The infidelity gift that just keeps on giving. In every way. Their loss, not ours.
This trying to be "nice" thing is really getting to me I guess.
Their loss, not ours
UK, if they lose us it's their loss. But haven't we lost along the way too... our innocence, our trust in humanity, the "in love" feeling. Everybody loses except the OP who goes off and lives their life unscathed.
OR gets a 30 minute softball prime time interview with Diane Sawyer on national tv. She couldn't even get the girl to admit she was a prostitute! She never even challenged her "I was an escort ". She said "sometimes there appears to be no difference, but there was." No honey, you were a whore.
Good night. I think I need some real sleep.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda
But haven't we lost along the way too... our innocence, our trust in humanity, the "in love" feeling.
OK. Off to confront UKgís H and make sure he takes all his crap to his little box on the hillside.
How? Now even the why? But the how.
Compartmentalism is part of it. Open the box, jump in, play around and when you're done, close the box and put it back on the shelf. Then the insides of the box starts to "call" you again. Temptation, taboo, all heady stuff. We covered some of this in our MC. H said it was like it wasn't even him doing it. He was a dual personality. The guy having sex with all those women was who ever he felt like being that day. At home, if there was anger involved, he did "get off" on his secret a little. It was a game at times. At other times, it was a balancing act, at others total denial.
I know for me, I am jealous that he got that intense "first time" feeling with someone else. Someone who reminded him of who he used to be. But now I kind of relate to it like porn. He really gets off on it, likes the secrecy of it, but after a half hour or so, he's bored with the moaning and goes back to his real life. All the porn was was a means to an orgasm. Yeah, it was 'fun' while he was doing it, but then on with life. (and since I equate this way, that's why I get so angry about the porn)
She was never real. She never met him at the door and handed him a screaming, poopy child, or complained they never got a vacation or forgot to pick up his cleaning. She was there 100% for him for that whole hour or so. Wow, how special.
And this kind of leads to UKG's post. He could have had that with us, IF they had taken the poopy child and comforted them and picked up the living room and got OUR cleaning once in a while. But they have to see us as "failure to provide" because the OP never "failed" them at what they needed them for. Somehow running their household, raising their children, doing their laundry, cooking their food, nursing them when they were sick meant NOTHING because it was provided because we "HAD" to, that was our role. The OP had no standards set for them. If they showed up, they met the requirement.
He didn't love her. He may have said it and she to him. But it kept the fantasy alive. They HAD to be in love, right? Otherwise, they were scum, doing something wrong and immoral and that just didn't fit in with the character they built as themselves. It kept the fantasy going.
And it explains how they can throw the OP under the bus once the affair is outed. Because they can no longer be in love with two. One HAD to be false. The one he valued MOST was kept.
It doesn't explain my H's actions, so I'm really guessing at how that might be from what I've read. My H just got tired of the double life. He was getting older, he was physically tired out. Plus his OW was losing her appeal for many reasons, so he walked away from her. He didn't run to me. Because he kept seeing the hookers after he was done with her. He kept on cheating until it was no longer convenient for him, that's all.
On FWS on here told me I should give my H more credit for walking away when he didn't really have to. But my H was/is weak and it would have to have become annoying or too much trouble for him to quit something. He would never have quit while it was going on. He didn't, despite my confrontations and proof. He was doing what he WANTED and no one was going to stop him... like the porn.
I don't know that there are answers to any of that. I just wanted to jump in here and say hi. My last d-day was only a week before your's Weepy. I loved your post and I think H might have to read that one. Thank you.
Hope all is well with everyone.
Edited to fix typos. Pretty bad when you misspell two of 15 words.
[This message edited by BorrowTrouble at 10:04 PM, November 22nd (Saturday)]
One thing is that I dont understand how he could be with the OW for all these years, put her first - in every aspect, then without hesitation, dump her on D-Day and establish NC.
When does the hell of triggers and tears stop?
[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 11:14 AM, November 23rd (Sunday)]
Edited to fix typos. Pretty bad when you misspell two of 15 words
So, pull up a chair, pour some wine and tell us your story.
"we never wanted you to get hurt."
I just tried to post and the site went down briefly...is that a hint?
