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User Topic: Long Term Affairs X I I I
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 11:56 AM, October 8th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FNF -
Intimacy is the fourth phase and I think this is where many of our H's were challenged due to their FOO issues.

Thanks for this....I needed it. My H was incapable of intimacy or commitment. Intimacy was too scary to him due to FOO issues. To him intimacy meant get ready for pain. Commitment was also an issue as he was unable to give of himself. I read your response before our IC. I have to say that over the last week there has been a fundamental shift in my approach to me and this relationship. I have a feeling when I communicate this to you all, everyone will laugh knowing that this is what they have been trying to tell me all along. But, I think I just had to get there myself.

Anyway, last week I found my journals from college which showed me that the dynamics in our relationship went all the way back to the beginning. I was so sad that I hadn't been mature enough to realize what I was getting myself into. Then I started thinking about why I ever put up with any of the disrespect at all. What was I thinking? Why did I not love myself enough to say "No' to his behavior. Over the last week and two IC and MC sessions, this has been my focus and you know what I realized? MC is a waste of time right now! After explaining how I feel even our MC agreed!!! I need to figure WHY I allowed myself to be treated the way I did. I need to know WHAT I need from a relationship. My H needs to figure out if he IS capable of giving me what I need. He needs to figure out if I CAN give him what he needs. We need to, on individual basis reassess our needs and THEN decide if we belong together. I have been approaching this the WRONG way. I was working so hard to save the marriage that it never occured to me that I might not WANT to save the marriage.

So I am going to take a good hard look at myself and think about what I need and what was broken in me that didn't demand that. Then, at some point, I will decide if my H is the right person for me. I already feel like the weight of the world has been lifted from my shoulders. So now I have to find the hard answers to my self-questions. Does anybody have a cheat sheet?


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 1:59 PM, October 8th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm struggling here a bit with this ^^^ I guess I have some guilt because I read all around SI "If only he would have told me about his issues with the M, I would have done something."

Whatnow, I am going to kick some butt now.Yours.

You DID do something..you said you tried to resolve this issue; you tried to talk to him..BUT you didnt know what you were working with, did you?

My H and I had sex/intimacy problems too. HE wanted sex when he wanted it. And I had to be available. And when I was not (cos you know those babies didnt get fed or changed or put to sleep by themselves; nor did the food get cooked or the hosue cleaned by itself..must have missed that model!), he would get upset with me and I would get upset with me,and feel like a total failure. Of course it got better later on when he would give me some notice, but then that would only make me more stressed esp of the babies were taking longer to sleep or I was too tired or I just wasnt up to "whambam, thank you m'am" sex with someone who couldnt even be bothered to hold me after and maybe offer some affection, but instead would just turn over to sleep.
Of course my body image views have been well documented here, so I wont even go there now.

I, too, also asked him numerous times if he was having an A cos I wasnt available when he wanted..and he also assured me that he would NEVER do something so stupid.

We did the best we could with what we knew, Whatnow.
If H had said to you, "Look, this sex life really sucks. We need to do something or else I am going to have an A."...what would you have done?

Its is fair to accept responsibility for our part in the demise of the M; but take ownership where it is due. You were not given the full play and what was at risk, and you asked for and did not recieve what you needed (affection), yet you still tried to meet his needs. Dont be harder on yourself than you need to, Whatnow.

You also say that your H said many of his problems appear to be sex-related, which makes me wonder if anything you had done, would have been enough. When we first married, I was available body, mind and soul 24/7 to H in the naive belief that I had to do everything I could to meet his every need so that he could try to meet mine. Yet, he still went after OW. It wasnt that he wasnt getting enough sex at home or anything like that. It was to do with his own ego issues and how she manipulated him (briefly she teased him mercifully with the promise of sex yet never delivered and they carried on like this supposedly for years. He said he didnt even like her, he just wanted to fuck her). No matter what I did, no matter what I looked like, no matter what, they would have carried on..and it nothing to do with me in a sense.
It was a HUGE relief for me to accept this. And maybe as your H works through his issues with his IC, you will come to see this too.

Btw, kudos to your H for his changes. Its amazing, isnt it..and kinda sad..that they could have been like this all this time...that we could have had THIS H all this time...

***
BT

No hanking allowed, ladies

Darn it. SoL started it.


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 2:12 PM, October 8th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

everyone will laugh knowing that this is what they have been trying to tell me all along

Sweetie, no one is laughing at you; we are applauding you.
Well done!!

