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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Long Term Affairs X I I I
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Default  Posted: 7:01 PM, August 26th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

New Thread

Posts: 10000 | Registered: May 2002
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 7:41 PM, August 26th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey, where did everybody go? Who wants to start decorating?


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
Whatnow28
♀ Member
Member # 19345
Default  Posted: 7:42 PM, August 26th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think some new stylish lighting would be nice- to set the mood you know...


ME: BW, 30 H: WH, 30 2 little boys

D-day 3/4/08 Whole "truth" from OW 3/12/08
Ow#1, 6 months PA
Ow#2, 2 years PA & EA

"It takes 3 seconds to say "I love you", 3 hours to explain it, & a lifetime to prove it".


Posts: 517 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: NE Coast
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 7:45 PM, August 26th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WhatNow...we need a theme. Since I have been a "member" we have done spas, cruise ships, beaches, lovely homes with cushy sofas, etc. Since you got this going I think you should have a hand in the decision making. Get creative...


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
Whatnow28
♀ Member
Member # 19345
Default  Posted: 7:46 PM, August 26th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hhmmm....what could I think of that would NOT be a trigger? I'm about to respond to today's insight...but I'll try to think of a theme tonight too.


ME: BW, 30 H: WH, 30 2 little boys

D-day 3/4/08 Whole "truth" from OW 3/12/08
Ow#1, 6 months PA
Ow#2, 2 years PA & EA

"It takes 3 seconds to say "I love you", 3 hours to explain it, & a lifetime to prove it".


Posts: 517 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: NE Coast
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 7:48 PM, August 26th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I couldn't care less but we have to have the following...comfy robes, nice open windows, wine, chocolate and fruit on call. I like cabana boys but that's just me. Anybody have any ideas? Where are LostH, FSA and UKgirl when we need them?


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
lostsuol
♀ Member
Member # 13706
Default  Posted: 7:52 PM, August 26th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Any place that 'takes me away' is fine with me. Am I the only 'stitcher' in the group? I'd like unlimited supplies for when I want to block everything else out. Just a thought... cuz I don't have any wisdom for the thread/theme running right now. I am giving it some thought though.

Posts: 808 | Registered: Feb 2007 | From: Canada
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 7:55 PM, August 26th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BT and FNF - I am more in the FNF camp. I had three wonderful older sisters and a great mom. I basically had 4 moms. Yes, my dad was a little distant but I think it was just his generation. He showed his loved by providing for us.

I knew intimacy and, oddly, when EO and I first met, I think he experienced intimacy for the first time. Then we went through the whole long distance thing while we pursued careers in different cities and that is when things changed. He wasn't the same and I let it go. I knew it, I felt it but I thought that once we were married and together again that things would go back the way they were. They never did. Actually, there were brief glimpses of the old relationship but not sustained periods. In addition, the disrespect had ballooned. Again, I thought it would change or, worse yet, I could make him change. Didn't know or get the Serenity prayer at all at that point.

So I knew very early on in our married life together that something had shifted and I thought I could make it better. I did struggle to make him less disrespectful. I struggled to be the person that would make him happy. I never thought of leaving, I just wanted him to change.

This was BEFORE we had kids, homes, etc...I could have walked away free and clear but I loved him. What I realize now is that I loved him more than I loved or respected myself. As BT said, I know I will be working on that for a long time.

I didn't really build a separate life for myself. I just kept giving. I kept isolating myself. I nested with the kids which I now realize was probably not very healthy for them. That is not their role - friend and partner.


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 7:59 PM, August 26th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Okay, if no one else is going to do this, I'll start....

I love horses...have we had a ranch yet. Not a grubby, smelly ranch but a wonderful HUGE log cabin in the mountains near a crystal lake. There are giant fireplaces so big you could walk in them and they are on all the time. We can smell the fresh mountain air, the scent of pine and hear the wind whistle in the trees.

At night, with the windows open, we can hear the horses whinnying. Of course, in my fantasy, there are about 20 dogs of various sizes all over the place, sleeping at my feet while I read a book. Oh, there are the hunkiest men you have ever seen waiting to cater to our every need.

Anybody want to join in?

ETA: okay...if no one else is going to join in these are our digs. So Giant (I am talking 20k sq ft) log cabin in the woods on a mountain top. In front is the meadow...HUGE wooden deck looking over the meadow, down the hill to the lake which is perfect for swimming. The horses are in the meadow down by the stables where the stable boys are.

Inside think dark panelling in the library with every book you ever wanted when you want it. Large oversize leather chairs with ottomans so we can put up our feet in front of the fire.

In the great hall there are 40 ft ceiling with exposed beams. Wood accents but cream walls. The side toward the lack is all french doors going out onto the deck with rocking chairs all across the deck. Living room has overstuffed furniture, oriental rugs and dogs everywhere. Christ, you have to move a dog to sit down!

