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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: WS Questions for BS's
neverendinghurt
♀ Member
Member # 15859
Default  Posted: 6:55 PM, July 14th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

For cherrytomato. I am BW not a BH, I hope you don't mind me replying.

Although on a rational level, I KNOW that his infidelity was not about me or even our marriage, it feels very personal. It hurts ME.

Think of kids that are bullied at school, the problem lies with the bullies, not the bullied, but it is the bullied that is the victim, that feels the pain, that goes through all of the hurt and self doubt.

It will take lots of time, and a lot of patience and understanding from you to help your husband through this, a lot of reassurance, not just telling him the same thing (it wan't about you), but showing him, in every way that you can think of, that you love him, that he is the one that you want to be with.


The life of every man is a diary in which he means to write one story, and writes another; and his humblest hour is when he compares the volume as it is with what he vowed to make it.
James M. Barrie

Posts: 26032 | Registered: Aug 2007 | From: Seattle
Cherry Tomato
♀ Member
Member # 19255
Default  Posted: 7:12 AM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks everyone who responded. BH will not go to IC or MC so that's out of the question. Right now, his mindset is "Screw all that psycho-babble. I'm tired of hearing that you needed validation, blah, blah, blah. I get all that and I understand. Bottom line...you f*cked another man at the same time you were f*cking me, you lied about it, and now I'm supposed to accept it and move on. How am I supposed to do this?" He is absolutely overcome with anger and pain. Last night was one of the worst nights we've had in a long time. He keeps threatening D cuz he sees no way of dealing with this. In his mind, if we separate, he no longer has to deal. Truth is, he will but he can do it without me.

I feel so lost...I have shown him that I'm committed to him and our family, but it's not enough. When I ask what I can do to help him he says either "Shoot me in the head" or "Turn back time and make it never to have happened". Is there anything else I can do for him?


FWW/FBW(me)-41; FBH/FWH(him)-42; DDay 12/25/07; M 15 yrs, 1 DD - 11
Separated 8/6/08; H moved back home 1/6/09; In R 4/24/09
"You and I’ll ride tonight till the past is out of sight. We don't have to look back now." ----Puddle of Mudd

Posts: 1128 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: Wonderful New Happy Place
wincing_at_light
♂ Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 7:24 AM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hon, I'm almost two years out and I spend much of my time in the headspace your husband is in.

And I do all the reading, the psycho-babble, the work on myself -- it's my FWW who says it's all bullshit.

The fact is that he's going to feel like that until he works through it...and he's not going to work through it, regardless of what you say or do, until he wants to.

I honestly believe that. A remorseful WS can move mountains, hang the stars in the sky, solve world hunger...all of it, to show their BS their commitment and love, and it won't speed the BS's healing one iota.

You can set it back, slow it down, retard the process by doing the *wrong* things (mostly because it increases the BS's natural intransigence and desire to hold onto the pain as a protective mechanism), but you can't hurry it along. You can't help him decide to heal. That's all on his shoulders.

[This message edited by wincing_at_light at 7:25 AM, July 15th (Tuesday)]


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 7:32 AM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

CT - I'm confused. I read your profile and I saw that your H was cheating on-line and sending nude photos of himself, ended it, discovered your A and then started his own. Why is he letting you bear all of the guilt here?
I am also confused as to why you feel you should carry the burden of guilt alone when it seems you have both made terrible choices yet it seems only you are feeling remorseful.
Has your H acknowledged his part in all of this? Does he understand how hurtful his actions have been. I am in no way suggesting that this justifies your A or that your actions justify his. I just don't understand why he is "casting the first stone" so to speak.
As far as what I have needed as a BW, I agree with the others that consistency, patience and tenderness and affection are the requirements for getting me to the place where I am able to work toward R.
Thinking of you and sending you hugs.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
wincing_at_light
♂ Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 7:38 AM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Good point, fnf. CT's husband has no incentive to work on healing himself, because right now he gets to justify his own A *and* make his wife miserable in the process.

