In other words, when we are in "emotional overload" oftentimes we just need to vent and know that the person we are sharing our fears and concerns with understands and empathizes with us. That's what we are looking for - not a quick fix
Did he mention apologies at all in this part?
this was interesting because he talked about how conflict is natural in relationships and that while men typically go off and try to resolve it on their own, women want to talk it through, hash it out in detail in an attempt to gain the closeness and closure they need to move past it.
How do men & women deal with this? Our MC said women tend to bring things up "for" the relationship and they're they are doing something good yet men see it as nagging and criticizing. Did he have any further thoughts on that?
D-day 3/4/08 Whole "truth" from OW 3/12/08
Ow#1, 6 months PA
Ow#2, 2 years PA & EA
"It takes 3 seconds to say "I love you", 3 hours to explain it, & a lifetime to prove it".
When SI was off line I felt totally disconnected from you all, but now it is going to take me awhile to read back through. I will be lurking and trying to keep up with you all, though
Life is more challenges here, and I seem to be in a slump. Some A-related, but other stuff, too. Anyway, all of you struggling, hang in there. You can make it through.
That CLOSENESS analogy was great. I understand all that but seem to fall short on how to make my H understand what I need. Keep updating us on the seminar!
(((Hearbroken))) Sometimes it feels like it all ties back to the A.
I barked at H today b/c my mom offered to have a fence put in our yard for Christmas. I think I would like that. When H is here, the dog will go out and does not leave the property 99% of the time. But when he is not here I put her on a lead b/c I am worried she won't listen to me if I call her in. She amazingly really does stay right in our back yard. But a fence wold be nice for me to not have to worry. He simply said no, he doesn't want one. I blew up about how he just makes decisions not worrying about anyone else, as usual.
It had nothing to do with the fence. I had asked his opinion and he gave it. But I am pissed that his decisions have destroyed my life so I vented. He wasn't really phased. I just said I was upset and it's not about the fence and he said okay. Asshole. Did you want to ask me why I'm upset? Apparently no.
I am sick of spoon feeding him. Shouldn't he be trying to figure out what will make me happy, what I need? He fucked up, he should try to fix it. I'll be waiting until dooms day for that I think.
H is home today trying to deal with the fallout from his fender bender on Friday. He finally ran to Kmart for workpants. He said he HAD to have them for tomorrow and I said "Well, that's unfair to only give you one day's notice that you had to have workpants instead of jeans." Knowing full well he'd been researching workpants on the internet for weeks. No response.
We had a very quiet ride taking DS back to school yesterday. WE were talking about salesmen and "appearances". H said he could never cut it as a salesman "because I couldn't lie like that." DEAD SILENCE in the car. I finally said "You can lie with the best of them, but only if it suits you to. You have to have some kind of return to do it or a really, really good secret." He didn't say a word. Then he finally said "that's not what I was talking about." Yeah, like there's a "good" kind of lie and a bad kind of lie or something.
He's on his way home, so I have to bug off. I'll try and get back on in the morning. Hopefully he will be "recovered" enough to go back to work.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda
Weepy - sorry to hear about your H's accident. I hope he is feeling better.
Our MC said women tend to bring things up "for" the relationship and they're they are doing something good yet men see it as nagging and criticizing. Did he have any further thoughts on that?
So often when speaking with H I just want to be heard. My H tries to fix the problem or goes on the defensive when all I'm looking for is for him to just listen.
Regarding the "esteem issue"
I would have to disagree. You state...."they have to magnify our flaws inorder to justify their A's" It's true that they might do this,but remember the A's and especially multiple A's and long term A's are all about H's flaws and not ours. In the beginning it's easy for WS to point the finger at BS. By doing so, WS is not accountable for his/her actions and can lay blame with OP. Once the WS begins to heal he/she must come to terms with the fact that the A's are a result of under lying personal fear/behavior.
The road to R becomes much easier once WS stops blaming others for the A's and begins to uncover for themselves the real reason for the A's. In my case H has massive abandonment issues that stem from childhood patterns and impressions that he has into his adulthood.
I had my hours at work cut back today. They let 2 people go, guess i should consider myself lucky. But then if I'd been let go I'd know to just go find another FT job.
