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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Long Term Affairs X I I I
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 5:48 AM, October 29th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

this situation would have sent me into a rage on the way home and then I would have cried for two days after.

And by sheer virtue of the fact that it didn't is impressive to say the least. Were there any words, gestures, etc. that your H conveyed he knew it was an awkward moment? Did you convey to him that it was an awkward moment or do you really feel it was understood?

I ask because we had a talk last night. The wedding came up at dinner while we were alone, just the logistics where, when. And I told H that he should know that I already have some trepidation about what it's going to be like hearing those vows, remembering. That I might get upset, that I'm going to medicate myself to get through it, but that I would appreciate his strength and support.

He went totally insane. About how I'm PLANNING to ruin the day. I should stay home. That I just love to make him miserable.

So I asked if he wasn't bothered by the idea of hearing the words he shredded. Wasn't it going to bother him to know that we did it and now we have no sacred bond any more. That what Tini and her BF are doing is meaningless to me now.

He said "No, you see I've forgiven myself. I figure I made a mistake and I've figured out a way to live with that and move on. You think I did it to stick it up your ass and now you're punishing me. It's all about perception." Wow. I almost killed him, please thank me for my composure at that point.

SO he asks if I discussed this with my therapist and I said of course. And waht was her advice finally? TO TELL MY HUSBAND WHEN SOMETHING IS BOTHERING ME OR ON MY MIND. So I do it, and he freaks out.

FInally we get to a point where I can tell him "Here's what I want you to do." And he says "fine whatever YOU want. I can't have what I want, but you get what YOU want to be miserable and make me miserable all day."

And then it comes out..."The problem is that you think I'm a sleazeball, that I'll always be a sleazball, you're never going to think any differently." The only time in the whole conversation that HE got choked up.

Then we both did the "if I'm such a sleazball why are you still here?" and "If you think I'm only here to make your life miserable why are you here?" bit.

So I'm thinking of telling him next week, after the wedding, that we need to go back to MC. And those two questions are exactly why. Because if he goes on thinking that it's my mission in life to ruin his, and I know this angry, f'd up guy is not who I want to spend the rest of my life with... why ARE we here? Obviously neither of us wants a divorce or it would have been done by now. And I think we need someone good to explore that with us. And we CAN'T ignore the fact that the affairs are a part of why we're like this.

So there's my story for today. I even taped the conversation so that if we decided to go to MC, he/she can hear EXACTLY how we talk to each other, how he projects, whether or not I'm being clear to him about what I want.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
mindisgone
♀ Member
Member # 17772
Default  Posted: 6:49 AM, October 29th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And then it comes out..."The problem is that you think I'm a sleazeball, that I'll always be a sleazball, you're never going to think any differently." The only time in the whole conversation that HE got choked up.

Weepy,
This strikes a chord and what i have sensed about your H from your posts remind me of my H's mind set.
Gonna try not to ramble.

In a conversation just last night about his IC'ing and his childhod abuse issues he realised that when he was being "punished" for something he did and he was telling himself "i deserve it, i AM bad because i did..." well, whatever the things he "did" that he felt was so deserving of punishment was never the thing he was actually being punished for at the time. It was always something that she didn't know (his M) that was causing his great shame.

I;m sure you can easily grasp the implications of that but for him it was a big moment and i think a leap ahead for him as he processes what it means with his IC.

In my long winded way i have been saying that this is what i see in your H, and obviously mine. The statement he made that i quoted above is generally how my H has felt for years and like with his M, what was making him feel like a sleezeball , whatever i was , in his mind, punishing him for was in truth completely unknown to me.

I have always thought that your H, if he could tell the truth and get his secrets out, you would be seeing a very different man.
His shame is probably great and of course,self imposed. And none of that is news to you i guess, is it?
Thoughts?

((weepy))


You are very welcome FNF.


too long a sacrifice can make a stone of the heart..

Posts: 678 | Registered: Jan 2008
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 7:47 AM, October 29th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Weepy,

Your husband reminds me very much of mine when we began MC. He is very emotionally immature. No matter what his feelings are -- shame, guilt, annoyance, happiness, whatever -- they trump yours completely. Your feelings do not affect him at all by themselves. They only affect him by the feelings they conjure in him. He never learned the key emotional relating response of empathy so he has no ability to put himself in your shoes or anyone's shoes or to value others feelings/views. His world view is completely self-centered and I don't think anything in your world will ever change while that is the case.

For a person without empathy the only reasonable response to their SOs bad feelings is defensivness. That's what you get from him.

When you look for an MC, consider finding one trained in Imago. They have a whole series of exercises to teach empathy. I really see that as what your husband needs. If he can learn to open up his worldview enough that yours has value, you will see a very different man.

