I never left my BW for the xMOW. Hopefully others can chime in here for you. But I will say that while in the fog, there is a powerful deception that goes on in the mind of a WS. Mine was a complete infatuation that masked any sense of reality. I can understand how, unless NC is established and steps are taken by the WS to heal, someone can see the world in this warped a perspective.
D-day 12/06/07,day b4 b-day admitted 2 wk EA.
Success is failure turned inside out.
"Illusion never changed into something real." Torn - Natalie Imbrulia.
Divored n Feb 09
I understand English, but I can't compute this...
My background is posted on the Markom "just found out" thread. This is a catch-phrase of my WS. I love her dearly, and it pains me to hear it, but I endeavor to know what it means.
When I asked her whether she'd seen other men because she wanted to be with them, she replied that she hadn't "seen" any other men, she had just slept with with them, and she "can't say no"
This is difficult to bear. Does anybody else have any experience with this either way? I do not judge, not even her, I am just trying to understand.
Are you disgusted with you actions at all or do you not even give it a second thought and chalk it up to "just" something that happened. It is what it is type thing.
Um, disgusted. You cant be remorseful and undertake any sort of personal rebuilding if you just chalk it up to "just" something that happened. It is NEVER what it is. It is ALWAYS more.
Also, do you think of "everything" you did as a separate event, or do you bundle all the events of the affair as a whole?
Now this is interesting. I do tend to bundle it all in my mind as that "dark pit of evilness". Everything I did, said, thought, during the 3 month A and the 6 weeks of foggy bullshit, was wrong, was evil, was terrible. I have struggled with getting frustrated because Mr.V wanted to talk about each thing I said, every action, during this time. I wanted to say..I was a complete shithead and selfish bitch for the entire time.
I think I just had a lightbulb moment. I hope I helped you too.
Me, you, the dog and cat....the rest are details.
When the WS says "I can't say no," what does that mean?
Sounds like a weak excuse for really shitty boundaries and a desperate need for the attention.
She CAN say no. She is choosing not to.
The real issue is, why is she choosing not to.
Thats where IC comes in. Does she have any history of sexual abuse in her past? dunno, just reaching here.
One thing though, WS's say the craziest, backassward, stupid things when they are still in fantasy land. I still shudder at the things I told my poor H when I had just been found out.
Your wife is being lazy. Saying that is her way of avoiding the real hard work. Do NOT accept that. Tell her you think its total bullshit.
She needs help to discover what she really means when she said that.
How does a WS handle the shame.
Thats a great question. I dont think handle is quite the right word perhaps? More like, live with. Its always there, once you see it with clarity, it follows you around. I too had my work greatly affected by my actions, and then by my inability to function properly. I had to take a few months off on leave, during which I wrestled with my demons.
It sucks. To go to work everyday and be reminded of my shitty choices. To know that my parents, my friends, his friends, his parents, family...they all know. I dont know what they think, and truthfully Im scared that they dont see me or know me well enough to know that I am greater than the sum of those actions.
How did I handle the shame?
I had to be okay being me. Thats what I think your H is missing. He is not okay being himself.
I had to accept that this is who I am. Else what was my choice? jump off the cliff.
I chose life. I chose me. Then, I chose to be the "me" I could be proud of.
And I am proud of me.
Yes, boundaries are totally shot. Yes, there is a fundamental ability to make a choice.
But at least for some of us, the A was an addiction to something we unhealthily used to fill a perceived unmet need. My read would be that in this case, there was some amount of ego stroking or "feel good" response that fueled the addiction. Just like an alcoholic has a choice to drink or not and makes the wrong choice based on their addiction, a WS can have the same reaction as well.
He says, he never intended leaving his family, never told OW he would leave us, was feeling disconnected from me and found himself more comfortable with her. He could talk with her about anything, where conversation with me had become stilted, uneasy and generally just family maintenance oriented without the fun friendly banter.
On D-day he stopped the PA immediately, but continued with the EA (unknown to me) for several more months. All the while he says he was trying to get her out of his life, but because she is such a 'great friend' and they 'get along so well' it has been so hard to make the final break because she 'hasn't done anything wrong to make me hate her and cut her off like that'.
He assures me now that they have been completely NC for about 3 months, and he has no desire or intention of ever contacting her again. My question to him is 'what will you do if she contacts you?'. I tell him that I need to know if she is trying to get back into his life. He says if she calls, he won't be mean to her and tell her **** off because she doesn't deserve to be treated like that. He says he will make it clear to her that they have nothing more to say to each other, that he is committed to R with me, and he will wish her well and send her on her way.