You're hooked on your own guilt, so he can be reasonably confident that you're not going anywhere, so he can take all the time and shovel out all the shit he wants while he "decides what he is going to do".

Listen to me, CT: He gave up the moral high ground when he chose to have a retaliatory affair. Don't let him lord it over your head. It isn't your fault that he didn't think through the consequences before embarking on his own stupid, KWIM?


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 8:25 AM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My H always used this expression, "The best defense is a strong offense." I think this is what your H is doing. He is shifting the burden of guilt onto you and has cleverly covered up his own culpability in all of this. I think this may be the major reason why he refuses to go to C'ing. He knows that he will be called out on this and likes to keep you in your state of remorse while denying any wrongdoing of his own. I have to tell you, I would not let him get away with this.
Again, I am in no way justifying your A following his on-line behavior but he has his own sins to answer for and by keeping you in this guilt-ridden place, he has convinced himself and you that you are the only responsible party. This is total bullshit, IMHO.
Let me just say that there are many, many BS's on this site and I'll just bet that the % who have a revenge A is very slim indeed. We, as BS's, work very hard toward R and a revenge A is no way to succeed!
ETA: For the record the following statement by your H is total bullshit IMHO and serves him in keeping you in a constant state of guilt and shame: "He says he only did it as a result of my affair and never would have otherwise. I believe him about that."
Don't believe this, CT. If this were true, why was he the one who was sending nude photos of himself to some stranger on-line BEFORE your A?

[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 8:32 AM, July 15th (Tuesday)]


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
Cherry Tomato
♀ Member
Member # 19255
Default  Posted: 9:44 AM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wincing/Forgive, I know that I have let my H place all the blame on me. This is one of my biggest struggles. I don't think he would have ever cheated with the psycho nurse if I hadn't had an A. I DO believe this. As for the on-line scenario, he does not agree this was an A. He did take responsibility for this early on, but he does not see this as betrayal of our wedding vows. Right or wrong that's how he sees it. I see it now as the on-line A that it was plain and simple.

I know that I can do nothing more to help him than I'm doing right now. He has to want to heal and it doesn't appear that he does and is guilting me into taking all the responsibility. I know that I have hurt him SO DEEPLY by many of the things I did during my A...it is so very painful for me to even think about. He is still in shock I think that all this is real - it's really happening to US. We were the perfect couple with the perfect life. I want to help him, but maybe right now he just needs a little space. And maybe I do too.


FWW/FBW(me)-41; FBH/FWH(him)-42; DDay 12/25/07; M 15 yrs, 1 DD - 11
Separated 8/6/08; H moved back home 1/6/09; In R 4/24/09
"You and I’ll ride tonight till the past is out of sight. We don't have to look back now." ----Puddle of Mudd

Posts: 1128 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: Wonderful New Happy Place
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 9:53 AM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I know that I have let my H place all the blame on me. This is one of my biggest struggles.

CT - I'm glad you have an IC'ing session this week. I do hope you will work with your C on the quote above. If you can find out why you are allowing this and work to change the dynamics in your M, possibly your H will start to see that he has his own sins to account for and not make this all about your A.
Also, I absolutely believe that sending nude photos of yourself to someone, not to mention what kind of communications they were conducting during this time, is a blatant form of infidelity and an absolute betrayal of your M vows. Just because he doesn't agree doesn't make it so.
(((CT)))


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
pebbles
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Member # 13870
Default  Posted: 10:39 AM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Cherry Tomato

You are a BS and you do not have to tolerate his A. It doesn't matter who had the A first or who was found out first. What he did before discovering your A is also an A.

Do not stay in the marriage when there is an A going on. 180 him now so you can get your respect back. He's just using the discovery of your A to continue the same behavior he was already doing.


me: BS
Dday 7/23/05
This former rock has been blasted into a mound of pebbles.