BT


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 7:50 AM, October 29th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'd like to ask the tribe for prayers please. My older son had a seizure the other night. It was pretty severe and very frightening for all of us. He had a much milder one two years ago and we had hoped that was just an aberration, but apparently not.

We went to the ER and had some initial tests done and we have some more today. Hopefully, they can get to the bottom of this.


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 7:51 AM, October 29th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have always thought that your H, if he could tell the truth and get his secrets out, you would be seeing a very different man.
His shame is probably great and of course,self imposed. And none of that is news to you i guess, is it?
Thoughts?

mig, I've tried approaching this a half dozen times. He says he's told me all there is that I need to know. Why are the details important? He doesn't even remember what I want to know, etc.

But you're right and our MC pointed it out dozens of time, he has a deep, deep feeling of inadequacy and shame. The only way to overcome it is to be someone different. Live life honestly, openly, be vulnerable and real. He cannot do that.

He thinks he's doing it though. He's not cheating on me, he's reachable 24/7. He calls me 3 x a day just to check in.

Maybe he's unburdened himself to his IC and that's why he feels he's forgiven himself, but from the conversation last night, I don't think he really has. It's just in a box in one of those rooms in his fortress with every other "bad" thing he's done in his life, so his slate remains perceptually "clean". Every day is wiped and started over.

He has been a "failure" in his parents' eyes his entire life. He wasn't with me until the affairs started and I know I treated him badly and I also know he was asking for it, as a way of punishment. He didn't deserve a good marriage, because he was a sleazeball. What he was doing was just "typical" of his usual fuck ups. So he justified it that way. And of course, how could prostitutes and his low life OW make him feel inferior? They were WAY inferior to him. So he got a weird twisted ego boost and came home to someone he KNEW was better than him in every way.

So it comes to this. I accept that the affairs were about his issues, his bad coping skills, his inability to rise above his demons and put it away like he has and love and respect him for the man his is today. BUT I CAN'T because I don't respect this guy either.

The one who held me when I cried, who said he was 150% committed to this M, the one who told me he loved me every single day, who would ask me for affection and deliver it unasked. THAT's the man I was starting to trust and respect. To me it felt like this guy didn't give a damn whether he got my forgiveness, respect or whatever as along as I didn't rock the boat. (That is bring up anything unpleasant or make demands of any sort)

Now I hear him choke up when he says "you think I'm a sleazeball" and it tells me he DOES care, very much what I think of him. Which is why I want the info from FnF so badly.

So I can say to him sometime... "You work so hard for us. I appreciate it." Instead of "You work hard, big deal, so did I for 25 years I carried you and did everything for this marriage and you still screwed around. Now it's your turn."

And he needs to learn to say "Thank you for what you have done, I appreciate it and I love you and want you to stay." instead of "you do what you want, I can't control what you do."

He clings so hard to that one phrase from the serenity prayer that he doesn't even consider the other two parts of "what I can change" and the "wisdom to know the difference."


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 7:53 AM, October 29th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

as time went on, I could believe that my H's changes weren't just his attempt to lure me into a sense of false security but were real. I think this was the major turning point.

FNF – amazing…this is exactly how I feel now. Everyone says don’t listen to what they say but look at their actions. But, I am suspicious that he is just doing a really good job of acting so that he can lure me back and then hurt me again. I guess, once again, it is time. Thank you FNF for your insight. You have no idea how valuable it is to have someone who has walked that lonely mile and can let us know that there is a path.

Also, the story about your Aunt and Uncle is . I was at a soccer field last week and someone was talking about seeing this older man in Starbucks with a "hot, young redhead" and she jokingly said something to him like "does your wife know you are here" and he was . She said to all of us, I wonder if he was having an affair. It was sort of an "out of body" experience for me. I could stand their and hear her talking but it was like I wasn't there.

MIG – my IC says that my state of “confusion” is due to the fact that I am not yet at a place where I can decide one way or another. I can’t move forward yet….I won’t allow myself yet out of self-protection, fear of hurt, fear of losing my self-respect, not knowing if he has changed or changed enough, etc. But I can’t say it’s over either as I still have some hope that we can work things out whether it is for us or for the kids. So I am spinning around and that is causing these feelings of depression, anger, pain, etc. Her suggestion was that I sit with this still but try to be more “in the moment” rather than let the thoughts consume me….yeah, good luck with that!

When you look for an MC, consider finding one trained in Imago. They have a whole series of exercises to teach empathy.
BT, how do you find an MC trained in Imago...I would love to find one. I have read some of the Imago based books and I think we really need that.


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 8:55 AM, October 29th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

shirley: I just went to their website and then found a couple therapist near me. I actually emailed them about the situation and they emailed me back with ADVICE without being asked. Neither are under our insurance plan and the therapy would have been way too expensive for my H to consider. But I always thought that was the way we should have gone too. Ihave the books and the workbook gathering dust in my hutch.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 11:50 AM, October 29th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((((BT)))) I just saw your post - we were cross-posting. I am so sorry about your son. You and your son are in my thoughts.