We also quit MC when I realised this, and we both started IC.

Unfort no cheat sheet.At least none that the "oldies" pointed out to me.

Like you, I am looking into myself, trying to figure out why I allowed myself to be treated like that for so long. I think we (IC & me) sort of have strong inkling of some of it (FOO issues of never being genuinely loved and accepted for who I am but more for what I can do/offer; never feeling safe and stable as a child; never knowing what unconditional love is; never knowing that it is ok to ask and take; always being afraid of never being good enough, of failing and disappointing etc etc).

So take a deep breath as you jump in, Shirley. My IC said that this was the hardest part. We believe in you. You have shown us so much of strength and resolve in sorting all this out.

We are with you every step of the way.


All the best, dear friend.

[This message edited by Lost Heart at 2:15 PM, October 8th (Wednesday)]


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 2:21 PM, October 8th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Heard this song (Barbara Streisand) today and it made my heart ache. But no tears..so some progress.

Memories
Light the corners of my mind
Misty watercolor memories
Of the way we were
Scattered pictures
Of the smiles we left behind
Smiles we gave to one another
For the way we were

Can it be that it was all so simple then
Or has time rewritten every line
If we had the chance to do it all again
Tell me - Would we? Could we?

Memories
May be beautiful and yet
What's too painful to remember
We simply choose to forget

So it's the laughter
We will remember
Whenever we remember
The way we were

So it's the laughter
We will remember
Whenever we remember
The way we were


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 2:29 PM, October 8th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LH and WhatNow...

My H and I had sex/intimacy problems too. HE wanted sex when he wanted it. And I had to be available. And when I was not (cos you know those babies didnt get fed or changed or put to sleep by themselves; nor did the food get cooked or the hosue cleaned by itself..must have missed that model!), he would get upset with me and I would get upset with me,and feel like a total failure.

and....I am betting you had the same issue with your Hs that I had with mine. After we were married, I never felt like he touched me unless he wanted sex. I never felt like a got a nice rub of the shoulders or a stroke on the cheek "just because". This is intimacy and he didn't want that, he wanted sex. I can feel the difference NOW. He will touch me for the sake of touching me and I know he is not "asking" for something he is just doing it. It feels sooooooo different. It makes me want to be closer to him rather than pull away from him.


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 2:36 PM, October 8th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I've been thinking about this. I truly believe my H thought he had turned a corner on his "ways" when we got married. I really believe he was 100% committed. That's the way he approaches things. He was 100% committed to the adultery too. He has been 100% committed to quitting smoking. He doesn't do anything he sets his mind to half-assed. He puts himself on a course and then burns all his bridges behind him.

So I really feel he can't go back to what he was doing. Now he doesn't see the nuances... like the phone calls to the questionable woman or the old girlfriend or lying to me about the details.

And I think intimacy is in the nuances, the details. Like (before all this crap) knowing when he held my hand and scratched my palm, that meant he wanted to make love. A neat, little thing just between the two of us that no one else could even see let alone understand.

And I can almost pinpoint when our little "things" stopped. And it was years before the affairs, when I became pregnant with our second child. He swears he wouldn't change a thing, but then, I really think it changed everything. More pressure on him, more pressure on me. The longer hours because he started his own business just as I was giving birth, so he wasn't around to bond with Baby 2, like he was with our D. Add that distance to hitting 40 and still not only not realizing his dreams, but he wasn't in any better condition than he was at 27. And putting up a front at home because he didn't want me worrying too.

I don't want to get bogged down in the "if onlys". But we had a good marriage for 12 years, a great marriage. We were clicking on all cylinders, finishing each others' sentences (and at the time thinking it was funny) and getting it right. Now that never happens.

shirley, part of what you found out is why I stopped MC too. I don't care how much you work on the bridge, if the anchors are broken, it's just not going to work.

I am going to take a good hard look at myself and think about what I need and what was broken in me that didn't demand that.
A lot of it was giving to others first, because that's what WE were taught. "Love is not selfish".... remember Corinthians?

Looking back now, the only way I see I survived those years was by being busy. Keeping too busy to notice that I didn't have a marriage. And those moments when I couldn't avoid looking at it, like our anniversaries, (except for sex) it always seemed he was there... or did I just want to believe he was there?

Why? Because I wanted the happy ending. I didn't want my marriage to be a statistic. I didn't want my kids to lose their family (and they would have). I thought everyone elses' happiness and security was more important than mine. Why? Because deep down I knew I had it, in myself. I could depend on me. I would never let me down at least morally, ethically and spiritually. Physically I let myself down. Mentally, I let myself down. But you know what? I was a good wife. A good mother. A good daughter. A terrific employee. I can look back and say I accomplished things those years... he can't.