Welcome Marquet. Sorry that you find yourself a member here but this is a great group and you will get much support. From your post, your dday was a couple of years ago and you just found us now? Did you know about the other affairs before or did you learn about them all at once? Tell us your story and we will try to help or just give you hugs.
The whole "I didn't want to hurt you" and "I loved you even during the affairs" thing makes me want to
. I fiiiiinnnnnnaaaaallllllly got my H to admit that he was really 1) only thinking about himself and I wasn't really in the picture other than a manager of his life and a support system and 2) that he was so broken that he really was incapable of love. There is a fabulous thread in Wayward about this that I can't check the title of right now but it I think it is "How could you do this if you love me" or something like that. There are pages of posts but on page 3, neverendinghurt has a GREAT post that we ALL should read as it addresses this subject from both the WS and BS point of view.
All quiet here, just the usually crying and being sad and wanting to eviscerate him for taking my whole adult life away. We are definitely doing the Imago weekend in mid-Dec so I will let everyone know how that is.
UKG - I can't imagine your strength to get through this crisis in your friends life. Her H sounds like a completely selfish twat.
BT - any word on your son(s)?
FNF - I got a laugh out of reading your post about chasing around grandkids and then collapsing on the couch. I had my 3rd at 40 and I reeeeeallllly don't recommend that to anyone!!! Let's just say at 40 your body really doesn't not want to sit on the floor and play "Barbies" for hours.
She was never real. She never met him at the door and handed him a screaming, poopy child, or complained they never got a vacation or forgot to pick up his cleaning. She was there 100% for him for that HOLE hour or so.
Weepy, this is exactly it but I edited your post just slightly to make it more appropriate!!!!
Just wanted to pop in and bump this thread up a little. H and I only had one fight this weekend. But it was a doozy.
He doesn't trust ME.
We made some promises at our last argument. And I've kept to mine, he kept to his for 3 days. Anyway, a situation came up yesterday where I could have been snooping. I told myself I wasn't going to and went about my business. H made sure I COULDN'T. I shouldn't have told him I was snooping then or how. So instead of trusting that I wouldn't, he made sure I couldn't instead. And was VERY obvious about it.
So I told him later that I was hurt that he didn't trust me. That a perfect opportunity to see the "change" he'd wanted to see was available and he chose not to see what happened. Just assumed immediately that I would. I told him I kept my promises and I would just have to accept that my H thought I was a sneak and liar and live with it. (He used those words in our last fight). That I would just have to accept that there is no trust from his side either and proceed from there.
Needless to say we're back in our neutral corners. Neither one of us is going to make the first move. I have no reason to apologize and he thinks I do for making a fuss over his "protecting" his privacy.
SO, it's back to our usual standoff.
There is a fabulous thread in Wayward
Does this love he now claims to feel for me have anything of value worth fighting for or is just a feeling that over time is capable of committing the same horrendous acts that were perpetrated on me during those 8 years of his A.
Oh and welcome to the new members of the club nobody wants to join. If you are lurking, know that this group is stronger than each individual here realizes and feel free to post and benefit from the support here.
I've been in a fragile state the last month or so... triggered by knowing his online EA began in October shortly after he got a personal email and started playing in the MSN game zone while dealing with my own health issues at this time of year. Depression gets the better of me. Yet I long to be my former self; enjoying my life, secure in my marriage, my Faith and my personal/professional skills and looking forward to our 1st grandson this spring... not struggling through a medicated fog. I was in tears a lot during church yesterday. More freaky dreams last night doesn't help today's state of mind. BUT I am trying to break through the cobwebs...
UKg & Weepy Your words give me strength. Thank you so much.
His love at this time does include "action" and for these 3 years I have a lot of evidence to give me hope, but as I see it, I will never allow myself to believe completely in his love and will forever look for proof through action.
Haven't posted in a while but do follow all the stories. Hugs to all.
I'm okay, over 3 years out, but cuz of OC it's never really "out". H's actions day to day are as fnf described, and my feelings are also as she described. So there's always a low level of, I don't know what to call it, unease, malcontent, wariness--something,
Day to day, we just live our busy lives. H is around, and if he takes trips, I usually go with him. We visit OC and that's traumatic etc., but we get through it and he only sees OW in a public place. Talk about "deep" stuff or infidelity related stuff isn't very frequent, and it's only me who brings anything up. But bring it up I do if I need to. Still isn't always pretty.