The kitchen is stocked to the hilt with side by side double sub-zeros with every food and drink imaginable. You can toddle in yourself to make something or you can have "Pablo" do it for you. Pablo can cook and dance. We like Pablo.

The dining room can seat 4 or 40 depending on who shows up that night. Lots and lots of candles in silver candelsticks. Deep red walls and above the fireplace a mirror to reflect all the light.

Each of us has our own bedroom decorated to our taste. You pick what you want.

Finally, in the downstairs is a huge gym with a trainer, a masseuse, and a mini-spa because we need those toes to look good when they aren't in our riding boots.

I'm off to the kitchen to find Pablo to make me something to eat and do the tango.

[This message edited by hurtshirley at 8:25 PM, August 26th (Tuesday)]


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
Whatnow28
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Member # 19345
Default  Posted: 8:28 PM, August 26th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WS's begin a pattern of neglect and disregard long before the A begins

I guess I'm trying to figure out which came first- the chicken or the egg?? I have read letters from when we were dating and I had an issue with not having sex as frequently then...so it has been a long term issue. I take my responsibility in creating a distance in that area of our relationship...and believe that a lot of it stems from my past. I became sexual active at a very young age and realized quickly that boys were using me for sex & I didn't need/want that. I had a long term relationship, in high school prior to my relationship with WH and cheated on that boyfriend for a long time. I think what I'm seeing is that I am interested in sex only when I feel like I'm getting the adequate focus & attention. Sadly, the person I was cheating with gave me the attention although it wasn't a positive relationship. So....this all bring me to, which happened first? Is WH just naturally distannt due to childhood or whatnot & thus created me to be less interested in sex because I never felt like the "obsession"? Or....is it me that created this long term distance which helped WH get to where he is? I don't know.

How else could they live double lives if they didn't put some distance between themselves and their spouse? They chose every day to shut us out, to treat us as if we were insane, insecure, or overly sensitive. They denied us sexually, we were cheated. We wanted, asked, sometimes begged for attention, for answers and for sex but we were dismissed

My WH didn't do any of the above except he had to have created distance between us. He clearly kept innapropriate conversation from me that was happening with OW#1 which led to the slippery slope & initial A.

Our needs were continually left unmet. After months or maybe years you stop trying. You begin to believe it is all in your head. You think these are the new ground rules for the M and then you decide to make a life of your own

I did at times- through our M and during the A discuss with WH a want to become more affection or more sexual, or spend more time together, etc. etc. I would bring stuff up...more & more as time went on since things were decreasing...and nothing ever changed. Then again- i'm not sure how much of it was me not following through or the fact that I never felt like he was on "board" and I couldn't do it alone. I did accept our relationship as the "norm" of 2 full time working people with 2 young children. I used to encourage WH by saying....it's normal to struggle the years of young children in the home so if we can get past this...we'll make it. Of course, I had no idea he's been having an A since our 1st was 4 months old.

Our MC discussed the above issue last week and I said...."but what about when the lack in the M is so slow that it just becomes the norm?" I was bringing up issues here & there to work on but didn't see it as a "bad" M.


so....that all leads me to think about this:

that the amount of intimacy that exists in a relationship is there because it is what both partners feel comfortable with at heart, even if one or both may decry it out loud.

A few weeks ago WH & I were talking about how we both came from families that lacked emotional connection. his parents were staying together for the kids- they were unhappy and his dad was very authoritarian and never showed any emotion- he was also emotional abuse towards his mom.
My parents separated when I was in 5th grade, and I lived with my Dad (my mom moved out of state for years)- my sisters are older and had already moved out. It seems like I had years of spending time in my room while my dad watched tv alone. That was how I became interested in boys and sex at a young age. My dad is a wonderful man...but I don't think he knew how to handle a divorce, being single, and raising a young girl on his own. So....maybe WH & I are both emotionally detached.? Maybe THIS is why it's hard for me to be sexually intimate.... I for years have made every excuse to not have sex regularly- not feeling comfortable, gotta tend to the kids, too tired, no time in the morning, watching tv, gotta do chores, can't settle my brain....ANYTHING really. We would have time of more sex...they would vary but it has been a long term issue.

Over time, I just stopped asking for any kind of emotional relationship with him and looked to girlfriends for emotional support and intimacy.

Now for the most bizarre twist...after OW moved into our home, SHE became my support. She helped with the kids, she would listen to me & respond when I spoke...she would laugh at things the kids did, she seemed interested in doing things with the kids....and all the time she was fucking him! WTF?
I have thought for a long time that WH isn't "happy". I would always feel like he had a negative/pessimistic attitude...then again, not sure how much of that was a result of the A or already present.