Posts: 1283 | Registered: Mar 2007
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 11:05 AM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

CT - Pebbles said exactly what I was thinking - You are the BS now and a FWS - stress on FORMER! You are NC and have been since your d-day. Your H on the other hand is a CURRENT WS who is still keeping contact with the OW. Totally unacceptable.
I keep thinking about all the double standards in your relationship.
He expects you to go NC immediately and you do - yet he gets to continue contact.
He said, "Bottom line...you f*cked another man at the same time you were f*cking me" and acts wounded and enraged YET he started his A one year into yours and was f*ing another woman at the same time he was f*ing you.
He wants you to be remorseful, admit guilt, feel shame, take the blame for his A YET he shows no remorse for his A, admits no guilt and places all the blame on you for his behavior.
It is the classic double standard in our society where the men are praised and stroked by each other for womanizing while women are called whores for the very same behavior.
You are being punished daily it seems for your A and yet he is not being punished but instead justifies the unjustifiable.
Your H is pushing the double standard to the max, IMO and something needs to happen to change this dynamic. You must hold him accountable for his choice to have an A by continuing contact with this OW.
My H had an 8 year long-term A and it killed me. I have never known such hurt, pain and sadness in my life. Maybe using your H's logic, I am also entitled to my own A. I have been asked, Do you ever think about having an A? I will tell you in absolute terms there is no way in hell that I would do that. I want my M to work (crazy as this may seem) and there would be no way we could R if I were to engage in an A.
If your H wants the M to work, then he had better go NC immediately and start to show some remorse and compassion for your pain.

[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 11:22 AM, July 15th (Tuesday)]


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
HurtingInDenver
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Member # 15974
Default  Posted: 11:41 AM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You are being punished daily it seems for your A and yet he is not being punished but instead justifies the unjustifiable.
Your H is pushing the double standard to the max, IMO and something needs to happen to change this dynamic.

I agree 100%. Yes, you made a big mistake. But that doesn't give him a "get-out-of-jail-free" card.

You said you believe him that he wouldn't of had his A if you weren't already invloved in yours. Do you think this makes his A justified? If yes, then what if you weren't having an A and he just wasn't happy in the M? Does that justify his A? Of course not. Marriage isn't a tit-for-tat relationship. It's not about revenge or evening the score; it's about compassion and forgiveness.

Yes, he has a right to be angry and hurt and even maybe despise you for awhile. But he doesn't have the right to have a revenge A, and he doesn't have the right to hold this over your head for the rest of your life. That's not a marriage, that's servitude.

If you are feeling quilty about your A and that is why you are tolerating his behavior (continued A & unremorsefulness) just think about this fact: The folks who have posted to you here are all BHs! We've all thought some pretty bad things at some point or another about our WSs. Yet, we ALL are telling you that his revenge A and unremorsefulness is not OK.


I'm flat out spent, this woman she been driving me to tears
This woman so crazy, I swear I ain't going to touch another one for years -B.Dylan


Posts: 781 | Registered: Aug 2007
Cherry Tomato
♀ Member
Member # 19255
Default  Posted: 12:40 PM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Pebbles/Forgive/Hurting, thank you all for you comments. Yes, we both made terrible choices and I do think part of my H's problem is guilt, but he won't admit it. He does hold my A over my head and I have let him do this. I know I need to change this behaviour, but it's very hard at the same time I'm fighting to hold it all together. And I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle sometimes. He does have a double standard and no it's not right. It's just very hard for me to let him go when I know it's probably best for me. Being a mad-hatter truly sucks cuz you have both sets of emotions to try to manage. I cheated first so that (in his eyes) makes me the "bad guy" and the cause of it all. No he's not thinking rationally at all...I have a hard time doing this myself some days. I know what I need to do...just need the strength to do it.