Now, if this happens, he says he does not want to tell me he has heard from her because I will get upset over something he believes is 'nothing'. He wants to deal with it his way. He thinks I will question him on every aspect of their conversation (of course I will), and make it into a big issue. I tell him the 'big issue' will come from me finding out he has heard from her and NOT told me. That the whole 'secrecy' of their relationship is where the danger of re-ignition lays. I asked him 'So, you are telling me that you will not contact her, but if she contacts you, you will not tell me. How am I supposed to move on with that hanging in the air like that? You put more importance in not upsetting you best f***ing friend, than your wife.'
Aside from this issue, he is doing everything he can working on R, being accountable for his whereabouts, giving me his phone, always checks his phone messages on loud speaker in front of me, asking me or the kids along whenever he has to go out somewhere, engaging more with us and having family fun, date nights with me, lots of deep discussions about us. He is still suffering depression with a lot of guilt and self-hatred over this whole situation, but he really is doing a lot to reconnect with me.
I really don't even know if I have a question here, I'm just so confused with these mixed messages. He says he wants me, not her - he says he has a future with me, not her - he says he wants more children and can only imagine that with me, not her - he says he loves me, not her - he says he has stayed because he has never wanted to leave me, and never wanted to go to her - the list goes on.
Am I stressing too much about this 'one little issue', when everything else seems to be right? Is there any way the WS can tell the BS that NC has been broken by OW, and deal with it 'without being mean to OW and without upsetting BS?' Sorry for rambling.
Am I stressing too much about this 'one little issue'
No, because it's not a "little issue". There's a reason that NC letter are written in such cold and direct language. It's not to treat the OP with disrespect (although their part in the A shows complete disrespect to the BS). It's to make a hard, fast and clean break from the A and focus on the M. Anything shy of that in an attempt to "soften the blow" prolongs the a WS's fog and their ability to see clearly.
she doesn't deserve to be treated like that.
My very direct question to your WS would be do you deserve to be treated less caringly that the OP? Because this is not a have it both ways sort of thing. By acting the way he says he will, he may be treating his OW kindly but he is treating you cruelly in the process. If he honestly believe in your M, in R and loves you deeply, he will place how he treats you in much higher regard than he does the OW.
Now, if this happens, he says he does not want to tell me he has heard from her because I will get upset over something he believes is 'nothing'.
So it's more critical to him to avoid the conflict that may arise if OW breaks NC than avoiding lying to you? And he can couch it however he wants - not telling you about a breach of NC is lying. Continue to let him know that the lies and deceit cut far more deeply than the contact itself.
We recently had a situation like this surface. xMOW had been NC for 15 months, and then broke it with an email to my work account. My actions? I showed it to my BW, let her ask me what I was going to do, told her I was going to delete it with no response and did so in front of her. Yes, it created some strain. But far less conflict than had I tried to handle it on my own, and my BW discovered it later.
In your shoes, I would insist on an NC letter going out (the standard direct, unemotional kind talked about here and elsewhere). Then, I would establish the "ground rules". A standard response in the event OW breaches NC - something like "There is nothing more to say between us" and hang up the phone, or show you the email then delete it in your presence. And agree that in the event of a phone call when you are not present, he is to tell you, to reflect the response given and allow the discussion to take place then rather than later on.
Did any of you WSs have, or do you know of any WSs on your forum, who were chronic serial cheaters (his were almost exclusively ONS-type, though it might be a 2-or-3NS...in other words, not emotional involvement, if that matters a whit) who went on to successfully reconcile (and obviously, reform)? When I look at my WH's past, it seems incredibly bleak. Like long odds.
However, I DO definitely see him digging in and really engaging with an IC for the first time ever (he's been going for 6 months now, religiously); he also just recently got dx'd with ADD which our MCs keep stressing to me plays a role with his lack of impulse control. In addition, he's doing everything we all here on SI suggest: IC, MC, full disclosure, transparency, being there for me, etc. etc.
I am struggling terribly with my new reality, but I DO want to reconcile if there's a snowball's chance in hell of being able to. I'm just so scared. Anyone got an "it's possible" story they can give me hope with?
I have said all those things to him, and I'm sure he understands (or tries to) my side. I really think he is just trying to avoid any more conflict or upsetting anyone further. He sees it as a no-win situation for him.
I did bring this up in MC and our useless counsellor did nothing to support me on this and just told me I had to decide if I would trust him or not because I can't spend the rest of my life trying to control him. I don't want to control him, I just want his unwavering committment.
