

D Day 3/23/2008
Easter


Posts: 165 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Michigan
letting_go
Member
Member # 13774
Default  Posted: 11:08 AM, April 24th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Questions

At what point did you realize that being nice to your BS was not enough in helping them heal?

At what point did you realize that you had to work on yourself internally?


"To change and to improve are two different things."
Anonymous. German proverb.

"It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men." Frederick Douglass (1818-1895)


Posts: 3704 | Registered: Feb 2007
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 11:42 AM, April 24th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jade -

Is this something any WS went through - being afraid, including being rejected? I say, grow a set and quit the BS.

I can soooo relate to this. I was raised in an environment where conflict was to be avoided at all costs. Lay low, don't make waves, the whole thing. Then add in a low opinion of myself (and my opinions) and you get this recipe.

You see, if your tone with him is similar to this statement, he's going to hide. He's probably already got it stuck in his head that no matter what he says to you and no matter how he tells you what he is feeling, he's gonna lose that battle to a stronger personality. So the fear kicks in and he avoids the confrontation rather than lose.

Whatever the male stereotype is - that guys shouldn't cry or that they should be strong enough to handle taking an emotional beating - it's all crap. Punch me and it will hurt me, but tell me I'm a whus and a loser and that I am not worth your breath and it would crush me. Especially in light of an A and having zero ground to stand on to begin with.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Jade1964dream
♀ Member
Member # 21362
Default  Posted: 12:49 PM, April 24th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

fsc and lc; thank you both for responding. STBXH also grew up in the 'lay-low' enviroment - his father used to physically and emotionally beat him and his brother. And I can be pretty sharp with words. My family and friends have told me the same thing; listen to what he's telling you. I think he's in the mode of, rather not fight, continue with OW, than lose a battle with me.

fsc; the honeymoon seems to be on it's way out with OW, but because he is pretty weak about being alone, needing external validation - why would he let her go?? No two ways about it - if he ever approached me for a reconcilation, she better be long gone, and he better be prepared to tell her formally. Funny you mentioned #1SIL, my parents treated my WH like their son, and my mother always told him he is #1SIL. On an up note, other BIL is now #SIL.

BUT, big BUT, heck, he's the one that dealt the straw. I would listen to him, but he's got to come forward. I will not make the first move. Afraid or not, if he wants it bad enough, he will make the move - right? You both did....

Thanks again for your responses, I really appreciate you taking time and sharing your thoughts and experiences.

Jade

[This message edited by Jade1964dream at 12:59 PM, April 24th (Friday)]


Jadie

Posts: 588 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: Paradise
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 1:00 PM, April 24th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I would listen to him, but he's got to come forward. I will not make the first move.

Is he in IC? Are you both in MC? Can you tell him - even if briefly or impersonally in email - that he needs to make the first move?

I have to admit that my H has been doing most of the support so far. I know the WS is supposed to put aside their own hurt and help the BS, but some of us (stupid people like me) are incapable. So my H has been stepping up. (I know I don't deserve him.)

My point is... your H may need the extra support, even if it is in the form of "you HAVE to talk to me about this" and "I will be here for you to talk to, but not forever".


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 1:05 PM, April 24th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jade -

BUT, big BUT, heck, he's the one that dealt the straw. I would listen to him, but he's got to come forward. I will not make the first move. Afraid or not, if he wants it bad enough, he will make the move - right? You both did....

An interesting thought process. I don't mean to minimize this in any way, but all I can picture reading your words are Heat Miser and Snow Miser in "Year Without a Santa Claus":

Snowy: "I won't do it!"

Heat: "Me neither!"

Unfortunately, in situations with this much pain, there's no "Mother Nature" to intervene.

In essence, I'm wondering if there is a way you can create an open environment for your WH to feel that you are approachable without it appearing that you are pursuing him. A way his actions could define whether or not he's serious about correcting things.

For me, I would think something like setting up a meeting with an MC and letting him know the date and time would be a start. If he seriously wants to patch things up, he can show up in an environment where there's a third party who can help ensure that he can open himself up and at least be heard.