Anyway, he listened to a point and then started to tell me how badly these guys were running their business and how they should be running it. (He has no clue what they even do, didn't even know the company name until last week), but he has all the answers. So he tells me to ask them for more money, they cut my hours and he wants me to ask for a raise?
And this is why I stopped talking to him. He says we stopped talking. I listen to him until he's finished and then comment. I don't tell him what to do, I ask what he wants to do or how he feels about that. That is when he brings things to me for an opinion.
His accident was minor, but there's $2K worth of damage to his SUV. He just got done almost screwing up because he blamed his knee injury on work and they got him involved with all kinds of workman's compensation people and such. It turned into a mess. Think he would have learned his lesson? No., he's making a federal case out of this fender bender. How the insurance company is going to pay for his day off today. Four years ago I got broadsided, totalled my car and was back at work the next day.
So he ask me tonight should he go to work tomorrow. WTF do I care? No other income might be a good reason to go to work right? He wants me to tell him what to do. Then if it goes wrong, it's my fault.
fnf: Are you guys required to give any information about why you're there?
Fnf, thank you for taking the time for describing your sessions. You do so very well.
SoLost, think of how you want to spend dday. I know its the day when your whole world collapsed, but try also to think of it this way: it was the beginning of the end of their A and OW; it was the end of your old M, and the beginning of a whole new M; it was the end of the old SoLost, and the start of a new wiser, stronger SoLost who will no longer tolerate of accept anything less than her due.
You can spend the day having H cater to your every whim (seeing as he is off too); you can curl under the duvet with loads of chocolate and sleep the day away; you can mourn what you had and what you thought you had;....whatever you want. Acknowledge it though. You made it through one of the toughest years you will ever have faced and look at you! Look at how far you have come. Maybe mark your goals for you for the forthcoming year...not for the M or H, but you. No more are you going to be relegated to the end of the line or to the "maybe oneday"...your time is now!
Hang in there, Sweetie.You are going to be alright.
HAPPY BELATED BIRTHDAY NUMB AND SCARED (nas)!!!!
I know you hardly post here, but you were one of the important founders of this thread, which has been my lifesaver on many occassions.
Hope you had a great weekend!
It's true that they might do this,but remember the A's and especially multiple A's and long term A's are all about H's flaws and not ours.
DD's bday weekend went well. Everyone co-operated (even the weather!), and she had a blast. phew.
I started EMDR with IC last night, and was curious if anyone else here had tried it, and if so, what the results were.
She said it is going to be errr..more challenging with me because I exert alot of control over my thoughts, and am afraid to let go. I couldnt even relax in my "safe house" in my head.
The massive knots on my neck and shoulders concur!
LH- That was an amazing post to SoLost. If only we could hold onto those positive thoughts about antiversaries.
Glad to hear that the birthday turned out well!
Maybe you need a nice massage for those shoulders.
How was everyone's weekend?
We had some bumps in the road. We talked on the phone at length 1 night when WH was working an overnight. I wanted to know how sex was "different" with OW. After much discussion I finally realized what I want to hear is how our sex/relationship is better...or worse if it was I guess- but I know there has to be better aspects too and I want to hear them. Seems like all I can get from WH is what I force out- like, I barely kissed OW and there was somehow more of an emotional connection with us. I want him to think/feel/speak like a woman damn it and say, "I never felt comfortable doing x & y with OW and sex/ our relationship is so much better/special because of ............" From the description OW & WH have given I know what we have is more special *I think* and I just need to hear it- for him to describe it and have those feelings.