He is a workaholic, so that was his entire life and I was no longer a part of it.

My WH too. Our MC thinks he is an over-achiever and then it becomes too stressful and starts to self-destruct ie: A.

So...now that I've written a book all about MYSELF....I should go hide. I feel like this thread gets me thinking of a new aspect everyday and I am trying to figure out SO much about my WH & myself and I'm not sure which way is up.


One more thing....how do you know if you're seeing true remorse? What does that look like?


ME: BW, 30 H: WH, 30 2 little boys

D-day 3/4/08 Whole "truth" from OW 3/12/08
Ow#1, 6 months PA
Ow#2, 2 years PA & EA

"It takes 3 seconds to say "I love you", 3 hours to explain it, & a lifetime to prove it".


Posts: 517 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: NE Coast
Whatnow28
♀ Member
Member # 19345
Default  Posted: 8:30 PM, August 26th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Do we have a hot tub? Off to go proof read my "book"


ME: BW, 30 H: WH, 30 2 little boys

D-day 3/4/08 Whole "truth" from OW 3/12/08
Ow#1, 6 months PA
Ow#2, 2 years PA & EA

"It takes 3 seconds to say "I love you", 3 hours to explain it, & a lifetime to prove it".


Posts: 517 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: NE Coast
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 8:33 PM, August 26th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We do now.

Are you writing a book?


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
Whatnow28
♀ Member
Member # 19345
Default  Posted: 8:36 PM, August 26th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Not really- I was just referring to my post that was a "book"

Thanks for the hot tub, I've always wanted one.


ME: BW, 30 H: WH, 30 2 little boys

D-day 3/4/08 Whole "truth" from OW 3/12/08
Ow#1, 6 months PA
Ow#2, 2 years PA & EA

"It takes 3 seconds to say "I love you", 3 hours to explain it, & a lifetime to prove it".


Posts: 517 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: NE Coast
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 8:36 PM, August 26th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

A ranch sounds absolutely lovely. Long rides in green meadows and up mountainsides to blue skies.

Love it.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 8:48 PM, August 26th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow, HS, I like the new digs!
Great job. Did I tell you I was in Colorado in July. Now it wasn't 20k sq. ft but it was beautiful and it was on top of the mountain. Breathtaking really. Scary as hell too.
So, I'm liking our new place and for the record, I am adopting the English Springer Spaniel - I think I'll call him Snuggles.
Now HS, when you're done with Pablo, come sit with us a spell and bring along one of those great bottles of wine I know you have stored somewhere.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 8:56 PM, August 26th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FNF - shit! I forgot the wine cellar. We have a wine cellar too! I love Jordan and Heitz Cab. so I know they are stocked. Some bottles of Conundrum and Mer de Soleil for the white wine drinkers. And nice champagne (Veuve Cliquot is my fave) for when we need to celebrate our small victories.

I would love to hear about your trip. This "location" was inspired by a trip we took a couple of summers ago to a ranch in Western Canada and by a place a friend of ours has in Idaho. Did you ride a lot? I love riding. I can't think about the LTAs at a full gallop!

ETA: the yellow lab is mine. She sleeps on my feet when I read and she loves going for long walks in the woods. Have to think of a name that one of my real life dogs has not had...hmmmm.

[This message edited by hurtshirley at 9:00 PM, August 26th (Tuesday)]


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 9:12 PM, August 26th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

once in love - I didn't get to welcome you earlier. I barely skimmed the last 3 pages of our last thread, but you said:

I ask myself every day how I could settle for a marriage almost completely devoid of emotional intimacy. So many lost years. I'm just sick with grief and fury.

The lost years still can make me fall down on the floor with grief. I keep thinking about how he gave them the years when he was strong and virile and actually HAD an interest in sex. I'm so jealous sometimes I could spit. My IC keeps reminding me they were "fucks" and that's all. But it doesn't help.

I can't say I loved my lifestyle and stayed for that. We struggled. H was and is an extreme money-worrier. If I had known that thousands of $ were being wasted on prostitutes instead of taking his kids to the shore or Disney.... well, there are things I just can't forgive.

I too was one of the "it will get better, it has to, it can't get any worse" crowd. If I'd known what I was doing to our kids and myself...

I have GOT to stop with the "what ifs".

WS's begin a pattern of neglect and disregard long before the A begins

In 1987 I got pregnant with our second child. When I was 5 mo. pregnant, he left a secure job and went into business for himself. He did discuss it with me, but he had already made up his mind. I was 110% behind him and thought he'd be a success with both of us working on it. Of course, it meant 12 hour days, me taking a PT job to carry more of the financial load. Four years later, I told my H I was burnt out, I needed a break, I wanted to quit my FT job and stay home with the kids. Day care was killing us, I was basically working to pay the babysitters. He said "no, that I'd had my chance to stay home with baby #1 and I had chosen to go back to work. That was it. WE couldn't afford the medical insurance and being the practical one I stayed at work. I think I started resenting him right then. I watched him stay home on rainy days, never taking the kids those days because he always had "something" to do. THen I got sick. I wasn't taking care of myself, wasn't watching symptoms and wound up with a hysterectomy at 39 yo.