If he shows up, then he's serious about fixing things and was just held back by his own fear. If not, his words were just that....only words.

Just a thought....


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Jade1964dream
♀ Member
Member # 21362
Default  Posted: 1:28 PM, April 24th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

US, thanks for writing. he is not in IC, nor are we in MC. we are in 'no talk' mode, and I'd have to say, led by me. I'm pretty stubborn.

LC, I guess what I'm saying is, like fsc said, he's still seeing OW (although he tells everyone, she's just there). There's something very wrong with that weakness picture. He needs to grow up, I can't keep doing it for him. Worse, I don't want to live the rest of our lives together coddling him. His mother always said she loved him (she passed in August 07 and a few months after that is when he started with OW), but my observation is that although she said that, in the heat of the beatings he received from his father, she would say (per WH) I'm sorry I couldn't help you, I'm afraid he'll hurt me too. Not to be judgemental of the era she lived in, but if it were me, he'd be long dead before he beat my child again. So these are the issues he has to work through in IC. I feel as if I were to make the move, the real hard work he has to do, which is to get to the bottom of his issues, never mind reconciliation, will not be done.

I want to be his partner, wife, friend, lover; not his mother. I would love him, but not treat him as a child.
I did tell his coworker that if she wants to say anything to him about our discussion, she could tell him he needs counseling. In the beginning of all this, he was in IC, but he lied to the counselor about OW - maybe someday he'll realize that's now how you work in IC, and prepare to tell the truth. Even what I mentioned about his mother, he doesn't see as an issue - at least that's what's on the surface...

Anyway, too much introspection. He needs to do the work of learning about himself. I told him I'd be there for him in the beginning, but he chose OW instead because she was easy.

LC, I loved that analogy 'Year without Santa Clause' That's us alright. But I do take to heart what you said about setting up an MC session. I'll think about it, but yet I feel like I need to see more signs that he wants to reconcile.

[This message edited by Jade1964dream at 2:42 PM, April 24th (Friday)]


Jadie

Posts: 588 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: Paradise
fyrepixie15
♀ Member
Member # 20815
Default  Posted: 3:35 PM, April 26th (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Is there hope for a FWS and our M if after 9 months of trying to R he says...

"I can't cope with or deal with seeing the pain I have caused"

"I don't know how to get the feelings back that I used to have for you and us"

"I don't know how I can say I love you and do the things we do and still not be able to buy a card that says I love you.

"Part of me doesn't want to try anymore because the hurt and the pain is too much."


Me 39
H 39
Married 14 yrs
DD 20
DS 18
D-Day 8/11/08
in IC, both of us


"You change for two reasons: Either you learn enough that you want to, or you've been hurt enough that you have to."


Posts: 1710 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: Florida
nlovemyfamily
♀ Member
Member # 15258
Default  Posted: 6:56 AM, April 27th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

can anyone address how the WS who realizes the error of their ways, restores the trust, respect and real love of their adult children? I see my WS defeatist attitude standing in the way for his relationship with his children to be healed and restored. He states he can't undo what he has done. Any wisdom out there for me???

Posts: 415 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: nj
Forgive/Forget
♀ Member
Member # 23402
Default  Posted: 8:13 AM, April 27th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Did your affair lead to OC?

My husband had a 3 month affair that has let to an OC. We have not had paternity done on this child, and have had NC with OW since the birth. We have worked very hard over the past year on our marriage, but I still feel uneasy. I have a fear that one day this will hit him and he will want to be a part of this childs life. I could not live with that.

Do you think it is possible to honestly block out the fact that you could have a child out there?


"Know that the pain will pass, and when it passes, you will be stronger, happier and more sensitive and aware"

Posts: 139 | Registered: Mar 2009
sofresh
♀ Member
Member # 22912
Default  Posted: 9:01 AM, April 27th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I was hoping someone would do me a favor.