Then- Monday I had off for the holiday. He had gotten up in the middle of the night when the kiddos woke up & was on the computer for a while cause his back hurt (ongoing issue). This isn't uncommon but I hate it because I never know what he's doing while I'm sleeping and it feels funny. So, he came back to bed, we woke up & talked about how we had both been interested in sex the night prior but had fallen asleep as it was late (thanks to watching sports again). When I turned on the computer I asked him what he had done online (I was surprised the computer still wasn't on) and he said his fantasy sports and myspace games. So...i get online a few mins later and the history comes up when I go to favorites. I ask him if he deleted some history and he says yes. Turns out he looked at porn which we had agreed he would not do (online), masterbated, and then deleted the history. He said he "wasn't in the mood to tell me". So...we discussed what I saw as the 2 issues:
1. He went against my wishes & looked at online porn
2. He hid it and was lying by omission
He said he may have told me sometime- "I was upfront when you asked about deleting the history." OKAY buddy- SO, it's okay if I ask you on a daily basis if you've looked at porn, slept with anyone else, had innapropriate conversations, kept secrets, etc. etc.? I have to ask everyday to get honesty? PALEASE. We both got furious...he tried to blame the whole thing on the fact that I had left him horny the night before. We did eventually talk about it productively- he got emotional, we talked about some things that he's been frustrated about in regards to sex and how lately neither of us has been willing to offer it when we're not sure the other is willing ie: when he's watching sports, and based on my up & down moods. He is VERY aware that he's defensive in any situation and doesn't know how to stop it- even mid conversation when he knows he's being ridiculous. So...anways, he is trying I think.
I should probably remind him that we still have a no porn policy and openness & honestly is expected as well.
[This message edited by Whatnow28 at 5:29 PM, October 14th (Tuesday)]
SO, it's okay if I ask you on a daily basis if you've looked at porn, slept with anyone else, had innapropriate conversations, kept secrets, etc. etc.? I have to ask everyday to get honesty?
This has been our issue too. I told him that volunteering information is the way to go, other wise I'm going to have to interrogate him every night. Yeah, he even said the affairs went on so long because I didn't question his whereabouts or what he was doing. Like you, what am I supposed to say? "Are you fucking some whore?" every day? Plueezzeee is right. I did ask him and he lied, vehemently. So every time I brought up something questionable I was just being "paranoid and jealous or stupid" again. And he'd be ANGRY that I asked. Yet, now he says I should have asked.
I just said I was upset and it's not about the fence and he said okay. Asshole. Did you want to ask me why I'm upset? Apparently no.
SoLost, I have these quibbles with H all the time. And he never wants to know what it's about if it's not about the "fence" either. I figure they know, but want to make it about the present, stop dragging out the past every single argument.
Guess I'd feel that way if every day my H reminded me that I didn't bring my mother home from the hospital to die in her room like she wanted to. She never got strong enough to do that, but still I did promise her and failed. I know in my heart my mother forgave me, but I would still hate to hear it was the reason he didn't expect me to fulfill my promises to him or if I forget something "Well, I should have expected it, you couldn't even give your mother what she wanted." kind of thing.
But see, that happened between my mother and I, so he never was "touched" by it. If it was something I let him down about, I still do hear it, but he doesn't bring it up in every context.
The man can't even suggest I get out of the house for a while, go to the gym, have dinner with friends, anything without me jumping to the "you just want me out of the house so you can watch porn and MB." or "What do you want to do that I can't hear or see?" feeling. He was doing that at first, after Dday, but I know now that I can't control his actions 24/7. I know he takes his 3 minutes in the shower rather than have sex with me, alot of the time, but what do I do? Stay in the bathroom with him? Require he shower with me every time?
Oh, and LH, my IC tried EMDR with me, but I wouldn't relax either. So she recommended this visualization CDs and I bought like 8 of them. Even while doing them I will cry and fight when it comes to the parts about letting go. DO we ever learn that?
Also, I am going back and forth about what you wrote LH. I don't know if I want to look forward and make it positive and really see it as a beginning (hence my thought of resaying vows) or if I really want to just get hip deep in the wallow of it all, just let myself totally cry and scream and grieve and feel it all. I hold all that back very often. Especially since I have no one to talk to IRL except H and MC. One friend knows but we never mention it. That couple is more of H friends before the marriage and mine by marriage. YK? So I often just hold it in and I might like to just let go for a day. My luck I probably will plan that and not be able to even shed a single tear. lol
You know, they always seem to say that the more mature spouse make the move, lead the way. I am sick of being the mature one.
WhatNow, My husband looks at porn occassionally. We have never put down a no porn rule and I don't know that we have even talked about it much. he erases history and I can look through my keylogger. He will admit to having looked at it. I don't want to give away my one safety net of the keylogger. Anyway, it makes me feel like I am not good enough. he hasn't had sex with me in a month and that was only b/c it was our obligatory anniversary sex the day after. Somedays it seems that there are so many issues, I just can't tackle another.