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 12:08 PM, October 29th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((BT)) we must have cross posted too.

I know how scary those seizures are (SIL is -- finally -- an under control epileptic).

Please know that my prayers and thoughts are with you and your family.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
fadingmemories
♀ Member
Member # 20531
Default  Posted: 12:59 PM, October 29th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BT I'll keep your son and you in my prayers. My brother had a seizure disorder. Terrifying for the ones who watched, a natural electrical distribution for his brain and controlled well with medication. (((hugs)))

FNF thank you for your insight. I am slowly coming to your point of view and so happy to be there.

HShirley My husband said to me a few months ago that it would have been so much easier to just walk away. After 12 years of LTA and plans to leave me for her, she was waiting with open arms and a desire to make his life wonderful. At home he had a tormented, crazy hurt betrayed wife, 3 young adult children who looked at him with disgust in their eyes and had total loss of respect and a mirror that reflected who he truly was, and there was no getting away from it. There were months of turmoil, sobbing, anger and the disgust he faced everytime I shared the experience with with a family member or close friend but that is where he wanted to be.
One day I realized what kind of person would expend this kind of energy just to set me up?...and for what?....the ultimate punch in the gut? Would he give up his own happiness just to do that?
I don't think so...so this has to be real. He is here because he wants to be. I will always keep a part of me wary, so my antenae is up never to be duped for long again but I have relaxed in the fact that my H is home.

He left on a business trip yesterday and last night I found a note in my journal that I would like to share.

"Know that I am doing this for us, our home, our family and our security. If I could find another way to bring in money efficiently and not be away from you, I would. I will be home soon. I am done chasing phantoms, searching for something I could only find within myself. I have traveled on a long emotional journey, to find what is most important,is here. Home is made of gold, everything else is paper mache'. I thank you for your generosity in letting me be home. There will not be a moment I will take that for granted. I thank that you have chosen to be positive, it helps to exercise that which you hope to influence your daily life. Thank you for our life. Thank you for accepting my love. Thank you for loving me"

We only have the asurance of today in our lives. If today is good embrace it. Yesterday can not change, but the path you walk today leads you to tomorrow.
I hope you have a wonderful today.


Me BS
Him FWS
Married 25 Years  Together 31
LTA 12 years
DDay 4/11/08
R 2/14/09
"No matter if you think you can or you can't...either way you are right"
Scars do not form on the dying...
only on the survivors.



Posts: 315 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: North East
mindisgone
♀ Member
Member # 17772
Default  Posted: 1:43 PM, October 29th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BT, Thinking of you and your boy.(((bt)))


So it comes to this. I accept that the affairs were about his issues, his bad coping skills, his inability to rise above his demons and put it away like he has and love and respect him for the man his is today. BUT I CAN'T because I don't respect this guy either.


Oh Weepy, Can you really stay in this place, damned if you do , damned if you don't??


Her suggestion was that I sit with this still but try to be more “in the moment” rather than let the thoughts consume me….yeah, good luck with that

HS,
Basically this is the same advice we just got from our own FNF.
My IC said something similar but childishly or maybe stupidly what i wanted from her was some sort of step by step plan. I suppose what i really want is to be sure that i won't always feel this way and that i will make the right choice. It's knowing that no matter what i choose even years down the road when thinking about it all again i will still have to feel this agony. It kills me it fucking kills me, that thought.And i hate the both of us for that.
Sorry HS i know i'm not being very positive for you today.

Fading,
What a wonderful note to find in your journal. Did it help you today? Hope so.

hugs all.


too long a sacrifice can make a stone of the heart..

Posts: 678 | Registered: Jan 2008
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 1:59 PM, October 29th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

mig -
what i wanted from her was some sort of step by step plan.

I asked for that too. She said there isn't one. I don't know if that is true as other here seem to have had different experiences. I have resorted to going to the library and, literally, checking out EVERY self-help book there is. Even one by Dr. Phil . I think the step by step plan is "one step at a time".

FM-

Would he give up his own happiness just to do that?
I don't think so...so this has to be real. He is here because he wants to be. I will always keep a part of me wary, so my antenae is up never to be duped for long again but I have relaxed in the fact that my H is home.
Hmmmmm, interesting way to think about it. I need to mull this one. BTW, that note from your H was wonderful.


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
mindisgone
♀ Member
Member # 17772
Default  Posted: 2:07 PM, October 29th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Even one by Dr. Phil .

Oh no, for shame HS. And thanks i suppose i knew there wasn't a secret plan no one was telling me about.
Wish there was, i'd go to the ends of the earth to get it.


too long a sacrifice can make a stone of the heart..