Anyhow, H has returned to IC recently and we are looking for a new MC, so I will certainly be broaching this subject again.
On a brighter note, he was getting ready this morning to go to a meeting in the same part of town where OW works, and I said 'the last thing I need is you running into her in the street'. He said 'don't worry, I don't want to come face to face with her either. If I see anyone that looks vaguely like her I'll be crossing the street and walking the other way'. He really seemed sickened at the possibility of running into her.
I know I have to make him understand that not telling me results in more damage, not less damage. Having said that, there have been times where OW has broken NC by sending a text message. H has shown me the unopened message and let me open it. He could easily have just hidden these messages from me. I think I have handled them quite well so he shouldn't be afraid of telling me in the future.
I don't want to send NC letter now because it has been a few months since last contact, but I'll certainly whip it out if she pops up again.
H is on an 'absolute honesty and truthfulness' quest at the moment, which has really shown through in many other aspects of our discussions and he has disclosed things to me which I know were painful for him to say and for me to hear, so I know he is trying to be transparent in everything with me now, but I think he also has his own little subclause of 'tell the truth or tell nothing'. That's the final part we have to break through, and seems to be some remnants of the whole 'smoke and mirrors' life he was leading for years.
If a WS has viagra in desk at work, is it possible it is there because:
A. I was checking medical information:
1. "I filled the rx to read the medical info to see if it conflicted with my new blood pressure meds" (and why not just ask pharmacist?).
2. I was reading the medical info and someone walked in and I slipped bottle into my sdesk (then why was the med info in his briefcase and RX left at work?).
B. "I actually use viagra to masturbate to porn" (this after i found playboy mags in a binder in his office locker).
He also initially lied about his activities on day he filled RX. He did not need to fill RX: we had at least 20 pills at home.
So.. my questions are:
1. do men use viagra to masturbate to porn?
2. Is there any reason other than 1 above that a man would fill a viagra rx when he has same at home and does not use with BW?
Thank you. I have asked this on BS type threads and BS's all read this one way.
After i found it I inisted on being invited to his IC. The IC ignored anything other than trying to make WH feel emotionally sound and that masturbation is normal for men (at WORK? with VIAGRA?). <BTW I am nt prudish, have nothing against masturabation or non violent porn, as long as it doesn't take the place of marital intimacy - unfortuantely his and his affairs seem to...>.
Thank you for your help.
it's all about James Hunter, now ;)
And here's the 180 link:
One, did any of you feel the same way about your A?
Two, I am afraid he is telling himself this so his feelings for her wont get in our way of R. How hard was it for any of you to get over the feelings you had for your OP. I know the feelings had during the A are strong and exciting, but did they change after D-Day?
Question for FWH: did you spend your BW's birthday or Valentine's Day or your wedding anniversary or any other family/couples day with OW to assure her that she was more important and beloved than your BW? Did she ask you to, or contrive this?
[This message edited by hissadwife at 9:07 AM, October 9th (Thursday)]
If I was a WW I woudl be overwhelmed.
is there any way to separate out this thread by tiopic and have separate topic lines on a forum called "BS questions for WS?" (ther could beopposite forum as well). excuse me if I am missing such forums already here on SI.
BS still hoping for an answer from WHs regarding viagra use.
3 years out from Dday, at IC last night she asked me if my H feels like he's redeemed himself or does he still feel like a POS. I couldn't answer her. Because I don't know.
Q: Does living/behaving like you should have all along mean you've buried it? Processed it and accepted it? Or do you still feel like a POS at times? Does your BS know you?
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda
Is it truly possible to come out of the fog in an instant and just be done with the A "just like that". My WH had 6 month EA that went PA twice in that 6 month time. Said he only saw her once or twice a week for 30 minutes at a time maximum - didn't talk on the phone at all - did a little texting (I have the records, so I know). WH was caught by MOW's H findng some text messages. MOW's H made her come to our home and tell me to my face - my WH had no idea this was going to happen. My WH told me right there in our living room, with MOW and her H standing there that he didn't love her, he loved me, he was glad he got caught and he wanted nothing more to do with her, contact was over and he wanted to make his M with me work. He has been N/C since that day, told me about the two times MOW tried to make contact, totally transparent and remourseful. Says he doesn't miss her at all - doesn't think about her. Only thinks about saving his M and is happy with how our R has been going - we're closer, we talk more, etc. Can he really been jolted out of the fog like that and really not have any thoughts or feelings about MOW!