I don't think I'll ever be intimate with him again. The gulf is too wide. He doesn't want it now and I don't trust him with my secrets. I don't want him to know what I'm thinking or doing. I don't want him to know me. He was afraid to let me know him... well, now he knows how it feels how it was on my end all those years.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
lostsuol
♀ Member
Member # 13706
Default  Posted: 3:43 PM, October 8th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hello Tribe. I'm still here... Our D-I-L has been here the last 2 wks so I've had to skim the threads and get back to 'real life'. When I'm home alone I have a hard time tearing myself away from here. My H is back to work. Half days turn to pretty much full days as his busy season kicks in. We had a setback re: email & boundaries with no time for resolution so I feel like I've been 'beating a dead horse
and he just doesn't see how serious an issue this is to me. Since his LTA was online with his seasonal co-worker I expect him to be aware but 'he just doesn't think about it' so maybe we are no further ahead in that area. And I fear that more stress could result in another EA with him not realizing it.

This whole page mirrors my thoughts in many ways. I have no insights... We aren't in MC or IC so this forum is where I try to learn and work things out.

{{{HurtShirley}}}
{{{LostHeart}}} {{{Weepy}}}

Thanks everyone for sharing here. Your posts make me look inside myself and at our marriage. The similarities amaze me.

Off to 'General'. Back later.


Posts: 808 | Registered: Feb 2007 | From: Canada
Whatnow28
♀ Member
Member # 19345
Default  Posted: 4:48 PM, October 8th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

never felt like he touched me unless he wanted sex. I never felt like a got a nice rub of the shoulders or a stroke on the cheek "just because". This is intimacy and he didn't want that, he wanted sex


HS, yup. I don't remember earlier in the relationship if he was more affectionate or not....but certainly later on his touch would infuriate me because I knew what it meant- he was horny & wanted sex. This is why I would avoid him & the sex situation at all costs. To get over that "boundary" I was well aware and had shared with him that I needed some attention & connectedness. WH said he had tried that on numerous occassions and it didn't make any difference in the frequency of sex... I remember one night long before D-day although during the A...we had gone out & I was drunk he was driving home and we got into an argument- I screamed at him the whole way about feeling unappreciated, being sick of the same ol gifts that he buys only on holidays because he's supposed to, putting no thought into gifts, attention, caring...., not being affectionate, not complimenting me, not appreciating the fact that I'm a good mother, not helping with the kids as much as I would like, etc. etc. I WENT OFF on him.

I guess it's the thought of, "that's just the way it/WH is" After d-day when we read "His needs, her needs" we worked much more on affection, and WH stresses about it because he just doesn't know how/what to do. I don't think he's done anything randomly for probably weeks or months already.

Enough rambling- sadly, this topic is hurtful too because I feel better thinking that at least WH wasn't affectionate with OW. But...he wasn't affectionate with me either so why should I be impressed, yk? The only really damaging thing there is that on the last Valentines day WH didn't get me anything. We had agreed upon that due to finances...but he did write OW a "love letter" (OW's words). That really hurts. He hadn't written me a letter in years. I'm sure he couldn't have written me a letter too because what would he say? That he was madly in love with me while fucking OW twice a week? OW told him it was the best gift he could have given and she returned the favor by giving him naked pictures of herself. This was 2 weeks prior to D-day when they were supposedly trying to stop. It hurts. Valentines hurts, Christmas sucks, monday & Friday's suck...I have 2 million triggers- they seem to be bothering me more lately since I've been in a semi depressed mood for a week.

Anyways...thanks for the feedback. It's really helpful to come on & vent & know someone else understands.

[This message edited by Whatnow28 at 4:48 PM, October 8th (Wednesday)]


ME: BW, 30 H: WH, 30 2 little boys

D-day 3/4/08 Whole "truth" from OW 3/12/08
Ow#1, 6 months PA
Ow#2, 2 years PA & EA

"It takes 3 seconds to say "I love you", 3 hours to explain it, & a lifetime to prove it".