But I find myself getting to the place where I just want to move on emotionally, and I don't always care if H is with me. He is still feeling like he's in his alternate universe, feeling totally shitty about himself, and though he's transparent and spending time talking and doing things with me (in what would seem like a "regular" way for a married couple of over 30 years), it's like he's numb. Tries, and doesn't complain about it or even talk about it unless I ask. But it's disheartening for me to feel like what I do or what I am doesn't reach him or make much of a difference in how he feels in life.
Course, I know when he withdraws or if I feel like withdrawing, I'm supposed to go towards him, show affection or whatever, and he does respond--but I wind up feeling like he's doing it just to make me feel better (which is okay, I guess), but I so long to feel like he's reaching out to me, showing affection, etc. cuz HE wants to, HE feels loving feelings, etc.
Maybe it's my paranoia, I know he's never been an outgoing, touchy-feely person, but he was during his cheating years--he says she elicited it from him--why can't he be like that a little around our house?
Boy this is rambling--life really is pretty good for me--love our new life on the West Coast, love my job, love my kids, love being married to H despite all the shit--just not complete somehow. So I'll adjust my expectations--live with what I'm dealt--continue to monitor H's actions--try to enjoy what we have--
Hugs to everyone--hope it's not too much of a downer to hear from an old timer whose life isn't all roses--there really are a lot of roses, just too many thorns. And maybe I was better at ignoring the thorns or just didn't see them before, being a pollyanna-ish optimist at heart despite at the same time being cynical about mankind!
there really are a lot of roses, just too many thorns.
This is why it isn't about the BS. This is why it is never about the OP. This is why it's so hard for some to 'face reality' - and why some WS's forever run from it.
Infidelity is never love. It's not even infatuation (well, not with the OP anyways - it's an infatuation with the WS's own nonexistent 'imaginary self'). Affairs are a black hole of self greed and phantom self admiration.
The phantom in your head, the phantom that haunts your bed, the phantom starring in the mental movies many BS's have - is really the phantom self the WS was captivated by. The OP provided the mirror the WS paraded in front of and preened for. That's the only role they played. OP's go through the same thing in an affair - who they get 'attached to' isn't their MP. It's their own version of the 'illusory self' they can't let go of. You see, outside of affairland - that person doesn't exist. (Of course we all know it never existed, but try telling a foggy WS or OP that - they won't believe you).
Affairs are all about the self - for both WS's & OP's. It's the 'mirror' they crave. Like Snow White's evil stepmother, their mirror tells them they are the 'fairest in the land' - for a price. Ahhhh, but facing the toll such escapism exacts is so very horrifying, that some just can't bring themselves to do so.
Don't buy into the lie that you weren't good enough, don't buy into the lie that the OP was "all that and a bag of chips", don't buy into the lie that this is your fault, and don't compare yourself to an OP who doesn't amount to more than some sick "prop" in a mental maze of self deception. Don't let your WS's affair warp your own healty self image. You know what reality is - don't let anyone else warp your reality."
If I loved myself, I would not enter a relationship with someone who is already committed (I don't share - it is degrading). If I loved myself, I wouldn't 'date' someone I couldn't call at home. If I loved myself, I wouldn't do things I had to lie about. If I loved myself, I wouldn't fool myself into thinking that a man that had to sneak around to see me really cared about me. If I loved myself, I wouldn't convince myself that a few weekly phone calls well after midnight and a few erotic emails during the day followed by sex in a 'pay by the hour' motel is a 'relationship'. If I loved myself, I wouldn't see someone who wasn't willing to take me out in public. If I loved myself, I wouldn't have sex with someone who can't sleep with me in his own bed. If I loved myself, I wouldn't behave in a way that would make me die of shame if my children knew. If I loved myself, I would end an unhappy relationship before beginning another one. If I loved myself, I wouldn't treat others in a way I wouldn't want to be treated. If I loved myself, I would know that anything that costs me my integrity just isn't worth it. If I loved myself, I would know that someone who wants to destroy my integrity does not love me.