Weepy, it is so frustrating to not be heard. If I told H I wanted to talk, he would do it without complete. But again, it all goes back to being the mature one. When do I get to have my midlife crisis?? When do I get to be selfish? A guy at work was flirting with me (a doctor) and it actually felt nice to be noticed. It was in a group around a nurses station and lasted all of a 1 minute conversation. But I could have gone to lunch with him. And it would have been fun. But I wouldn't do that. Because I can't hurt someone that way. I hate being the grownup.
LH- That was an amazing post to SoLost. If only we could hold onto those positive thoughts about antiversaries.
Seriously, I have no idea what I would do without LH's advise and support. She has been a lifeline.
For the life of me i can not figure out EMDR. I know I am going to smack myself in the head the second someone posts what it stands for.
I expect So Lost can relate to this. I suggested it the day or so before. H was non-committal. I suggested it on Sunday morning. I checked the weather. He said ok. Eventually, I suggested we go. We took his car. I kept thinking WTF am I bothering? He would make all those arrangements for MOW and their trysts and he canít even show enthusiasm sort a local Sunday activity with ME thatís not sport orientated. I was kind of pissed off about it. He wonít be pro-active on anything other than what he wants to do, ie golf and rugby. Iím fed up with it. He hasnít even booked a table for dinner for yonks. Iíve been waiting. I think the last time was lunch out for a single course plus a shared dessert and a couple of glasses of wine on my birthday Ė last July! Iíve suggested we go away for a short break, now that the boys are back to look after things. Yep, good idea. Nothing since. Not a glimmer of interest nor raising of the subject. Think Iíll book a singles holiday.
FNF, yes please - tell us all. We are feeding from your sessions! COUPLE is a really good acronym, like it very much. Although I have to agree with shenpal. My H did not magnify my faults, he felt he could not live up to my ďsaintlinessĒ, therefore he was low-life anyway, so having an affair was making no difference to his feelings about himself as being rather worthless. But of course, MOW was dealing with his lack of self esteem issues beautifully (I say sarcastically).
uncover for themselves the real reason for the A's
I have to ask everyday to get honesty?
My H is not particularly into porn. Yeh, he looks sometimes and deletes the history cos of the kids. But itís not really his thing. Me - I just think it's boring, where's the story line or romance?? Heís not into lap-dancing or strip clubs or prostitutes either. Heís not comfortable with viewing women in that way, as seedy or being used. He doesnít like FHM or Nuts or Playboy or even topless in newpapers cos he thinks itís degrading. (But why wasnít what MOW doing degrading??? Grrrr!)
LostH, help me out here, i might be wrong.
EMDR - Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing. Itís taking a traumatic or stressful event in the past, revisiting it and reducing or eliminating the resulting feelings related to the incident (or whatever). The patient is encouraged to ďseeĒ the images and relive them, identifying the feelings connected to the event. I think itís like watching a moving frieze of the experience without becoming involved and eventually the stress levels are reduced to an insignificant level. Someone I know who does NLP suggested it to me. But itís not really my cup of tea.
I have got more and more angry over the last couple of weeks. FWHís bfís (2nd)M is breaking up. Personally, I donít hold out much hope unless he hoicks his head out of his backside PDQ. Everything is falling apart business-wise and he feels a failure. The answer? Divorce the wife, get shot of the house and humungous mortgage before repossession (her motherís extremely weathy and would buy him out) and get rid of the biggest problem in his life Ė NOT. Fuckwit. Anyhow, she (whose name irl is the same as mine) said that if she chucked him out, her fear was that he would do the same as when he walked out of his last M (too complicated Ė donít even go there) and he would find another woman within weeks and she would never forgive herself for not fighting harder for her M. Sooooo, I said if he did do that, it meant the M really didnít mean much to him and he was gone anyway. Besides, would you really want to stay with someone so fickle, shallow and unpredictable? ÖÖ.. Fuck - I then realised I was relating exactly what my H had done, so what did that say about OUR M?
In less than four weeks he had gone from an enquiring email to full sex with the ex-gf. That was Oct 2001. In Nov/Dec, WH's BF and then wife announced they were getting Díd and he moved out into the flat. It was all connected to a brief A BF had three yrs prior. The klaxon alarms must have been screaming at WH to STOP NOW!