Posts: 517 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: NE Coast
Whatnow28
♀ Member
Member # 19345
Default  Posted: 5:16 PM, October 8th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

One more thing (okay 2) I thought of after posting. WH said he actually could rationalize the A in that at least he wasn't bothering me for sex as much anymore". Funny thing is- I didn't notice any difference really- maybe just that *he* knew he had an alternate release in case we didn't have sex...but he continued to want sex from me and says he would have preferred to have sex with me, although we've also reached the conclusion that it wouldn't have mattered how many times we had had sex on a given week- If OW was willing (she was 99% of the time) then he would take advantage of that too....so it didn't matter.

A few months ago I posted in "general" about another question I have. WTF do I do with my precious once in a lifetime memories where I have OW on camcorder? For instance- DS 2nd birthday...the worse being OW and I walking DS into the hospital room to meet his baby brother and then her holding him as he saw him for the first time. I can't delete those camcorder images...yet I'm not sure I'll ever want to watch them cause I know she's on there. I haven't gone through all my tapes- I'm sure she's on many more but those are 2 events that I've checked and I don't know how to get her out. Any ideas? Am I stuck with them? How do I deal with that? I'm going to have to exlpain to DS when he is an adult who this other woman was walking him into the room to meet his brother.

[This message edited by Whatnow28 at 5:30 PM, October 8th (Wednesday)]


ME: BW, 30 H: WH, 30 2 little boys

D-day 3/4/08 Whole "truth" from OW 3/12/08
Ow#1, 6 months PA
Ow#2, 2 years PA & EA

"It takes 3 seconds to say "I love you", 3 hours to explain it, & a lifetime to prove it".


Posts: 517 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: NE Coast
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 5:56 PM, October 8th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have often said that the only thing worse than what I have been dealing with is if there had been a child. The second worst would have been if I'd known her and she me.

I mean, I MAY know one, but I haven't seen her for 15 years and she wasn't "inner circle". I don't know if people can be photoshopped out of pictures and eleminated from videos. There is a LOT that can be manipulated on film now.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
Whatnow28
♀ Member
Member # 19345
Default  Posted: 6:50 PM, October 8th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LH- Thanks for the ass kicking. I've been thinking about what you said:

You DID do something..you said you tried to resolve this issue; you tried to talk to him..BUT you didnt know what you were working with, did you?

If H had said to you, "Look, this sex life really sucks. We need to do something or else I am going to have an A."...what would you have done


If he would have come to me (WH & I talked about this the other day actually) I would have been devestated...but would have been willing to work with him to "fix" the problem- probably MC or IC for me & the sex issues. WH & I discussed how different this options would have left us...such a sad thought.

I guess the conclusion that I have come up with to my stress about my faults within the marriage & not listening to his problems is that I couldn't fix anything on my own. There were times I talked to him about being more affectionate which would lead to sex...but he never helped me make the changes. I am not 100% confident in this (I feel another ass kickign coming) in that I still feel like I could have done more- know I could have done more...but I'm not sure it would have mattered because WH would have needed to be working *with* me and I'm not sure that would have happened. My other thought there is that it seems like his A started before a lot of big problems started. DS was only 4 months old when his A started. I NEVER EVER would have imagined if he were to have an A it would have been that long ago when we were newly married & starting a family. *sigh*


ME: BW, 30 H: WH, 30 2 little boys

D-day 3/4/08 Whole "truth" from OW 3/12/08
Ow#1, 6 months PA
Ow#2, 2 years PA & EA

"It takes 3 seconds to say "I love you", 3 hours to explain it, & a lifetime to prove it".


Posts: 517 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: NE Coast
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 6:10 AM, October 9th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My H and I were affectionate to a degree without the expectation of sex. If we visited friends, we'd sit together, his arm around me or each have a hand on each other's thighs. A good friend of ours used to call us "Donny and Marie" because we were sooooo cute together.

H said that I didn't respond to his "signals" that he wanted sex. Turns out his "signals" were grabbing my tits or ass while I was making dinner or cleaning up the dishes. Yeah, like most wives and mothers, I had second jobs at home after working FT. BUT since I was the one who initiated sex in our relationship like 70% of the time anyway, and he seemed fine, I know that his "signal" crap was a rationalization.

I liked sex. I can remember turning him down if I was menstruating heavy or sick. Other than that, no. I used to joke with his BILs that it must be a "family thing" because I wasn't 'getting it' either. I felt like a freak. The only woman I knew who's husband didn't want sex with her. And no body ever even hinted to me "hey, maybe he's getting it somewhere else".