If you (WS...WH preferred)would be willing to e-mail my WH to express empathy and encourage him to come to SI please PM me.
Thanks


ME BW 30 & DS 14 mos.
STBXWH 38 sociopath, SA living with OW 25
D day #1
4 F/R's and corresponding D days
For unhealthy relationships, Dr Seuss would probably say to us…
“Be happy its over, don't cry because it happened”

Posts: 630 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: NY
painfulandhurt
♂ Member
Member # 22666
Default  Posted: 9:02 AM, April 27th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

As an infrequent contributor here...

fyrepixie15 -

Is there hope for a FWS and our M if after 9 months of trying to R he says...
"I can't cope with or deal with seeing the pain I have caused"

I know how much this sucks. I am in a situation where I am trying to do everything I can for myself and my BW, however, I struggle with this in my head at times as well. Part of this though has to do with how my BW reacts to the efforts I am making. I know my BW is hurt, I know she is angry, I know she at times cares and doesn't care, but ... with the fluctation of the mood (aka the rollercoaster) I try and look for every high I can. The best advice I can give for that statement is when you hear it, simply ask him, "When you say you can't cope with or deal with the pain, what would you tell to your (name a relative/best friend) if they were going through this kind of pain? What would you tell your (best friend) if he was the one who betrayed his partner?" - Let him think through the situations and come to his conclusions. I have to remind myself of this everytime my BW and I talk.


"I don't know how to get the feelings back that I used to have for you and us"

This one is trickier because it kinda depends on you both. I know for me, that I would give anything for my BW to meet me half-way. What I mean by this is the only way either person can get those feelings back is by actively using them (aka - fake it till you make it). By not acknowledging that those feelings existed or are somehow broken, how can they can ever come back?
A persons mind will work on the heart and the feelings to make the thoughts as real as possible. But the truth is we can control our minds and we are supposed to lead our hearts. So, if you are doing everything you can to try and win the love back, I would suggest frankly telling him straight out - if you do not at least put forth an effort you will never know and remain stuck where you are.

"I don't know how I can say I love you and do the things we do and still not be able to buy a card that says I love you.

This is very hard to do because of the guilt and the fear of rejection. I am almost a year out and I still can not do this because my BW tells me she does not love me anymore. I can not bring myself to give her a card throwing my feelings out there like that and continue to have them stomped on. So I give her a card that is funny or witty, and I tell her my feelings.

For me personally it is easier to hear the rejection than to see a card (symbol) I worked long and hard to put the thought into to find one that matched how I felt inside and to watch it be thrown in the trash or discarded (like my feelings). It is just easier to say it than to give it.

"Part of me doesn't want to try anymore because the hurt and the pain is too much."

Again, hard to deal with but that one is his to deal with. My only recommendation here is that this too depends on your reactions / actions towards him. How my BS acts towards me (especially when I am putting in major efforts) really does effect my strength and will. I will continue to put in an effort because she is worth fighting for but the more she rejects and the longer she rejects the more it will deplete my will. On the flipside, I would ask, What would you tell a friend who is struggling with continuing through the pain and hurt? what would you suggest to a friend to help him through the struggle?

Again this all something he has to want and realize.


WS - 30's (Me) BS - 30's (her)
M >10y
1 DS/DD
DDay# 05/2008
R / S / D - Im not sure and it changes moment to moment.

Posts: 359 | Registered: Jan 2009 | From: lost...
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 9:16 AM, April 27th (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

fyrepixie -

Is there hope for a FWS and our M if after 9 months of trying to R he says...
"I can't cope with or deal with seeing the pain I have caused"

"I don't know how to get the feelings back that I used to have for you and us"

"I don't know how I can say I love you and do the things we do and still not be able to buy a card that says I love you.

"Part of me doesn't want to try anymore because the hurt and the pain is too much."

nlovemyfamily -

can anyone address how the WS who realizes the error of their ways, restores the trust, respect and real love of their adult children? I see my WS defeatist attitude standing in the way for his relationship with his children to be healed and restored. He states he can't undo what he has done. Any wisdom out there for me???

I actually see both of these situations as having the same core issue. There is a basic rule that I have found is pretty common.