FWW/FBW(me)-41; FBH/FWH(him)-42; DDay 12/25/07; M 15 yrs, 1 DD - 11
Separated 8/6/08; H moved back home 1/6/09; In R 4/24/09
"You and I’ll ride tonight till the past is out of sight. We don't have to look back now." ----Puddle of Mudd

Posts: 1128 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: Wonderful New Happy Place
HurtingInDenver
♂ Member
Member # 15974
Default  Posted: 2:14 PM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((((((CT))))))

I know it's hard trying to hold on and not legt go. Nobody here wanted to end up in this position. Eventually you'll have to lay down the guilt though and do what is healthiest for you and your kids.

Good luck and God bless.

(((((CT))))))


I'm flat out spent, this woman she been driving me to tears
This woman so crazy, I swear I ain't going to touch another one for years -B.Dylan


Posts: 781 | Registered: Aug 2007
capri
♀ Member
Member # 14940
Default  Posted: 11:08 PM, July 16th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

CT, seconding, thirding, fourthing what everyone else has said. And what he did first is WAYYY outside the bounds of marriage. Sending nude photos of yourself to another woman (and I bet he was lying to you about it) is cheating.


Me: free of the secrets and lies!!!
Divorced 10/2011

Posts: 4483 | Registered: Jun 2007
Meeko
♀ Member
Member # 19006
Sad  Posted: 9:34 AM, July 22nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am in desperate need of help…advice…

My BH and I are working hard at reconciling…it is what I want more than anything in the world….the past few days have been so tough….My BH tells me that he cant think of being with out me but doesn’t know if he can move forward. He feels like he is stuck….BH says he loves me more than anything but cant get past what I did (can't get away from the mind movies). I know that I hurt him so bad and I hate myself for doing that and wish everyday I could go back and change it all….

I am not sure what my question is….just looking for advice or insight that I can share with him. I know that it could very well be that he wont be able to recover from this and I will lose him….but I have to hold out hope that we can make it through this….that we are truly meant to be together….it is what I want so much….I am crying as I am writing this because I am so afraid….he feels so hopeless….I can’t nor will I allow myself to feel that….I love him too much to not try and fight…..


FWW (me)- 38
BS - 41
M - 14yrs
Kids - (2) DD - 5 DS - 11

D-Day 11-18-07
D-Day (2) 4-2-08 (finally told the full story)

Forgiveness does not change the past, but it does enlarge the future. ~Paul Boese


Posts: 112 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: Land of the Mouse
Calon Lan
♂ Member
Member # 19684
Default  Posted: 10:58 AM, July 22nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Meeko. I remember telling my FWW that I couldn’t live without her but I couldn’t live with what she’d done either. This sounds like where your H is now. I realised it was an impossible place for me to be, stuck between those two truths. I had to choose.

My FWW has done this twice now but the first time she didn’t get caught, now she has seen the devestation she has caused I don’t think she will do it again. But she is on her last chance now.

I love my FWW very much. I want her in my life so much. After d-day I hated myself for that, I felt that my need for her was taking away my self respect. I felt I should man-up and make her take the full consequences of her actions.

Well, after about three or four months I came to a point where I realised I was prepared to kick her out. I didn’t want to, but I had come to a point where I realised I could. I was no longer needing her, I had some control back. I could now make choices. And I have made choices.

I’ve been betrayed before, by my first serious girlfriend and by my second, who was also my fiancée. So I no longer believe in fairy tales. I could end this marriage, I could look for that special girl who will treasure me and always be faithful. But why bother? Experience has taught me that bad things happen. Why take a chance on starting again, it could happen to me again in ten years in another relationship.

Would I love another woman more than my FWW? No.
Will the scars and the pain go away if I leave my FWW? No.
Will my kids benefit from having a part time dad? No.
Will my FWW do this to me again? There are no guarantees, but I don’t think so.

For me, the logical thing to do is to stay, to put the past in the past and build a better future. It is right for me. It’s damn hard work, but it’s right for me.

As a BS we have horrible choices to make. We shouldn’t be I n a position where we have to make these choices but we are where we are.