Now I'm saying I never turned it down, but I'm not saying it was good. I do know that I had trouble right after the hysterectomy and it was the cherry on top of his issues. No sex at home while everything else was going in the toilet too. His body, his business, his kids' futures. And after he started he didn't want sex with me for the guilt issues, anger issues (had to blame someone for what he was doing - Not him for sure). OK I get that. Don't like it, but have accepted that's how he felt at the time. Totally bogus, but it was HIS perception of reality.

Now there's one aspect I CAN'T wrap my head around. And it's because the behavior is so hypocritical that it infuriates me and it's reared it's ugly head again.

You all know I had some sort of 24 hour virus Monday into Tuesday. Tuesday night I was fine and because I know how my H is about "germs" I disinfected the entire house on Tuesday when I came home from work. Changed the sheets, washed his blankets, my robe, our couch blankets, the keyboard and mouse, phone, etc.

Last night I went to snuggle with him while watching tv an got the "eew, take your germy self away from me". I assured him I was fine and he responded with "Germs can hang around for a week." Now, I could feel the A darkness creeping in at the edges at this point, but I took a deep breath and made a joke ( our DD was in the room ) but moved to the other end of the couch and covered myself with a blanket. He said "see, that proves you're still sick, you're never wrapped up in a blanket, you're always warm unless you're sick." My response at this point was "whatever".

I can't seem to get my head around the hypocracy. He fucked PROSTITUES for crying out loud. Women he didn't even know... who could have been in the clinic THAT MORNING getting their HIV treatment or having their Herpes breakout checked or just come off antibiotics for thrush or the mange, who the hell knows. He performed the most intimate acts with these women and yet, with me, with the kids, a cold or even a sneeze will have him wanting to go sleep in a hotel. FUCK! I WAS doing well. He hadn't been exihibiting A behavior, he no longer "disappears", he even seems to have his anger under control and his criticism of the way I do things just rolls off my back and he stops (which is new). But this.... this I can't fathom, I am furious, raging inside.

So today if he calls I'm going to ask him if he isn't actually wearing one of the shirts I washed and TOUCHED yesterday while I was still "covered in germs". Oh and he's using the cell phone he asked me to take upstairs to the charger. Wow, that's even getting close to his MOUTH.

I'll say it again.... FUCK!


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 7:14 AM, October 9th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Weepy, your post has given me a thought that maybe you discussed in another post but I might have missed. I was wondering if your H ever got tested for STD's. It just struck me with his totally irritating comment about you being "germy" that it might have been a projection comment. He feels dirty. He feels "germy" knowing who he was with all those years. His pushing you away when you try to initiate sex - is it possible this is some sort of projection too??? If he has always been this way, "I know how my H is about 'germs'", imagine how dirty and possibly even freaked he feels now. Imagine trying to bury those feelings. I can't help but wonder if his avoidance of sex has a lot to do with trying to avoid and bury those feelings.
I think it's possible that last night's comment was more about how he feels about himself than about your being sick. He is one sorry guy, IMHO.

[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 7:18 AM, October 9th (Thursday)]


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 7:33 AM, October 9th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

fnf, he's always been that way. One of his "favorite" conversations when we travel is what establishment "gets" the bathroom thing (door needs to open outward, so you don't have a handle to touch after you've washed up). BTW - most don't "get" it.

I used to get fever blisters and he would not kiss me. His mother had the same virus and he felt lucky he got away with not catching it from her, he wasn't about to catch it from me. Sex was off the table if he even suspected I might have some "bump" on my lip. And last year I went through a short bout of them, but we weren't having sex then. Don't think I didn't fantasize about going down on him in his sleep and giving him what he feared the most.

See, he doesn't seen any need to figure out this issue. He was with the hookers and at the time he "didn't think" about it. Why? Because he couldn't and still get sex. When OW came along, I'm sure part of it was relief that he didn't have to take those risks any more.

He got STD testing AFTER Dday. He lied and said he'd had it done twice during the affair period at some "clinic" and through a "mail order test." Both lies were revealed in MC and admitted. I wasn't even sure that when I sent him to the doctor that he actually had the tests done, so I made him sign the HIPPA form that would allow the office to reveal results to me. I took the phone call from their office. I didn't even trust him to tell me if anything came back positive.

See, also, the period between ending his affairs (which ended with the prostitutes again) and resuming our sex life was his "test" period. If nothing showed up, he figured he was clean. He even used that argument when I insisted on the tests being done for both of us... "if nothing's shown up in 4 years, we've got nothing to worry about." Talk about your river in Egypt!

Now he's just getting back to his old self. And I hate that I feel like the leper.