The FWS must heal themselves before they can heal their relationships with others.

In my case, my Self Esteem was already low leading up to the A. I didn't think much of myself unless others pointed out the "good" I added in their lives.

Ironically, while the A temporarily boosted my self esteem through others telling me I was a great guy, it had an "equal and opposite" reaction when everything came crashing down. If you take someone who already feels they are not highly valued, and then they realize the amount of damage they have done in having an A, the hole just gets deeper. In the early days, it seems like you can never climb back out of it.

The key to resolving the issue was a lot of hard work in IC to find the "real me". The "valuable me". The place where I defined my own worth and not ask others to do it for me.

As I found those answers, I was able to stop the phase of wallowing in self pity and start the process of being more valuable to others. One example of how IC helped this was a discussion about not being able to "be enough" for someone else. Of feeling like you could never do enough to meet their needs. My IC started to force me to examine the question "who said that the standard that someone else set for you defines success?". One example was a perennial national champion collegiate basketball team. If they have a season where they make it to the Elite Eight but lost in a Regional Final and don't make the Final Four, were they unsuccessful? If they define themselves by the expectations of their fans, they might see it as failure. But if they assess the talent they have, injuries that happened during the year and other factors they may determine that they accomplished all that they were capable of achieving that season. So they need to look at things as a success because they did all they were capable of doing. The expectations of others were unrealistic and should not define success or failure.

There were, of course, more moments of self discovery. But this work on improving how I looked at myself was required before I could be strong enough in healing my relationships with my BW, our kids and other friends around me.

To me, the answer is to continue to push the FWS to do work in IC, and remind them that the A was in essence running away from these issues in the past. That didn't work out so well for them before. Instead of running away from the challenge by giving up on R, the FWS should increase their efforts in IC to make themselves stronger people instead.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
katiej
♀ Member
Member # 14724
Default  Posted: 8:46 PM, April 28th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This question is primarily for WS who have healed.

I am a BS and have read and read as most BS do. My FWH and I are healing very well though after two years, there are still triggers and hurts which I both accept, and expect will slowly fade away if we continue on this path.

My question is this. In society, TV programs (talk and fiction), etc. there are BS explaining their survival of infidelity both with and without the WS, there are programs who have the OP on with some glorifying the A's, others not. But there are seldom WS on who have healed who can explain the reasons for the A's as far as it often being an individual issue, or communication issue, vs an awful BS who is rightfully cheated on.

Do you think that in the future, WS will be able to talk about healing from an A in the same way that an alcoholic can now talk publicly about recovering? (In our case, there were multiple A's used to deaden pain similar to an alcoholic using the bottle).Until then,I feel that new WS will feel justified, OP will feel justified, and we will all continue to be hurt because it seems that in society/our culture, infidelity is glorified and BS are villified (sp) for the most part.

Anyone have any thoughts?


First d-day Oct. '06. 3 more after that.
He is working hard. We are R.

Posts: 479 | Registered: May 2007
morningside
♀ Member
Member # 23765
Default  Posted: 6:40 AM, April 29th (Wednesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi,
I've posted a similar topic in 'just found out'. Long story short, my H doesn't know if he wants to try R as he wants other things in life and moving back from overseas (he's on postin gbut can move back any time) to try and work on things, and his young family do not fit into what he 'needs' to do in his life. Says he couldn' possibly stay in the city and to a 9-5 job to work on our marriage. And can't to the 'family thing'. The last A was 3 years ago.

My question to WS - is he in the fog? Is this just an excuse and he really doesn't want me? Is he feeling too guilty? Does he just not want to face up to what he's done to his family?

Any insight would be wonderful, I'm wracking myself over how he can choose to miss out on his kids growing up.


Mum (30) of 3 little boys 7ys and under
Together for 12 years, M for 9 yrs
D-Day 14/03/09 - found out about first 3 A's (starting during engagement in 2000).
D-Day 2 04/09 - A #4 and now with OW #4
Status: S 15 Mar 09 - in different countries

Posts: 161 | Registered: Apr 2009 | From: Australia
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