Do you know about a week ago he said something like "You probably didn't even need it." Like two doctors didn't tell me I did. That an ovary wasn't so cyst ridden that it exploded at work and the other looked just as bad under the ultrasound. The uterus was taken because, why keep it, the ovaries were what was important. I can't believe it, now my surgery is even my fault. He was there in the doctors' office when he told me. He didn't voice any concern THEN, just like me figured they knew what they were talking about. He denies being there.

I have decided that I need to finish this book on abusive relationships. I'm positive I'm still in one and I need to get out.

You'll love this one FnF. Last night a friend told him his M was breaking up. And he was selling his house, but his wife (could be common law) wanted half the proceeds even though she never worked. I told my H that she could get it, even if it didn't seem fair. He said I was WRONG. That the H could prove she never financially contributed to the relationship. That he bought the house and then had her added to the deed later which proves she wasn't in on the buy. I told him if he was married to her when he bought it (he's not sure if they were or were just separated or divorced) that any asset acquired during the marriage is split. She will get something out of the sale.

He says... "If I go out and buy a house and put it in my name and we split up, it's mine." I told him "No, if it was acquired during the M, then it is community property, no matter who's name it's in." Using HIS logic, I don't have to worry about the 401K. He NEVER contributed to that. The credit union accounts are in MY name. Guess they're mine too. I offered him signature authority after Dday, but he never did the paperwork. The $10k I took out of my IRA for my tummy tuck and sits in our joint account is mine too. And I can argue that this house was mine first too. It was in my name for about a year until we refinanced because he couldn't get approved for a loan, his credit was that bad.

I may not be too badly off financially after all. I'd split the house proceeds with him, but according to you, I can get more than 50%, especially if I can prove abuse. I don't have to go far to prove the infidelity.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
forgivenotforget
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Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 9:16 PM, August 26th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We didn't get to go riding. We were visiting family and they had plans set up in advance so we "went with the flow." We did go white water rafting, hiking and spent a day at the Black Canyon - very cool.
The drive back and forth from their home is an adventure in itself since the road is built into the mountainside. I was scared shitless every time but thrilled to. It is really a skiing town but beautiful in the summer with wildflowers everywhere you look. From every window you can see acres and acres of "quaking" Aspen trees. They are so beautiful. Their color is so soft and pleasing to the eye. The cool mountain air was such a relief since we had just left a heat wave at home that had lasted about 10 days before we left.
The elevation was about 9000 feet and the views were gorgeous. Every bedroom had a deck that overlooked the mountains and the sky was a cornflower blue with large white puffy clouds.
Your mountain theme has brought back some great memories. Now - back to the wine cellar


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 9:23 PM, August 26th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have decided that I need to finish this book on abusive relationships. I'm positive I'm still in one and I need to get out.

Weepy - that is one of the strongest and most refreshing statements I think I have ever heard from you. You are not asking why he won't change. You are not thinking about what book you can read to make the marriage work. You are looking at your situation and deciding to take care of yourself. You NEED to do that.

He says... "If I go out and buy a house and put it in my name and we split up, it's mine." I told him "No, if it was acquired during the M, then it is community property, no matter who's name it's in." Using HIS logic, I don't have to worry about the 401K. He NEVER contributed to that. The credit union accounts are in MY name. Guess they're mine too. I offered him signature authority after Dday, but he never did the paperwork. The $10k I took out of my IRA for my tummy tuck and sits in our joint account is mine too. And I can argue that this house was mine first too. It was in my name for about a year until we refinanced because he couldn't get approved for a loan, his credit was that bad.

I would be very careful with this statement as I am pretty sure he would turn around to suit him if you were to proceed to D. I know you have a good record of your assets. I would try to keep as much as possible in your name only. If you can't, you need to protect yourself because, unfortunately, infidelity alone does not hold water in asset splits in divorce cases. I have learned (on this site) that if you have sex with your H after dday, it is considered "forgiveness" in some states under the law.


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 9:29 PM, August 26th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I know the type of road. When I was young, we went to Cripple Creek, CO. One side of the road was a drop-off that made you want to gag. The other was a rock wall. I was too young to understand the danger. My sisters were screaming!!!

I have tuckered myself out designing our new digs and need to retire. Am I the only one on EDT with kids who are up early?

Can I pour you a glass of wine before I retire?


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
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