He texted me "You ok?" and I wrote back "NO. I am struggling with something past-related and can't talk about it now." So I should be rejoicing that he even noticed, but he doesn't want to hear about the details of why I'm struggling or if he can do anything.

He can't DO anything. Nothing can change what he did. His reasons for doing what he did aren't going to change. It'll just go back to the old "it was different then. It's different because this is the way I've always been. THAT was the anomoly."

But it doesn't make it any easier to swallow. And whether it's his projection that he feels dirty, I doubt it. He's "redeemed" in his eyes. I asked for some advice up in Recon.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
So Lost
♀ Member
Member # 16801
Default  Posted: 7:41 AM, October 9th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Whatnow, that sounds awesome! Sounds like he is really trying. My H use to come home totally stoked from IC, but anymore he doesn't really talk about what they talk about.

It's funny, I think once you get past a certain point, they don't really talk about the affair with us as much anymore. I mean, it all relates back. But it's different. I don't know if that's good or bad.

I was working so hard to save the marriage that it never occurred to me that I might not WANT to save the marriage

HS, seriously, I have been thinking a lot about this lately as well. Should I be working this hard simply b/c he decided to stay? Is that my whole reasoning? And then I balance that with religious views where I do really believe marriage is sacred, although I feel okay if I decided to divorce. I feel like he has given me a valid reason, I just don't know whether to use it or not. I am so impressed that you are really acting on this and trying to figure it out. It must feel wonderful to have that weight off your shoulders!!

LH said

If H had said to you, "Look, this sex life really sucks. We need to do something or else I am going to have an A."...what would you have done?
I wonder this a lot. If I had investigated, allowed myself to see all the signs that are so clear now, what would I have done? Would any of us have reacted differently? I think my marriage would have ended. I was in the house that I had built and could afford and my frame of mind would have given him the boot. But would that have been the right future? I have to assume no since we are here now.

don't think I'll ever be intimate with him again. The gulf is too wide. He doesn't want it now and I don't trust him with my secrets. I don't want him to know what I'm thinking or doing. I don't want him to know me. He was afraid to let me know him... well, now he knows how it feels how it was on my end all those years.
Weepy, this makes me so sad.

((((Whatnow)))) I cannot imagine how painful that would be. The hope would be that one day you can watch those and just see the beautiful children. Although I have a terrible relationship (ok, NO relationship) with my dad and I hate looking at videos from my daughters birth or even my wedding album b/c he is in them. I hope it gets better for you.

(((Weepy)))) If I think about things too much, they just make no sense. And your H and this germ thing makes no sense as well. Probably even to him. It must make you crazy.

I just feel really done. I don't know how much more I can put in to this. Yesterday I came home from work and on the way home burst in to tears. i just got visions of them again and it was physically painful. I have not had those 'flashes' in months. It was awful. H asked me if I was okay when I was home. I said it was just a bad day and went out and played with the kids outside. He came out and tried to participate but I just wanted nothing to do with him. He came up form behind and hugged me at one point and kissed my cheek to try and make me feel better and that was nice, but I think I just feel numb.

And hey, I may have started the hanking but LH kept it going!


Me: BS
Wh: WS
Dday 10/28/07
LTA with coworker
Attempting Reconciliation
he is remorseful, I am willing, we'll see what happens

Posts: 671 | Registered: Oct 2007
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 7:49 AM, October 9th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