Affairs may feel like love sometimes, but if they even come close to love - it isn't any kind of 'healthy love'. I don't believe affairs involve love at all. What affairs do is create an infatuation with 'the feeling' of being desired (lust) and the desperate need to escape something (addiction). While in the addiction, it still 'feels good'. That doesn't mean it is love. It means the addiction is still there (the need to escape). It only feels like love, because in the moment - you don't love yourself enough to 'see reality'.
[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 12:00 PM, November 24th (Monday)]
But I do agree that the A itself is about the WS, about what's wrong with them, what THE're looking for (self-esteem), I agree it's not love. But to not call it a relationship, is going too far. MY H's OW did have a relationship with him and so did just about everyone here. She had the best relationship of her life and had power too.
Since I know NOTHING of their relationship, I've had to piece together from other people's experiences, other FWS experiences. I have no real idea what went on. No OP to contact. No emails, no letters (except 1) and I don't even know if that was written in the beginning, middle or end of the relationship. But however flawed, they had each other.
He ran to her when we were fighting, when things were going great in his life too (well, except for home). SHE got the first ride in his new truck, heck SHE knew he was buying it before I did. He turned to her when I wasn't "loving" him enough. When I was pursuing my career that he pushed me to do. (And now he wonders why I have no ambition). He set the whole thing up. Sick, vile, toxic, yes, but it was a relationship. H has many such relationships. The one with her just happened to include sex too.
So here I go off to the job he PUSHED me into. And part of my agreement is to not worry about what he's doing home alone. Funny, he always makes sure to leave work on TIME on Monday when he knows I'm gone. Any other day of the week he wouldn't be getting home until 5:30 or later. I took this job specifically so he would realize I CAN let him alone, but it's not working that way.
Oh, gotta go.
She was there 100% for him for that HOLE hour or so.
When I treat you with love, I love you.
Her H sounds like a completely selfish twat.
That I would just have to accept that there is no trust from his side either and proceed from there.
he says she elicited it from himó
I have suggested that, since UKg2ís fuckwit of a H has moved out, that we should try living together separately (as it is described). He lives in his space, I live in mine (prob with the boys and dog) and we get together a couple of times a week, go on holidays, visit family, etc. It worked quite well for me when DS1,2&3 were young and we lived in that place I hated. He would go off on Sunday pm, come home once in the week, then on Friday night, played rugby on Saturday, chill, garden, chop wood Sunday am and then bugger off again. I had my routine and it worked well. Of course, he could have been having an affair then. I wouldnít know. And thatís another bit of the problem. Has he done this before? Guess Iíll never know now.
there really are a lot of roses, just too many thorns.
Iíve kept the other ďif I loved someoneĒ post. I just think of MOW and wonder how she could carry on, knowing how much he had hurt her before, how he was willing to just walk away, how he just said what she wanted to hear. He only did what she demanded and then only up to a point. He never gave himself to her. How could she want someone who was just a role player in her life? But she really thought he would leave me, she really thought he couldnít bear life without her, she really thought he loved her. And he did, he just loved me and this family more. Thatís why she was so broken, she couldnít understand his behaviour of continually reeling her in when he wasnít committed in the long term. Well, other than the five years it went on for. O, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practise to deceive! Mind you, I reckon he got better as the years went by ÖÖ..
Funny, he always makes sure to leave work on TIME on Monday when he knows I'm gone.
This quote really hurt my heart: Maybe it's my paranoia, I know he's never been an outgoing, touchy-feely person, but he was during his cheating years--he says she elicited it from him--why can't he be like that a little around our house?
Does he know you feel that way? Cause if he does and he isn't making the effort for you it makes me want to put a boot in his ass. Sorry for the vulgarity.
I also have to agree with Weepy that I don't think DL's thoughts necessarily apply to a LTA. There was clearly a relationship there, not a healthy one I would agree, but a relationship nonetheless.
LostHeart, where are you?********
Shirley, are you talking about the "did I love my spouse during my affair thread?"
LostS, what kind of therapies have you tried for depression?
No real word on my sons, yet. Littler son is having a battery of heart tests tomorrow to rule that out. So still waiting. Thanks for the concern.