Then it was discovered that the (stbx)wife was having an EA (revenge) with the H of another friend of mine (I know this sounds complicated, but bear with me). The first time this friend turned up on our doorstep was in the new year, desperate for help and almost hysterical about her collapsing M, WH very kindly sat us in the lounge, fetched two glasses and a bottle of chilled wine, got a box of tissues and retreated, shutting the door quietly behind him. How COULD he carry on with the affair which was only a couple of months old??? He SAW the devastation and destruction close up. He had the wife of a colleague sobbing down the phone about her H leaving for a gold-digging piece of trash. Their kids were the same age as ours. I mean, WTF was he thinking of?
The arrogance and vanity of the man and his clever deception is breath-taking. Truly astonishing.
I do believe he has been unfaithful before and I do believe he will hook up with MOW again.
ETA - somethings didn't make sense!!!
ETA2 - actually, none of this makes sense
[This message edited by UKgirl at 12:37 PM, October 15th (Wednesday)]
Somedays it seems that there are so many issues, I just can't tackle another.
I agree that you have to pick your battles. In our situation however I will NOT let this go because I feel like it's the one thing I am controlling. Ya, he can't be sleeping around, calling OW, all the "basics"...but I feel that if I let the porn issue go than I have nothing. I don't care if we look at porn together- I really don't even care if he looks at a DVD porn- it's the fact that he was obsessed with the porn for the past few years, I think it did contribute to the A, believe it does demoralize women & sex as man & wife, and I say online only because with the DVD is is limited to what's there. No pop ups to stumble into- no live feeds, no chat rooms, no adult friend finder. not that he's done any of that- but I would like to limit is as much as possible, as much as I can which....he's really gonna do whatever he wants if he wants to bad enough so....anyways. That's where it stands.
And I had to LOL at this one:
Oh for goodness sake! Gimme that bat and Iíll whack him one! How childish can you get? Are you his head teacher of something? Itís HIS responsibility to NOT do underhand or unacceptable stuff in the first place, not for you to question his ability to BE responsible! Dimwit
How COULD he carry on with the affair which was only a couple of months old???
We had a similar situation. OW#1 and WH's friend came out after she turned up preggo. I was stunned at the news yet OW#2 and WH was here with me talking about the devestation- the pain I felt for the BS in the situation, blah blah blah. It hurts me to think about it- how disconnected WH could/can be. He said in IC this week that things were so disconnected that if he say...saw a movie about a couple or an A- his life was separate because he was "happy" with me and had no plans of us breaking up. He seriously did not have any connection between what he was doing to our M, would be doing to me, etc. Or...he CHOSE not to have that connection. How he could have sex while I was in the same house? How he could go downstairs to wake OW up and they would fondle each other then he'd return to his "normal" life seconds later. WTF am I doing here???????
UKG- Now that I've ranted as well- it's good to see you back.
How do you deal with this?
I do believe he will hook up with MOW again
I forgot to mention that I went to IC with WH on Tuesday morning. Nothing spectacular happened- She asked what I expected the outcome to be, what our relationship is like, what it was like, what my childhood was like, talked about compartmentalizing.....she seems good though.
Off to go pick up my kiddos!
I expect So Lost can relate to this
I can soooo relate to your entire post about this!! My H will just say yeah, yeah and then do nothing. But he will happily go along if I make all the plans and say let's go. but why can't he take the lead sometimes? Why can't he be the one to get excited? There is never a comment about looking forward to the weekend or anything. He says that's just him. I say it sucks.
And totally understandable rant. I could relate too when you were talking about the other guy and suddenly realized that was your H as well. It's so true. I will think or talk about a friend in sympathy b/c her husband is an a** and she doesn't see it and then I suddenly realize, oh shit, that was me.
The porn thing is something I am trying to work through in my head. H look sat it a couple times a week maybe. Off and on. He will look two days in a row and then not for two weeks sometimes or a week or whatever. And usually for about 7-10 minutes ( ). I think if we had a regular sex life that I was satisfied with, I would not care one bit. I don't like porn, but I don't feel like it's one of our big battles. I don't know, am I being naive?