HS - I wanted to join LH in saying we applaud you - we would never laugh - you are working so hard and dealing with issues that are so complex. You are in a fight to save yourself and your family. We are here to cheer you on and be a sounding board if you need us. We think you're great!
I hope it's ok to ask but I was wondering what it was that your H was doing during the early years that made you feel like you didn't love yourself enough.
I guess the reason I'm asking this is because I always thought that my H's negativity or bad humor was not a reflection on me but was due to his own inability to deal with the frustrations and pressures in his daily life. I'd simply walk away, mutter a profanity under my breath and go on with my day. If he wanted to pick a fight, a lot of times I'd tell him to go find another boxing partner because I had no interest in a battle. Because my H came from a very aggressive, critical and argumentative family, I almost never took his behavior personally. I got pissed, angry and frustrated but I always believed it was him and his problem with coping. And, as I've said many times, I knew how to take care of me.
So, what I guess I'm asking is how was your situation different. If your H was critical, harsh, or moody, did you internalize this and blame yourself? Did you try harder to please him only to feel more that your efforts were in vain (because we all know now we never could have made them happy, IMO)?
I always looked at my H as a class A ass when he acted up. I never internalized his negativity. When we were married I had not yet completed my college degree and with him being a professional, he constantly tried to put me down by saying things like, "I didn't know you were so smart" whenever we were in an argument. I basically said "fuck you buddy," went back to school and graduated summa cum laude - and received an award for graduating with the highest grade point average for a part-time student. Every A I received, every 4.0 I achieved, I put in front of him and he quickly changed his tone. I knew I was smart, I felt good about myself as a mother, daughter, sister, friend, etc. I had/have great relationhips. His were a disaster. I wasn't the only one he couldn't get along with and because I knew this, it was easy for me to shake off any criticism of me.
You said your H's FOO is very messed up. I would assume his relationships all around are pretty unsuccessful. Other than you, has he ever had someone who has stayed with him in a relationship over the long haul? Other than his brother, my H has not and, to me, this is very telling. I brought this up to him a few months ago during one of my rages. I challenged him to tell me who the hell ever wanted to stay in a long-term relationship with him? I did feel bad because I realized I hit a very sensitive area.
I guess the point I am trying to make in my usual long-winded way is that these men have never been good at relationships and we are just one among many of their failed associations.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 8:00 AM, October 9th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You want to hank me, Solost??
I dont know what to say...
"Errr, this is just so sudden. I didnt know you felt that way


LH - that was hysterical. That's for a great laugh.
BTW, how is UKG? I have been worried about her since you posted that she is going through a rough time. Send her some hugs for me.
You are sounding great, btw. I know you are still struggling, but you sound stronger and more determined to take care of yourself. Way to go, LH. I applaud you too!

[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 8:01 AM, October 9th (Thursday)]


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
weepy
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Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 8:09 AM, October 9th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If H had said to you, "Look, this sex life really sucks. We need to do something or else I am going to have an A."...what would you have done?

Well, I can attest to actually having this 'conversation' with H. We had a terrible sex situation after my hysterectomy. I was in pain, confused, depressed about how my body was responding to sex then. He actually got out of bed and told me "OK, if I'm causing you so much pain, I will never touch you again. I'm through, no more sex." What did I do? I cried, I begged, I told him I'd see doctors (and I did), but he was having none of it. He was Sooooo angry. And now I think he probably had already made up his mind anyway to go to the prostitutes, and that last time was probably just "one more go at it to see if anything's changed." When it hadn't, he was already down the slope and merrily headed "downtown". His mind was already made up, so I think if a spouse said that to the other, they had already got someone lined up for it and if the conversation didn't end up JUST LIKE THEY WANTED, the affair would have happened anyway.

The second time.... We had a terrible fight about a year before Dday. H walked out and said he wanted a divorce. No more talking, he was done (now I know he 'thought' he'd returned and was being a model husband and I wasn't appreciating him -- gee after 9 years on my own at that point, I didn't notice). Anyway I said "I don't want you to leave, can we talk about whatever the issue is?" When he said no that he'd be out at the end of the week, I wrote him notes begging him to talk to me, he ripped all of them up. I just accepted that it was it, but went on making dinners (which he came home for), slept in our bed, and at the end of the week asked him if he was going to be there when I got home that night. When he said he didn't want to leave, we sat and talked about all the things that had been bugging us about our M. Years of resentment and fears, sex, money, child rearing, nothing was left out, and within a month, we were like lovebirds again. It started the MOST wonderful year of our M. Then it all went to hell the next September.

So it's my take that if the conversation EVER includes an "affair" clause, it's too late. The affair mentality has taken over and it will happen.

I always thought that my H's negativity or bad humor was not a reflection on me but was due to his own inability to deal with the frustrations and pressures in his daily life. I'd simply walk away, mutter a profanity under my breath and go on with my day. If he wanted to pick a fight, a lot of times I'd tell him to go find another boxing partner because I had no interest in a battle. Because my H came from a very aggressive, critical and argumentative family, I almost never took his behavior personally. I got pissed, angry and frustrated but I always believed it was him and his problem with coping.

I did too until he started to make it personal. Suddenly all his frustrations, everything that was wrong with his life was because of ME, what I did, what I said, how I acted, raising the kids, my lack of intelligence. When he pouted or picked a fight or ranted about the world in general or other people, yes, I figured it was his problem. When he woke up one day and all those issues were because of ME, that's when it turned in our household. Hey I knew I wasn't perfect, he really, really made me feel like I was ruining his life. So I tried to fix it. And spent years scrambling to fix a problem I wasn't even aware of. How do you fix that your H is having secret affairs?