Posts: 678 | Registered: Jan 2008
fadingmemories
♀ Member
Member # 20531
Default  Posted: 6:42 PM, October 29th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

thanks mindisgone yes it helped me have a great day


Me BS
Him FWS
Married 25 Years  Together 31
LTA 12 years
DDay 4/11/08
R 2/14/09
"No matter if you think you can or you can't...either way you are right"
Scars do not form on the dying...
only on the survivors.



Posts: 315 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: North East
25wimsey
♀ Member
Member # 7816
Default  Posted: 7:20 PM, October 29th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

One day I realized what kind of person would expend this kind of energy just to set me up?...and for what?....the ultimate punch in the gut? Would he give up his own happiness just to do that?
I don't think so...so this has to be real. He is here because he wants to be. I will always keep a part of me wary, so my antenae is up never to be duped for long again but I have relaxed in the fact that my H is home.

Posts: 695 | Registered: Aug 2005
25wimsey
♀ Member
Member # 7816
Default  Posted: 7:23 PM, October 29th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

One day I realized what kind of person would expend this kind of energy just to set me up?...and for what?....the ultimate punch in the gut? Would he give up his own happiness just to do that?
I don't think so...so this has to be real. He is here because he wants to be. I will always keep a part of me wary, so my antenae is up never to be duped for long again but I have relaxed in the fact that my H is home.

Sorry I hit the submit button without saying anything.

But that quote is great--and most days it is with me and helps getting along with life. Then there are the days when my suspicious and cynical part says, well maybe!!

Worth keeping those ideas in the forefront of the mind for me--thanks


Posts: 695 | Registered: Aug 2005
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 9:43 PM, October 29th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Weepy,

Our MC was not an official Imago therapist, meaning she hadn't completed all courses, certifications, etc to be listed on their website. But she used their exercises and ideas. We didn't go to her for that reason -- she was recommended by my MC -- but we have recommended her to other people for that reason.

BT


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 4:32 AM, October 30th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BT, keeping your DS in my thoughts. What were the results of the tests?

When I was a preteen,I was diagnosed with epilepsy after having many unexplainable seizures.These however only lasted for under 2 years, and never returned.

stay strong.

((((BT&DS)))))

ETA:
BT,My seizures were later discovered to have been caused by a bump to my head. I fell whilst playing ball and hurt my head. Could this or similiar have happened to your DS?

[This message edited by Lost Heart at 5:45 AM, October 30th (Thursday)]


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
So Lost
♀ Member
Member # 16801
Default  Posted: 6:45 AM, October 30th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((BT))) Prayers said for your son.

I'm surviving. That's the point, right? Sometimes I'm not so sure what the point is anymore, but I'll figure it out. I made it through dday thanks to a couple xanax. Honestly, i think my husband doesn't get it. He was shocked that I had taken xanax. I think he honestly did not understand why I was so upset. He had the brains enough not to even suggest that though.


Me: BS
Wh: WS
Dday 10/28/07
LTA with coworker
Attempting Reconciliation
he is remorseful, I am willing, we'll see what happens

Posts: 671 | Registered: Oct 2007
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 7:56 AM, October 30th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Were there any words, gestures, etc. that your H conveyed he knew it was an awkward moment? Did you convey to him that it was an awkward moment or do you really feel it was understood?

Neither of us said a word about it at the time or since. I think it was just understood.
"The problem is that you think I'm a sleazeball, that I'll always be a sleazball, you're never going to think any differently." The only time in the whole conversation that HE got choked up.

Weepy - this makes me so sad for him. I have always felt that your H lives with so much shame and projects it onto you and this statement proves it once again.
I wonder what he would do if you started praising any effort he makes in the hopes of building up his very low self-esteem. I started that a while back, things like, "You look very handsome today" or "This coffee is perfect this morning". It sounds ridiculous but I have to say from my experience, the more I did that, the more positive and happy my H became. I resisted (not always) the urge to criticize even when he ticked me off and tried to find positive things to say to him. I know it doesn't sound fair but I was willing to try any approach to change the dynamics in our R.
BT - Thinking of you and your DS. Please let us know how his tests went. (((BT)))
One day I realized what kind of person would expend this kind of energy just to set me up?...and for what?....the ultimate punch in the gut? Would he give up his own happiness just to do that?

FM - Thank you for saying this. It makes so much sense to me and every time I feel a trace of doubt slipping into my head, I will think of this quote. And that note he left in your journal, absolutely beautiful. What a treasure!
...from our own FNF.

MIG - That gave me a case of the warm fuzzies - thank you so much.
SoLost - How are you feeling today? I'm sorry your H didn't quite step up but you survived your first d-day and you are sounding stronger already. (((SL)))


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
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