My choice is to stay with the woman I love. I feel there is no one more perfect for me than my FWW and no one more perfect for her than me. So I hope we will live together always. Albeit with our pain and our scars.

[This message edited by Calon Lan at 11:00 AM, July 22nd (Tuesday)]


Together 22 years married 15, two wonderful sons.
Me - 47, Wife - 41, two affairs with same OM. Who knows what else.
d day 24/01/2008


Posts: 431 | Registered: May 2008 | From: UK
wifehad5
♂ Moderator
Member # 15162
Default  Posted: 11:09 AM, July 22nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Meeko,

I think this is something that a lot of BS's go through. I know I did. All you can do is be there for him. Ask him what he needs from you. If he can't answer, just keep doing what you can.

For me it would play out with a lot of arguing in my head. She'd tell me she loved me, and I would instantly think of some smartass comment about how she had a funny way of showing it, etc.

Just hold on, help him when you can, and continue to work on yourself


FBH - 42
FWW - 43 (BrokenRoad)
2 kids 7&12

The people you do your life with shape the life you live


Posts: 35380 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Michigan
unarmbears
♀ Member
Member # 7480
Default  Posted: 12:03 PM, July 22nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Meeko, It's been over 3 years since my fWH and my last d-day. I know I felt much the same way your H did for about a year. Hated what he did, loved him, didn't know if I could live with him.

I think the key is consistency and commitment.

Eventually your BS will have to come to some sort of acceptance that "yes, this did happen" and denying it does not make you feel any better.

This is all part of the grieving process. First we grieve the loss of the marriage and fear the loss of the WS. When those fears subside (hardworking WS in R) then it is the fear that we may not be able to accept this person back after what they have done.

This healing process takes several years, and the survival of the marriage is kind of in the BS hands for a while there.

It really has only been 3 months since the full truth, so he will be reeling for a while longer, probably up to a year, maybe more.


FBS-Me, 60
FWH-Him, 55
2 Sons 25 and 30
2 Daughters 28, 24 And 3 darling grandchildren!
"Love is an impulsive act, it's free. It's the story we tell about it afterward that's our poverty." Byron Katie

Posts: 4886 | Registered: Jun 2005 | From: From where the trees lean east...
acreswild
♂ Member
Member # 19371
Default  Posted: 12:10 PM, July 22nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Meeko...

Calonlan hits the nail right on the head.,. and

For me it would play out with a lot of arguing in my head. She'd tell me she loved me, and I would instantly think of some smartass comment about how she had a funny way of showing it, etc.


I even said that WW should be glad that I didnt love her in the same way....

I would never have imagined how hard this is and how devastated I feel..Your H is likley in the very same place...so be truthful, and supportive.. dont take his current pain lightly... it is an enormous burden... make it lighter in any way you can... good luck


BS-Me-59
WW- Her-59
Married 36 years
PA/EA/?A...depends on definition....
She finally admitted an old 3-4 year affair ( over 25 years ago) followed by a very sporadic on-again off-again 8 year PA followed by lengthy EA that would likely still be

Posts: 409 | Registered: May 2008 | From: Chicago
Meeko
♀ Member
Member # 19006
Default  Posted: 12:18 PM, July 22nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you for all of your responses….I am not taking this lightly…I am fighting with everything I got and more. I do not nor expect him to just hurry up and recover from this…I know that it is going to take time….I just get worried that he wont want to take the time….I tell him that we have to just go day by day…not to look to far into the future because it can be overwhelming. I also try and point out how far we have come and that what he is feeling is normal….that everything is still very raw and that we are going to have good days and bad days….there are definitely more good ones then bad ones now.


FWW (me)- 38
BS - 41
M - 14yrs
Kids - (2) DD - 5 DS - 11

D-Day 11-18-07
D-Day (2) 4-2-08 (finally told the full story)

Forgiveness does not change the past, but it does enlarge the future. ~Paul Boese


Posts: 112 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: Land of the Mouse
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