I always looked at my H as a class A ass when he acted up. I never internalized his negativity.

This realization has saved my life.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
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Default  Posted: 11:15 AM, October 9th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I always wish I had the discussion about sex (or no sex to be more accurate) with my H during those years. I was always so worried I would offend his male ego. I thought it was best to just be "sensitive"
to his lack of interest and assumed it was his age. I can't tell you how many times over these last few years I have tormented myself with "if only." If only I would not have accepted this. If only I had insisted on sex therapy. If only I had pushed him to tell me what the real issue was. If only I had insisted on MC'ing. Too many regrets that don't solve anything. This is where we are and now I have to work on what I can change or do something about.
I agree with you though Weepy that once they went down that path we would have met with a great deal of resistance but I still wish sometimes that I could know the answer to that.
I sometimes ask myself too why I didn't push him. Was it really just to protect his male ego or had I lost interest too? Or was I relieved that "we had moved on to more important things" - my H's famous line to me during those years.
Let's face it, they weren't the only ones bored in the bedroom. After so many years of M, it becomes routine. It loses the spark of the early years. I often think about hysterical bonding - it's a renewal of those early years together and it's great but once that passes, you're back into a more realistic, comfortable sex life (or at least I feel that way). Does anyone ever get to live an entire married life of 10, 20, 30, 40 years together with hot and heavy passion? I'd love to know.
So maybe I was glad at the end of a long day not to have him climb on top of me. Maybe I was just so happy to be free of responsibility of trying to make him happy (no easy task) that I welcomed this (except on those rare, horny days ). That's where I'm at in this discussion. No answers just pondering.

[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 11:24 AM, October 9th (Thursday)]


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 11:27 AM, October 9th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I hope it's ok to ask but I was wondering what it was that your H was doing during the early years that made you feel like you didn't love yourself enough.

My H had a very serious problem with alcohol. Both of his parents were alcoholics. His brother abused both alcohol and drugs (to the point were he recently had a liver transplant!!). My H had a pattern of going out for a “night with the guys” or, later, “ a business meeting” that would turn into a complete drunkfest and lead to him arriving home hours and hours after he said he would be home. I would be wreck worried about him; whether or not he was in a ditch. Obviously, after the kids came along, I thought the behavior would cease. NOPE. Matter of fact, I had to put our oldest into a carseat and 2 am when she was barely a year old to go bail him out after he got pulled over on DUI after one of these “business dinners”. I would get so mad, I would yell and shout and call him all kinds of names. He would act remorseful, be “good” for a while and then do it again. This has been going on throughout our ENTIRE relationship and I was SO FUCKING STUPID I thought it would change. This behavior (staying out late, not calling, coming in drunk) is what led to our blowup in August 2007 which, in turn, led to his confession. Why did I put up with it? Why did I think it was going to change? Why didn’t I throw his sorry ass out? I had the better job, better degress, better etc. Why did I need him? Why was I so insecure?

You said your H's FOO is very messed up. I would assume his relationships all around are pretty unsuccessful. Other than you, has he ever had someone who has stayed with him in a relationship over the long haul?

Nope, nobody. He was essentially abandoned by his mother at birth for booze and cigarettes. His older sister raised him but she eloped at 18 to escape the hellhole that was his family effectively abandoning my H at the age of 12. He said he has never recovered from that. So, here is an interesting twist. We were very close in college – I would even call it intimate. But, he graduated before I did and we had to do the long distance thing. He now says he felt abandoned by me then and he threw up the walls to keep from getting hurt. So, why ask me to get married? Why bother with me at all? My IC TODAY thinks that he NEEDS me to try to be a normal person. She is very confident given his FOO issues, his lifetime of deceit, his ability to split his life effectively for such a long time that he is not even close to normal even after a YEAR of 2x/week therapy. She is very worried that I will get sucked back into any kind of relationship with him and I will just end up getting hurt again. I really like this new IC. She is very smart and she seems to “get” me but today she was basically telling me that I need to get OUT for my own sanity. If I stay, I will only be hurt again. He is too broken to give he can only take and hurt. I asked her “how long” would it take for someone like him to be fixed?” and she said if it was possible at ALL it would take years and years. FUCK! Guess I have my answer.

The problem is it is not the answer I want. I want this to work. I want him to be not broken. I want my kids to have 2 parents. I know I sound like a spoiled two year old but I do NOT WANT this to happen to ME!!!!

So, FNF, you asked…..


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

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